Should i use +2 or +3 for MX?

[atvrulz]

Hello,
I have a question that is driving me crazy.
I have +3 long travel a-arms now on my 2005 honda 450r. When i go through the 50" spacer bar at the local mx races, i have to get off the quad and lift up the front end and pull it through, other wise i would not make it through the spacer bar. Yes i can lower the rings on my shocks to make the front end sit up higher so the width is shorter, but my axis shocks are alot stiffer.
My question is, do most people use +2 or +3 on a 2005 honda 450r for MX racing? Someone told me that you should use +2, because with +3, you will slide too much in the corners compared to +2.
Looking for advice, and thanks for your answers.

[04TRX400EX]

I am not sure about the whole sliding through corners thing but +2 a-arms are the most common. Sometimes a +3 will not clear inspection, as you have discovered. I would go with some good +2's and run standard offset wheels. +2 a-arms will also not push as much in corners nor will they give as much bump-steer.

[mx1791]

you have it backwards. +2 a arms and 3-2 wheels will push more in corners.
get some 4-1 offset front rims. +3 a arms and 4-1 offset rims will handle the best and you will be at the perfect width to fit through the gate.

[atvrulz]

Hello,
Thank you for your answers so far.
I have 4+1 rims on my +3 long travel a-arms. Also, when I move the clip down one spot on my shocks to increase height and shorten width, the ride is a lot more stiffer on my axis shocks, even when I turn my compression all the way to soft and turn my rebound to the slowest.

[mx1791]

what kind of a arms are they?

[atvrulz]

Laegers Pro-Trax Front end

[mx1791]

hmm thats weird. my friend has pat browns old yami with a pro-trax front end and hes fine.

[atvrulz]

Does Pat Brown use a +3 Laeger Protrax front end?

Not sure why i cannot just drive through the 50" spacer bar with my +3 Laeger protrax front end with my 2005 honda 450r?

Maybe when custom axis built my shocks for my a-arms, they did not take that into consideration.

thanks for all the responses to my post!

[CannondaleRider]

"+3" should be fairly comparable throughout all A-Arm manufactures. With 4+1's you should somewhat easily clear 50" at Motocross ride height.

Do you have a stock spindle, to compare to the Protrax spindle?

[allstock]

i have gibson +3's and 4-1 hiper's and my bike is 49 inches wide and connor, lou only adjust his preload up 2 clicks and that was all he did with his shocks

[svahle]

Lets just do a little math here. A stock 450r is 46.3 inches wide. I am not certain but I believe the stock wheels are 3/2 offset (actually I think they are somewhere between 3/2 and 4/1 offset but someone please correct me if I get this wrong). With +2 a-arms and stock wheels you would be right around 50.3 inches wide. With +3 a-arms and stock wheels you are looking at 52.3 inches wide. With +3 a-arms and 4/1 offset you should be back to basically 50.3 inches wide (and likely a touch wider because of my disclaimer above regarding the stock wheels). With +2 a-arms and 4/1 offset you should be about 48.3 inches wide (see note above re: stock wheels). Obviously if you change the ride height it will affect the front width. Raise the ride height to narrow the quad and lower it to make the front wider.

So, if you are running +3 a-arms and 4/1 offset wheels it makes sense that you would be around 50.3 inches at stock ride height. You will be a touch wider if the ride height is lowered and a touch narrow if you raise the ride height above stock.

whats the with requirement for racing?

[allstock]

svahle by tape measure from end of tire to end of tire, 10lbs of air and preload up 4 clicks im reading 49 inches in the front and my rear is a +3 axle and is 48.. FoxHondaRider the limit is 50

so the 400ex is 45.3 inches so the max for stock wheels would be +2 a-arms if i'm doing this correct

[svahle]

There are a few more things that could affect width. The amount of camber/caster can affect the width. Also, if running shorter tires (19s vs. 22s) the width can be affected when also considering the camber and caster. The comments in my earlier post are general measurements with all things being equal. I also suspect that not all aftermarket a-arms are the same width even though they are said to be +2 or +3. In short, tires, camber/caster, ride height, a-arm brand, etc. will all affect the width to some degree.

allstock - I am not doubting your measurements. I was just trying to give some general guidelines. I suspect there are 450Rs out there with +3 a-arms and 4/1 offset wheels that are over 50 because of the above variables.

FoxHondaRider - I think your conclusion is generally correct.

[04TRX400EX]

Originally posted by mx1791
you have it backwards. +2 a arms and 3-2 wheels will push more in corners.
get some 4-1 offset front rims. +3 a arms and 4-1 offset rims will handle the best and you will be at the perfect width to fit through the gate.

Can you briefly explain why this is? I am not questioning your comment because I do think I have it backwards now that I think about it, but what makes a +2 with 3/2 offset wheels push more than a +3 with 4/1 wheels ... the wheels or the arms?

[mx1791]

Originally posted by 04TRX400EX
Can you briefly explain why this is? I am not questioning your comment because I do think I have it backwards now that I think about it, but what makes a +2 with 3/2 offset wheels push more than a +3 with 4/1 wheels ... the wheels or the arms?
a 4-1 rim is more inset to the spindle then a 3-2 rim.


Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
so the 400ex is 45.3 inches so the max for stock wheels would be +2 a-arms if i'm doing this correct
from my past experiances i have found out the front of a 450r is only like 44 inches wide, same with 400ex's. and stock rims are 3.5-1.5 offset, right in between 3-2 and 4-1. add six inches to 44inches and you have 50 inches, add 4-1's and your at 49 inches over stock rims. now everyone has different camber/castor setups so some people might be a tad wider then others becouse of this

the reason hondas site says the 450r is 46 inches wide is the rear of the quad. all there measurments are from the widest possible point of the quad.

[atvrulz]

I have Dunlop 20 x 7R tires and i think they are a slightly fatter than most 20" mx tires. I think this is my problem and if if get a standard 20" kenda or ITP tires i should be good to go.
At every race this summer, i was at the mercy of the tech people because i had to have someone pull up on my front end, as i drove through the 50" spacer bar. I dont know if that is legal to do or not.

[mx1791]

im guessing the tires you have are the ones that come stock on ltr's? yea they're fatter then most mx tires. maybe put on one of your buddys front tires and see if it makes a difference?

[Big - D Racing]

+ 3 arms with 4/1 offset rims is suppose to put the 450r right at 49" wide. It is what all the pros run, and the limit is 50"

[bwamos]

What rims are you using?

I know you said they are 4-1 offset. I jsut want to make 100% sure you are not using honda factory rims. Honda factory rims are 4-1.5 offset. 5.5 inched wide. That would move you from 49" to 50" wide. Hence your problem.

You could also add some air to the tires (up to 10-15lbs or so jsut for inspection) to keep them from bulging out as far. (makes the sidewalls tighter so the tire doesn't sag when weight is put on it).

That being said some front tires are also wider than others.

[atvrulz]

Originally posted by bwamos
What rims are you using?

I know you said they are 4-1 offset. I jsut want to make 100% sure you are not using honda factory rims. Honda factory rims are 4-1.5 offset. 5.5 inched wide. That would move you from 49" to 50" wide. Hence your problem.

You could also add some air to the tires (up to 10-15lbs or so jsut for inspection) to keep them from bulging out as far. (makes the sidewalls tighter so the tire doesn't sag when weight is put on it).

That being said some front tires are also wider than others.

I use 10" ITP 4+1 rims. I use Dunlop 20 x 7R tires. These tires look wider than most mx tires i have seen, and this is most likely my problem. I will just get some standard mx tires like ITP, Maxxis or kenda.

thanks, for all the feedback.

One of our local fast racers here in MN, says that +3 is too wide in the front because you tend to slide too much compared to +2. He said it is better to be at +2.

What do you think about that?

[400mafia]

can you just use those extended lugs they sell on ebay for like 30$ they say they add 1.5 inch to each side. anyone use them? are they any good?

HAHA that is one of the funniest things ive ever seen. A guy on here with a 2500 laeger pro trax front end and another guy asking about wheel spacers. But if you have enough money to put +2 a arms on and get rid of the +3s then you have too much money lol. If i were you I would make the pro trax you have work becuase I mean you cant get much better.

[atvrulz]

Originally posted by RoadRidin450r
HAHA that is one of the funniest things ive ever seen. A guy on here with a 2500 laeger pro trax front end and another guy asking about wheel spacers. But if you have enough money to put +2 a arms on and get rid of the +3s then you have too much money lol. If i were you I would make the pro trax you have work becuase I mean you cant get much better.

Good Post!
I will keep the Pro Trax and make them work.

[250rmike]

also they make the plus 3's for a reason. if you couldnt run them and fit through the 50in then they wouldnt make them

Yea man thats your best bet. Try to find narrower front rims. Dont take my word for it because I have no idea but arent stock fronts the narrowest rims you can get or do you already use them? Just try different stuff like that and differnt tires and it will work out but dont get rid of the pro trax lol.

[250rmike]

well from what it sounds like if stock font rims are 3.5 and 1.5 they are wider that 4/1 and will widden the bike

[atvrulz]

Originally posted by 250rmike
also they make the plus 3's for a reason. if you couldnt run them and fit through the 50in then they wouldnt make them

I thought some companies like Roll Design made their +3 Width long travel a-arms, for desert racing and not MX. And i thought the Laeger Pro Trax +3 was also made for Desert Racing. Both of those companies are out in California where they do alot of that type of racing.

[mx1791]

Originally posted by atvrulz
I thought some companies like Roll Design made their +3 Width long travel a-arms, for desert racing and not MX. And i thought the Laeger Pro Trax +3 was also made for Desert Racing. Both of those companies are out in California where they do alot of that type of racing.
i cant see the pro trax holding up well for desert. i would think the heim joints or w/e it has on the spindles would wear out. desert quads take a beating.