Electrical Question..

[rYan01400EX]

I am looking at running a 220V circuit for a Lincoln AC 225 ARC welder. It's 230A. I'm not sure what wire I will need or even what I need to ask for at the local Lowes. Can someone help me? I know how to run it but not sure what I need to run it.

[smr]

depends on how far you are from the source.

Look on the welder and see how many amps it draws. Most likely will be somewhere around 60amps.

if your not going very far (and it's rated at 60 amps) you should be OK with # 8 wire on a 60 amp breaker.

[Regular_Joe]

As stated above you need the actual current draw in AMPs, not the AMPs the welder can produce.

The 230A is what it can produce, not what it actually draws out of your electrical box.

[NorCalRacer]

Be careful matching breakers and wires. I'm pretty sure #8 is only good for 40 amps a leg, so I wouldn't go over that. If you have to go higher, invest in #6. The quickest way to kill an electronic device is to underpower it. Good luck getting set up.

[STEVENJANNA]

Depending on which model you have,

K1297 has a 50amp input current
K1299 has a 55amp input current

Either I would recommend a 60amp circuit.
A 60amp circuit is #6 AWG THHN using the 90 degree C. column on the NEC Table 310-16.

The plug on the welder is probably a NEMA 5-50P (alot of electric dryers use these plugs) so the receptacle you should need is a NEMA 5-50R. If you look on the face of the plug it should be embosed in the plastic. Depending where you're going to weld depends on where you mount the plug. I mounted mine right next to the panel and made myself an "extension" cord using enough 6/2 SJ cord that I could reach anywhere in the shop.

[JOEX]

Thread highjacking in progress.....:chinese:

Looks there's some knowledgable folks here:)

I'm building a detached garage and want to have electricity out there of course. My plan is to up grade the 100 amp panel in the house to a 200? amp panel and use the 100 amp panel in the garage.

The cable from the meter to the panel has markings that are difficult to read but i'm pretty sure it reads "3/2 & 5/1 Type SE Style O 75*" I'm also assuming it's aluminum because the wire strands are silver rather than copper.

The first question... will this wire be able to handle the 200 amp panel along with the 100 amp sub panel under 'normal' circumstances?

[STEVENJANNA]

Originally posted by JOEX
Thread highjacking in progress.....:chinese:

Looks there's some knowledgable folks here:)

I'm building a detached garage and want to have electricity out there of course. My plan is to up grade the 100 amp panel in the house to a 200? amp panel and use the 100 amp panel in the garage.

The cable from the meter to the panel has markings that are difficult to read but i'm pretty sure it reads "3/2 & 5/1 Type SE Style O 75*" I'm also assuming it's aluminum because the wire strands are silver rather than copper.

The first question... will this wire be able to handle the 200 amp panel along with the 100 amp sub panel under 'normal' circumstances?

The cable from the meter to the panel is 100amp service entrance cable (SE) yes it's aluminum. Here's what you do 1st, call your local utility company and find out what the peak KW (kilowatts) on your electrical service has been for say, the last 24 months. Take that # and divide it by 230 and that's maximum amount of amps your service has used. You're going to be surprised how low it is. Then you need to decide how many total KW you are planning on using in your new garage.

Alot of people are mislead to believe that they need more ampacity than they will ever need, because alot of people don't know what they're asking for. The utility company will only size your electrical service according to what "they" think you'll use. The next time you take a walk down your street, take a look at the transformer on the pole and read the number on it (30, 45, 70). Those are the sizes of the transformer in kw. Follow the wires and notice how many houses they feed.

Here's what you do, since you're more than likely looking for more ditribution than ampacity, run (2) 2" conduits to your garage, 1 for power and the other for pleasure(phone, cable, etc.). Pull 3 #3awg THHN and a #6 ground from your house panel to your garage panel. Put a 60amp breaker in your house panel (it's ok to put a smaller breaker on bigger wire but not vice versa). That will give you 100amps available in your garage if you ever have the need to upgrade the service in your house and all you'll have to do is change the 60 to a 100. If your house panel doesn't have enough space change it to a 42 circuit panel.

The bottom line is, proper distribution can go along way. You don't always need more "power".

[JOEX]

Originally posted by STEVENJANNA
The cable from the meter to the panel is 100amp service entrance cable (SE) yes it's aluminum. Here's what you do 1st, call your local utility company and find out what the peak KW (kilowatts) on your electrical service has been for say, the last 24 months. Take that # and divide it by 230 and that's maximum amount of amps your service has used. You're going to be surprised how low it is. Then you need to decide how many total KW you are planning on using in your new garage.

Alot of people are mislead to believe that they need more ampacity than they will ever need, because alot of people don't know what they're asking for. The utility company will only size your electrical service according to what "they" think you'll use. The next time you take a walk down your street, take a look at the transformer on the pole and read the number on it (30, 45, 70). Those are the sizes of the transformer in kw. Follow the wires and notice how many houses they feed.

Here's what you do, since you're more than likely looking for more ditribution than ampacity, run (2) 2" conduits to your garage, 1 for power and the other for pleasure(phone, cable, etc.). Pull 3 #3awg THHN and a #6 ground from your house panel to your garage panel. Put a 60amp breaker in your house panel (it's ok to put a smaller breaker on bigger wire but not vice versa). That will give you 100amps available in your garage if you ever have the need to upgrade the service in your house and all you'll have to do is change the 60 to a 100. If your house panel doesn't have enough space change it to a 42 circuit panel.

The bottom line is, proper distribution can go along way. You don't always need more "power".
Thanks for the info, it was helpful:)

The existing box is a Square D/Homeline #HOM816L-100c. There's a little room but not for another 60amp breaker. I'd also like to plan ahead for a future addition to the house, from a 1 bed 1 bath to a 3 bed 2 1/2 bath.

Also i'm currently living here by myself and i'm a miser so the KW usage is minimal:p If I add on and sell, the usage will most likely be greatly increased and i'd like the house & garage to be prepared for that.

I had planned on running two conduits underground just as you suggested;)

[STEVENJANNA]

Originally posted by JOEX
Thanks for the info, it was helpful:)

The existing box is a Square D/Homeline #HOM816L-100c. There's a little room but not for another 60amp breaker. I'd also like to plan ahead for a future addition to the house, from a 1 bed 1 bath to a 3 bed 2 1/2 bath.

Also i'm currently living here by myself and i'm a miser so the KW usage is minimal:p If I add on and sell, the usage will most likely be greatly increased and i'd like the house & garage to be prepared for that.

I had planned on running two conduits underground just as you suggested;)

Your welcome, I just don't like seeing people spend more than they need to on electrical equipment and service. Here's an example of what 200amps at 110/240 single phase can do. My parents have a 6500sq ft. (4 bedroom 3.5 bath) total electric house with a 1500sq ft. barn/shop/pump house (for the inground pool). It all runs very comfortably on the above size service.

[NorCalRacer]

Originally posted by STEVENJANNA
Your welcome, I just don't like seeing people spend more than they need to on electrical equipment and service. Here's an example of what 200amps at 110/240 single phase can do. My parents have a 6500sq ft. (4 bedroom 3.5 bath) total electric house with a 1500sq ft. barn/shop/pump house (for the inground pool). It all runs very comfortably on the above size service.

True, but it is more expensive to cut it too close. If there is ANY chance of addition later, overkill is ALWAYS the way to go, especially since copper isn't going down in price anytime soon. You can waste money either way, but if a wires too big you're only out the difference between the two, not the cost of replacing an entire wire. The 100 amp service you recommended is probably a great example of overkill, always the way to go with wiring.:D

For the thread starter:
I remembered I have a lincoln AC/DC 225 Amp welder/inverter just laying around in the shop:macho It claims 50 Amps draw. I have a 30 Amp breaker on #6 and have not tripped it yet. This is a new home, only a few hours of welding so far. But like stevenjanna says, I can always put a bigger breaker on later if I need it. I like to cut it as close as possible with breakers for safety. Good luck

[JOEX]

Originally posted by NorCalRacer
True, but it is more expensive to cut it too close. If there is ANY chance of addition later, overkill is ALWAYS the way to go, especially since copper isn't going down in price anytime soon. You can waste money either way, but if a wires too big you're only out the difference between the two, not the cost of replacing an entire wire. The 100 amp service you recommended is probably a great example of overkill, always the way to go with wiring.:D

Is there an issue with voltage drop with too large of wire or is that just with length of wire?

[450rJam]

larger the wire the less resistance

for voltage drop you use larger wire to compensate, unless the distance is so great you need a buck/boost transformer to up the voltage

2 x 12.9 (resistance for copper) x amps x distance(in feet one way) /cm (wire size)= voltage drop

[STEVENJANNA]

Originally posted by NorCalRacer
True, but it is more expensive to cut it too close. If there is ANY chance of addition later, overkill is ALWAYS the way to go, especially since copper isn't going down in price anytime soon. You can waste money either way, but if a wires too big you're only out the difference between the two, not the cost of replacing an entire wire. The 100 amp service you recommended is probably a great example of overkill, always the way to go with wiring.:D

For the thread starter:
I remembered I have a lincoln AC/DC 225 Amp welder/inverter just laying around in the shop:macho It claims 50 Amps draw. I have a 30 Amp breaker on #6 and have not tripped it yet. This is a new home, only a few hours of welding so far. But like stevenjanna says, I can always put a bigger breaker on later if I need it. I like to cut it as close as possible with breakers for safety. Good luck

The advice I was trying to give wasn't about cutting it close, but more about overkill as you stated. People who don't understand how electric works get hung up on Amperage and breaker counting. My guess is that JoeX is going to be building a typical 2.5 car garage/workshop. He will more than likely never use 50amps worth of electric let alone 100amps, unless he starts running multiple milling machines, welders, compressors, presses etc.. The advice I was trying to give is, run 100amps out to the garage and run it off your existing service. Don't upgrade the main service until your ready to add onto the house. Your existing service will be adequate. If you don't have enough room for a 2pole 60amp breaker, just move some breakers around till you do.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen other electrical contractors sell a home owner more service than they need. A person calls a contractor because they have run out of breaker space and they believe they need and upgrade. The contractor (for the sake of making more money) tells them that they need to upgrade from 100 to 200 amps and never explains to the customer about proper distribution. I call it stealing.

As far as voltage drop, generally as a rule of thumb, you don't start to worry about it till about 100'.

NorCal your 30amp breaker hasn't tripped yet because you're probably only putting a small demand on the welder. Try welding some 1/2 plate steel for a while and really crank that bad boy up.

[450rJam]

hire someone before you just start moving breakers around
you can over load a neutral by putting two hots of the same phase on one neutral and burning your house down


material list:

#6 romex (2 hots/ground) if exposed you will need to sleve it or use u.f. cable
50amp recept (use a range plug to save a box)
2 pole 50 breaker (for your pnl)
two 1" romex connectors
and a few staples


it would be better to amp out some of your single pole loads and combine two of your lightest loads to free up space in the existing pnl.