PDA

View Full Version : DS 450 Reliability



ill_lil_romey
11-17-2007, 01:14 PM
According to reports Epic/Can-Am DS 450's have been breaking at WORCS races.

telcom
11-17-2007, 02:09 PM
any pictures ?
some links?
any more info regarding the frame braking ?
cheers.
haim.

CannondaleRider
11-17-2007, 02:22 PM
WORCS Round 7; Olympia - Josh dominated...no bike problems, even in that NASTY mud that the Pro race dealt with. Also no problems with Jeremy's bike, not that I know of. Josh's bike did appear to be smoking at the end, but in mud like that, that's not a surprise in the least.

WORCS Round 8; Monticello - Josh had an electrical issue. I talked to him the weekend after, and it was actually a connection on battery, or somewhere near there....grounded out on the frame, or something to that effect. Thats human error on how they built the bike...simple fix.

WORCS Round 9: Pismo Beach - Jeremy lost his muffler....he ran a large part of the race, then quit. I'm sure the bike wasn't going to stay healthy missing the muffler. Josh did flat out break....he was running a decent race, and the bike was running very well. Had some sort of motor issue on the start of the last lap(I believe)...never got a chance to ask him what the issue was.

WORCS Round 10; Taft - Sage Baker quit fairly quickly....the counter sprocket came loose/off....couldn't really keep going like that, lol. Looked like it happened out on the off-road, so he had to be towed in...so it would have been a DSQ anyways. Again, not sure what the deal was with Josh's bike.

hanes17
11-18-2007, 09:16 PM
At Pismo the motor actually seized up. I'm not sure about Taft, but it was starting to smoke early.

If I were a CanAm rider I would be very concerned about finishing next year!

joedirt
11-19-2007, 07:32 AM
I don't care if it is quad or human error it doesn't make them look good. 1st they give us little bits of what the quad is. Then they don't release it and now they are breaking. Remember when Cannondale had the problems everybody crucified them. Can Am should have tested it long before telling the public this doesn't make them look good.

Punk'd
11-19-2007, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by joedirt
I don't care if it is quad or human error it doesn't make them look good. 1st they give us little bits of what the quad is. Then they don't release it and now they are breaking. Remember when Cannondale had the problems everybody crucified them. Can Am should have tested it long before telling the public this doesn't make them look good.

I agree. They are ruiening all this hype and everyones getting sick of waiting.. I mean come on.. They were suppost to be released in June. They should of tested it beforehand.

bwamos
11-19-2007, 11:37 AM
I disagree. If they are having some issues with the motor, then they should be holding off production to fix the issue first.

Releasing it, and having the general public deal with the failures is how you get crucified.

Sounds like the majority of the issue is that they just need to do some redesign work on the piston. Probably need a slightly taller skirt. But doing that without hampering their top end performance is the balancing act.

The countersprocket issue sounds like mechanic error to me.

I've also never seen an official release date on this quad. All I've heard is "my dealer told me this", "my rep told me that." Aren't you the one that said your rep told you October/November back in the spring?

They've still got time before next race season.

ThePhantomRider
11-19-2007, 11:44 AM
You all need to relax for a minute and understand a few things about what is going on.

First the info at pismo was due (again) to an electrical issue that caused an overheating problem. Josh was out there to push it to the edge and see what it would take.

If you look at my other posts here, there is a very dilligent effort going on right now (publically no less) by Can-Am to root out any potential gremilns with this quad.

They know all too well how much rides on this project, they know the Cannondale story and refuse to repeat it. They have seen the locked trannys by other companies and any number of things that happen with new releases. So, in plain view, they are going throught their final shake downs and making sure that if you or I are on a long ride, that that wire doesn't gound out and strand us, or that the sensor that works with the cooling system doesn't let go grenading our motor.

They have logged many hours during development, and no matter how hard people say they push equipment in testing, real racing will push it that much further and break or expose that many more things. Only then will any real issues reveal themselves and can be corrected. This is a step most manufacturers refuse to take. We become the guniea pigs, we get to sit and wait while we hope the issue is covered by a warranty. This is somthing they are trying to avoid, but people look and think....gosh, they are out there and these things are "breaking" It's simply not the case. I'd rather be anxious waiting to get one and know that this time is being spent to get the best quality for my $$$$ than get a quad, have the tranny go out and find out it's a line wide issue, then wait for my turn to get it fixed....The engine and tranny are solid, the chassis and suspension are solid and the electrical issues are being rectified.....

Having a family with a background in Indy Car engineering, I have learned a ton about the little things. You can't emagine how much vibration and movement will jostle things around and finding those little things sometimes can be more difficult than "major" problems.

BTW, Can-Am never formally gave a release date. They revealed the quad to the public and have since, publically shown how the final testing is done, real racing situations both success and failures....they know what you see, they read what you write and they are going to have the best 450 class quad available to you, bar none.

TPR

ThePhantomRider
11-19-2007, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by bwamos
I disagree. If they are having some issues with the motor, then they should be holding off production to fix the issue first.

Releasing it, and having the general public deal with the failures is how you get crucified.

Sounds like the majority of the issue is that they just need to do some redesign work on the piston. Probably need a slightly taller skirt. But doing that withing hampering their top end performance is the balancing act.

The countersprocket issue sounds like mechanic error to me.

I've also never seen an official release date on this quad. All I've heard is "my dealer told me this", "my rep told me that." Aren't you the one that said your rep told you October/November back in the spring?

They've still got time before next race season.

You hit most points on the head, read my post above to address the motor "Issue"

As for the sprocket, Sage was running hard trying to catch Eichner, had to ride without goggles because they were too muddy. During one section in the off road area, he said he hit somthing real hard. He finished the lap and continued on...the sprocket broke mid way through the lap, so he had to remove it to get towed back.

The same race, Josh had made up a ton of ground and they decided to see if the motor could take another lap without cleaning the mud in the radiator (They spent many hours in 100° plus heat in the deserts with different levels air blockage to see how much the motor would handle during testing, it will manage alot of heat) but this was a gamble that didn't pay off...that's racing and nothing else, they simply pushed it too far. The only bikes that made the whole race, did a power wash every 2 laps. It's like pushing the extra mileage in NASCAR, pays off sometimes, ends your day others.

But yeah, I'd rather them break it and me get to watch, than for me to break it and have to sit around and wait.

TPR

joedirt
11-19-2007, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
they are going to have the best 450 class quad available to you, bar none.



Do you really believe that? Considering every manufacturer has said the same thing and has not proven it.

Maybe Can Am shouldn't have hyped it up so much that way we wouldn't pick it apart so much.

KTM has done it the way it should be done. And they are finishing races.

Punk'd
11-19-2007, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by bwamos
I disagree. If they are having some issues with the motor, then they should be holding off production to fix the issue first.

Releasing it, and having the general public deal with the failures is how you get crucified.

Sounds like the majority of the issue is that they just need to do some redesign work on the piston. Probably need a slightly taller skirt. But doing that without hampering their top end performance is the balancing act.

The countersprocket issue sounds like mechanic error to me.

I've also never seen an official release date on this quad. All I've heard is "my dealer told me this", "my rep told me that." Aren't you the one that said your rep told you October/November back in the spring?

They've still got time before next race season.


I official release date was suppost to be earlier this year no doubt. We have tech manuals at work saying when certain accessories would be released for the bike and they were set for july meaning the bike would of had to been released before-hand. Im not bashing them im going to be buying one myself. I just think they should have had this all tested and done after 6 years of r&d.

I think them fixing it before releaseing it is a good thing, but I have seen alot of people buying something else because of the fact that this is taking 1/2 year+ to come out. They should'nt of hyped everyone up so early in the ball game because now most people's hype has worn off.

GE4x4
11-19-2007, 04:13 PM
How can this quad be raced if it hasn't been released? I have not heard of anybody getting one except the few racers. So how can Frederick be able to race in a production class over 2 months ago??

motox450
11-19-2007, 04:18 PM
Here we are once again. The bottom line is Can-Am's marketing tactics are backfiring ten fold. Now they are "racing the quads" the get the bugs out. ALL OF THE BUGS SHOULD HAVE BEEN WORKED OUT IN TESTING!!!! The Big 5(Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, KTM) have people testing for HOURS AND HOURS with little to no maint for torture testing. I have a friend that was a factory suzuki bike rider back in the day and they had riders that their entire job was to aboslutely punish the bikes for days on end, and filled out report after report on what they did hours logged, and the mechanics would go back through and tear the bikes completely down and measure tollerances, and check for failires. The Big 5 make sure that when they release the product info it is ready to hit the showroom floors soon after. I am tired of the "they have to get this right" story. Yeah they have to get it right, but they DIDN'T have to have to marketing hype leading up to what??? No quads on the showroom, and now they are having mechanical faliures at races. The hype is letting everyone down and the failures and making people worry. All Can-Am is doing now is pushing potential buyers to other brands. I was in between the new Can-Am, or the new KTM. Can-Am is making the choice very easy for myself and many many others.

ThePhantomRider
11-19-2007, 04:57 PM
Moto, you are way off base on your assumptions here and there are simple ways to prove it.

Can-Am, like every other manufacturer did thousands of hours of testing in building these quads, probably even more considering the gravity of all the new features and designs they were introducing.

All the big three do the same thing, and then release their quads shortly after they unveil them....this is true, and given how long each of these companies have made sport quads both past and present, let's look at a few things not to do when launching a new quad....

Cannondale: Over hyped, over engineered, great direction and concept, the idea is a model for future quads....too bad, they didn't have the capacity to get it more right in the beginning and instead have to chase their tail which the were never able to do...motor update packages are not condusive to success....

Suzuki: Ahhh your very inspiriation for your post...they spent hours beating these quads to death...heck they were the first to build one....Doug Gust had a hand in development....end result?? An underpowered quad with the need to have a factory welded in rear shock linkage kit and a slew of tranny problems....Couldn't this have been found in some of those log books???

Honda: Honda probably has the best track record as they don't take as many chances as they spend their time getting it dialed in to the moderate. That is a proven and winning formula, but not very exciting...now you have a 450 that has twitchy steering and suspension that makes people want to buy older replacement parts....even mighty Honda has issues....and let's not talk about the E-start versions.

Kawasaki: The originator of the hang on to your but thrill ride the Tecate.....They spent tons of time working on their new 450...they had a new motor, aluminum frame that was a take on the Cannondale....they spent thousands of hours beating this thing up and they are still left with hand numbing vibrations, gas tank issues and other nagging things and most say the handling is at best, OK....The Tecate 4 lives on....

Yamaha: We all know they seem to be the first at almost always getting a new segment out...but that comes at a price.....Look at the year 1 Raptors....tranny issues everywhere, as well as rear suspension settings that needed to be revised.....Then you have the vaunted YFZ 450...again they didn't learn and sent out a slew of bad trannys, harsh shocks and rock hard seats...these things all got changed because Joe public did the final testing for them.

KTM, yet to be seen....the validity of how fast the guy was going when he hit the tree is in question, but I have heard from testers that the front end is loose and likes to wander and for some riders it's correctable through their adjustments, but some could never get it right. Also with the 0° rake in the front has proven difficult to get right as other companies have tried and failed....(Look at their quad mentor's Polaris)

Polaris...Naahh too easy and it's a shame because they have some great ideas out there...

Point being is, should they have unveiled it later? Maybe, but good or bad their plan seems to have been to show it, race it a bit and release it with all they learn applied to production.

The last thing they need is a catastrophic series of frame or engine failures to contend with. Somtimes innovation comes with a price and it may be frustrating to have to wait, but you need to praise a company that will even take some egg on their faces to make it right for the consumer, and Can-Am is doing that very thing right now.

TPR

joedirt
11-19-2007, 05:35 PM
Supposedly a dealer in New Jersey has a DS on their showroom floor.

ThePhantomRider
11-19-2007, 05:41 PM
Probably an early release show and tell unit. Not likely for sale.


TPR

joedirt
11-19-2007, 06:01 PM
They say it's sold.

GE4x4
11-19-2007, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by joedirt
They say it's sold.


It's sold but sitting on the floor. Sounds like a show and tell, but they say it's sold to make it sound good. Mayby that is why Frederick can race one. They have 100 dealers with one on the floor and say it's sold. Now it's a production quad that no one has rode.:confused:

joedirt
11-19-2007, 06:26 PM
I'm not sure if WORCS has a production rule. I don't think WORCS is AMA sanctioned.

The AMA allows manufacturers to run new models for a limited time before they are released to the public.

GE4x4
11-19-2007, 06:51 PM
You may be right. I just assumed any national pro race would follow production rules. I guess that is why I like GNCC better.:D

motox450
11-19-2007, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Moto, you are way off base on your assumptions here and there are simple ways to prove it.

Can-Am, like every other manufacturer did thousands of hours of testing in building these quads, probably even more considering the gravity of all the new features and designs they were introducing.

All the big three do the same thing, and then release their quads shortly after they unveil them....this is true, and given how long each of these companies have made sport quads both past and present, let's look at a few things not to do when launching a new quad....

Cannondale: Over hyped, over engineered, great direction and concept, the idea is a model for future quads....too bad, they didn't have the capacity to get it more right in the beginning and instead have to chase their tail which the were never able to do...motor update packages are not condusive to success....

Suzuki: Ahhh your very inspiriation for your post...they spent hours beating these quads to death...heck they were the first to build one....Doug Gust had a hand in development....end result?? An underpowered quad with the need to have a factory welded in rear shock linkage kit and a slew of tranny problems....Couldn't this have been found in some of those log books???

Honda: Honda probably has the best track record as they don't take as many chances as they spend their time getting it dialed in to the moderate. That is a proven and winning formula, but not very exciting...now you have a 450 that has twitchy steering and suspension that makes people want to buy older replacement parts....even mighty Honda has issues....and let's not talk about the E-start versions.

Kawasaki: The originator of the hang on to your but thrill ride the Tecate.....They spent tons of time working on their new 450...they had a new motor, aluminum frame that was a take on the Cannondale....they spent thousands of hours beating this thing up and they are still left with hand numbing vibrations, gas tank issues and other nagging things and most say the handling is at best, OK....The Tecate 4 lives on....

Yamaha: We all know they seem to be the first at almost always getting a new segment out...but that comes at a price.....Look at the year 1 Raptors....tranny issues everywhere, as well as rear suspension settings that needed to be revised.....Then you have the vaunted YFZ 450...again they didn't learn and sent out a slew of bad trannys, harsh shocks and rock hard seats...these things all got changed because Joe public did the final testing for them.

KTM, yet to be seen....the validity of how fast the guy was going when he hit the tree is in question, but I have heard from testers that the front end is loose and likes to wander and for some riders it's correctable through their adjustments, but some could never get it right. Also with the 0° rake in the front has proven difficult to get right as other companies have tried and failed....(Look at their quad mentor's Polaris)

Polaris...Naahh too easy and it's a shame because they have some great ideas out there...

Point being is, should they have unveiled it later? Maybe, but good or bad their plan seems to have been to show it, race it a bit and release it with all they learn applied to production.

The last thing they need is a catastrophic series of frame or engine failures to contend with. Somtimes innovation comes with a price and it may be frustrating to have to wait, but you need to praise a company that will even take some egg on their faces to make it right for the consumer, and Can-Am is doing that very thing right now.

TPR


TPR,
How am I off base by saying that they over marketed the DS without having a finished product??? Are you riding a DS450 right now? Nope didn't think so. I am not saying they shouldn't wait? They should wait to make sure they get the product correct. What they shouldn't have done is draw out their hyped showing of the quad, with no production quad to show for it. Am I saying that racing the quad to get the bugs out of it is a bad idea, once again no, but before you go bringing all the hype of the best quad they better be winning races and little to no failures. At this point it looks like their "best production quad" isn't doing so well. Overheating issues, engine failures, countersprocket issues, and the list continues. These items do not vote well with consumer confidence. It makes their "best quad" seem to have a bunch of problems that should have been taken care of before hitting the race track. So now you have a delayed production of the quad to get the bugs worked out of the "best production quad", and people running in droves to by the new KTM, or any other brand at this point. Have the others had issues yep. You bet, but they do have one thing that the DS doesn't. People riding them. Until Can-Am has a production quad that is kicking the snot out of the competition it will remain as it is now. An overhyped product with bugs to work out. It's hard to argue with that fact.

As for my inspiration on suzuki it was based on MOTORCYCLE data. Not on quads. As for being underpowered all stock 450's at this point are making anywhere from 34-38hp. Depending on dynos with all withing 2-3hp of each other. Did the first LTR's have an issues witht he lower linkage not having a guesst on them, yep, do some have tranny issues, yep, are there quirks with all the quads yep. But people are still buying them because they are on the showroom floors and they know what they are getting. I would never mention Cannondale as they went down the path Can-Am is now. Lots of hype, and well a host of issues.

I currently have and race an 05 Honda. I have never had any issues with it whatsoever. My brother has an 05 YFZ with no problems. My brother in law has an 04 Predator, no problem(other than its not a great quad by design the thing weighs a ton!). I do own an 07 KTM 105 bike , and I run the snot out of it with no problems to date. I am not biased to one brand or another. My next quad will be whatever I feel is the best out there. I won't buy before I can ride them all and then I will purchase it. I am partial to the DS because of the inovations as far as the frame and the some of the other aspects of it. I am partial to the KTM because I have one already and it has been bullet proof. I don't want another honda because as you said their isn't much flair to them. I am just stating Can-Am isn't doing itself any favors by the over Marketed product with nothing to show.

pred174
11-19-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider

Polaris...Naahh too easy and it's a shame because they have some great ideas out there...
TPR

Not really sure as what u can really say about them cause eichner has been doing dam good on them

and u got caleb moore flipping virtually a stock quad compared to what he was riding

Polaris will most likely be the team to beat next year eichner and shafe all the way...well even if they don't win there i better chances they will finish

Punk'd
11-19-2007, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by joedirt
They say it's sold.

I was told production HAS started about 2-3 weeks ago, but I have yet to see or hear anything about them hitting dealers anywhere??

ThePhantomRider
11-20-2007, 08:52 AM
Look, I can agree that perhaps it could be said they jumped the gun a bit premature. They had a plan, and perhaps it changed because they saw a couple things that appeared that needed to be sorted out....so they did it publicly. There are some people I have talked to about this quad that said they don't mind the wait and appreciate their willingness to have the final bugs worked out in public. You may not, and that is the beauty of these forums.

I don't doubt the quads you have experience have had no issues...you have a 05 Honda, I would buy that one...I would not get an 06', especially the ER...05 Yamaha had their bugs worked out, aside from the Powerwheels egronomics, I'd have one of them....

Polaris has gotten better, but again, they have paid a price for issues with early Predator runs...the early PRO steering system worked great for the short life span it had which made the quad a dangerous handful to ride...I'm sure they did thousands of hours of testing on that as well.

I guess it's different strokes for different folks. They had a plan, and maybe it went astray, but it is all about getting quality and reliability to the people.

BTW, as I am privy, there has not been an out and out motor failure, 2 seperate heat issues have caused shut downs under racing conditions, this has been part of their process all along...push everything to the breaking point. Again, I don't want to be the guinea pig for a new product, and I have been able to check out the DS first hand and have seen what a stocker can really do.

TPR

TPR

hanes17
11-20-2007, 09:42 AM
You say that they wanted Josh to go out and break it right? Thats really lame. The last race of the year and he dnf's after not running good the last two races before that due to a broken quad. Everyone is thinking, wow if he had not been on his Honda he would have not won the championship. Why do you think that he was so emotional at the banquet. He even said it himself "you never know when your going to be back up here".

ThePhantomRider
11-20-2007, 09:49 AM
No they didn't want him to break it....1st, he had the championship wrapped up, he had as much to do about the decision as the team did to go for the 3rd lap without cleaning after he had just passed most everyone through the shickane (sp?) They gave him the sign to come in if he wanted and he decided to try to push it and it didn't work out. He could have pulled himself in, or they could have ordered him in, they tried a stragedy and it didn't work. But never was it thought, hey just run it till it breaks. They were wanting to win, and they tried to push it. Again, it was a racing situation.

TPR

Punk'd
11-20-2007, 11:43 AM
TPR have you heard any recent news on a release date?

ThePhantomRider
11-20-2007, 12:29 PM
Very soon, I have not heard an actual date...but very soon. They made all the last minute refinements and made sure they not only were adressed on production, but also truly corrected.

TPR

Punk'd
11-20-2007, 12:36 PM
So what I have been told about production already starting is true? If this is the case I'm sure what they are doing now is making enough for each dealer to recieve one first?

ThePhantomRider
11-20-2007, 01:02 PM
I think that's been part of it. They not only want the quad to be dialed in, but also have enough for the dealers to have and avoid as much dealer gouge they can. Again, that leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.


TPR

scottwvu
11-21-2007, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
No they didn't want him to break it....1st, he had the championship wrapped up, he had as much to do about the decision as the team did to go for the 3rd lap without cleaning after he had just passed most everyone through the shickane (sp?) They gave him the sign to come in if he wanted and he decided to try to push it and it didn't work out. He could have pulled himself in, or they could have ordered him in, they tried a stragedy and it didn't work. But never was it thought, hey just run it till it breaks. They were wanting to win, and they tried to push it. Again, it was a racing situation.

TPR

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but TPR seems to be one of the best (if not THE best) and most knowledgeable posters on this site. I always look foreward to his posts, as I always LEARN something from him.

Isn't that the idea???

KUDOS to you, TPR. You are quite an asset to this site:D

bwamos
11-21-2007, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Punk'd
So what I have been told about production already starting is true? If this is the case I'm sure what they are doing now is making enough for each dealer to recieve one first?

They also have to build up an inventory of replacement parts before they start selling them.

ThePhantomRider
11-21-2007, 11:00 AM
Thanks alot. Not everyone thinks so, and that's fine. I have just been trying to help people to understand that what is being done is not so they can irritate the potential customers, but to be open about what goes into a winning machine. There is nothing hidden, they aren't so wanton for sales dollars they are willing to release a sub-par piece of equipment to their public as other companies have.

These are my words. I have been around the ATV business since 1982 and have lost track of countless numbers of quads that have come out and suffered because they needed to get to market.

Look at the first 3 250 sport quads...TRX 250R...this became the gold standard...it was very good in all aspects. Handled the best, good suspension and a solid motor that had been proven for a couple years prior.

LT 250r Quadracer: The first high performance 250....best rear suspension design still to this day (Full Floater) powerful motor, but suffered in the front end due to being the first and having short arms, spread wide apart with short shocks.

Kawasaki KXT Tecate 4: Firepower motor, wierd (but in a cool way) looks, ok suspension but terrible geometry and dimensions...think Blaster with too much motor...and they had the most time to design theirs....

It took 23 years for someone to actually do somthing to get the front end of these quads anywhere near to proper geometry and kingpin axis location....

It took 23 years for someone to not just use a different frame material, but to also create a whole new methodology to engineering a frame design. Using stress analisys, to transmit load evenly, to use the lightest possible materials and ground breaking bonding methods....23 years....

I look at Cannondale as the roadmap to the future....sure they failed, but look at what's happened...2 companies use alloy frames, with more on the way, they were the first with EFI....they were the first with better than average shocks.....Can-Am has taken that to the next step where Kawasaki took it and made it their own.

Honestly, I could own any of the new 450's and be happy (Aside from the Yamaha egro's...just don't like them) I just like the idea that a company took years to create somthing and has let me watch the final stages of it's completion.

TPR

ThePhantomRider
11-21-2007, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by bwamos
They also have to build up an inventory of replacement parts before they start selling them.

Yep....

People think that when a quad is revealed, everything to make it is ready to go...most times, they are getting all the tooling for production ready when a quad is revealed. It's quite an undertaking so most first run quads are hand built, then they need to make sure the production line is as good quality wise as the hand builts....That can take some tinkering and people need to realize this is part of the process.


TPR

Punk'd
11-22-2007, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Yep....

People think that when a quad is revealed, everything to make it is ready to go...most times, they are getting all the tooling for production ready when a quad is revealed. It's quite an undertaking so most first run quads are hand built, then they need to make sure the production line is as good quality wise as the hand builts....That can take some tinkering and people need to realize this is part of the process.


TPR

Very true, but from my knowledge this quad should be one of the more easier quads to build being there is no welding done to the frame.

That alone could save quite some time.

Dale512
11-22-2007, 06:27 PM
Phantom, just out of curiousity. Why do you think the full floater suspension on the old LT's is so great?

ThePhantomRider
11-23-2007, 06:45 PM
When Suzuki had the Full Floater and Kawasaki to some extent with the Uni Trak fully floating suspensions, they were almost always chosen to have hte best rear suspension. The other rising rates setups weren't ever close.

The reason for this being the best from a suspension standpoint is due to a number of things. First being you can set up your shock at ideal angles, in this case, vertical. since it is floating and not attached to the frame aside from the pivot of the bell crank, the shock doesn't have to have wild valving trickery to work. You get a more consistent feel through the entire stroke of the shock.

In talking with suspension wizards with dozens of years building everything from sprint cars to indy cars, they will all tell you if you can use a bellcrank/pushrod type suspension, do it...if you can fully float the shock, even better. It really makes that much of a difference in shock valving, and the ability to make big changes switching pushrod lengths and pivot ratios is amazing.

After all that good news, the chance of ever seeing it on a quad again are slim. There are a lot of moving parts involved, there's a bit more weight, and the packaging of it all is a bit tricky, plus if you run the pivot off the subframe (All are removable) you could have bigger issues, and I would bet most would rather have a removable/replaceable subframe and deal with the more cuurently typical rising rate linkage systems.

TPR

310ESR
12-05-2007, 07:35 PM
Hey phantom were you at the taft race because I was and the Can-Am's did not look that impressive. Josh and Sage both broke and they had nothing for Doug. Granted Doug was on a mission.
But after that race I decided there would be no Can-Am in my future. I'll take my 1000.00 tranny vs. only finishing one race a year any day.

Sorry just my opinion from what I've seen

ThePhantomRider
12-06-2007, 09:33 AM
Well, that is your opinion and you are absolutely welcome to it.

Taft....ok lets break that down.....Doug was on a mission, Doug is a great rider, Doug was on a nicely built 525 which was, in that race as well as the Washington race, a more ideal quad for the conditions. In Washington, Josh took home the win despite the obvious advantages the extra motor and IRS gave Doug in the mud, at Taft I will spell out the day for both DS's.

Sage was after Doug....would he have caught him? Who knows, but on lap 2 he had to remove his goggles because he was buried in mud. At one point in lap 2 he smashed the underside of his quad into somthing solid. He came in and cleaned the radiator and went back out. On the 3rd lap the sprocket let go from the previous lap's damage.

Josh got a late jump on the start and was buried, he had made his way back to the front of the pack by the end of lap 2 and didn't want to lose the ground he had made up, so they, as a team, gambled and tried to squeeze 3 laps out of the bike while ALL THE FINISHERS cleaned the sticky mud out every 2 laps.

The gamble didn't pay off as the bike overheated and being out in the muck, there was no way for Josh to get back to clean it out and cool the bike down, so he shut down and called it a day.

That's the truth, simple enough, racing elements kept them from completing the race, Doug ran great, he won. Very simple and it could happen to anyone.

TPR

Punk'd
12-06-2007, 01:25 PM
Thats good I was wondering what happened.

Atleast it was not a product flaw.. to me it sounds like it could of happened to anyone.

ThePhantomRider
12-06-2007, 01:55 PM
That's the point exactly...what people are not seeing is that all the big possible issues have been worked out before it was raced. These have all been the small things that companies typically leave us to find out on our own.

If rumors are true that they should be hitting the floors any day now, then it would also mean that everyone who gets one will already benefit from the fixes made from race discovery.

I personally think I may go with the X Package...I dunno though. I would really like a white set of plastics for it, arms, axle, and a bit of red here and there and we are dialed in!

TPR

Punk'd
12-06-2007, 05:43 PM
Got a email from our rep today saying its shipping in 2 weeks and hes pushing to get it to us sooner.

TPR im honestly in the same boat. I've been thinking about the X model, but I think after the first couple rides its going to look really crappy.

Our X-model Renagade looks like poop from people just sitting on it.

ThePhantomRider
12-07-2007, 09:44 AM
I ride mostly in the sand and desert and have had black quads in the past so it's nothing new to me.

I just figure that I'll be adding alot of that stuff anyway, might as well get it out of the way. After that I'll be adding the Epic A-arms and Fox Floats, and by the time I get mine, I'll have a set of white plastics to get it looking the way I want....(No I don't know of either Fullbore or Maier working on plastics, I just go by past situations and how long it takes to get them to market.)

TPR

Dale@AGP
12-07-2007, 03:50 PM
Interesting....

http://www.atlanticgrandprix.com/images/450shootout.jpg

http://www.atvmag.com/

Dale@AGP
12-07-2007, 03:53 PM
http://www.atlanticgrandprix.com/images/113a16.jpg

I think they're out?

ThePhantomRider
12-07-2007, 03:57 PM
:D I am not surprised....


TPR

joedirt
12-07-2007, 04:40 PM
Radiator is in a bad spot.

ThePhantomRider
12-07-2007, 05:19 PM
????

It's maybe 2 inches forward of the other quads. If you think the two frame rails that are in front of the other radiators is a big help, think again....

It's in a similar position to the Banshee and Quadracers and theirs were never an issue.

TPR

310ESR
12-07-2007, 05:41 PM
Hey Phantom were you at Pismo or Taft because I didn't see a cannod opps I mean Can-Am finish

joedirt
12-07-2007, 05:46 PM
If your racing GNCC and you have to stop to clean your radiator your not going to win.
That was a big problem when people raced Banshees in a 2 hour woods race.
I think there is a bigger difference then just 2 inches.

310ESR
12-07-2007, 05:57 PM
Oh I forgot at Taft Doug never cleaned his radiator. Just fuel and goggles. I did suck that Sage got dirt in his eyes from pulling his goggles off, but team Epic never tryed to fix the bike. The big surprise from Taft was the rider that never raced a quad before the pro race and finished 4th on a stock Suzuki 450 with stock tires and lights.

Dale@AGP
12-08-2007, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by joedirt
If your racing GNCC and you have to stop to clean your radiator your not going to win.
That was a big problem when people raced Banshees in a 2 hour woods race.
I think there is a bigger difference then just 2 inches.

We haven't seen this quad in action yet... so how can we assume that its going to get in there.

It's quite possible that they took it into consideration with the louver design.

I know at the muddy WORCS race that wasn't the problem.

So far the DNFs have been caused by after-market modifications which is to be expected considering that this is a new design and the performance shops are still learning.

My guess is.... we'll have to wait and see.

RosquistRacer39
12-08-2007, 04:22 PM
I dont know of this as an isolated incident, because at the pismo race didn't josh's bike get so hot it melted a temprature sensor. Maybe just a flaw in the cooling system. They should figure it out.
As far as mud in the radiator, why dont all companies put louvres in the front of the radiators like they do with dirtbikes? The KTM does and I noticed the factory suzuki bikes have them as well. I also wanted to say that I saw the article on the polaris outlaw 525 IRS finished the Baja 1000. Good to see, maybe polaris is moving in the right direction.

atvlover
12-10-2007, 10:43 AM
Hello everyone. My name is Johnny with Motoworks. This weekend we raced the 6 hour race at Glen Helen. The Can Am DS450 worked perfectly. We took 2nd place with Josh Frederick, Brandon Smith, and Dillon Zimmerman. We have over 20 hours of testing on our DS 450. The only problems weve had were self induced with a pressure washer. The DS worked great this weekend. See ya at the races.

atvlover
12-10-2007, 10:46 AM
The DS 450 has a great safety mode when the bike gets hot. It goes into Limp mode. It allows you to get back to the truck on half power. The Limp mode does not work if you remove the temperature sensor in the head. If the sensor is removed the bike will run until it melts down.

ThePhantomRider
12-10-2007, 10:46 AM
Great Job.....Finally someone else that has worked with these things to shed some light on the subject....

TPR

ThePhantomRider
12-10-2007, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by atvlover
The DS 450 has a great safety mode when the bike gets hot. It goes into Limp mode. It allows you to get back to the truck on half power. The Limp mode does not work if you remove the temperature sensor in the head. If the sensor is removed the bike will run until it melts down.

Same as on the Outlander and Renegade....

Last year the Epic Renegade was tangled with a motorcycle and the coolant hose got thrashed....the quad went into limp mode and got them to a pit so they could repair and continue the race....

This is the stuff they engineer into the bike so we don't suffer massive problems with ours....they also take time to get sorted out as well.


TPR

atvlover
12-10-2007, 10:56 AM
Yeah during the six hour race we into limp mode because of mud in the radiator. Josh wasn't far from the pit. He rode back and we presure washed the radiator. We did not overheat the rest of the race. The motor in the bike is strong. We were running a stock motor this weekend. We were as fast as anyone up the big uphills at Glen Helen. Like I said earlier, the bike works great. We have 20 hours on the first race bike. So far no engine problems. We have had a few minor electrical issues that are related to modifications we made to the bike.

Punk'd
12-10-2007, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by atvlover
Yeah during the six hour race we into limp mode because of mud in the radiator. Josh wasn't far from the pit. He rode back and we presure washed the radiator. We did not overheat the rest of the race. The motor in the bike is strong. We were running a stock motor this weekend. We were as fast as anyone up the big uphills at Glen Helen. Like I said earlier, the bike works great. We have 20 hours on the first race bike. So far no engine problems. We have had a few minor electrical issues that are related to modifications we made to the bike.

This is good to hear!

I just wish mine would come in already!!

atvlover
12-10-2007, 11:05 AM
I'm not sure when everyone is getting the bikes. I know that our local dealer in Lake Elsinore has two of them on the show room. Maybe they released them geographically. Either way when you do get it you wil be happy. When I was at the dealership I noticed that the production models had a lot of the updates we found during testing. It is good to see the factory responding so quickly.

See ya at the races.

Punk'd
12-10-2007, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by atvlover
I'm not sure when everyone is getting the bikes. I know that our local dealer in Lake Elsinore has two of them on the show room. Maybe they released them geographically. Either way when you do get it you wil be happy. When I was at the dealership I noticed that the production models had a lot of the updates we found during testing. It is good to see the factory responding so quickly.

See ya at the races.

What all did you notice they updated? This is great to hear.

atvlover
12-10-2007, 11:27 AM
The updated several suspension items. The most notable was the connection point of the upper control arms. The strengthened the supports. There were also several changes to the ventilation of the cooling system as well as changesw to the size of the oil filter and cover. There are actually a lot of other changes on the new bike. They have consolidated the fuse boxes to one location. Just little things we found while testing the bike.
I have to tell you that I have been very impressed with the factory boys. They are die hard race fans. I talk with the everyday. They are very interested in our feedback as a team.

ThePhantomRider
12-10-2007, 11:40 AM
See people, everything I have been telling you has been true. Most issues have been minor, many have been human error, and most, if not all issues discovered have been addressed on production units.

If Johnny deals with the Can-Am guys then he does indeed know their commitment to the product. They have been very up front during the final testing and release of this quad and my experience with how they have handled the updates of the Outlander and Renegade models from race findings by Epic are already in place on production models.

They do really listen to the riders.


TPR

joedirt
12-10-2007, 04:32 PM
Can-Am has been working on this quad since 2001 I hope that is enough time to get it right.:confused:

Dale@AGP
12-10-2007, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by joedirt
Can-Am has been working on this quad since 2001 I hope that is enough time to get it right.:confused:

Try it... you might like it!:D

joedirt
12-10-2007, 06:33 PM
The Warhorse would kill it.

ThePhantomRider
12-11-2007, 09:37 AM
Ok, FYI for those not paying attention....The history of the DS450 has had a number of incarnations since the program was launched back in 2001.

As I understand, initially they were going to target the 400ex market segment as the 450 market had not yet taken off.

They developed many revolutionary things on this quad that do not happen over night. It's not like one day someone said, "Hey let's bolt a frame together out of aluminum and see how that does and then a week later the frame is made...

As I understand, this had many lives, including a rumored 400cc twin 2 stroke to battle the Banshee (Strictly speculation but I have heard of a sighting at a track a few years back) but as the 2 stroke era started to fade and both the 400ex style and the Banshee style quads gave way to the 450 class, they had to make a change again.

I can tell you that motor development alone can take up to 3 years from conception to completion, then you have to test and re-test to see if you are getting the results you want, now you figure it took at least 2 years to get the chassis even built, create a new style front clip, develop all the alloy pieces so that they are as strong at least as the competion's steel units, put it all together, then work out more bugs, place the motor in the optimum space for balance, then redesign the frame again to optimize the handling, add to that design, change and redesign the shock angles and leverage ratios, etc. etc....and you have alot of time spent working on your premier product...THEN you have the balls to actually do a major announcement launch, and RACE TEST IT PUBLICALLY during your final checkdown process to eliminate as much possible issue as you could in a first year model....

Everyone needs to chill the heck out, the quad will be here soon, it will be damn good and you will have very few if any 1st year issues and certianly no major ones.

Those that want to hate, will because these are forums and many live to be negative. I for one, when the funds are available will have one and can't wait for that day.

TPR

OutlawBill
12-11-2007, 10:30 AM
what due you mean soon I saw two this weekend at SDHM

ThePhantomRider
12-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Nationally, they are not everywhere yet, just select places.

TPR

Punk'd
12-11-2007, 01:30 PM
Mines expected to be here in 2 weeks.