My ktm damage details

[xcracer36]

Here's some pics walsh race craft took of my ktm:
http://walshrc.com/KTM450.htm
I hit a tree with my left front tire going about 10-15mph. They are going to straighten my frame and make me some aarms. Btw its a 525, not sure why they put 450. Can't wait to get it back.

[Luecker]

That sucks.

Maybe they should have had some very non-pros like myself practice running into some trees before they put it into production.:D

[ccrider24]

That seems like kind of excessive damage for 10-15 mph. i know thats still a pretty good hit, and I've bent my honda frame at around the same speed as that, but hit between the tire and the bumper, nowhere near as badly kinked/bent, it was still bent though. They have to give somewhere. I wonder if a plated bottom would have kept it from doing that, like a piece of .080 cro-moly tig welded to the bottom?? I should be getting mine soon , I think the parts are in for the recall, I guess I'll be careful and not hit any trees:eek2: I wasn't looking forward to gusseting and plating my frame, figured they'd be stronger than that, but i guess it may be necessary. The main rail tubing looks to be very thin, is it???? like .049 wall??

CCRIDER

[krazykarl]

ya man thats ruff. i'm a big fan of the KTM , but i've never seen a frame buckle like that. ny buddy hit a dumpster doing like 40 on his yfz and it ripped the A-arms off, but didn't tweek the frame like that
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e145/krazykarl454/BROKE.jpg

[xcracer36]

Yeah me and mike walsh both agree that the aarm breaking was expected but should have never boke the frame like that. I not sure how thick the frame tubes are, I ask mike after he cuts it. The bottom aarm don't even look bent at all, I think they should have made a weak point to give in a collision or braced the frame rails or both. If you look at the rails where it bent there's no plates unlike on my honda. It does suck, other than this I love this bike to.

[ccrider24]

Cool deal, glad you could get it fixed by some top notch fabricators!! I pick mine up tomorrow, can't wait!! (Well actually i've been waiting for almost a month now). I had a honda with a hrc kit and gt thunder revalves/link, what can i expect for power/suspension, is it a tough transition bike/ergonomics wise????
CCRIDER

[xcracer36]

Originally posted by ccrider24
Cool deal, glad you could get it fixed by some top notch fabricators!! I pick mine up tomorrow, can't wait!! (Well actually i've been waiting for almost a month now). I had a honda with a hrc kit and gt thunder revalves/link, what can i expect for power/suspension, is it a tough transition bike/ergonomics wise????
CCRIDER
Yeah the guys at walsh are good people who know what they are doing, would recommend to anyone. I have '05 honda with hrc kit too and the ktm has about the same snap(maybe a little more) but revs longer. I have stock suspension on mine so its a night a day difference. I did not get a chance to play with the suspension settings yet but its at least as good as my yfz with long travel elka's. The ergonomics are great, seat is very soft and does not feel cramped. Did your dealer tell you they fixed the recall?

[ccrider24]

Yeah , they got the part today and fixed it, they said it wasn't the part they thought it was, it's the whole carrier, new one has more meat on it,they said that was one of a couple of parts they borrowed from polaris, go figure!!
Going to pick it up tomorrow morning, got 2 sets of hipers with new razor2 fronts, razor rears, and other set is a taller muddy race set 22x7x10 gncc's and 21x11x9gncc's,flex bars with powermadd handguards too. will post pics tomorrow!!

CCRIDER

[04TRX400EX]

Are you sure you don't want to change your story? Only going 10-15mph, huh? :D

The damage does seem excessive for that type of impact. I can't believe the frame would bend that easily. I hope your accident is not a glimpse of things to come with all KTM's (the frame bending/cracking easily that is).

[Dupontster]

Why are you getting walsh to straighten it? Shouldnt it be under warranty?

[joedirt]

I've seen laeger's frames bend in that exact same spot. Hey something has to give. Sorry to see that you pick the short straw. It happens to the best of them

[xcracer36]

I'm sure I was going around 10-15mph. Dealership told me warranty will not cover impact, I tried that option first. Then I tried to order new frame and aarm through ktm and was not able to. So I'm glad its getting fixed.

[ccrider24]

Pics of mine. I got it finally, first impressions are, It's too tall, rear suspension is too stiff ergos are good, should be an easy transition from my honda, it's tall, but doesn't feel tippy like my honda did stock. just did first oil change on it after 6 break in runs, it seems to have ALOT of grunt, but still pulls smooth all the way up in the revs.
Front outer brake guards will not work with 3+2 hipers, the 3+2's put it @ 46 1/4" wide up front. front end comes up easy if you want it to, clutch pull is oh so easy!!!! Riding more tomorrow will report after playing with suspension settings!!

[Bradracer18]

Sounds to me, like your a-arms and tie rods are made of better/thicker material than your frame(and the bolts attaching them too). I would try my hardest to make the a-arms or the bolts the weak point. That seems like a lot of work..having the frame bend all the time.

[54warrior]

Originally posted by ccrider24
the 3+2's put it @ 36 1/4" wide up front.


I sure hope you meant to say 46 1/4"???

[QIKLTR]

Originally posted by 54warrior
I sure hope you meant to say 46 1/4"???

LOL i was thinking the same thing

[ccrider24]

Yeah, sorry about that 46 1/4" up front, rode it for about 3 hours sat and some yesterday, this thing is a HOSS! I will get it on the dyno soon and see what it pulls, but guessing I'd say it has more power than my honda that had a full HRCkit and Rossier exhaust, running VP ultimate4.1 oxygenated fuel, and that dyno'd @ 47.4 hp, the big thing with the honda was it was all in a narrower band like a midrange hit, and this KTM just has tons of low end, about the same mid if not more, and just keeps pulling to the limiter. just spectacular, all the power i'll need for woods racing, Oh, and I haven't even tried the "performance" ignition curve yet, it's on the "soft" mode , as the factory refers to it as!!

Suspension is better than I originally thought, I've got Ohlins in Hendersonville working on a spring package to lower it a little, new rear spring and a longer tender spring.

transition from the honda was quick, I feel at home on it already, I have tried a yamaha yfz 450 for the same amount of time and never could get used to it.
I'll report some more later.

CCRIDER

[xcracer36]

Good review and nice pics. Make sure you post when you put it on the dyno and try the performance mode. Can you access the performance plug without removing the gas tank?

[ccrider24]

Oh , yeah,it's easy to get to 1 bolt and the hood comes off, and it's under there, or if you can get your hands in there through the fender, which I think I think I could, just reach i and unplug, somebody in the KTM site already hooked up a switch on the handlebars, and can switch between modes on the fly!!
I'm working on a HD belly skid plate as I type this. may have my buddy's company make them to sell, we'll see, its got a lot of bends/curves to it, more so than a honda 450 anyways.


CCRIDER

[chad6713]

which plug under the hood are you unhooking? There are quite a few of them under there. Why would you want to switch it on the fly?

[didntseeitcomin]

^^^^^Yeah, what he said.

[OutlawBill]

Originally posted by chad6713
which plug under the hood are you unhooking? There are quite a few of them under there. Why would you want to switch it on the fly? The CDI box has two modes soft and high performance

[SKOT]

ktm needs to learn how to build an atv frame.my outlaw is boxed in and built heavy in that area.

[54warrior]

Hmm, wonder if they'd sell me those '96 Warrior front plastics that are laying there in the backround???

[venison]

have you ever had a similar experience with another bike. i've taken a few pretty good shots like you have described on my yamaha. it had an ars fx front end with kfx tie rods and stainless links and would just tear the end off the knuckle wear the tie rod bolted up.
looking to buy one, but accidents happen and if he thing is just fragile i really don't want one.

[bwamos]

Originally posted by chad6713
which plug under the hood are you unhooking? There are quite a few of them under there. Why would you want to switch it on the fly?

Hard Mode for the holeshot and open fields. Soft mode for the tight woods where excess HP will just wear you out faster.

[SlOoT]

Originally posted by bwamos
excess HP

There is no such thing as excess HP :devil:

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by SlOoT
There is no such thing as excess HP :devil:

excess HP wtf

Totally agree, there's no such thing as that :devil:

You'll only use the HP you want by pushing the throttle and then when you get on a straight line you let it rip so HP are never enough :D

[D38 Racer]

It's funny that we always seem to gusset after it's broken allthough no amount of reinforcement could have saved that frame. I had my Honda gusseted by Doug Eichner in which he also added heavier belly pan fastening points, I also bought the Roll arms because of the boxed construction. In both cases I struck paydirt . . . I've taken huge high speed hits since then at the Baja 500 and Vegas to Reno races among others with no cracks or bends. Big dents and huge scrapes but no structural damage. My new KTM is going to Roll Design as soon as it arrives. Now that Doug is racing for Polaris I might have to find another angle on gussets.

[bwamos]

Originally posted by Quadevil
excess HP wtf

Totally agree, there's no such thing as that :devil:

You'll only use the HP you want by pushing the throttle and then when you get on a straight line you let it rip so HP are never enough :D

So a drag ported CR500 motor would make a great XC motor? ;)

More of what I meant is excessivly sharp power curve. One setting would have a broader smoother power curve (less "peak" hp) , the other would have a narrower and sharper power curve (more "peak" hp).

You are changing the timing curve not power potential.

A sharp power curve will wear you out faster because there is less "usable" horsepower in a wooded section. Great for the holeshot, but not so great when navigating technical sections as fast as possible.

If you don't think a spikey power curve will be a hinderance in the woods, then you should try racing a drag ported banshee in an XC race and see how fast you wear out. ;)

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by bwamos
More of what I meant is excessivly sharp power curve.

Oh, if that was the case then i agree with you.

I was talking very general about it.
But my opinion is more HP the better, as long as you can control the distribution of power and torque through the curves ;)

[coryatver]

has ktm given you a frame yet for posting this messed up frame everywhere

[54warrior]

Originally posted by coryatver
has ktm given you a frame yet for posting this messed up frame everywhere


LOL @ that comment. For pete's sake, the dude hit a tree!!!! What did you all think would happen??? Something had to give. Hitting ANYTHING at 15-20MPH is going to break something, let alone hitting a d@mn tree!!!! Of course KTM isn't going to just give him a frame. In my opinion, and theirs too, I'm sure, it was not an equipment failure. It was operator error, plain and simple.

[montycarlo]

Yes I agree something has to give. Similar instance and similar speeds back in the day on my stout old Warrior. Can't tell me those were built too light.

New Years Day... 2002 I think.

[pbell75]

show me a woods racer who hasn't it a tree and I'll show you a guy who has never woods raced.

Everyone that races XC has hit a tree before, if they haven't, they aren't trying hard enough to win. These bikes should hold up to a 10-15mph tree collision.

[didntseeitcomin]

A car can't even stand up to a tree at 15 mph, what makes you think quads should be able to. Use you common sense people.

Anything hits a stationary object sh-- breaks. Only a tank can go threw objects and not many.

[TWISTED]

Originally posted by didntseeitcomin
A car can't even stand up to a tree at 15 mph, what makes you think quads should be able to. Use you common sense people.

Anything hits a stationary object sh-- breaks. Only a tank can go threw objects and not many. I'm gonna argue, here.. A dozer does a great job with trees, too!!!

[N300exJ]

lol yeah but what size dozer? i dont think a d65 komatsu or a d6r cat will go through trees that large. gonna need something bigger.

[Toadz400]

I wouldn't expect the frame to twist/bend that easily. This is an XC model and the frame should be reinforced to take that kind of abuse. I understand the a-arms and tie-rods breaking but not the frame twisting. The frame should be the last thing to give on a quad. Or if the frames are going to be that weak they should at least be much cheaper than the others!

[ThePhantomRider]

This worries me because I really like the new KTM's but it looks like they may have sacrificed durability for the sake of light weight by using too thin of a tubing wall in the front triangle.

Couple cases I can site, while there is considerable damage to the a-arm, which should give out before the frame, and did in this case....the frame should not bend like that. I saw a Raptor 660 come into the shop and it had been driven off a cliff and smacked into a boulder on the left front. The a-arm bent a little and the frame tweaked just like the KTM pictured. This was a 20' drop of a 400lb machine onto the front left with a mild steel frame and the damage was the same.

Second I know that the DS, through initial testing and racing has taken a much harder hits to the front end and the aluminum frame was completely straight after being placed on a frame jig. Not to say it can't be done, but not only does the type and quality of material matter, but also geometric design. It may be that the KTM design doesn't allow the forces to be transmitted to several points but just to one which history will validate as being the primary cause of frame damage, no matter what type of frame you are talking about. This is why Can-Am stressed their design being able to transfer forces equally through the structure.

I really do hope though that this was just an isolated incident and somthing that can or has been addressed, and while it sucks you had to be the guinea pig, at least you'll have a fully gusseted frame and should be able to avoid future damage to that area.

TPR

[parkers30]

you never know the extra conditions that could have made this wreck cause more damage than another. If a tree or another hard object held the rear from swinging around any quad would have trouble coming through unscathed.... we need to know/see more before we start saying the frame is too weak.


Any word on how the tubing specs compare to the other 450's?

[ThePhantomRider]

You are right, it's very speculative, but I tend to believe the guy because otherwise he does praise the KTM, and I am a huge fan of the KTM and Can-Am's....Now if I can get a DS with KTM bodywork, that would be perfect....:D

Just looking at the damage, it looked like the tubing was quite thin....it may be somthing they didn't encounter in testing, and I'm guessing that the main structure of the frame is very stout.

TPR

[TWISTED]

Originally posted by N300exJ
lol yeah but what size dozer? i dont think a d65 komatsu or a d6r cat will go through trees that large. gonna need something bigger.

An 11 should do just fine!!!!

[venison]

if you would take a piece of 1"x.120 wall mild steel round tubing that is 3' long and a piece of chromoly of the same dimensions and weigh them they would be of equal weight believe it or not. the advantage to chromoly is that you can get away wih a smaller O.D. and wall and be of the same strength as a bigger, heavier, mild steel.
in a structure that is built fully out of chromoly if you were to loose a member of that structure it could lead to domino effect as seen in this case and i do believe that is why they do not use this product in nascar.

[ThePhantomRider]

It's all about creating a structure that can take most impacts and transmit them through the entire structure equally taking particular advantage of the strongest points.

Look at the John Force wreck, his frame had a weak point that had not been discovered, but after that all racers running that chassis had their frames braced in that area. Sounds good but it may end up leading to a failure in another area....again the domino effect as mentioned above.

My father in law has been building race cars for over 30 years, from NASCAR to Indy, to NHRA. There will always be a weak point and as power and speed increase or new situations occur, those weak points end up showing themselves. In this case KTM is a great builder, but new to quads and they went a different route from the norm and maybe learned somthing....I think this will be all rectified and probably changes are being implimented as we speak on the production line we may or may not even notice.

Remember, frame strength is more than rigidity, you do need some give and the material you use need to be able to have a certian amount of memory to return to it's original shape.

That's why Honda had to add in flex to it's early aluminum MX frames. They were very ridgid which was seen as great till the real world showed them different.

Or like in building a wall....a block wall is very ridgid, can hold alot of weight, but if the earth moves it will fail catastrophically...ad in rebar and now it can handle both load and torsional forces.

TPR

[54warrior]

Great response/answer Phantom!