12.5:1 vs. 11:1 440 kits

[Drummit77]

Hey all. New to the site and 4 strokes. Picked up a '00 400ex w/440 kit in it last year. Has stage 2 cam, port work on the head, full DMC Alien exhaust, rev limiter fixed, airbox delete, choke delete....you get the idea. Ran pretty decent. Started to smoke a little on startup and then the starter clutch crapped out. Sooo...while I've got it down I decided to find out what the motor actually had going on internally. Turns out the guy was honest about the work that was done At any rate...the cylinder crosshatch is pretty well gone and the combustion chamber is pretty caked up. I think the head gasket had something to do with the deposits as it had some leakage going on. The sleeve still looks pretty decent aside from the average wear. So my questions are:

1) deglaze the cylinder w/ a ball hone and throw in a new piston kit?

2) Buy a whole new sleeve and have it installed and then throw in the piston kit?

3) Either way...is Wiseco just as good as J&E for the 440's and do I want the 11:1 or the 12.5:1? Will there REALLY be a difference for a guy who rides mostly woods and some small moto tracks in the 12.5 kit? BTW--yes, the head studs are heli-coiled. I have heard issues with the studs pulling out on the 12.5:1 kits.

Any help from you guys that know would be awesome. I really don't have the funds to screw up and do things over and over. :) ALSO! Airboxes?? Mine doesn't exist....sounds like a REALLY bad idea to me. I was looking at the aluminum race boxes that mount the battery and all inside....are they worth the cost vs. a stock airbox with a breather lid? Thanks again!!

Chris

[drew416ex]

I have a 12.5:1 and helicoiled studs, and they have held up fine. Besides, since they are helicoiled, you cant put hd studs in. You would have to get a new cylinder. I wouldnt just hone the cylinder, I would get the next size piston. wiseco makes some that are like 89.25 and 89.5mm i think. The piston to cylinder clearance is .002", with it being worn and then honing it, it would be well beyond that. As far as compression, there will be more torque with the 12.5:1 but you would have to run race gas. As far as brand, they are both good. CP pistons are also very good.

[drew416ex]

Also forgot to say that unless they have changed it, the 11:1 wiseco isnt a true 11:1, you would have to remove the base gasket to get it there.

[CSR400EX]

hey i see you are from franklin, thats cool

but i had a 11:1 Wiseco 440 kit in my old 400, and even with the stock exhaust it pulled hard everywhere. with a full exhaust, id say it would pull almost as hard as my new 450 does. and with a 11:1, you wont have to buy race fuel which is pricey anymore.

[Drummit77]

I'm gonna take the cylinder and head down to the shop today to see what they think of it. I'd love to just oversize the bore a little more...looks like there's plenty of sleeve there to work with so I don't know why not...but I didn't find any oversized pistons anywhere...that's why I thought maybe I'd have to throw the sleeve and get a new one. That would be sweet if I can just pop it over a little bit!

As far as the price of race gas....I'm not that concerned about it....I was thinking I'd get 105 or 110 octane and mix it 50/50 with 94 octane. Always ran that in my Banshee and dirt bikes and never had any problems. Bad idea?

On the base gasket issue...I noticed that someplace else on the site. They said run a Cometic 3 piece head or XR400 head and then glue the base to the bottom end. Sound logic. Had a few questions there too.

1) XR400 stock gasket or XR440 kit gasket?

2) I know you have to do it on the 11:1 kits or it actually produces 9.5:1 or something in that area. What do you all think of running the 12.5:1 kit with no base gasket? Are you supposed too? If not then would going with out it hurt anything? Is there valve interference or head gasket issues? I also don't want to tear this thing down every year to replace worn parts so that's also an issue. I like to build em and keep em together for a few years. :)

3) Which sealer was it that you use to glue the base area? I know it was Honda something....Same stuff you use on bottom end cases after you split them? Like YamaBond?

4) My cam is engraved with some sort of makers mark. CHT 8 or something to that effect....anyone know maker or stage on that guy? It's a good part but if it's a stage 1 or something mild I'd rather change it out now. Stage 2 enough for this mill or do they make something that would be better suited?

Thanks guys! BTW--CSR400EX from Middletown--We'll have to hook up and go for a ride sometime. I live like 90 seconds from the Hummer plant so I tend to hit it after work here and there. Nothin special but still a good time.

Chris

[drew416ex]

If you run the 12.5:1 I would go ahead and run strait 110 just to be safe. And if you run the big web cam, there will be valve clearance issuse that you will have to take car of. If you try to run no base gasket on the 12.5, just check clearances with any cam you run to be safe. When i ran no base gasket, i just used silicone, but you have to be very carefull and dont use much so you dont clog up an oil passage.

[F-16Guy]

You definitely want to run the 89mm XR440 gasket set, and if you run the 11:1 piston, you may want to see if if you can have the cylinder decked so that you have zero deck height (piston flush with top of cylinder at TDC), or you can try to run no base gasket, but like drew416ex said, be careful with the amount of sealant used so that you don't block the oil passage.
If you run the 12.5:1, you may call Cometic and see if they have a gasket set with a thicker head gasket that will bring the compression down a little, that way you might be able to run pump gas. I guess it's really up to you depending on what kind of gas you want to run and how much machine work you want to do, but if it were me, I'd have the cylinder decked and go with the 11:1 piston.

[XXXRACER165]

I run a 12.5:1 440 with a regular base gasket and run fine on 92 premium. Been runnin' it that way for 4 years now. When it was time for a rebuild, I would throw some new rings in and nikasil plate the cylinder.

[Drummit77]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Just talked to Colby at C&D. He was REALLY helpful and knowledgeable about what I had going on....Not that you guys are morons or anything. :) Not sayin that, just wanted to share what I learned from about 10 minutes on the phone with the fella.

He actually carries a 440 overbore sized piston in a few different sizes so I'll be able to bore the sleeve a bit and run the cylinder I have...mucho bueno! I don't know why they don't advertise these things! I've been online since this morning trying to find something like that and NOBODY has any clue about them. I can't be the only guy looking for one can I??

He also suggested a few things for the head that I hadn't thought of (seals and valve job) sighting the valve seals as a problem area for these bikes after they get some hours.

The compression issue is a decided deal because the oversized pistons only come in 11.5:1. That solves that. :) He did have some recommendations for gaskets and I didn't ask about running this kit without a base gasket...but I'm calling him back this afternoon to place my order after I can find someone to mic the sleeve to see how far I need to take the bore to clean it up.

I'll keep ya posted on how things are going with it but I'm betting once the pig goes back together she'll be running MUCH better.

ALSO! That unidentified cam is most likely an older S2 HotCam. Which is getting replaced because the spline system they used to use allows a lot of slop...which mine suffers from. It's never as easy as you hope it will be, is it? Oh well...it'll be money well spent if she gets me home everytime!

Chris

[F-16Guy]

Good find on the older HotCams cam!! If that gear starts to walk around on the splines, it can get expensive pretty quickly. Good luck with the rebuild!:muscle:

[CSR400EX]

yea thats sounds great. i know some people that ride over there sometimes. i have always wanted to go check it out. when you get that thing runnin', i wanna see what a 440 would do against a 450R:D

[Drummit77]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
Good find on the older HotCams cam!! If that gear starts to walk around on the splines, it can get expensive pretty quickly. Good luck with the rebuild!:muscle:

Unfortunately it's already walked around a little. :( Sending everything to Colby this week to have it checked out. REALLY hoping that the timing chain is ok....doesn't appear to have any issues but there is some wear to the galley that it runs through in the cylinder. Would be my luck to have to tear apart a perfectly good bottom end for the timing chain. We'll see what happens.....anyone know how to check them for stretch or do I have to wait till I get the topend back together to check the slack? Thanks for the moral support if nothing else guys! :)

[Drummit77]

Originally posted by CSR400EX
yea thats sounds great. i know some people that ride over there sometimes. i have always wanted to go check it out. when you get that thing runnin', i wanna see what a 440 would do against a 450R:D

We've actually got a pretty snazzy dragstrip over there...:) I'll get some friends together to meet us when we go. Got a buddy with a stroked Raptor and a few smokin banshees. Fat Jerry's got a SCREAMIN 450R....big bore kit and the whole she-bang. The thing is stupid. My 10 yr. old boy'll run ya on his stock 250ex. :) Now THERE'S a race. LOL!

Chris

[CSR400EX]

hmmmm... what color is the raptor????? and same on the banshee's. i know some people that live in franklin

[Drummit77]

The Banshee is blue....080 over, DMC exhaust...all kindsa goodies. I've never seen it lose a drag race. He just sold it...not sure who to. Guy that had it's Ben...he's got the Raptor now. Haven't actually seen the Raptor run yet but he seems to love it already.

Talked to the guy that originally built my bike this evening and found out some cool stuff. Head is decked, ported, and has stiffer springs. The crank and rod are Wiseco. It had factory spec gaskets on the head and cylinder and an 11:1 Wiseco piston. So...if what I'm reading is correct, my bike was actually running somewhere around 9.5:1, maybe 10:1 compression and had a cam issue AND a leaking head gasket when I tore it down. With some careful gasket choices I should be able to get the thumper up around the 11.75:1 or higher I think. That would be nice!

Chris

[blue_ex_rider]

I am looking at getting a 12.5 to 1 piston and was wondering what everyone thought was the best pistion to go with. I have heard CP is really good and that JE makes a good one but I was jsut going to get your pions first.

[Drummit77]

Not sure who makes the "best". But the Wiseco I took out of my bike had loads of hours on it and 3-4 yrs. on the build. The wear on the piston was minimal. I've used their pistons many times in two-stroke applications and have always been happy.

On a personal note, I emailed all the big piston manufacturers in regards to an oversized 440 kit (440 big bore with a .010-.020 overbore) Most responded, some didn't. Wiseco however, went WAY beyond. Tom gave me a few options that I hadn't considered, AND gave me phone numbers. The part that really stunned me is that he mentioned that he thought J&E made a 89.5 millimeter piston for the 440 (.020 over) AND GAVE ME THEIR PHONE NUMBER!!!! Wiseco gets my vote because of that level of personal service.

Chris

[CSR400EX]

hahaha, i know Ben. that raptor is FAST!!!!! if second gear wasnt gone, lol. but i hope you get it running good.

[drew416ex]

Originally posted by blue_ex_rider
I am looking at getting a 12.5 to 1 piston and was wondering what everyone thought was the best pistion to go with. I have heard CP is really good and that JE makes a good one but I was jsut going to get your pions first.

Wiseco is a good piston, never had a problem. I just like JE and CP a littl better.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Drummit77
Wiseco however, went WAY beyond. Tom gave me a few options that I hadn't considered, AND gave me phone numbers. The part that really stunned me is that he mentioned that he thought J&E made a 89.5 millimeter piston for the 440 (.020 over) AND GAVE ME THEIR PHONE NUMBER!!!! Wiseco gets my vote because of that level of personal service.

Chris

Wiseco owns JE so either way they're getting your business.

[blue_ex_rider]

can you get a custoum pistion from either je or cp. I have been looking for info on them but cant find alot on thrm. Also can you tell a big difference from a 12.5 to 1 to a 13.1 to 1. I am running nitrous on my bike and some say I can go 12.5 and some say I can go 13 so I was wondering if there was abig difference in the 2.

[drew416ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Wiseco owns JE so either way they're getting your business.

Ive heard that, but i have found that my JE has a little bit tighter tolerances than the wiseco.

[drew416ex]

Originally posted by blue_ex_rider
can you get a custoum pistion from either je or cp. I have been looking for info on them but cant find alot on thrm. Also can you tell a big difference from a 12.5 to 1 to a 13.1 to 1. I am running nitrous on my bike and some say I can go 12.5 and some say I can go 13 so I was wondering if there was abig difference in the 2.

You can get a custom one, but it will cost you because to get one you have to order at least 4 at around $200 - $250 a piece. Not too sure about the nitrous. All i know is it tends to work better with higher compression

[Drummit77]

Originally posted by CSR400EX
hahaha, i know Ben. that raptor is FAST!!!!! if second gear wasnt gone, lol. but i hope you get it running good.

That'd be the one! I figured it had to be a scorcher to get him to part ways with that Banshee. That thing was mean. Anyway...small world yeah?

[Drummit77]

Originally posted by drew416ex
You can get a custom one, but it will cost you because to get one you have to order at least 4 at around $200 - $250 a piece. Not too sure about the nitrous. All i know is it tends to work better with higher compression

Got this in response from CP looking for the oversized 440 piston. I;m guessing the pricing to be fairly universal Hope this helps.....




Hello,



We can make a 12.5:1 compression, 89.5mm or 89.25mm bore piston no problem.

Unfortunately we don’t sell direct so if you wanted the piston made you would have to go to one of our distributors. The price for running just one piston is quite expensive- it would probably be around $350. Shop time right now is about 3 ½ weeks.



You’re other option would be to re-sleeve it and buy another M2033 piston (11.5 89mm). That is a shelf part, so we have it available now.



Here’s a couple of numbers of distributors you can call:

Alba Action Sports (858) 486-4380

Falicon (727) 797 2468







Best Regards,



Tony Calvert

Sales/Motorcycle Div.

CP PISTONS

1902 McGaw

Irvine, CA 92614

ph.- (949) 567-9000

fax- (949) 567-9010

tcalvert@cppistons.com

[Drummit77]

Originally posted by drew416ex
Ive heard that, but i have found that my JE has a little bit tighter tolerances than the wiseco.

Had never heard that before. very interesting....

Chris

[boosted3g]

If your worried about tolerances then go CP, they are the most accurate piston on the market. You get what you pay for. I come from a drag racing backround and ill admit that CP is the best but i put a wiseco in my engine. Any one of those pistons will work fine just pick the one that will work with your combo of the compression you want and the size you need.

[CSR400EX]

yeah that raptor is the fastest 660 i've ever seen. it runs next to his old banshee! anyway, i would by a new sleeve and have it installed. i had mine installed for $150 at R&R cycle if you know where thats at. as for a piston, go with a CP. i woulda bought one but i got a smokin deal on a 11:1 wiseco kit ($160 for everything:D )

[Drummit77]

Ronnie doesn't want to mess with it. I heard he's been sick but I didn't ask. Says he's "semi-retired" now. That's a good one.

Sending it all out to C&D. They've got the oversized kit that'll save me the cost of a sleeve and all the machine work that goes with it. Their parts prices are pretty dang good too. Bore and hone the sleeve, new piston, rebuilding the head, new timing chain...should cover everything for a while. :) I'm doin a clutch when I get some money saved again and I'm going to build an airbox for it....since someone thought it'd be a good idea to remove mine and throw it away. :huh

I'll keep ya posted on it....

[EPDP99]

CP pistons are great. Had 2 made and it was nowhere near 350. We had only 2 built so i know they do less than 4. they are custom pistons for our 465 quads. We did get the pistons at a price so low i cant say but NOWHERE near 350 and that was for 2. it was about 3-4 weeks to get them in though.