PDA

View Full Version : looks like theres another player with can am other than epic



rush racing
11-12-2007, 03:03 PM
check out these pics i found on atv four plays web site

Jersey450R
11-12-2007, 03:09 PM
its prolly natalie's bike.

CannondaleRider
11-12-2007, 06:29 PM
I know of a few other players.......;)

ThePhantomRider
11-13-2007, 12:50 PM
While Epic had the advantage in working on the project while desiging their arms for the bike, most others will have them available by the time the bike is out.

I think ATV Four Play was one of the first outside of Epic to get a bike...probably also forwarded because of the signing of Natalie.

TPR

brink400
11-13-2007, 02:00 PM
I havent decided if im going to get a ds or another ltr for 08, but I do know that whichever I get is gonna have ATVFP arms on it for sure, they have some great products. By the looks of it that thing is gonna have some good suspension, I love the geometry on that thing!

xsr_racing28c
11-15-2007, 11:16 AM
The front end looks great on the DS, I'm just wondering why Natalie would be running fox again seeing that he's been running the Elka factory shocks in 07.

I'm very interested to watch the game plan for the 08 season, there are alot of new players and it could get interesting!!

~Jay

hasbeenttduner
11-15-2007, 12:04 PM
Also see the front tires.That may not be johns 08 setup and maybe it is.Things change.

ThePhantomRider
11-15-2007, 12:05 PM
Well the Fox thing may be a deal that the team set up. I hear the Fox setup works real well on the DS, plus it keeps the weight advantage the DS offers even using slightly heavier steel arms. They are also easier to use in that they can be dialed in for different conditions more easily than traditional shocks.

Let's not forget as well, that John ran Fox back when he had his Gibson setup and won the GNC a couple years back.


TPR

CannondaleRider
11-15-2007, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Well the Fox thing may be a deal that the team set up.

Yeah. Like I said, there are quite a few new players with Can-Am.

Seemed like Josh wanted it kept on the down-low, for now, but have you heard about all the new players for Josh?

ThePhantomRider
11-15-2007, 12:40 PM
All I know is that I read on the front page here is that he is going to be on the MotoWorks team next year. Don't know who his other sponsors are.


TPR

hasbeenttduner
11-16-2007, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
, plus it keeps the weight advantage the DS offers even using slightly heavier steel arms.

TPR

No advantage.Just the same as every other quad out there with a-arms and fox shocks.Unless you are going to use stock a-arms and axel,which 90% that hit a race track won't,the on and on and on unsprung wt thing is for the most part gone.Same as the rest.

ThePhantomRider
11-16-2007, 11:12 AM
True, if you add a +2 and Fox's to any quad, the increase in weight would be the same. 2 pounds is 2 pounds or whatever the gain is.

That said, you would not alter the weight differential between the DS and the other quads, which is their advantage. They start off lighter and remain lighter. If the DS is 345 LBS, you add a couple pounds with steel, shed a cople with the shocks, you're still very close to stock weight.

If you went with Traditional shocks on the DS and Fox on say, a Honda, you would actually close the gap by a couple pounds.

The quad that could benefit the most would be an LT-R in that I have seen Chro-Mo arms lighter than the stockers at the same width, add Fox's and you shave a couple lbs of the Zuke.

The real change is unsprung weight, but again, the difference is very nominal and most of us will never notice the difference.

TPR

brink400
11-16-2007, 02:56 PM
That is probably Gee's quad. He is sponsored by ATVFP too, but he is running floats instead of POS elkas.

ThePhantomRider
11-16-2007, 03:26 PM
Nope, Gee is on the Epic team....they are running their setups exclusively.

Warnert is using (At least Natalie) the ATV4P setups.

TPR

quadjeff
11-16-2007, 06:39 PM
Motorworks/Can Am team will be using Holz/Fox set-up. Josh and Mark work well together. They start testing the first of the month... Josh will have Dustin Terry riding with them. Motorworks and bought him a semi and all the goods. Josh is really deserving and it is good to see him with the right people now.

CannondaleRider
11-16-2007, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by quadjeff
Motorworks/Can Am team will be using Holz/Fox set-up. Josh and Mark work well together. They start testing the first of the month... Josh will have Dustin Terry riding with them. Motorworks and bought him a semi and all the goods. Josh is really deserving and it is good to see him with the right people now.

Hey Jeff, that was all the information I had..... apparently keeping it on the down-low wasn't important like I thought I'd heard.

Next year should be another interesting year for Josh.

As a side note, is D-Sauce(I'm sure you've heard that nickname, but, Sas, incase you haven't) going to be in the picture like he had mentioned?

TWISTED DINLI
11-16-2007, 08:22 PM
what exhaust will all these CAN-AM riders be using?

spanky101
11-16-2007, 08:34 PM
im sure natalie will be running an hmf along with cody id imagine. And epic teams are running sparks, and im not sure about the motorsports team.

CannondaleRider
11-16-2007, 11:22 PM
Like mentioned....obviously, Josh will be running a Motoworks setup

spanky101
11-17-2007, 07:09 AM
whoops, thought it was motorsports, not motorworks. SO that explains the 3 factory supported teams...

JAKELTR450
11-19-2007, 11:09 PM
i was at dasa about a month ago and they had one testing. i asked about it and they said one of the satellite teams had them working on a motor set up. he didn't tell me which one?

spanky101
11-20-2007, 08:14 PM
its very possible that dasa would be doin the wernert racing team, as far as i know, the only person with a pipe sponsorship would be natalie with hmf. And sparks is doin the epic teams motors

hanes17
11-21-2007, 09:20 AM
Where did you hear that Sparks was doing the epic motors from?

ThePhantomRider
11-21-2007, 10:17 AM
I think it was implied off things like the QUAD magazine article.

They have worked with a number of companies both in terms of motor work and exhaust. This was done to get the builders up to speed on the model so that any racer will have a choice as to who will build their motor.

I don't think it has been detirmined, at least publically. who will be building motors for any of the teams.

TPR

hanes17
11-21-2007, 12:24 PM
Thats right. The Motoworks team does not have a definite decision on their motor builder.

spanky101
11-21-2007, 08:38 PM
When the ds450 bike was released and on the movie clip it the can am mechanic i think said the motors were goin to be built by sparks.

hanes17
11-22-2007, 10:32 AM
Why wouldnt he say that. That was there sponsor for last year. Their Hondas where built by Sparks. Its a new year now and there is nothing in stone yet.

spanky101
11-22-2007, 02:29 PM
makes sense, never thought about the sponsors from the honda/epic team.

ThePhantomRider
11-26-2007, 04:56 PM
The Epic/Can-Am DS 450 was built for show....nothing on that bike aside from the Epic stuff was etched in stone. Sparks was working with Epic on their Hondas and due to that likely had first shot for at least their exhaust setup.

As for who will actually build the race motors, it's up in the air as I understand it. I know that several motor builders have been working on race versions of the motors so in the near future we should know who is building the motors for each of the teams.

TPR

gibson400ex
12-01-2007, 01:13 PM
im guessing the reason natalie switched from elka to fox is because of money

ThePhantomRider
12-03-2007, 08:49 AM
Perhaps, but remember, his first championship was won on the first run FOX Float Evol's, so it's not somthing new to him.

TPR

manson98
12-03-2007, 04:24 PM
Johns team is running Fox/ATVFP Cuz there is a pic of Codys bike on ********. I just hope they can get these bikes running right and be able to stay together longer than a day cuz what I hear about these bikes is not so good!

ThePhantomRider
12-03-2007, 05:34 PM
I'm curious to the information you are presenting because I have been privy to this bike for some time now behind the scenes and compared to the competition, they have held up better in every case. Believe me, they had every available model for side by side comparison in every catagory including durability and they truly shined.

Also your posts are vague at best. I have yet to hear of any major mechanical or structural failures, only small things like wires and minor electrical issues.

Please elaborate with facts as speculation can be very damaging for all the wrong reasons.


TPR

manson98
12-03-2007, 07:03 PM
All I am going to say is I know that someone got one and by the second day it was broke. It also had a Problem from what I hear on the first day also.Now no I am not going to name any names and yes all I am going by is hear say, as I was not personally there.
But I do want the sponsored riders of these quads to do really well. So don't take it as I am bashing I just want them to step up the program cuz Josh didn't finish a race last weekend and Sage didn't finish the main. I don't know why they didn't finish but it looks really bad when someone like me that doesn't get to see these West Coast races gets on here and see's DNF. I want Cody and John to win on these quads!


One fact I have is DNF's look really bad when that is all alot of people will see first ! How many DNF's have the guys that ride them have? Will do some research!

Punk'd
12-03-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by manson98
All I am going to say is I know that someone got one and by the second day it was broke. It also had a Problem from what I hear on the first day also.Now no I am not going to name any names and yes all I am going by is hear say, as I was not personally there.
But I do want the sponsored riders of these quads to do really well. So don't take it as I am bashing I just want them to step up the program cuz Josh didn't finish a race last weekend and Sage didn't finish the main. I don't know why they didn't finish but it looks really bad when someone like me that doesn't get to see these West Coast races gets on here and see's DNF. I want Cody and John to win on these quads!


One fact I have is DNF's look really bad when that is all alot of people will see first ! How many DNF's have the guys that ride them have? Will do some research!

What broke?

manson98
12-03-2007, 08:30 PM
Do not know as I said all I know is it broke,that is all I know. But I know who it was and I know what quad I saw them riding and it wasn't the DS.

Punk'd
12-03-2007, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by manson98
Do not know as I said all I know is it broke,that is all I know. But I know who it was and I know what quad I saw them riding and it wasn't the DS.

You've totally lost me.

A quad broke, but it wasnt a DS?

I thought you said you knew someone with one and it broke??:confused:

manson98
12-03-2007, 09:05 PM
He got the DS it broke and he had to ride his old Quad.

Punk'd
12-03-2007, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by manson98
He got the DS it broke and he had to ride his old Quad.

Oh ok. Ask him what happened im curious to know if its not to much trouble since im buying one.

manson98
12-03-2007, 09:14 PM
I will see what I can do. Don't want to be to nosey.

ThePhantomRider
12-04-2007, 08:26 AM
I really wish people would read what I have posted....I have listed the causes for any issues the DS may have had during race testing and none were major mechanical or structural. These are all things that typically get ironed out after the quad is in the consumer's hands.

Some people get what they are doing with the public shake down of the DS and applaud them for being ballsy enough to take that step while others think it's stupid for a company to finalize their product in the eyes of the public.

I don't get how letting the public see you discover a possible flaw in front of them so the customer doesn't have to deal with it when they buy one, could be viewed as a bad thing.....I thank them because it's as close to a test ride as you can get with an ATV in most instances.


TPR

Punk'd
12-04-2007, 10:19 AM
I totally agree TPR.

But he claims he knows someone with one and doesnt know why it broke.

I'd like details. I dont see how its rude asking if you know the guy.

ThePhantomRider
12-04-2007, 10:34 AM
Punk'd, see your PM in a minute.

TPR

GE4x4
12-04-2007, 03:07 PM
Did you guys see the results of Sun ITP quadcross race?? Frederick with 2 DNFs, Sage a 7th and DNF, and Schell ran his 450R. What is going on?:eek2:

manson98
12-04-2007, 04:12 PM
Hey I am not bad mouthing them at all. They have sighed alot of good people and I want to see these people succeed on these quads! I just want them to get all the bugs worked out before next race season.

etccb
12-04-2007, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by GE4x4
Did you guys see the results of Sun ITP quadcross race?? Frederick with 2 DNFs, Sage a 7th and DNF, and Schell ran his 450R. What is going on?:eek2:

Schell may not be on the can am team next year,or now.KHJ or KJH that posts on forums is very very close to JS and has already posted in here that he may be doing something else.As far as the dnf's I guess they were not on the units from the new production line.:rolleyes:

joedirt
12-04-2007, 08:41 PM
There was another company that did their R&D at the track too. Not a good idea.

baubl
12-05-2007, 12:28 AM
Jeremy was on the Can am he was the only one that finished on the Can Am i was down there with Josh, Josh crashed the first moto and broke his break lever and the second moto DNS and Sage Bakers bike wast running good at all the second moto andhe pulled off the track

hasbeenttduner
12-05-2007, 08:18 AM
So Jeremy was on a can-am.Maybe KHJ will update us on his plans for 08 when they check in.
I still do not believe all of these DNF'S look good for can-am preproduction or not.As far as these things going on with other brands after they are released...well not at this rate unless you are comparing them to the china made or c-dale.I hope they get it worked out and the pro's inked for 08 have a good ride under them.

baubl
12-05-2007, 10:03 AM
hey you guys we were there with josh Drew rode his race got a 1st and a 6th in the expert class's ,never ridden an itp before the one moto was the first expert had never ridden , so some jitters didnt help anyway not here for that.

New equipt we've had each new quads ltr400, ltr450.trx450,and yamaha all being developed as I call it on the track the ltrs have taken two years to finally figure all the challenges of the quad, none of our problems have engine,frame an of choice the after market we've put on.
the fuel filter ,running c12 and various after market computers
have been the problem, now were smoking. so can am has some of the same issues that take time the only way there going to get r&d' is under true race conditions with real tough riders.

So stand by I'm should they'll dial it in, Josh's camp has great backers.
bobl

RosquistRacer39
12-05-2007, 11:04 AM
I was reading on the itp story and under fredericks pic it said he had a hard crash in the first moto but the problem caused by it didn't show itself til the second moto. Anyone know what broke?

And anyone knows true problems will show themeselves under true race conditions but all of tpr post suggest that can-am has been on top of it and will have it figured out so much that you wont have these problems with a production bike. It makes me leary of these bikes and not so in awe of tpr's posts.

LTR450_#67
12-05-2007, 11:46 AM
You guys need to chill out and let the quad get out to the consumer. I'm sure it will be a great quad. There is no perfect quad.......they all break at one point or another.....

Punk'd
12-05-2007, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by RosquistRacer39
I was reading on the itp story and under fredericks pic it said he had a hard crash in the first moto but the problem caused by it didn't show itself til the second moto. Anyone know what broke?

And anyone knows true problems will show themeselves under true race conditions but all of tpr post suggest that can-am has been on top of it and will have it figured out so much that you wont have these problems with a production bike. It makes me leary of these bikes and not so in awe of tpr's posts.

TPR is not lieing. Can-Am has been working very hard to work out all the little bugs before production.

Now that production has started.. Who knows if they have them all worked out or not BUT I guarantee if something breaks Can-Am will stand by their work and be sure that it is corrected.

Do you think they can possibly afford to fail with all of these new designs?

Jersey450R
12-05-2007, 02:42 PM
2008 DS's...THEY WILL ALL BE 1ST YEAR BIKES!! Sorry to shout but i keep reading this thread and all the bickering and getting at oneanother. All quads break, especially 1st year and early production bikes.

motox450
12-05-2007, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by LTR450_#67
You guys need to chill out and let the quad get out to the consumer. I'm sure it will be a great quad. There is no perfect quad.......they all break at one point or another.....


You are exactly right they all have problems, the biggest differance, and my biggest beef with Can-Am is how they marketed the product, and how it is now backfiring on them. They hyped it up for how long before it was out saying how good it was going to be, and the "best production quad" to date. Now they are racing them to get the "bugs" out of them and problems are occuring. It makes their "best production quad" look quite flawed and their marketing department look like crap. I truly hope they get everything worked out and the end product is as good as it is hyped to be, but right now Can-Am is not impressing many people.

RosquistRacer39
12-05-2007, 05:24 PM
Im not saying that tpr is lieing, Im just saying hes hyping these bikes up to be the best like can-am but they have not shown results. But can-am is like any other big company, if there is a problem they will deny it just like the rest. If they dont they will be going down the same road as cannondale. The production costs on that bike are to great to go replacing everyones bike if and when it breaks.

ThePhantomRider
12-06-2007, 09:24 AM
Look guys, my posts have never been meant as an argumentative point. I have just passed on factual news so that everyone out there can be informed.

I believe this will be the best 450 on the market, however that is my opinion and not everyone will share that with me, otherwise everyone would think that one of the other 450's out is the best.

I am simply stating these facts and nothing more.....

Can-Am has taken the risky step of public ridicule in order for us, the paying customer, to see things get worked out prior to us buying it. That is thinking differently, which goes with the process in creating the DS. Some people really applaud it, some look at it negatively, but again, that is choice and opinion and every point is as valid as the next.

Can-Am has not only went out and created a revolutionary quad, but they have taken a leadership role in the world of ATV racing being a title sponsor and setting a new benchmark with a NASCAR style factory program supplying quads and support to several teams that will be listed under the Can-Am banner, and at the same time, compete against one another, an amount of support only rivaled by Suzuki.

All of this is Can-Am's way to take a huge step towards being considered someone other than the big 4, but not just to match them, but to surpass them, and they are well on their way.


TPR

baubl
12-06-2007, 09:31 AM
dont kill the messenger, is what hes saying, maybe you guys should take on yamaha and honda they'res some fine factory support.
bobl

ThePhantomRider
12-06-2007, 09:36 AM
Hey, as much grief as I have gotten over the years, I would never shoot the messenger.

At least Yamaha offers some factory support, but Honda is a big dissapointment in that department....


TPR

RosquistRacer39
12-06-2007, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by baubl
dont kill the messenger, is what hes saying, maybe you guys should take on yamaha and honda they'res some fine factory support.
bobl

I agree with you on the yamaha support, but why would honda offer support when there bikes are winning all the races. People are going to buy them either way because they win races. Everyone who has got a factory ride were on hondas to get that ride.
I can see that on paper this bike looks to be the best on the market with all its innovation. I think its a great step foward on the evolution of race ready quads, but there are other quads that are also helping to push foward this movement as well. Do I think it will be the best? I have no idea, that remains to be seen. But as my hard earned money would be going to buy this quad I also believe in proceeding with caution on something that is this new. As previously stated all first year bikes have there share of problems.
I ride a 04 yfz and have had my share of problems with it, but can say that it has held up very well for the punishment I have put it through. Is it the smoothest bike out there? If you've ridden one you would agree that it is not and takes a lot of effort to ride. I hope the can-am is all its hyped up to be, but for myself I will wait and see how it performs. I wish I would have on my yfz. I do agree with tpr that all of these are opinions and people should decide on there own.

ThePhantomRider
12-06-2007, 04:21 PM
Yes, everyone has a different idea on what comfort and easy to ride means.

If anything the DS will be different because Can-Am actually took the time to work on center of gravity/rotation issues. They took many steps to make it light and where I think the biggest gain is, they actually produced a quad that has steering geometry that is far more correct than anything else.

If you ride a stock quad, then a stock DS, you may find that the DS doesn't handle like you think it would. Most say it tracks everything and the front end really sticks...They expect due to it's light weight that it should push and react slow.

After a rider gets used to the DS and they go back to a traditional setup, it will really amplify how bad the design is.

TPR

atvlover
12-10-2007, 11:21 AM
Hello everyone. This is Johnny from Motoworks. I wanted to shed a little bit of light on the last round of the Quadcross. Josh did crash in the first moto. In fact he bruised his ribs pretty badly. The problem in the second moto actually had nothing to do with the Can Am. It was completely our fault. When our mechanic prepared the bike for the second moto, he pressure washed the bike. He also pressure washed the air box. When he did this he did not realize that he washed the FMI module. The FMI has a rubber seal at the bottom of the casing. It is water resistant, however it is not made to be pressure washed. When we got to the line the bike simply stopped working.
Josh was not able to start the second moto.

We replaced the FMI and the bike works great. In fact we took second at the six hour race at Glen Helen this weekend.

See ya at the races.

RosquistRacer39
12-10-2007, 03:34 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. By the way who took first and third at the 6 hours? Is the results posted somewhere?

baubl
12-11-2007, 12:04 AM
go onto glenhelen.com and go under results then click on trackside then it will come up talked with Josh he sounded very happy with the 450 just wants to get some more seat time just like everyone esle

JAKELTR450
12-11-2007, 03:53 AM
Why did he race in the expert class and not the pro class? and who else was on the team? and was it second class in the expert class? i've been trying to look up info on how the race went down but can't find any.

baubl
12-11-2007, 09:59 AM
WHP R YOU TALKING ABOUT RIDING PRO INSYEAD OF EXPERT
BOBL

atvlover
12-11-2007, 03:50 PM
There was not a Pro class only expert. it is the same class all the pros rode. We had Josh Frederick, Brandon smith, and Dillon Zimmerman.

baubl
12-11-2007, 04:31 PM
what race was that atvlover, was that the 6 hr race?

JAKELTR450
12-11-2007, 07:45 PM
the reason i brought that up is thats how they have the results on the glen helen website. kory ellis first in the pro clas and a few other racers in the pro class, then they have the expert class which has frederick in it, and he got second in the expert class, behind someone else. and i was wonering why that was. i'm not bashing can-am i'm a former ds650 owner and think the new ds450 is great. i actrually saw them at the itp quadcross and they looked awesome. i also saw sage baker race one in my local race series about a month or two ago, and he kicked butt. i just wanted to know what happened at the race cause i can't find a race report anywhere.

baubl
12-12-2007, 11:05 AM
The six hour race had teams so josh was teamed up with Brandon Smith and Dillon Zimmerman and they where testin the bike and they said it ran really well so it was more of a practice than a race for these guys thats what I got out of talking with Johnny and Josh

CannondaleRider
12-12-2007, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by baubl
The six hour race had teams so josh was teamed up with Brandon Smith and Dillon Zimmerman and they where testin the bike and they said it ran really well so it was more of a practice than a race for these guys thats what I got out of talking with Johnny and Josh

So is Dillon switching? Or was this just a "happen to be able to" kind of deal?

baubl
12-12-2007, 02:04 PM
havnt heard