ESR 330 Stroked question/problem

[a250rlover]

I just purchased an ESR 330 stroked engine for a 350 total displacement. Had ESR machine the cases and install everything for me. Set it up for pump gas.

Did a small break in ride runing very rich. Question is my compression is only 159 measured at 1,300 ft elevation. That seems really low. I was running 205 on my stock engine using a CR head gasket.

Does this compression seem really low to anyone? Can't get a straight answer from ESR but they did say at one point it should be around 180.

[brokenbones]

call esr and talk to jay

he is the guy who did the work more then likely if the compression is to low what the spec number on your dome you should have 2 or 3 domes if the motor came from esr

my 2 cents

[a250rlover]

I know Jay well. Talked to him several times as I can't get this engine to barely even run and have been asking him to help me troubleshoot it.

I only got one dome. Am I supposed to get multiple domes?

Where do I find the compression number on the dome?

[Aceman]

Originally posted by a250rlover
I know Jay well. Talked to him several times as I can't get this engine to barely even run and have been asking him to help me troubleshoot it.

I only got one dome. Am I supposed to get multiple domes?

Where do I find the compression number on the dome?


He shouldn't need to be asked, he should be offering to help fix it. Everything we're telling you on here should of been explained to you by ESR. If this is an indicator of ESR's customer service, I'll pass thanks.

The dome number is on the back of the dome. ESR will be able to tell you how much compression you should have with that dome number. Don't let them BS you, if they built this motor make them stand behind it.

How do your reeds look? Are they sealing properly?

This is a spacer plate motor right? Is it the proper thickness?

[a250rlover]

Yea I feel like I'm getting the run around now. I've had the motor 2 months and it run like dog poop, to put it mildly.

They already had me pull the head and verify that the cylinder was decked. From my rough measurements (40 thousands) I say it was decked.

Now they're saying the electrical system is bad.... funny it worked fine with my stock engine that was running 205 lbs compression and now 159 lbs runs bad? He's saying the bigger bore does this? That makes no sense to me; I'd think electrical problems get worse with higher compression, not bigger bores.

I went back to my old Boyseen RAD valve just to keep everything consistant with my original running engine.... long story but I've brought everything back to my old setup as process of elimination that it's truely the motor having issues. My reeds are good, but old. My delta force 3 is sitting on the shelf waiting for these problems to get fixed before I introduce that variable to this mess.

[havinnoj]

You haven't tried everything, until you try a new cdi, and or cr or dyna ignition.

[a250rlover]

Well, if you want to go there... :) I've done that too.

Swapped the ENTIRE electrical system from my second bike (stator, harness, CDI, regulator, coil) and it ran a bit better. I am now using the best stator, harness, CDI coil that I have. The engine still has a "miss" sound to it that going lean or rich doesn't cure. And is VERY slow.

And since I'm not getting anymore help from ESR since their engine is perfect, I just ordered up a new ricky stator stator and flywheel.

ESR said don't run the Dyna as it will cause it to miss. I can't run a CR ign as I need lights.

BUT.... WHY should I have to buy all of this stuff when my bike ran fine with my high compression 250 motor????

[kustomfab2003]

I had the same problem with my Duncan 370PV motor. I just switched bak to the CR250 ignition and all of the problems went away. I had all of the following new, Dynatek CDI (both programable and non), 89 wiring harness, Ricky stator high out put stator and new voltage regulator. Also running the Recommended br9iex plugs on VP C-12 and 42:1 mixture.


Also keep in mind that the stock motor had higher compression but the big bore moves more air and will blow the spark out.


Josh

[havinnoj]

CR ignition solved all my problems -- pretty much like what you're having. Do some research though because there are guys that are running CR's AND lights.

[brokenbones]

you buy all that stuff for the love of the bigbore


.02

[a250rlover]

Where can I get info on a CR ignition and lights? Haven't even heard of that. And here I just bought a new stator and flywheel today :(

I'm assuming they're running batteries?

So should I be spending tons of money chasing electrical problems instead of throwing this engine back at these guys???

[a250rlover]

I just installed my new Ricky Stator high output stator and lightened flywheel and did a test at Gordon Wells this weekend. My plug is currently gapped ~16.

I noticed a small improvement, but the bike is still doing the bah bah bah sound and has the power of a 75cc engine. Very weak.

My buddy on this trip has a ESR 370 high compression, entire stock ignition and it rips like crazy. But he did replace his entire ignition setup when he put the new engine in.

Are we sure ESR didn't screw up anything in the engine? Any way to check... I have all of the numbers on the engine.

Thinking of doing the Nology coil next to attempt to fix.

[fireburns99]

Why are you guys recommending electrical fixes when it is obvious the compression is lower than it should be?? A fresh build should have a compression of at least 180 lbs. When it drops down to 160 its usually time for a rebuild. Did they give you the right sized piston?? Something more serious seems wrong.

If you're running a spacer plate, is it the correct size?? What dome are you running? I would say that the reason it is running like crap is that it has low compression.

[a250rlover]

Fireburns, very good question. I wondered the same.

I pulled the head and see nothing stamped on it at all. Not even ESRs name (which is on other heads I've seen).

Aceman, can't find anything stamped on the head. Nothing.

I did verify with ESR that the cylinder has been decked as the piston comes out of the cylinder about 40 thousands like it should. Piston looked plenty tight but after very little time on it, it is making a lot of noise. Is that normal for a big bore?

[fireburns99]

So if i read your original post correctly you had ESR build the engine correct? So they shipped it back to you, and when you tested it, it had only 160 lbs of compression?

Before doing anything is your compressions tester good? Can you can verify it by a second compression tester. If the reading is the same or within a couple of lbs you need to contact ESR. They should have noticed that the compression was substantially lower than it should be, and it is their responsibilty to correct it.

Do you live locally to them. I know they are located in Grover beach, if so just take it in there.

[beerock]

def check the compression again and make sure. that way to low like fire burns said.

it is up to esr period..

[a250rlover]

Ok, I've made a bunch of progress here...

The bike sputters a lot and was barely faster than a 50cc engine (that's not a typo). I've replaced the entire electrical system. Ricky Stator high output stator, Ricky Stator lightenec flywheel, Honda wiring harness, Dynatek non-programmable CDI, Nology coil plug cap and wire.

The bike now runs and is jetted reasonably pretty close. But it is slllloooowww. My old stock 250R engine can beat this 350.

I retested compression and got 166. Tried a second gauge and it said 150 (don't trust that gauge).

Problem: bike only makes power in the very top RPM ranges. I've setup the bike to be a mid-range fun dune bike. The cylinder is ported for mid and is stroked. I'm running the stock air box with the lid off and a K&N filter. Using ESR TRX5 pipe and FMF Powercore 2 silencer.

??? Is my problem low compression or the intake and exhaust setup?

[beerock]

go do one mroe compression test with someone elses tester, or bring the motor to shop and have them test it using a compresion tester they know works well


from the sound of it you DEF have a a compression problem that motor should not be anywhere below 190 at the least

[a250rlover]

I took the bike to my local shop who has a Snap On compression tester. He had two people use two diff gauges and it turns out my average compression is 162.

I just talked to Eddie @ESR. Eddie says the compression seems low but since the piston is coming out of the hole 40 everything else sounds right. He says that my head is a two piece unit and the only way to get the numbers on my head is to disassemble it. I'll do that tonight.

[fourtrax250r]

i talked to a guy that had a 350 cylinder when i was thinking of gettin one and he said that i would have to get a pvl ignition or it would run like ****. you might want to look at pvl.

[a250rlover]

A friend of mine is running a high compression 370 on race fuel with the ENTIRE electrical system Honda factory (but it is new). Lot's of guys on here seem to be running DynaTek too, like me. ESR recommends running a Honda stock CDI.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

a259rlover,
Do you know how to do a squish test ??? thats what you need to do so you & we will know what your squish clearance is set at.

Any squish clearance over 0.040 probably will make compression readings low.
Another thing that could cause low compression would be the top of the exhaust port opening cut to high & then the engine not being able to trap as much from there to TDC.

If your squish clearance is to wide, then only real way to change that is to cut another head dome, not cutting out as much & in turn make squish clearance tighter.
Neil

[a250rlover]

Hey Neil!

Funny you should ask. I did a squish clearance test tonight and it was 71 thousandths. Seems a bit excessive doesn't it?

Also, I was able to ROCK the piston back and forth in the cylinder at both TDC and BDC. And I mean ROCK IT with my hand. I don't have a good gauge to measure this because of the curvature of the cylinder, but my feeler gauge measured it at ~22 thousandths. Are big bores setup this loose???

Also, the piston is intentionally setup to come out of the hole 40. The width of the top of the cylinder was 2.996 and the width of the head was 3.060 which I think should match pretty close as the head is an "extension" of the cylinder in this type of stroker setup. My head and cylinder are 64 OFF! Is this a problem??

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by a250rlover
The width of the top of the cylinder was 2.996 and the width of the head was 3.060 which I think should match pretty close as the head is an "extension" of the cylinder in this type of stroker setup. My head and cylinder are 64 OFF! Is this a problem??

I don't have experience with ESR stroker motors so I can't say for certain, but would this be to allow for overbores?

If the head matched the cylinder exactly, then you would need to cut a new dome every time you bored the cylinder.

I'm not saying that it's definitely intentional, because like I said, I don't really know. But I could see it as a possibility.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

These problems right here with this engine are what a lot of people dont understand when it comes to building a stroker engine.

When your thinking about building a stroker & before anything is started you got to have a good solid idea what the outcome of the build will be. You cant just start out throwing parts together & expect it to work.

The deal with his head, its cut wrong, no way around it.

When that engine was built, ESR, Eddie or who ever was in charge should have known how it was suppost to be at the end of the build.
When you build a stroker & going to have the piston running up into the head you dont cut the head dome to allow for over bores, each bore size is its own build, one of a kind.
A stroker engine is an unordnary engine & you cant look at it any other way, its just to confusing when you compair it to a regular engine.

Now, lets in a way solve the problem or try to.
A new dome will need to be cut, but first that cylinder needs pulling off to check out that piston size & the cylinder bore.
On a fresh big bore build, the piston to cylinder clearance should be anywhere from 0.0020 to 0.0040 because of the Wiseco piston. Tighter you have the clearance the more intence the break in time needs to be.
Ideally, if you have a bore shop with enough common sence on how to bore a straight hole, half the problems encounted from a failed engine are gone. With a straight hole, tighter you can set the piston clearance up at longer it will last, but, remember the intence break in time.

Once the piston deal has been taken care of next thing is the head dome.
With the cylinder mounted, get a measurement of how much pop up the piston is comming out of the cylinder & then have the dome cut to what ever compression rate your wanting.
You got to allow in the cut of the dome for the amount of piston that will be going up into the head + the amount of squish clearance to get it to the compression amount your wanting.
When the dome is being cut, the sidewall of the dome where the piston is running up into should be the same size as the bore of the cylinder. Dont over bore it to allow for over bores of new pistons.
Remember, each piston size on a stroker engine is its own build, not a regular engine, one piston size at a time.

Probably wouldnt hurt for any of you guys that are serious about R engines to print this post, its easy to forget things as time goes by & may not be anybody else that cares to take the time explaining.

Everybody has their own way of doing thing such as building a engine for somebody. Some people care if the engine is right when it get to the customer & some only want the dollar fast as they can get it.
Neil

[wilkin250r]

Neil, what are the other strategies for setting up stroker motors?

You can machine the head to allow the piston to extend further up beyond the actual top of the cylinder, as in this case.

Can you use a spacer to move the entire cylinder upwards and use a normal head? How involved does the porting get for a modification like that?

Are the rod lengths fairly standard?


Stroker motors intrigue me, simply because they are beyond my ability to set up properly from scratch. I'd like to change that.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Neil, what are the other strategies for setting up stroker motors?

You can machine the head to allow the piston to extend further up beyond the actual top of the cylinder, as in this case.

Can you use a spacer to move the entire cylinder upwards and use a normal head? How involved does the porting get for a modification like that?

Are the rod lengths fairly standard?


Stroker motors intrigue me, simply because they are beyond my ability to set up properly from scratch. I'd like to change that.

Yes the head can be machined more,
Most builder realy dont like to run the piston up into the head but sometimes that has to be done.
Normally, when the head has to be cut out for the piston, it is because the cylinder was already ported for a stock stroke crank or the build has a + 5 stroke or is a long rod stroker, a rod longer than the stock long rod.
Building a stroker is a hand full of work if its done the proper way.
One of the problem you encounter with the Pro-x cylinders, they are all machined for the standard short rod crank, thats why you see them with a spacer plate under the cylinder when used on a long rod crank.
All machining to the Pro-x cylinders are done before they leave LA Sleeve reguardless of what customer ( CT, ESR, LRD, ) they are going to.
To build a stroker engine the proper way, a special order cylinder would need to come from LA Sleeve with the machining to the base & deck set up for the + stroke crank your intending to use.

When you hear a builder say long rod stroker engine, normally they mean it has a long rod longer than the Honda long rod.
The Honda long rod measures 130.3 & the long rod they are talking about is a 135.?. Theres even one build some guys have tryed with a 140. ? rod.

Far as using a spacer plate to get the piston flat with the deck building a stroker so you can use a regular cut head, if the cylinder has already been ported you would end up with an exhaust port thats probably going to be to high & you would end up with a drag engine.
If a drag engine is what your wanting, then that type of spacer plate build would be ok.

On the rod lenghts, you mean from one brand to the other, if so yes normally because every aftermarket brand in a sence are coping Hondas specs, at least wanting them to be the same size.
Neil

[machwon]

Originally posted by a250rlover

I did a squish clearance test tonight and it was 71 thousandths. Seems a bit excessive doesn't it?

Also, I was able to ROCK the piston back and forth in the cylinder at both TDC and BDC. And I mean ROCK IT with my hand. I don't have a good gauge to measure this because of the curvature of the cylinder, but my feeler gauge measured it at ~22 thousandths. Are big bores setup this loose???

Also, the piston is intentionally setup to come out of the hole 40. The width of the top of the cylinder was 2.996 and the width of the head was 3.060 which I think should match pretty close as the head is an "extension" of the cylinder in this type of stroker setup. My head and cylinder are 64 OFF! Is this a problem??

I would get with ESR on your dome, based on your head with it sounds like you have a 370 dome. I would expect ESR to have around .050 squish on that set up. The piston should be measured at the bottom as the top will be much smaller than the bore due to thermal expansion.