CRF & Stock Frames

[Jnine]

A few of the previous posts were concerned about how long a stock 400EX frame will hold up to a 50hp CRF motor. The answer is probably not very long. The Stock 400EX frame was only designed as a trail riding vehicle, and that didn't include much jumping. It's a very low grade mild steel with little tensile strength. Besides, why would you want the latest in 4 stroke motor development mated to old frame technology? The conversion can be done, but it's not a long term option. We are working on a 4130 replacement that will accept the CRF motor however.

[433rd]

Originally posted by Jnine
Besides, why would you want the latest in 4 stroke motor development mated to old frame technology?


There is not too much about the geometry of the 400 EX frame that is "old" technology. Yes, it could be stronger for racing applications (chromoly would do the trick) but it is one of, if not "the" best, geometry speaking, frame available from any ATV maker.

Look at the "New" Z-400 frame, Hmmmmmm. I wonder where they got the layout for it at.....

[forum]

Not Everyone can afford an aftermarket frame remmeber. considering Im doing so many things this winter to prepare for next season. I can't afford an aftermarket frame also. SOmeday maybe. But by then Honda might have a aluminum framed quad out. Im gusseting my frame all up and in my mind it should hold for a few seasons. Right now chromoly is not an option for me as it is to expensive. Ware did you come from and what shop or company do you work for?? you seem knowlidgeable but to just come on here and post 2 posts telling us we are all wrong and make us seem stupid might not get you the friends or customers you may be tryng to get. No offense. Im not saying I don't like you but some people may take it personaly as they have long travel and or a crf in a 400ex frame. WIch i will havge in the next few months

[Mxbubs]

Besides, why would you want the latest in 4 stroke motor development mated to old frame technology?


He, He......can you say 2400$?

Thats why!:devil

[forum]

Dito--------------^

[trx400ex]

THIS IS THAT GUY THAT OWNS ARENS!!!!!!,,, so when are you going to start making 400ex frames man?

[433rd]

Originally posted by trx400ex
THIS IS THAT GUY THAT OWNS ARENS!!!!!!

Hmmmmmm......... If that's the case, I wonder how much "new" technology will go into their frame??

Other than chromoly tubing and added gussets, it will most likely follow the stock EX frame geometry very closely....

Not saying that a stock frame is the best thing since the ball bearing but it still wins many upon many races every weekend. Gusset it, reinforce the front shock mounts and it will do pretty well even in racing environments. It will cost a heck of a lot less too.

[beerock]

look at his signature. JA

(john arens)

When he says new technology I would assume he means,
new sturdier designed motor mounts..
perhaps a lowered subframe?

Maybe a tad more rake, or less rake.

MAybe..

Maybe not....:)

[Dave400ex]

I don`t know but he will bring some good Information to the Site for sure.

Originally posted by WarriorMan
I don`t know but he will bring some good Information to the Site for sure.

Lets hope warriorman,,as long as the know it all'ss don't run him off..:rolleyes:

[Dave400ex]

Yeah. Nobody on here is better then him at knowing how to build Frames. Now all we need is one of the Guys from Elka.

[Crypted1]

You already have an Elka sales rep on the site. His name is Yann. Hold on and I'll find his screen name...

YannGumbo is his screen name. Works for Elka, sell me all my shocks!!!

[Dave400ex]

I did not know that. He never talks though.

Crypted1 clean out your PM's.

[Crypted1]

I DID!!

[forum]

Rico. Are you refering to me?? If you are i am sorry. i did not mean to come off as a know it all. All i was stateing is that not everyone can afford an aftermarket frame. He basicaly said. don't waste your time with stock frames in a conversion cause they are junk. And i stated not all of us have 30,000 to sink into a quad or have a race team supporting us. Im 17 years old and am still in high school. I feel im doing pretty well with my atv stuff. And yes It would be a great addition to the site if John Arens were a regular. He kinda struck close to home on both of his posts, thats all!

[Jnine]

In my earlier post I did mention "old" technology in reference to the 400EX frame. Maybe that was a bad choice of words and somebody called me on it. If it bothered anyone, sorry about that... It certainly wasn't meant to. I know we all just like to ride! What I was talking about was the effort Honda puts into that frame as compared to the CR lineup. I wouldn't expect anything other than mild steel from Honda anytime soon. In fact, they have flatly denied any Alum. frame for the EX, at least for the next couple years, and at their September dealer show they had no EX changes. Looks like Cannondale will still own Aluminum, and they are very good at it.

Some of you guys have guessed who I am and you are right. My name is John Arens. I don't normally post that part. Since you also know we are working on a 400EX frame, let me ask you guys this... What do YOU want us to make? I'll tell you this much.. We are working on a couple prototypes for the EX, and both are 4130. One person mentioned the going rate for an aftermarket frame is usually about $2400, and I am going to make his day. We WILL be offering a 4130 replacement EX frame for about half that price. No question about it. The only way we can do that is to make a LOT of them, and that is what we intend to do. Also, we are working with ELKA on the design of the suspension for this frame as well. We are sharing data with them, and in that way they can really get the shocks dialed in for your riding conditions. After all, I want the good stuff when I ride the local Cross Country or Motocross races too! Let me know what you want from us!

By the way, when we measured the LTZ and 400EX frame, they are nearly identical in almost every key dimension! Talk to you later!

[beerock]

How much for a 250r frame? Can I get the sub frame in different heights or is the angle of the subframe different?

I rode some laegers and lsr's and the seat felt lower.Could you let me know the options availible? I'd like to get all the myths out of my head about the subframe differences..

jnine, does gary wahl from queens NY ring a bell? He said he knows you and hes one of my friends . Let me tell you youd be very proud to see your frame holding all his parts together. his bike is mint and has a ct330 in it.
http://users.rcn.com/beerock/quad%20pics/ct330%20side.jpeg

http://users.rcn.com/beerock/quad%20pics/ct330motor2.jpg

[433rd]

Hmmm, an aftermarket chromoly EX frame at half the cost of the "others"... I just might bite on that one. Sounds like you have the right idea with semi mass producing them to help cut the cost down.

Ideas on what to make.... Well, the things that are of most importance to me are:

Weight, weight, and weight (chromoly is stronger than the same wall thickness mild steel so, you should be able to use a thinner wall and make it stronger, more rigid than stock).

A frame (if semi-mass production possible) that could be adapted for a range of engines without to much modification (it should help you as a selling point as well), I.E., Honda 400, 450 and Yamaha 426 4 strokes and Honda CR250 and CR500 two stroke engines just to name a few.

A little more room in the oil tank area for oversized oil tanks and after market steering dampeners clearance.

Obliviously well designed strength in critical areas including shock mounts and A-Arm mounting locations.

Keep the engine as low as possible (another oblivious factor but just thought I would mention it)

Keep the bump steer within tolerable limits and it will be a race winner for sure.

It's late here, that's all that come to mind right now.... I'm sure other things will come to mind in the AM.
:cool:

[Jnine]

Thanks for your input on the frame design.

When designing a frame (or any other component for that matter) I always try to keep the weight down if possible. I know there are other guys making parts that mistake adding material thickness (and thus weight) for strength, but that's not very often the answer. We already make very strong frames for the 250R that are in almost every case thinner & lighter than most of the other guys. On the new EX frame, I know we'll be under the stock frame in weight, and definitely much stronger. We had planned a few motor mount tricks, but one thing you fogot to mention was a possible radiator mount. I did not plan on a 2 stroke motor however. Without a counter balanced motor the CR 250 & 500 are not really that great for ATVs, not to mention the gear ratio & clutch are not at all designed for ATV wheel sizes & loads.

[racerx573]

I was wondering if it would be possible to get your 250R frame with the CR500 shock linkage set up, as well as one of your swingarms? Also what are your input on the narrow frame rails and the standard width ones? Is there a noticable handling difference if the right components are used? One last thing...can we expect a "long travel" front end from Arens any time soon?

[QuadRacer041]

hey john, rermember me!loldo theses look furmilier(sp?)

[QuadRacer041]

so the best money ive spent was this frame

[QuadRacer041]

more

[QuadRacer041]

:)

[QuadRacer041]

flyin hy at rausch creek, it took you a while john, but it was worth the wait.

[Jnine]

Hello again:

I'm not planning on making any changes to our 250R frame anytime soon. The reason I don't build a frame with the CR500 linkage is that the parts and shock for that setup cost as much as the entire frame, which we sell for $1800. Also, what many people don't know is that it also requires a special swingarm as well, and the top of the shock actually gets into the bottom of the seat pan. You want to know how the CR 500link ended up on a quad? It was nothing to do with performance... Mark Laeger told me many years ago that he built the CR500 link on his own quad for the dunes, ONLY because he was taking the motor out of his CR500 and putting it in his quad, and since he already had the bike shock and linkage he decided to use them rather than buy something else. That's it! After that, some riders must have thought since Leager had it on his own quad it must be good, and they had to have it as well. By now there have been quite a few built and the shock guys probably have got it worked out, but to me it's not worth the money. I try to make all our frames work with the stock parts, because that's what guys have already paid for. Another good example of this is the narrow frame rails. In some ways it sounds like a good idea, but then it forces you to buy a special set of A-Arms and the REALLY long shocks. Once again you have more into it than the entire frame. The narrow front ends also tend to roll much more in the corners. However, if it worked great the top riders would all be using it, and in fact they are not. Tim Farr just won another national championship and he can get whatever he wants, and he uses a standard front end, NOT the narrow one. Neither did Travis Spader, Shane Hitt, and I'm not sure what everybody else uses.

We are working on a "long Travel" A-Arm setup right now, and Andrew is checking everything about this setup on CAD. I have built a prototype setup and are running them through the full range of motion and testing to insure we didn't miss anything. To accomplish the longer travel we are actually making our own ball joint that will give us more "angle of misalignment" which is actually the side to side movement of the ball joint. We decided against anyones automotive ball joint for several reasons. (Not enough travel, poor quality, weak shank, unreliable manufacturing sources) You might be happy to know that we are also working very closely with Elka Suspension on this, and since we are sharing the design data, they will know exactly how to build the shocks for this setup. We plan to have these available mid winter, and I'll try to keep the cost down... Maybe we can have an EXRiders intro sale or discount! Anyway, I hope helps answer your questions.

[forum]

You have yourself a customer already. I will be waiting on your long travel system. Good thing elka has delayed there elite line or i would have already purchased the houser elka setup. Next season i also will buy one of your frames for my crf conversion. Im dead serious if you may think im not.

Will your system use a 19 3/8 inch shock or longer??
and can i just order the arms seprate because I am a canadian racer and can get the shocks a little cheaper.

Thanks. You are a great asset to the site

Originally posted by forum
Rico. Are you refering to me??

Nope not at all man,,,i've just seen lots of knowledgeable people get run off by members that think they know more than a person that actually designed a product. I was't pointing fingers at anybody,,except those that know who they are..:D :D is all good....:D

[Extremeracer167]

John,
One thing that alot of guys are switching to now is the Long Travel rear, which in my opinion is the best thing i have put on my quad! It handles SO much better, and can hit longs and other obstacles almost a full gear higher! We just got it dialed in and found out some secrets from Mike of Axis. But that is def. something u might want to keep in mind.

This also comes to mind. I dont really understand the whole "narrow" front end, and dont really care to understand it. As i am not going to get it, lol. Anyways, on the steering stems, i know leager makes them, but a Quick turn steering stem fot XC racing. Making the base of the steering stem wider, to get a quicker turn when u move the bars. I rode a 250R with this stem, and i LOVED IT!! It makes the turning so much easier! The only thing i dontknow about is if the bump steer would be worse with a setup like this?

PS. Its great to have u on the site!! I think its really a GREAT thing that u come on and ask us what we want in a frame. Cause after all we are the ones buying them, lol! Oh and u were saying that alot of the national champs dont use the narrow front end....your exactly right. Expecially XC. I think Borich may be the only one who uses it. Ballance and the Attitude chassis, i dont think use it.

[racerx573]

JG uses it. Wasn't the narrow frame the hot setup a few years ago?? I am wondering why most racers use the CR500 setup, if theres no adavantage to it? I have heard great things about it from quite a few racers, and thats the reason why I asked. Some guys will spend the extra cash when it comes to that stuff though. We all know this sport isnt cheap, thanks a lot for your help and input.

[Tommy 17]

wow its nice to have a person behind the scenes that really tells us how things come about!!! i can't wait to see the new 400ex arens frames and new lt a-arms...


i've seen a few arens 250rs now in person and man are them frames sweet!!!

[mxracer111]

John, how can i get in touch with you to order one of your frames? and what is the wait time and price for a 250r frame. thanks

[skinrider440]

what i would like to see is a rolling chassis. do you plan on putting those on the market? i don't race and don't need an extraspecial bike but i like to have the nicest bike around that doesn't cost a fortune, and is going to last a long time. and also when you gusset frames, i have always know that when you weld on something the heat makes the metal weaker. please let me know your info on that cuz i think that would be a smart thing for me to do.

[Dave400ex]

Yeah I would also like to see a Rolling Chassis, but let the Parts be sold seperate too. Like the 400ex Frame/Subframe, I would want +1 LT`s for XC, +1 Anti-Vibe Stem, and a Standard Swingarm for XC. I would like to see the long travel rear mods. If they are as good as everybody says, then I would make a Frame with it. You could offer a Frame with it or without.

If you could offer a Frame/Subframe setup for around $1,200, LT A-Arms for $650, maybe think about that XC Stem or just a Stem for around $250, and a Swingarm for $500, you would sell a bunch. That would be a full rolling setup for $2,600. $200 more then most Frames. All you would need are some LT Front and if you did the LT Rear Mods, a LT Rear Shock. Sounds good to me.

[Extremeracer167]

I know from Axis the LT rear shock is the same as the regular length shocks. And the LT front shocks are 100 more then the 16 insh shocks. So really a whole long travel chassis would be the ticket!

[Tommy 17]

john i would like to see u sale just a rear subframe for a 400ex with a 250r style grab bar... alot of us have bent one but don't wanna replace with pricey other companies... u'd sale alot of them if u made them alittle bit cheaper then the other companies...

[trx400ex]

#1 rear subframe that accepts 250r grabar, with or without battery mounts(most racers will go for the "clean" look if there battery is elsewhere)

#2 on your frame, use the desgin for the longer axis shock to be used, the stock location on the 400 is inferior i have heard(you would probably know though) also more travel is better, using geometry as close too stock will most likely sell the most units, so that is proabably what your going to do...i would by one of these frame for the price you said

#3 propeg mounts!

[Dave400ex]

Yeah I would also like to see the Subframe. For the Guys that can`t afford the whole Frame, or really need it, the Subframe would be nice.

[forum]

remember guys this frame are mass produced (sorta) so it may be hard to create so many options. I could be wrong. Also this is why he keeps the price down. so if he had to custom build each frame then he couldn't keeep the price down. Im not saying your ideas are bad, they are awsome. but theres a line were it goes from low priced to high. and with all these custom design's it may have to be crossed.

but the grab bar thing is a must! grab bars are cheap anyway. or he could include one. like just a chromoly one incase people complain. :cool:

[beerock]

john, I was thinking.

All of you know I dont have a 400ex, but i have ridden plenty of them.I feel the 400ex would improve just like the 250r does with a lowered subframe.

I think the lowered center of gravity would improve the handling.
Also the ability to throw the bike around.

John is it possible to lower the sub frame or lower the seat height and still have clearance for all the parts to fit right on the 400ex? say like a 1" lower seat height or sub frame?

I dont know how many of you have ridden bikes with lowered sub frames but I felt WAY more comfortable on it then a stock height subframe.

Is it possible for this to be incorporated into this mass produced frame john?

In my opinion I feel it would help you sell even more ex frames....

has anyone else had the pleasure of riding a bike with a lowered seat height? I'm sure there are some people that have ridden them and never thought about the height being lower.. If you have and y aliked it tell john!

i think we all have a good chance to get a frame built the way EXriders like. So dont be shy on suggestions...

I really feel the lowered height would be sweet.


or perhaps a adjustable subframe height?

[Pro400EXC]

Hey John,

A chassis that use's 400ex parts and a crf motor would be the ticket,since alot of ppl seem liek thats what they would liek to do..

Also RPM is making an adjustible sub-frame for the Raptor..they use a-arm type deals(like the lone-stars use to adjust camber) and you can adjust the height and all w/ that....

[beerock]

phat, i think I may try to modify my r frame with some heim joints or the like to make my frame adjustable.

beerocks thinking light comes on:p

[ESR250R]

Originally posted by mxracer111
John, how can i get in touch with you to order one of your frames? and what is the wait time and price for a 250r frame. thanks




i am considering your 250r frame can u post the wait time and a number to reach u at on the site. thx

[Atomic83]

while we are talking about joints, is it possible to replace the ball joints on houser +2's with heim joints?

[bradley300]

heres an idea, probably dumb and or impossible but i'll try any way. would it be possible to adapt the polaris PRO system into the stem and frame. this would do wonders for xc guys and would probably be the hot ticket for racing since there is so little bump steer.

[Jnine]

Hello again guys:

Wow... I'm glad I asked you guys questions about what you wanted. Here's what we have in the works..

ROLLING CHASSIS: I'm glad you said you wanted this, because Andrew (The main CAD guy here) tought it was a good idea as well, and we are going to offer that exact package for you. In fact, the person who replied in the post even hit the price range we were looking at! Our target price for that package is $2500 for the frame, steering stem, swingarm, and A-Arms. We have some of the parts already done, but the swingarm and frame take a special extrusion and lots of fixturing, and Andrew & Kyle have a lot of work to do on those. By the way, Andrew is the quad MX champion in the "A" / Expert class for Michigan, and Kyle is No.2. I think that helps make our parts better for everybody. Anyway, look for those parts mid winter. I will try to hold the price down as much as possible. In case you are wondering, I am able to keep the prices down by sheer volume. I build some OEM parts, and we go through so much material I can buy straight from the steel & aluminum mills. We are also VERY efficient. Some of the best 4130 comes out of Germany. You will like some of the surprises we have in store for you. These parts will have some pretty trick features!.

CRF / EX MOTOR & LONG TRAVEL REAR: You can bet we are aiming this new frame at the CRF crowd as well, and we are working with ELKA on a LONG TRAVEL rear end shock location. TO be honest I'm not sure how this is going to work out yet, but if it can be done without compromising anything else, we will do it.

SUBFRAME: Some of you guys had asked about a replacement subframe. We had talked about that but hadn't really put much effort into it yet. Subframes have lots of little parts to build and fixtures, and to be honest they are kind of a pain in the butt. However, if you guys think it is the thing to do, we can look at it again. ONe thing is for certain though.... You can bet we would use the removable grab bar. Some of the first 250R frames I built had the grab bar built in, and I thought it was OK, right up until one of the guys here looped out his "R" and bent the thing.. THat was problem No. 1. Than a guy called and said "Where do I mount my whip flag for the dunes?" Damn... I never thought of that. I was only planning on going to the MX track. SInce then we've built every one (And there have been a **** of a lot of them) with a removable grab bar. I will definitely do that for the EX as well.. There is an excellent chance we'll build the grab bar as well. In fact, we're getting into the aluminum with several parts, and we're welding 500 nerf bar sets this week, and sending them out next week..

The next thing is a lowered subframe.... I'm not sure how that would work... Remember there is a lot of stuff under the seat, and we would really have to be carefull doing that so we didn't create other problems. WIll the shock go through compression stroke without hitting something? Will the swingarm still clear the airbox? WIll the brake rotor and sprocket collide with something else and possible crush the silencer? How will the plastic line up with the front plastic? There are a lot of things to consider with this one before I would do it. We'll look it over for sure though. However, just because a few other companies do it doesn't mean we will. There are plenty of other companies that do stuff that is absolutely stupid, and they don't even know it.

WHAT WE WON'T DO: Build a crappy part. If it's not perfect it goes in the scrap bin... As you all know, there a LOT of part timers in this industry with a company in their garage and they are building some sh---y parts that can't possibly work. I can think of several A-Arms right now that I can tell by looking at them the angles are wrong (or reversed in some cases) and they can't possibly work. Heres a hint. If your A-Arms have lots of bends in the middle of nowhere and for no reason, it's usually because the guy got lost on his way to the spindle. Unfortunately a lot of those guys own a welder but should never put their hands on one again. I better quit with this one.. It just gets me worked up!

CONTACTING ME: A couple guys asked how to contact me, and you can email me personally if you want to. I don't think I want to put my phone number here however.. To me that would seem like too much of an ad, and I don't want to do that here. This place is just for riders like everyone here (including myself) to talk. I don't mind answering the quesitons, and if people like my parts that is fine, and if they like something better that is OK too. It's their choice however, and it always should be.

A QUESTION FOR YOU: I have a question for you guys.. If we were to do a subframe (with the removable grab bar of course) where to you want the battery? DO you want to relocate it someplace else? Also, what should it cost? I don't know what a stock one costs, or how much the other guys charge... Let me know, and Andrew, Kyle & I will go over it!

Talk to you later!

[Extremeracer167]

Most places will charge around.....175 for a new stock sub-frame. I also just found out that honda is now selling 2003 400EX frames for about $400!!!!! thats dirt cheap!! I wonder why they are doing htis!?

[beerock]

heres some better pics of the frame.

Bling bling
http://users.rcn.com/beerock/quad%20pics/Untitled10.jpg
^thats candy apple blue
http://users.rcn.com/beerock/quad%20pics/Untitled1.jpg
^thats just one sweet ***** frame

[Crypted1]

Please move the battery!!! Maybe inside the subframe rails. ON my 400 I have a CT racing alum. box. and hated it. I HAD to do some extensive moding. to get it the way I wanted it. This is a must for racers, I just don't understand why Honda sticks it out there by the wheel anyway.

[Texan32]

prehaps you could create a subframe and airbox combo. There alot of guys that offer an alloy airbox, but most complain that they just don't hold up. I think it was Rico who acually had the battery (which was relocated to inside an aftermarket airbox) bust through the bottom of the airbox. I think it would be a good idea to offer a STURDY metal or alluminum airbox that DOES relocated the battery. Though i have not had any problems myself, it (the battery) does seem to be is a very vulnerable location.

i don't know what it takes to design and build products (its been too long since my design class in college). But, i would think that 75-100 bucks for a GOOD airbox doesn't sound too bad. It should include provisions for the snorkle and a lid. And, a sturdy sunframe shouldn't run more than 175 bucks....all it does is hold an airbox and support your butt. To me, that seems pretty simple.

The OEM and aftermarket prices absolutely BAFFLE me. I have never come across an automobile where it is MUCH cheaper to buy OEM parts than aftermarket.

Just my ideas

[Guy400]

I know this is going to be blasphemy to most Honda riders but why don't you relocate the battery to where Cannondale puts it from the factory? The battery is located in the bottom of the frame in front of the motor. A battery is a weighty item and any weight that you can relocate lower in the frame improves the center of gravity.

[Extremeracer167]

why does everyone insist on moving the battery. It has NEVER once got in my way, or caused any problems being there?? I just dont understand what the big deal is? I say leave it where it is, so that way when u get the subframe alls u ahve to do it bolt it up and GO!! I know if i pay that much for a subframe i dont wanna have to mess with all the electricla crap. The only valid reason ive heard is the last one posted about moving weight to the bottom of the frame.

I relocated my battery to an aluminum box,,then the aluminum box exploded on me..ask mity mo his thoughts on aluminum boxes,,mine will probably stay were it is forever,,,relocating to the frame like the C-dale is a good idea too,,but if you have air scoops, rezzies, and a steering dampner up front like me,,you barely have room up front to wipe a booger..:huh

[Dave400ex]

WOW. A Rolling Chassis for $2,500. Now that is something I could see buying. By time you bought A-Arms, Swingarm, and Stem, then Gusseted your Frame and Powdercoated it you would be close to that. I bet you would be amazed at how many of those you would sell. Also if you are working with Elka when one of those Chassis's went out the Elka's could be made for it, and setup just perfect. Maybe have a Package with the Shocks included. I know I would love to have a Full Arens setup with Elka Shocks. Heck I think I would have to keep it in my room for a while. It would be to nice to Ride on. Also for the Guys that can`t get everything at once, try to keep the prices as close as you can as they would be in the Package.
Yeah I would also like to see a new location for the Battery. I'm not sure where they put it, but Casey told me the JB Racing Subframe did relocate the Battery and it was very nice. I think it would help keep the weight on the Subframe more even, and would just look better. Something to think about. With all the aftermarket boxes breaking I don`t like the idea of the Battery in a Airbox, unless somebody can make a stronger one. There has to be a better place for it.
Making a CRF Frame would be awesome, but wouldn`t it be better to have seperate Frames for that Motor? Guys with 400ex's won`t want all the extra tabs and stuff for the CRF if they don`t have the Motor. Heck at around $1,200 it wouldn't be a big deal to buy a new Frame if you wanted a CRF.
I really like how you are coming on this Site. You can see what we really want.

[Foxrage]

I think the package deal would be great and sell alot of them.

The subframe would be great but im not sure it is really worth the trouble?

Also what about do you make or have you considered a frame that has stock 400ex everthing including stock oil tank but will hold 426 motor and 250r radiator? This is what i am looking into but with the stock frame once i get money ill buy an arens if you make them.

[Mxbubs]

The subframes can be lowered. I have look alot at this. I am running the Yz motor, so I dont have the battery. I am also running the 250r rear brake caliper (this is on a 400ex frame John) so that also helps keep the brake components from destroying my air box and silencer. I even looked at shaving a 1/2" off my rubber seat grommets, and taking a fish fillet knife and trimming the top of my seat down a little. I was the one that said the aftermarket frame would probably run around 2400$. If you can kick them out in masses, thats great, sale them cheaper! I took it upon my self to build my own 400ex/Yz426 because I wanted to do it right. If you choose to build the frames for the yz, or cr motor, I highly suggest making them use stock parts for the 250r or 400ex, and do MAKE A HEAD MOUNT FOR THESE MOTORS. I dont like what John Houser has done, by building his Yz and Cr quads with parts from the R and the EX. It puts alot of us guys in a problem where we have already have dumped 10K in our quads, it would be nice to just take our stuff and switch it over to another frame and motor, without having to sale our stuff and start over again. You follow me?

One thing I have to say, I have spoken to you a few times on the phone, and believe you to be an honest man with integrity. I would however like to see you gusset your frames a bit more. I hear you on the weight issue. I personally cannot justify spending over 1500$ on a frame when I can buy an ex frame for around 300$-400$, gussted it, powdercoat, and get 2 years out of it before it starts to shatter. If I could get 5 years out of a chromoly frame, I could see the point, but of all the avid racers I speak to, they only get 2-3 years out of the frames and its time for a serious overall. I just dont see it.

Im just trying to give you an idea of what some of us might be thinking when it comes to purchasing an aftermarket frame. I tell you this, the one thing I know you can sell. Make a set of pro-peg nerf bars, with double wide and kick up foot pegs for under 200$ and they will sale like hot cakes. Make a subframe powdercoated for under 400$ and they will sale. Just as you hit own, and alot of other builders I have talked to, say its just not worth the headache to build the subframes. But if you are the only one doing it, that people would be willing to buy from, the money would come in. I know LSR makes them (total crap), I bought one, I know burgard is making them now, but no one really wants to fool with these companies. Tom Miller is making them for 550$ (good luck Tom) which is very high.

I highly suggest getting away from the male studded ball joints if that is what you are planning on using for your long travel arms. These male studs WILL brake or bend. John Houser builds nice stuff, but doesnt take the time to bend the lower arm just right for the shock mount, instead he welds a mounting bracket, and uses a male studded ball joint on the top arm. I like the Walsh's and the Hermmanns, I have the Herrmanns. There is no studded ball joint anywhere. And the replacement bearings take 5 minutes to knock out, and cost only 20$ to replace. I also run FK female rod ends on my tie rods, I had to machine spacers to stick between the rod eye and the spindle and the steering lobe to get the rod eye up off the piece to get a bind free suspension setup.

Good luck, I hope you do well!

Pics of my project

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27275

[QuadRacer041]

wow bubs, you gotta lot ive suggestions, you should make your own frames.

[Doibugu2]

This was the most intelligent and thought out thread I have ever seen. Great info guys.

[forum]

bubs i see your point but you could say that about everything. Why buy Fullbore plastic for $500 when i can get stock for $150?? or Why buy new beadlock rims when i cand get some 190's for alot less. Although his prices are higher then stock they are much lower then other companies and are a high quility frame. Compare to someone like lonestar. twices the price and weak as he|l. We all know lonestar stuff is junk. WHile leager Is good. Arens quality seems to be on par with leager or other top frame builders. Two guys that i race with (remmeber theres not many racers in Canada maybe 30 people show up to the races) 2 guys have arens frames. As far as i can remmeber the only two aftermarket frames I've seen up here are arens. They had both baught them used. One of them has devoloped cracks but remmeber they were bought used and any frame raced hard for 3-4 years will develop cracks i don't care who builds it. For now my stock frame will work for me. Mainly cause i don't have the money to go aftermarket.yet..

John aprox. how much less do your frames weigh compared to stock. And on average how much wait aprox would a few gussets add to a stock frame?? I know that question is kinda hard to answer :confused: but your the engineer:D
j/k

[Mxbubs]

Why buy fullbore plastic for 500$ Man dont I feel violated, I paid 540$! for mine.

Im just a "do it yourself" type of guy. I figure I can buy a new frame from honda, gussted it, and powdercoat it for under 700$. My buddy is a honda dealer, so I can get it at cost. So for 700$ I know I can get a least two years out of it, versus an aftermarket frame for 2000$ for 3-4 years. I just cant stomach that much for that extra year or two. But I do hear you, and I do see your point.

[Dave400ex]

If this Frame is half the price of others made, then it should be around $1,200. It would be worth $500 more for the Arens Frame.

[trx400ex]

you mean 800 more

[Dave400ex]

No he was talking about getting a Stock Frame, Gusseting it, and then Powdercoating it for $700. The Arens will be around $1,200. That's $500. lol

[trx400ex]

I see...

[gun32boarder]

Jnine-do u have Z400 frames in production just wounder how much would they be

[Jnine]

Hello again guys:

When I looked up the list price of the Honda 400 EX frame it was $670. If you have a dealer that likes you maybe you can get a deal on it. However, most guys will have to pay close to retail becasue I doubt one friendly dealer can cover us all. Then to ad gussetts has to cost AT least $100 for any competent person to cut them out (hopefully by waterjet or laser) and weld them in. I know I would not do it for $100. It's actually kind of hard to weld on the stock frame becasue the material is such a mild grade of steel it melts much easier than the gussett material and wants to undercut the weld. Kind of like th hot knife through butter thing. After you have them in you still have sandblasting which is probably at least another 50, and then powdercoating for another $150. This makes the total cost of the frame $670 + 100 + 50+ 150 = $970. Thats kind of a middle of the road number unless somebody really likes you and can get a deal. It could easily be more in most areas. Powdercoating the stock frames is also kind of a *****. When in the curing oven they leak from every hole and tend to screw up the powdercoat job. Just experience anyway.

LOWERED SUBFRAME: Andrew had a great idea for this one that can save you some bucks. Instead of lowering the subframe, why not simply shave down the seat foam? Maybe even use the foam from the 87 250R seat?

LTZ 400 FRAME: We're still working on the EX stuff! I haven't even taken one of those apart that far!

[gun32boarder]

not to get off topic but what about aarms and such r u making any of those products yet

[400exBro]

maybe this was said before but i miss it, but does arens have a web site where i am able to look some info about your products??

also does arens offer a +3 long travel a arms for a cannondale cannibal??? if so how much???

thanks for taking your time to answer all of our questions. you make great products and i like the idea of using robots over people (no offense to the workers).

thanks again

Bro

[Dave400ex]

John that is what I was getting to on the Stock Frame setup. You may get 2 years out of it, but you better be able to get 4 or more from an Arens. I think anybody not wanting to spend $500 more for an Arens would just be nuts. I know I will have an Arens some day if they are around $1,200.

[Mxbubs]

I cut the gussets out all by myself on my 99$ vertical band saw out of 1020 mild carbon 1/16" steel. The first thing to do is take paper and scissors and cut the paper out to be exactly as you would gusset it. Then take your cut outs and trace them out on your 12"x24" plates that you can get for dirt cheap, $5.53 at http://www.mcmaster.com/. If you dont have a saw, pay 50$ for an hours worth of labor at a machine or fab shop and have them cut them out. Everyone knows a welder, if you dont hire one. 2 hours of welding, 100$? Contrary to spoken, the mild carbon steel stock frame welds extremely well. Mild carbon steels is WAY more weldable than 4130 chromoly, or any other alloy for that matter. You can even stick weld it. Dont believe that do you? Find a good welder, it can be done, and it does hold.

Now that you have your gussets cut out for lets say at the most 7.00$ material, and 50$ for cutting and cleaning up, take your frame and have it sandblasted for, what, the most 50$? So at this point you got around 110$

Oh yeah, a frame, if you dont have one, most all EXRiders do. Buy it brand new, 670$. Buy it off ebay, $300-$400 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871901896.

Okay, get it welded, 100$ more, get it powdercoated, a standard color with no gloss 150$. So we got the material 7.00$, the cutting 50$, the frame used 350$, blasting 50$, and the powdercoating 150$. Thats around 850$. If you get a new frame from Honda 1150$ total.

If you have your own frame already 500$. I had my own frame, it only cost me around 100$ total.:D

My dad is a machinist and welder. Ill put my frame stick welded up against 2 years of use, versus an aftermarket frame for 3-4 years use. You can easliy find decent frames on ebay for under 400$. If you have the resources, the stock gusseted frame is the way to go.

Andrew? I thought I was the one that suggested the seat shaving!:D Did he beat me to that?

John, we welcome you here. I for one am glad you are now posting here. I dont mean to be a know it all, but in todays world where 99% of business are scamming by misleading claims or advertisements, to fraud the customer to rip every penny from their pocket they can, I AM HARD TO SALE TO. :eek:

I know we all are glad you are posting, but be prepared for being drilled, but not in a bad way. The guys here know there stuff, share what they know, which means they wont swallow poo poo unless it smells real good.;)

Thanks for posting with us, I have followed your articles, me and you have alot of the same views. Good luck in the business, and dont sweat the small stuff.:cool:

[beerock]

Originally posted by Jnine


LOWERED SUBFRAME: Andrew had a great idea for this one that can save you some bucks. Instead of lowering the subframe, why not simply shave down the seat foam? Maybe even use the foam from the 87 250R seat?


less seat foam is cool, I thought about that BUT when the sub frame is lowered the bike handles a little different. I guess it feels more like the front end being easier to pull up and when you turn the bike and lean into a turn it feels like your lower to the ground and it doesnt 2 wheel as easy as a stock subframe height, its hard to describe, I guess theres more weight lower in the main chasis then stock a height sub frame. Only thing I could say Is ride a stock geometry 250r and then get on a bike with a lowered sub...

id love to see a lowered sub incorporated into it, if its possible.
I know there are alot of variables. But if your gonna incorporate a air/battery box into the frame you could work with it and lower the sub frame, maybe not an inch maybe 1/2" or 3/4".

it may take more time to do that. But, everytime I ride one of my friends bike with a lowered sub It makes me really wish I had it.

[Jnine]

Hello again:

Back to this welding part..... You are right in that it is possible to weld on the stock frame, and perhaps a stick welder is the tool to use. However, there is no way I can (or even would) stick weld a part for some guy and then sell it to him. I don't even own a stick welder because I have no use or desire to use one. We all know what stick welding looks like from nearly everybody that tries it. When you try to weld the stock frame with a TIG welder and a 4130 bracket, usually your gussett is quite a bit thicker than the frame material, and it melts at a much different rate. SInce the much milder stock material melts much quicker than the more dense and stronger 4130, the stock material wants to form undercuts. You have to be pretty carefull to avoid these. You are probably one of the few guys who has found a way to make it work for a reasonable price. Then again your costs are based solely on doing it yourself at home. Your costs do not include keeping a shop open, paying for equipment, insurance, building costs, and all of the other business expenses I have to consider as part of the package.

As for selling somebody, I'm not trying to do that here. If I was really trying to sell sombody and squeeze every last penny out of a part, I would simply bump the price up to $2400 like my competitors. I think you will find that my prices on every single item I make are lower than all of the other guys. (At least that I know of) From a quality standpoint, I know my parts are as good as anybodies. In fact, we've been working with Cannondale since they started their project, and we bought virtually all of the competitions parts like stems, swingarms, frames, etc and tested them in several ways such as weld strength, design, and destructive testing. Guess what... My parts beat all of the competitions. Not many people know that, and it is something the other guys certainly do not want to hear, but it is a fact. If people like my parts that's fine, and if they like something better thats OK too. I want it to be their choice. I'm not the only game in town. (But I know whose game and parts are best.)

[forum]

bubs we all see your point. But. there are a few more factors

Weight

some people have no access to welders,machinists, powder coaters Ect.

An aftermarket frame also has different handling characteristics due to the rigidity, Some people want that.

Some people don't wanna spend the time to work on a frame themselves.

also, 4130 chromoly is not an aloy. Aloy refers to Aluminium. (I may be wrong, im not positive,almost sure) chromoly is just a seemless steal. when the steal(chromoly) is made it is pushed through a mold like the playdough spigati makers.:D while normal steal tubing (stock type) Is flat steal then rolled. This is what i've always believed. Jnine am i wrong???:huh

[OCCRA288]

Forum>

You are wrong in saying that Alloy refers to Aluminum. An Alloy is a blend of metals. Usually makes the product stronger and lighter. But in everything else I believe you are correct.


Jnine>

In the future I will definately be buying your products. About the frames, Propeg mounts would be a great option. I especially(sp?) like the idea of a rolling chassis. Here's what I would like to see.

1) Frame and Subframe maybe with airbox that can house the battery.
2) +1 1/4 inch swing arm
3) Choice of Stem lengths
4) Choice of A-arms +1, +2 ....
5) Better motor mounts

[forum]

O ok. Sorry. I have just always thought aloy was aluminium, Im not a metelergist<-or somthing

haha. Like i said i wasn't sure.

Thanks for corecting me. no I know

[Mxbubs]

Man I love this stuff.:D

[Dave400ex]

This has got to go to the the FAQ forum. This is one of the best threads ever. :D

[400exBro]

i agree with that one, mods zap this thread to the faq!!!

but the the other thing i want to know is does arens make +3 long travel a arms for the cannibal and if so how much am i looking at???

thanks

Bro

[mxdave28]

Good Lord dont Zap anything anywhere!!!! :eek: :eek: It took me three days to find this thread again:D well, i must agree this has been the best thread i have read in here ever since i've joined. I am currently trying to sell my R so i can move onto something else bigger? better? Yea sure my frame has cracks in it and sure, i've had it welded by a weld shop (didnt cost me anything,sponsor) :D BUT, after reading this and seeing Mr. Arens come in and give/ask for his 2 cents worth i might just keep my R and buy a rolling chassis. But, like others have asked and we know Mr. Arens is a busy guy so im gunna recap on some easy questions....(rolling chassis) Is there a choice of length in a-arms and sterring stem? and how about the swing arm is there a choice in the length also?
I have herd alot of good things about Arens frames and now that i have herd pricing i think you have another one sold. we greatly appreciate you coming in and spending time with us I thank you again Mr. Arens

[Jnine]

****o again guys:

There were a few guys with questions about swingarm length and steering stem length, and a few other things, so here goes. By the way, since this is a 400EX site, I assume most of the questions were for 400EX parts, at least that's what I understood.

SWINGARMS: A lot of guys wanted a longer swingarm to help with the weight bias of the 400EX, so most of the aftermarket swingarms are anywhere from 1" to 1.5" longer than stock. We made ours 30mm longer. Thats' appx. 1.25" longer than stock. Why 30 millimeters instead of inches. Well, since it is a metric bike, I decided to stick to metric dimensions, although it is purely a personal thing and completely irrelevant. From many years of good drawing practices I just hate to cross my design units. It's one of those things that makes Andrew just shake his head and say, "oh boy - I can draw it and we can make it either way".

A ARM LENGTH: For the EX most aftermarket A-Arms are made to be +2" longer. ON the 250R at first everyone was making them as+2" wider, but then sombody figured out they worked a little better if they also located the spindle +1" forward, hence the name: +2, +1". On the EX the +1" forward is not necessary because sombody at Honda actually had their head out from under the rock (or another place I can think of) long enough to realize that the racers could indeed teach them something, and they made the 400EX frame +1" forward already. So..... All we need is +2" wider for the EX. I have seen some guys making their bikes EXTREMELY wide (50" or more) and that is actually pretty screwed up. WHen the quad gets as wide as it is long it definitely wants to dance around more in the whoops and the ruts. THey don't track NEARLY as well when they are that wide. At 48 to 49" wide they will still track very straight through the rough stuff. You can get your butt way back on the seat, hammer it, and it will go where you point it.

STEERING STEMS: Remember, when you consider steering stem length and bar height you also have to consider which clamps you are using. Also the bar bend you are using. The stems we make when combined with the clamps we make are designed to give you a stock location for the bar mount. Bar bend is a personal preference thing however, and with all the bar bends available you can get nearly any heigth you want. I currently use either a 200X bend or a 250R race bend. We are playing with some 1 1/8" bars however. What bend do you guys like, and what do you like in a stem? Stock height? Anti Vibe?

4130 & Other material: The other person was right... 4130 is seamless, at least in the variety found in this industry. For those of you that aren't familiar with that, it means that when they make the tubing it has no seam or weld joint on the inside. You might have seen a pipe that has a welded ridge on the inside.. Thats where they took a flat sheet of steel, rolled it, and then welded the seam. That wouldn't work too well for us. Maybe somebody uses another version of 4130 for fabrication, but I don't really know what that would be. They used to make vehicle frames (pickups) from 4130 material, but they have changed that as well. Now they use several newer alloys that have some even better properties than the 4130, and they work VERY well with the right design. Do we use those in certain areas? Maybe..... Maybe not.......

RIGID FRAMES: You can design a frame to be too rigid, and we try to give them areas to flex. I think sometimes the other guys make mistakes here, and there are a couple ways to address it...

MR ARENS??? Did you want my dad to answer some of these? Just kidding!

Talk to you later!

[Extremeracer167]

NICE! thats all i ahve to say!

I run CR High Bars. The reason i would like a taller stem is this:
When running XC i have a 4 gallon tank on my EX. And i cant run Bark buster style handguards. And i cant run Flag style handguards either, becuase i have a Magura Clutch, and nothing matches up! SO if i want to run handguards i need to get a taller stem so the inner clamps dont smash my tank when i try and turn.

[Dave400ex]

Well for me I would want +1 A-Arms for Cross Country, and a +1 Stem for a larger tank or something. I'm not sure on Swingarm length. Stock would have a better turning radius correct?

I think all the Guys want a Anti-Vibe mount. The Bar bend varies a lot I think. Taller guys run taller bars, as well as most GNCC racers seem to have higher bars. Most mx guys use short bars though. Offer a few different styles.

You are giving us a lot of good info.

[OCCRA288]

Warriorman>
The longer swing arm will make turning really tight a little harder, but no very noticeable. The advantage to this is if you ride on any track that whoops out, your quad will handle much better than a stock length swing arm. See if you can find someone with a longer swing arm on their EX to let you ride their's and then ride your's. You will feel a DRASTIC improvment in the handling dept.

Jnine>
I too would like the option of having the +1/+0 a-arms in the rolling chassis. It would help you cater to a bigger market. I don't really know how the stem would feel but It doesn't matter to me, just put an anti-vibe mount with optional 7/8" or 1 1/8" bar mounts and I'll be happy. Thank you for visiting the site and asking our opinion on what people would want. That is what will help your business grow and produce quality products. Thank you for also supporting the sport that we have grown to love so much.

Wow great thread and just in time as I was beginning to lose hope on the tech stuff.

First Jnine thanks for taking the time to answer our questions etc and hopefully we can help each other by getting "real" info to you etc.

It must be diffilcult to try to design your products with so many potential uses (eg. MX, XC sand etc) and still be able to hit that sweet spot that makes everyone happy, good luck on this one.

Most of the ideas I am going to post are popular with many of the other people I know who ride/race but note that most of the guys I ride with etc are into XC but some are also MX and recreation. So many of us are looking to stay below 46" on width.

Some thoughts (some repeats also)

1. Long travel rear. Sice getting the Houser/Elka LT fronts (+1) the rear is obviously only tagging along. I have heard of some diff ways of getting this done but I am anxiously waiting for some sort of extended swing arm that is set up for the longer shock and travel since I will be upgrading the swing arm anyhow.

2. After pricing the LRD al frame your pricing is looking very good, and the rolling set up seems like a great idea. Will the frame accept other a-arms steering stems etc as many of us have these items allready.

3. Low rider sub frame. I have to agree with beerock that this would be a hot set up, but also think that it would be more beneficial if the geometry of the frame and suspension allowed a lower seat height (see Long travel above)

4. Replacement sub frames priced reasonable would be a big hit especially with the OEM set up and a real need for replacements.

5. Battery location seems to come up a lot and I have not seen a relocation set up I like yet. It seems that the current air boxes are truely not meant to hold a battery, and I dont want the battery cramping the air filter at all. I have to admit that the set up on my 89 warrior is better than any of the aftermarket air box set ups. But since you asked where I would want it put the battery somehow behind the air box. If you could fabricate a seperate "box" that would be the ticket IMHO.

6. Price. Cant forget this one since most everyone I know is more than tired of getting soaked in this industry. I hear your point about buying direct and in volume and I know many of your competitors are small outfits (and some larger) without the buying power, but most of the time it seems that the aftermarket products sell at the max the market will bear reguardless of quality or cost. Please see the advantage to pricing your products competitivly.

Thanks for your input and hearing us out, and did I mention a long travel rear swing arm :)

I highly suggest getting away from the male studded ball joints if that is what you are planning on using for your long travel arms. These male studs WILL brake or bend. John Houser builds nice stuff, but doesnt take the time to bend the lower arm just right for the shock mount, instead he welds a mounting bracket, and uses a male studded ball joint on the top arm.

Bubs, Interesting thoughts there. I have said this b4 but I decided on the housers due to price and the fact that I could bend them so why give roll all the extra $$$ for some bent stuff :)

But seriously I had seen that both laegers and houser used that lowered mount with the straight arm so I figured it should be working OK.

Have you seen the rod ends break? or is it the pressed in stud (thru the hole in the rod end) that you have seen break?

I am very familiar with the brand of rod end they are using and its very compatible with the one mentioned previous (I had sold both of these previously) and the ones in the housers are considered of better quality, but both are fine actually. Also note that you can replace either type of set up easily and inexpensivly but you will need to re-use or replace the stud on the housers and you could use either mfg's rod end also.

Also of all the arms I checked out with rod end type joints all used male threaded studs to screw into the a-arm.

[smith]

"I highly suggest getting away from the male studded ball joints if that is what you are planning on using for your long travel arms. These male studs WILL brake or bend. John Houser builds nice stuff, but doesnt take the time to bend the lower arm just right for the shock mount, instead he welds a mounting bracket, and uses a male studded ball joint on the top arm."

There is SOME truth in this quote...using a male studded ball joint (designed for automotive use as many a-arm manufacturers use) on the bottom a-arm is a failure waiting to happen. The bottom a-arm sees all of the forces and pounding and will be very prone to bending and breaking. Using this same ball joint on the top is not as big of an issue. The top a-arm is mearly a "guide arm" which basically tells the front tire where to travel and hold it in that path. So, in reality, the top ball joint does not need to be 1/2 as strong as the bottom one and would still hold up to normal abuse and wear. Where it may fail is in the event of a crash. But I don't know about you, but I would gladly replace a $20 ball joint in a crash rather than to have it hold up and bend the a-arm, or worse, F-up the frame! To sum it up, male studded ball joints on the top a-arm are stucturally fine, on the bottom, if the design isn't spot on, those same ball joints are asking for trouble (breaking or bending)

[YZROOSTINYA]

forum


chromoly is a allloy

chromium and Molybenum(sp?)

alloy refers to a blend of metals, like alloy wheels for cars and such.

i run pro tapers off my yz250 dirtbike. they are as straight as possible. i forget the bend. thats how i like em.

i would like to see the battery in the middle of the sybframe just because it is cleaner looking and centralizes the weight. i would like to see a set of kick up pegs also. nothing great. just something wider and a little longer than stock with a kick up. i sure as **** am not paying 300 for pegs.

[Dave400ex]

Heck I just want to see some very nice LT Arms, a Steering Stem, and a Swingarm. The prices on most of those parts now a days is just nuts.

[Extremeracer167]

why wouldnt the parts that everyone already has for a EX like a-arms, steering stem, and swingarm work on a aftermarket chassis. Im sure he wouldnt get away from making sure the stock components work,

And what is meant by a long travel swingarm. The new Roll swingarms are probly as close as your going to get to seeing a "long Travel" swingarm. nething more than that, and u wont have ground clearance. And u really cant do that unless u run a linkless shock, and i dont think anyone will be running a linkless rear end on a EX anytime soon. cause the airbox is in the way. Jus tmy thoughts

[dawzie]

Sign me up for a frame right now !!. Can you also design in it a mounting kit so we dont go crazy trying to put in our YZF's and CRF's ??

[Bean]

i hav thought of something, which i might end up doing

buying 4 new stock 250r footpegs, welding the 4 togather so u hav 2 double wide pegs, then ordering 2 sets of Nac's footpeg extenders, welding them togather, cutting off the middle tab thing on the 2 welded estenders, and bolting them to the peg, then bolting the peg to the frame, then PC'n the hole thing black or pink or whatever your fancy, and boom, u hav Roll pegs kinda

[400MXer]

Most of the ideas I am going to post are popular with many of the other people I know who ride/race but note that most of the guys I ride with etc are into XC but some are also MX and recreation. So many of us are looking to stay below 46" on width.

Not me.......i want 49-50" All MXers want a wider wheelbase. +2 or +3 a arms. while XCers need to stay slim.

Hmmmm so I guess you got my point :)

I just wanted to alert everyone to the fact that not everyone is looking for 50" width.

[400MXer]

I absolutely understand what you are talking about. If you are going to offer a rolling chassis, you are goin' to have to offer diff. a arm widths and swing arm widths.

[smith]

different swingarm widths????? sorry, the swing-arm stays the same, you can't ask them to change the swing arm to change your rear width, it's your axle that you need to change there!

It would be nice to offer a long travel swing arm :)

[400MXer]

different swingarm widths????? sorry, the swing-arm stays the same, you can't ask them to change the swing arm to change your rear width, it's your axle that you need to change there!

DUH!!! i mean the length of the swingarm. some people might want a +1 1/4 swingarm, TT racers want a shorter swingarm....i'm not sure what XC racers want.

[Mxbubs]

About the male studded balljoints on the top........I actually took a hard hit in a section of 3rd gear whoops and broke one top ball joint stud, and bent the other one. This was on a set of +2 Krypton A-arms. My bottoms where fine. Why did this happen?

First of all, because 3rd gear high speed whoops are dangerous and tricky.:D

Secondly, I believe it was because of the 2 degree tilt in the top of my rims had. I bottomed my suspension out, and the tilt of the rim caused the tops to want to tilt in even more, thus putting all the force on the top arm and spindle, causing the ball joint studs to fail.

I forget who it was, but I spoke to a pro-am racer a while back on the phone about a set of Lobo II arms he was selling. He told me he himself had broken several of the studs on the top of the arms, so he was getting away from this setup. Surprised? You bet I was, after all, this is Roll Design, supposedlly the best of the best. After hearing this, I went looking for alternatives for front ends. I liked the Walshes, but I didnt like the price tag. I like the Gibson's, I believe they are onto something. I have been told by several people that the stock width frame on the front handles better in the turns than the narrow frames, but the narrow frames take the bumps better. With the Gibsons, their design kind of compliments the wide frame at the front by bringing the arms straight out and the bending them down. How do they handle though? I have no idea, I am only speculating. I do know that if with the extreme bending that the arms do, if the bottoms arent the correct angle, where their bearing/pin bolt sits, the joints, whatever you want to call them, will bind up before the shocks become fully extended, thus robbing bind free long travel. I also didnt like their price either. I did however really like the Herrmanns, and the price so I went with them.

John, I want to reiterate, build a set of pro peg nerfs, double row width, with a kick up peg, sale them for around 200$ and they will sale like alcohol at Mardi Gras.

[Dave400ex]

If they do a Rolling Chassis it will just be all the parts put together, but at a better deal. XC racers will want standard arms and the MX and TT racers will want the wider arms. MX and XC may want a longer or standard swimgarm, but TT guys will want shorter. Also don't forget about the Steering Stem. Some guys want longer because of a bigger gas tank, or because they are tall. It should be a nice setup.

[Jnine]

Hello again Guys:

I've been reading all your ideas on a frame project and what you thought would be nice, and you will see many of those ideas in our 400 EXR frame. Heres some of the details, and some stuff I've found out:

GEOMETRY: As with our 250R Frame, we will be staying pretty close to stock geometry. Most guys want to bolt on the stock parts they already have, and I agree with them. Besides, the stock 400EX handles about as good as any quad ever has, and I don't want to screw up that geometry.

DIFFERENT MOTOR MOUNTS: It may be possible to offer an optional set of motor mounts for those that want to install the CRF. This probably means a diffferent swingarm as well.

SUBFRAME: I have been looking at the subframe project you guys asked about, and in fact I have started to design one. The big question is where to put the battery. I can get the battery inboard, but this seriously screws with the air filter location. I have seen a few subframes that also have the battery inboard, but I really think what they did with the airbox was a big mistake for the following reason. Whenever you wick the throttle open your motor gulps in a big volume of air. Thats why the airbox is so much bigger than the filter. When some fo the other airbox makers reduce the size of the airbox they DO NOT calculate the volume, and as a result you wick the throttle and the motor feels like it bogs. It bogs because it can't get enough air for that instant power. The airbox has to be MUCH larger than the filter to have enough volume. Several years ago another frame builder used to sell a tiny little airbox for their frame that had this same problem. THe only fix was to cut the back end out of the $300 airbox. That sucked, and I don't want to give you guys that trouble now by crowding the filter. ALso, lowering the subframe seems to be asking for trouble by crushing other components when they run out of clearance as the shock compresses. In some ways, the best place for the battery is right where it is.

BALL JOINTS You guys are right in that most ball joints suck. We're making our own to get away from the problems with the automotive ball joints. They'll be stronger than any other companies custom made front end parts.

[ESR250R]

hey john i talked to you earlier today about my frame (the yz yamaha blue one) that i ordered i dont remember if i told u but the motor i am mounting into this frame is a 86. i dunno if it makes any difference.

[beerock]

Originally posted by ESR250R
hey john i talked to you earlier today about my frame (the yz yamaha blue one) that i ordered i dont remember if i told u but the motor i am mounting into this frame is a 86. i dunno if it makes any difference.

theres no difference in the cases bro ;)

John, my one friend said something about changing the angle of the subframe to get the center of the seat lower.

is that a possibility?
my friend had this done on his lsr chasis.

[mxdave28]

i have a friend that has a ex with a 440 stroker blah blah blah....anyways...he relocated his battery up front. i havent had the chance to rip off his plastic yet and check things out for myself but he has the one piece race cut front and the battery is underneath along with the hidden stock switch...just another idea for ya's....ill try and get a pic of it soon....

[Jnine]

Hello again:

Glad to hear from you again. Sorry it was a little difficult to hear you this afternoon. I was doing some programming with the robot, and there were a few other things running as well.

Anyway, using the 86 motor is no problem, but are you then going to use the 86 swingarm? That is possible, but remember that swingarm used a split front end that also worked as motor mounts. We build the mounts into the frame, but you still need that piece to fill in the front of your swingarm. Just cut the lower ears off of it and you will be just fine. ALso, the 86 frame had a different length "dogbone" in the linkage. You will need the 88/89 "dogbone" or your ride heigth will be too low. The linkages are about 3/4" different in length. Anyway, we can talk about it the next time we talk.

JA

[Jnine]

Hello:

I haven't seen any lowered subframe or seat combinations. It might work.

JA

[ESR250R]

i was planning on switching to a aftermarket swingarm (89 length). i will make sure i get a 89 length linkage too.

thanks

About the male studded balljoints on the top........I actually took a hard hit in a section of 3rd gear whoops and broke one top ball joint stud, and bent the other one. This was on a set of +2 Krypton A-arms. My bottoms where fine. Why did this happen?

I want to make sure I am not confused that you are talking about the actual rod end male thread bending or breaking and not the ball bushing (same as in your picture, and also inside of the rod end) and or stud that bolts to the spindle.

I would think that the bushing pressed into the lower (or upper) arm would have more strength than the rod end with its male stud threaded into the arm but also know of bent frames caused by crashes with the same set up. One that sticks in my mind is on a raptor with std laegers +2 that took on a pine tree at around 30mph. The arms were straight, the rod ends bent on the stud, the spindle bent and the frame was completely trashed.

I am thinking that maybe a weaker link (ball joint) in that set up could have saved the need for a 800.00 retail frame (600.00 actual price).

One other point is that the only real diff from the hermann ball joint set up you show us (ball bushing w/stud installed into the arm top and bottom) and the male rod end threaded or bolted to the arm is the body of the rod end v/s the bushing housing machined into the arm. Therefore the only possible position for a diff in strength is the threaded stud of the rod end since both designs still use the same type if bearing and stud.

I dont which is better when you consider strength v/s a cheaper weak link in the case of a collision but since my Housers have both designs I would advise of such in the unfortunate case of a crash to that part etc. buy I am betting I would rather be swapping out a 20.00 rod end over a new lower lt arm or frame.



ALso, the 86 frame had a different length "dogbone" in the linkage. You will need the 88/89 "dogbone" or your ride heigth will be too low. The linkages are about 3/4" different in length Is that how they get this r so low in the rear? is there an option to do this on a 400ex?

compared to this one

[Wired]

wow, an hour later after reading this post from start to finish i must say this is about the most exciting bit of information ive ever read.... frames for under $1500, rolling chassis for $2500 and under, and finally the owner of a very respectable frame company taking time out of his life to get info from us. this was the best hour ive spent in a long time with out a doubt. John keep up the good work, i think i might have an arens frame coming in the near future no doubt. i'll be pm'n you, be sure to check it out and give me your honest opinion! :macho

jon

[Jnine]

Hello guys:

I am wondering if the riders you are seeing with a very low seat heigth are using a zero-preload shock. That usually sits quite a bit lower.

There are 2 BIG problems with the off the shelf automotive ball joints that most places are using. The first problem is the male threaded portion which often bends at the end of the threads. The material they use DOES NOT test as hard as some grades of aluminum. There are also so many suppliers for these components and you never know which one you are going to get from the distributor. Some come from Korea, Japan, Italy, Germany, and the US. They probably all meet the minumum specs for the cars, but that is a completely different use than what we are doing. They're only using them for steering, not soaking up jumps. The other big probelm is the stud. I know there are a couple companies making an A-Arm and using a heim joint, then machining a stud to fit it, and in that way they kind of make their own ball joint. From what have seen of broken studs (and I've seen a few) I suspect the material is not right for the application and they are either getting it too hard in heat treating, or it is stretching then braking. IN testing we found some of the other studs stretched IN the socket & taper area. A third option is that some of the balls are friction welded to the tapered portion of the stud. This tended to fail as well. On top of that, none of them have as much "angle of misalignment" as we need. All good reasons to make our own ball joint. In fact, the limited "Angle of misalignment" that most ball joints offer is why the term "Long Travel" front end is very misleading. They can't travel much more than they currently do because of the limits in the ball joints! The ball joint can't take much more angular movement. In fact, even if they could move much more, the little ball joints on the tie rods could not! Remember, they have to be able to move just as far also, and I haven't seen anybody replacing them with their "long Travel" a-arms. SO you see, long travel is really a misleading term, unless you consider an extra 1/4" of wheel travel to be long travel. Thats MORE than some of them are getting!. It really refers to longer shock stroke.

The only setup I have seen that can be made truly "long travel" is Laegers king pin setup. It gets away from any ball joint problem, but it does take a lot lof good maintainance, and it is REALLY expensive. (I think around $2000) Even with their limitations, it's prettty hard to beat a $15.00 ball joint.

I am wondering if the riders you are seeing with a very low seat heigth are using a zero-preload shock. That usually sits quite a bit lower.

John I have not had a chance to talk to the guy in the pic but have noticed that not all the zps or ssd set ups sit the same. The front set up I have (see in my sig) sits much lower than the rear and both are ssd. I was thinking that the main diff was the lt set up in the front, but will be talking to the shock people real soon to see if they have any info etc.

As far as long travel designs the one on mine is limited by the shock travel and the mech restrictions seem to allow a lot more drop.

Thanks for all you input.

[forum]

so are yours true long travel?? Why isn't the shock mount lower like the pro trax or houser a arms? or bent to lower the mounts like on hermanns or Lobo 2's. will these babys be ready for January cause thats when elka says there elites will be ready and i wanna have them at the same time if i can.

[QuadRacer041]

Originally posted by 440EX4me


John I have not had a chance to talk to the guy in the pic but have noticed that not all the zps or ssd set ups sit the same. The front set up I have (see in my sig) sits much lower than the rear and both are ssd. I was thinking that the main diff was the lt set up in the front, but will be talking to the shock people real soon to see if they have any info etc.

As far as long travel designs the one on mine is limited by the shock travel and the mech restrictions seem to allow a lot more drop.

Thanks for all you input.

lenny,
if your rear sits higher then the front and both are zps style shocks then they are set up wrong.
the front and rear should sit level. wayne from pep explained it me how to set up ride height, now keep in mind this is for a 250r, the way to do it is have the rider sit on the bike as close to the tank as possible, then have a freind use a tape measure and measure from the bottom of the frame rail were your footpeg is mounted to the ground, then measure from the bottom of the frame rail right before the frame curves upward by your lower front a arms to the ground. you want bothe front and rear to be the same. for mx you should be around 6.5" to 7.5" for xc from 7.5" to 9.0" depending on the course.
by from what pep told me you should always be the in from and rear. not sure what the height for other bikes are but that's for the R.
i will take pic of my R sitting on the ground with front and rear zps, the rear sits very low.
accourding to pep that is the correct way.

[Pro400EXC]

John....

I would defintley like to see a 400ex replacment frame,and a 400ex frame,that accepts the CRF motor,and R radiator..They would sell good,cause all us cheap ***'s can actually afford that project then......

Also,I seen some 400ex's w/ the PEP ZPS rear and all,and they still don't sit as low as R does in the rear....Heck,even stock 250r's sit really low in the rear?how is it?I don't mean to sound stupid,but why they sit lower than a 400ex,if they both have the same shocks and all?


Thanks John...

[QuadRacer041]

Originally posted by Pro400EXC
John....

I would defintley like to see a 400ex replacment frame,and a 400ex frame,that accepts the CRF motor,and R radiator..They would sell good,cause all us cheap ***'s can actually afford that project then......

Also,I seen some 400ex's w/ the PEP ZPS rear and all,and they still don't sit as low as R does in the rear....Heck,even stock 250r's sit really low in the rear?how is it?I don't mean to sound stupid,but why they sit lower than a 400ex,if they both have the same shocks and all?


Thanks John...

thats is true, the 400ex's do sit higher then the R and im not sure on the technical reason why, but my ex also sits level.

[Jnine]

Hello again:

One big reason the 400EX frames sit higher is because of the motor they use. The 4 stroke motor (EX, CRF, YZ or anything else) is quite a bit taller than the 2 strokes because they have all that stuff on top of the head. (*Boy that sounds like it was written by a 2 stroke guy*) Anyway, simply put, the motor itself is a couple inches taller, and then you have a higher air intake, higher and larger carb, and a few other things and the frame has to be designed for it all. It's simply the way it was all designed, and changing one part often effects the vehicle as a whole.

JA

[Dave400ex]

That is Chris Borich's quad and he does have a PEP ZPS Rear. He could have had it setup special for him.

[Mxbubs]

Jnine said

" ball joint can't take much more angular movement. In fact, even if they could move much more, the little ball joints on the tie rods could not!"


Very true, did you see what I did to cure that problem? Did you see my front end pics in this thread?

[bongwater200]

Hello......

Just a few comments on things that were mentioned.

Lowered subframe........ If you lower the subframe, one or more things are going to happen. You will either smash the living piss out of the silencer on the axle or caliper, or you will melt the plastic and seat if you keep the silencer higher. Also, your plastic will probably never line up right from that point on. There's a whole Pandora's box of **** that could happen if you mess with the rear subframe geometry and don't change other factors to accomodate your changes. Better, as several have stated, to just shave your seat down if that's the case, or use 1986 seat foam on a 250R. Other than that, what really makes the difference in handling is a lower center of gravity....... enter ZPS, SSD, TCS, etc.


Gusseted stock frames....... Sure, you might be able to get two good years out of a gusseted 400EX chassis, but at the end of those two years, you'll either be a good welder, or you'll have financed a good welder's new sports car! I used to run stock frames too, and although they held up just fine with good shocks under them, you had to fix cracks on a weekly basis. Sure, the fame may last a couple of years, but with CONSTANT maintenance. I am one of about 5 people now who have owned the FIRST Arens chassis ever built. This frame is like the Energizer bunny...... it just keeps on going. I can tell you, though, that I'm now on my 2nd Arens chassis, and I have yet to crack either one. The big thing, whether stock chassis or aftermarket, is to keep your shocks fresh and properly adjusted. Bottoming shocks CAN and WILL crack any chassis over time.


Ball joints...... First of all, they're really NOT ball joints. The parts that you're using as ball joints are actually TIE ROD ENDS from an automobile. ( Volkswagen Transporter II, most likely ) They were never built or intended to withstand the type of punishment that we put them through. They were built to withstand a push-pull load through the shank, not a "up-down" load. They were also never intended to have the ball socket "unloaded" as they are when used as a lower ball joint on a quad. These ends are only built to move a steeing spindle or a drag link from side to side, not to have the ball pounded out of the socket on a motocross track. At the time, they were a great alternative to expensive stock parts and heim joints. They have served their purpose well, but times are a changing and with long travel we need to have something better. ( John has that covered too. )


Ya know....... there's a few component builders out there right now who talk trash about each others products, and we all know who they are. We'll see where they are in a couple of years. Just remember that Arens has been in this business pretty much from the beginning. He was the first REAL alternative to Laeger's and Lone-star. ( "JP" at the time ) Quite a few others have come and gone in that time. John Arens is still here making the tried-and-proven, as well as making new advances. And at the same time he's doing it so that almost ANYONE can afford it. Hey guys, this is who you should be giving your business to, not some new "hotshot with a Millermatic" who claims to be the coolest thing since Rockem-Sockem Robots.

Peace out,

PB

[Mxbubs]

Robots? John, you got a robot? ABB? I operate a robot at work. Our robot is cool, sometimes it gets mad and out of whack and just starts slamming its clamping head on the protective cage.....



Lower subframe? Sure it can be done. Run a 250r rotor/caliper setup, and a pipe that offsets away from the frame, like the DMC, and you will never hit the silencer.


Shave some foam off the seat.


Stock gusseted frames? I have broke 2 chromoly swingarms, a subframe, 3 ball joints, 2 chromoly axles, bent 1 top chromoly a-arm, bent 1 chromoly steering stem, and just the other day, ripped and destroyed a rear hub clean off my axle. Ive never seen that happen. Guess how many cracks in my 99' stock gusseted frame? ZERO, NADA.

You have to gusset the right spots, and have the suspension right to help take the beating.

[stocktires]

400's are designed taller in the front I believe. Ever wonder why R riders need long adaptor brackets in the front to mount up 400 fenders? Was this done because of the motor kinda like you said John?


ESR250R, I recently made the switch to a gusseted fresh PC'ed 89 chassis. I bought an 89 Houser swingarm (on its way from TQS). You'll need the 89 250r DOG-BONE, not the wish bone, just the dog-bog. Expect to pay $20-$50 for that.
When I bought my new 89 frame I had an 86 swingarm that CW PC'ed for me. Instead of cutting up the stock bracket that connects the swingarm to the cases, I got my dad to go to Lowe's. He pick up the perfect piece of Pipe (My bolt fit through it PERFECT) And I gota friend to cut it down to what lenght I needed.
I would suggest doing that and haveing a much cleaner nicer spacer than cuttuin you stock one up. But then again, An 89' swingarm would be even better.

JA, I like what your doing (alot!). Asking use what we want/like. And selling a very good product for a very very good price! Thats makes ALOT of racers be able to afford to race and make the sport grow.

Im very interested in your LT arms. If I like what I see and there under $750 (PC'ed) I'll take a set :D

I like the idea of selling wide pro-peg nerfs. I got some roll pegs and nerfs in the mail right now (from TQS) And that set-up costed me about $480 or so. Thats a crazy price to pay for nice pegs and nerfs! That would sell ALOTA (like others have been advising).

A SLIGHTLY lowered sub-frame would be a VERY kewl Idea (maybe even just 3/8" or so). As soon as I heard of the idea I though of dirt bikers that shaved their seat foam, but that helps me none at all (Im kinda tall). I remember in a bike mag how a guy on a KTM lowered the ride height of his bike by cutting the weld where the bottom rail of the sub-frame met the frame, then chopping it down a lil, and re-welding it. It look really nice! But I understand that may not work on an R (or ex)

Keep in mind Alot of guys on here ride R's also (me)

but anyway...
Keep up the hard work! sry for the huge post

[QuadRacer041]

heres a pic of my R with a real zps shock in the back, up until about 2 months ago i just had a stock pep rebuild, notice how low the rear is yet look at the frame and how it sits level in the front and rear.with the zps rear i can probably pull up the grab bar like 5-7", these shocks have a huge amount of sag built into them.

[stocktires]

lou, do you still feel you get the same amount of travel with ZPS? 5"-7"s is huge!!!

[QuadRacer041]

well maybe im a exagerating a little but its a lot of sag but...o yea defenatly, when you rear end needs the travel it will most likely always have to fully unload first, in other words if i hit a whoop or a jump the shock will fully decompressed in the air. then when i hit the ground it will have the full range of travel.

[stocktires]

ok, I see, that must be purty kewl to preload before a jump on! One last Q, Are you happy with your pep? Would you buy them again is you were looking for new shocks?

[QuadRacer041]

i would never buy anything else, for pep all the way. not because the others arent good i havent even ridin other brands, but because my pep's work so well for me not just on my R but me 400 too, so its not like i got lucky with one set up.

[Dave400ex]

Have you started working on the 400ex frame yet?

[Jnine]

Hello guys:

We have started working on the new frame, and there will be room for a radiator.

The two pieces of front plastic mount differently because that is how they are made. Remember, the 250R front plastic has a couple pieces molded into it that actually drop down to meet the mount. On the 400 EX they decided to use brackets instead.

Trying to get a 400EX to sit and ride exaclty like the 250R is going to be quite difficult. Athough they both have some good things in common, they are a very different vehicle and they always will be. I think they both have some good traits however. WIth the right rider I think the "R" is a little quicker off the line and out of the corners, and it is definitley a little lighter. It might take the whoops a little better also becasue of a different front end rake. However, the 400EX may be a little easier to ride (It is for me), it's very comfortable, and I think it steers a little quicker, again due to the rake angle.

Talk to you later.

JA

Trying to get a 400EX to sit and ride exaclty like the 250R is going to be quite difficult.

I have been looking into this also and from what I see it appears that one of the many diff's are the swing arm mounting height. The EX appears to mount much higher on the frame and looks to be due to the mount on the motor as well.

Now thats gonna be hard to change and from some measurements on the 400 it seems the swing arm would have to be flat or worse to get the rear nearly as low as some of the r's out there.

[James70214]

John
As far as the lowered seat height if you have access at all check out the new Houser frame. My friend just got one for his YZ426 and it has an adjustable subfreame so you could lower it or raise it. There is a bout an inch of room to play with. Just an idea.

[Extremeracer167]

I believe the RPM subframes are the same way. They have hiem joints where the bolt onto the frame, and they look to be adjustable. They might only make it for a craptor, but u will get the idea :D

http://www.team-rpm.com/shop21.html#15

Originally posted by quad041
heres a pic of my R with a real zps shock in the back, up until about 2 months ago i just had a stock pep rebuild, notice how low the rear is yet look at the frame and how it sits level in the front and rear.with the zps rear i can probably pull up the grab bar like 5-7", these shocks have a huge amount of sag built into them.


How was the ZPS conversion compared to a full new shock? I just ordered front ZPS' and am getting a arms soon so i will only be able to afford a conversion for the rear. Hopefully its real good. Thanks:D

[QuadRacer041]

the convertion worked very well, it was defanitly worth the money, i would recommend it if you dont want to spend the money on a new shock.
i wanted the new zps shock because the convertion didnt have the sag like a true zps had, i dont really notice a differnce jumping but it handles better, and im able to use more power in the turns.
although ive only ridin it a few times due to an injury.

[dwhite]

will you be doing a YZ426F -400EX frame ?

[QuadRacer041]

Originally posted by dwhite
will you be doing a YZ426F -400EX frame ?

why dont you go back and read!

[dwhite]

sorry did not see anything that said yes i will be offering a 400ex chassis with yzf 426 motor mounts . So i figure i would ask .:D

[bongwater200]

Originally posted by quad041
the convertion worked very well, it was defanitly worth the money, i would recommend it if you dont want to spend the money on a new shock.
i wanted the new zps shock because the convertion didnt have the sag like a true zps had, i dont really notice a differnce jumping but it handles better, and im able to use more power in the turns.
although ive only ridin it a few times due to an injury.


hey 041......... what shock did you have converted to ZPS and who did the work? I would like to do the same with my '88 shock, but Baldwin tells me that they won't handle the loads? Elka makes a kit to do the same, but I'm not sure what it involves.

[QuadRacer041]

i had pep redo my 86 stock rear shock off my R

[Dave400ex]

I have talked to Mark Baldwin about having a ZPS rebuild done to my brother's 250r rear and he said they only do a rebuild for tt not mx. I was like well I know a guy that has one. He said it couldn't be for mx then. Wayne said the same thing.

[Jnine]

Hello guys:

Thought I would let you know what is going on with the frame project.

We went over a LOT of the details yesterday, and it looks fantastic. Andrew is working on some of the brackets now, and I think we have it ready for several prototypes, both with a CRF motor, and the EX motor. Really my focus on this is for the EX motor, because that is what most of use have, but we are definitely making it work for the CRF motor as well. Probably will only be a couple motor mounts to add for that. The CRF also needs a radiator, and we are looking at two options for that. We want the volume to be a little bit larger than the bike volume.

Right now we are planning on leaving the battery & subframe where they are. No need to change them. Besides, when we looked at changing the subframe it can screw up your intake tract.

Talk to you later.

JA

[Dave400ex]

Sounds great John. So the CRF and EX frame will be the same? So that means there will be a little extra space up front if we have a 400ex because of the CRF radiator? That sounds good. Then when we get to the point the 400 to to slow all we would have to do is change the Motor Mounts? Also are you going to sell the Subframe seperate? If you did, it would be smart to offer the Frame without a Subframe too, incase somebody already has the Subframe. Also how are the LT arms coming along?

[dawzie]

Is there room to put the battery up front like C-dale does ??

[Foxrage]

I noticed that you are talking about a CRF conversion with 400ex frame but i was just wondering if you were going to do the YZF.

[bmw500hp]

If what I am hearing is correct....By utilizing Johns theory, 400ex owners can presumably modify the current quad with confidence.

When honda releases the new machine current owners can retain the equity of expensive suspension and other static mods and upgrade the quad more simply by Johns anticipation of an eventual or current cr450 motor.

This obviously makes Johns frame a MORE DESIREBLE STARTING POINT.

Am i correct so far John???? Some riders do prefer the yzf426. How will this be handled.....

[Jnine]

Hello Guys:

To be honest we hadn't really looked at the YZF motor for ths project, so I'm not sure how it would work. I would not rule it out though, but if it requires a bunch of different fixtures it probably won't happen. It seemed like the trend was definitely toward the CRF motor, and that's where we thought we could take this project. In fact, if this project was ONLY to build a chassis for the CRF motor, we would not be doing it at all. The main focus HAS TO BE for the 400EX. Thats where the majority of the guys are, and we know that every one of them sold has a frame that is, lets just say, not Hondas best effort. That is being very generous.

ALso, if I expected Honda to be releasing anything else that would be competitive anytime soon, we would probably not be doing it. At their latest dealer intro they had nothing for us, and everything we know at this time shows no new model coming from Honda with the CRF motor. In fact, even if they did release a new sport quad with the CRF motor it WILL BE so detuned that you will not recognize it. Look at the 400EX.... It started out as a 400 Dirt bike motor, but when it arrived in the atv chassis it lost 9 hp. Honda is super concerned with reliability (thank god) but to gain that for the ATV sales they are willing to sacrifice power. They ALWAYS make that choice with ATVs. They hope we NEVER go racing, and it means NOTHING to them... SO.... I just don't see it happening with them anytime soon. The only way they ever make changes is if they are pushed. The Suzuki LTZ is a very good bike right now and they may be making waves at Honda, but only time will tell for sure. They do hate to get beat in the showroom... At least they are competitive in that way.

As for the battery, we'll be leaving it where it is. There are a couple reasons we have to do that, and when you see it you'll know why. Pretty trick though!

Anyway, hope that answers some of your questions.

Talk to you later.

[d-14 rider 27]

check your pm's john. later

[New-400ex_guy]

speaking of ltz400, build me a extended swingarms jnine hehe :D ;) and some other goodies

[Dave400ex]

Yeah Honda needs to do something, BAD. I'm sure the Suzuki being the same price is really hurting them. They need to make something with about 40 HP stock. Also I PMed you a long time ago.

[400exBro]

John- i will be willing to test one of the prototypes frames for the 400ex.?.?..:D

how much will they be running at??
And i remember you saying something about a rolling chasis(i think it was) coming out for 3 000 range?? when well this be released???

i didn't feell like reading throught 20 pages...

thanks

Bro

[QuadRacer041]

john, stop playin on the computer and build some frames!:D
i called the shop twice today and just got your machine. i need to talk to yea.

[DirtDiggler]

Does Arens have a website?

[Dave400ex]

Arens (http://www.arensbros.com) It's in the making...

[DirtDiggler]

What is the time frame for having this frame available to the public?

If I bought a frame for me 400ex and later on decided to get a crf motor would it be easy to do?

When is the Arens web site supposed to be officialy open.

[d-14 rider 27]

john, I pmed you again. whens the new sit gonna be up and running?

[DirtDiggler]

I have to say I did a search on Jnine and read a lot of his posts and I have to say I'm thinking about checking out his rolling frame offer when it's done. I have yet to see any other manufacturer as concerened with what his customers want as well as cost and quality. If the purchase goes as well as I think John Arens will have a customer for life.

How the web site going John?

[Dave400ex]

Anymore updates on the Products?

[Jnine]

Hello guys:

We did go over the new frame design again yesterday, and I think it is 95% ready to go into production. When it comes to verifying dimensions, I am kind of a nutcase, and I often check them three times, and then triangulate off other components just to cross check and verify them. It's easier than screwing up and having to redesign something later. Anyway the new frame is looking FANTASTIC and we've really put some new tricks into this one. Only companies in the aircraft industry would be able to find some of them or be able to copy it! Some of the trick stuff you won't be able to see, but they will make the end product better. This frame will also have another surprise that will come as a great advantage as well.

The website is also coming along quite well, and taht should be ready soon also.

JA

[DirtDiggler]

Sweetness.

[NJ300ex]

Have you set a final price on the frame yet?

[Jnine]

Hello Guys:
I am still planning on keeping ths frame in the $1200 /1295 range. I want to be able to offer it for apppx $1250.

Sound OK?

JA

John,

Sounds OK to me, Now put in my first order with the 60% off sponsorship package :)

I bet you cant wait to put that new frame on the new web site, looking like things are moving forward.

No all we need to do is see this new frame :)

Lots of luck.

[JOEX]

Most of this kind of stuff is beyond my wallet...but what all is included for $1250?

Joe

[ESR250R]

hey john how are those 250r frames coming along (expected mid january). i need to order up a set of a arms, swingarm, and steering stem from u but u havent returned my emails or my call yet.

[Jnine]

Try your email ESR.

Talk to you soon.

JA

[ESR250R]

thanks for responding i pmed ya back

[Foxrage]

Will that be the same price for the CRF frame? Also on the subframe will the battery mounts be taken off for the CRF frame? I can see you being backed up to your ears in orders. I might be one of em.

[Jnine]

Hello guys:

The CRF frame will probably be a little more. Remember unlike the 400EX it requires a radiator, and those are never cheap! We're checking volume and cooling area, and we'll probably have to make one. It also requires some extra brackets & motor mounts.

John,

I guess you werent considering my earlier offer to purchase your new frame :(

But seriously do get some pics and stuff up so we can check her out.

thanx

[Mxbubs]

Originally posted by Jnine
Hello guys:

The CRF frame will probably be a little more. Remember unlike the 400EX it requires a radiator, and those are never cheap! We're checking volume and cooling area, and we'll probably have to make one. It also requires some extra brackets & motor mounts.

For under 1500$ I would buy a yz frame. I suggest using the stock 250r radiator mounting dimension. Why? Because alot of guys like me that have already done the conversion bought oversized (300$) radiators already and would not be happy to have to buy another one to fit the frame.

[trx400ex]

So is the final design accepting either motor? In some ways thats good, but it wont look as clean if it does. If its in the range your aiming for, i will get one from you, but i will need to wait till after this season.

[Dave400ex]

$1250 sounds like a great price compared to all the other Frames out there! I would think about buying one if I had the money. How are the LT arms coming along? Any pictures? Also how much will the rolling setup be? Around $3000?

[DirtDiggler]

He said around $2500 in an earlier post.

[Dave400ex]

That would be the ultimate deal!