Thoughts on Elkas

[ohsobad_chevy]

Alright, I have heard good and bad about Elka suspension. More good than bad.
I want to hear all the goods and bads from everyone about Elka suspension. :)

[bradley300]

as compared to what, or on what quad? if you have a 450, there is absolutly no reason to buy elkas. stock revalves are just as good and cost half the price. SSD is a gimmick and you probably arent going to use any of the extra adjustments anyway

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by bradley300
as compared to what, or on what quad? if you have a 450, there is absolutly no reason to buy elkas. stock revalves are just as good and cost half the price. SSD is a gimmick and you probably arent going to use any of the extra adjustments anyway

Not to start anything, but I'm curious to your thoughts on why SSD is a gimmick... its essentially ZPS for those that dont know. Just wondering.

I agree with bradley, I would just get revalves on a 450, and as far as elkas go, I think money can be spent better elsewhere, they seem to have very steep prices and put fancy names on devices already out there. They do have great customer service and they have excellent marketing skills, thus why you see them on everyones bike. They just dont know any better! I did have elkas, and since those I've rode many other setups, and now am not impressed with my elkas. My .02.

[bradley300]

all shocks sag if the valving and springs are correct, there is no need for an SSD spring, the shock does that on its own.

i asked the question to laz @ gt thunder on another site and i'll copy/past the conversation

it seems from what i have gathered, having the correct amount of rider sag is key to any good suspension set up. naturaly, any spring will compress or sag once loaded with a rider and sag is adjusted thru the preload collars regardless of if the shock is a SSD type or not. this makes me wonder if SSD springs are really needed or not, since all shocks sag.

so if you can get the correct amount of sag without using an SSD spring, then what is the point of SSD? is it a marketing gimmick, is it just easier to get the correct amount of sag with an SSD spring? is there an advantage with one of the set ups if you can acheive the same amount of sag with each? or does it make a difference as long as the rest of the shock is set up properly for either spring set up?

or am i completly wrong and out in left field and just dont know it yet?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 2 main uses for the SSD/ZPS spring setup.

1. Advertising gimmick.

2. Lowering a quad to the desired ride height when the shock was built with too long an extended length.
__________________
LS

[trailwart]

i have elkas on my 250r and i love them. havnt had any problems with them. from my experience with them i would recomend them.

[Flynbryan19]

Though I like the work Laz did on my rear shock I hardly find ZPS or SSD to be a gimick. If that were the case, then how come every other shock builder in the industry uses this setup? Axis, PEP, Motowoz, Fox, etc..... All these companys use a zps style setup. Seems to me if non-zps setups were the hot ticket that someone else would have stumbled upon it by now.

[bradley300]

thin about this, what does SSD do exactly? makes the shock sag. now go sit on you quad with stock shocks, what do they do once you put your weight down on them? SAG.

shock preformance is based on one thing. that is the amount of sag the shock has with the rider on board. with the correct amount of sag, the shaft has the correct amount of up and down travel. this is a simple, basic concept and is the same for every shock

you adjust sag by adjusting the preload collar. once the sag is correct, if the valving/springing is correct then the ride height will also be correct.

so think of it this way, if with the correct valving/springing you can get the correct amount of sag and by default, the correct amount of ride height with a typical set up, what more can you accomplish by adding an SSD spring? nothing. sure, say it makes the quad sit lower, and it does compared to stock shocks which are usually not valved for you specificly (meaning with your weight on them, the sag will not be correct). but it does'nt when compared to a typical set up, set up for you with the correct amount of sag

so by and large "SSD" was made up to woo you with new "technology" or used so shock makers can use the same shock length for multiple quads, and use the SSD spring to get the correct sag, out of the wrong shock (too long an extended length.

its not that people havent hit on the concept of non ssd shocks, its that they know people are wooed into buying gadgets wheter the benefit is real or perceived

besides, you can call anything that sags a SSD set up, since all shocks (regardless of a SSD spring) will sag on thier own with rider weight

[NacsMXer]

I agree with the fact that all shocks have a certain degree of "sag" to them but i'm not sold that SSD/ZPS is a marketing gimmick per se.

I have run PEP ZPS shocks for several years now. The way I see the ZPS feature is sort of like "slack" in the beginning of the shock's travel. This is similar to any other shock's sag but a little more extreme. The ZPS spring allows the quad to sag under its own static weight; when you get on the suspension will "sag" even more so this must be considered when you set it up.

When set with a low ride height, say for MX use, you can pick up the front/rear end and get a good couple inches or more before the tires even leave the ground. Having tires on the ground longer translates into more opportunities to either steer or get traction when you need to. Same thing with weight transfer. When you're hard on the gas, the ZPS in the front shocks takes up the travel and keeps the front tires in contact with the ground. The same quad without ZPS would already be wheelying.

This is one of those things that is hard to explain but easy to discern after you have ridden with and without ZPS. It is one of those little features you come to appreciate after you figure out what it really does for you. It makes for an incredibly simple ride height adjustment but is by no means all that it does.

I'm not looking to stir the pot here, just expressing my own subjective opinion on the matter is all :p ;)

[04TRX400EX]

I have a feeling that this thread is going to end up like every other discussion on Elka's with people getting into post-fights about why Elka is great or crap and why they're correct.

That being said, I have enjoyed my Elka's but probably would not buy them again. They are built very well (to me anyways) and if the valving is correct, they make a huge difference over stock, at least on a non-450 quad that doesn't have good shocks to start. While I do not agree with what Bradley300 said about SSD/ZPS being useless (cause I think it's a great feature), stock revalves on a YFZ or like shock serve the purpose well and cost less than half of a comparable aftermarket shock, especially if you are not changing the a-arms to LT or whatever.

[bradley300]

nah, no arguing, just posting my informative opinion, and listening to others

[bradley300]

Originally posted by NacsMXer
I agree with the fact that all shocks have a certain degree of "sag" to them but i'm not sold that SSD/ZPS is a marketing gimmick per se.

I have run PEP ZPS shocks for several years now. The way I see the ZPS feature is sort of like "slack" in the beginning of the shock's travel. This is similar to any other shock's sag but a little more extreme. The ZPS spring allows the quad to sag under its own static weight;

When set with a low ride height, say for MX use, you can pick up the front/rear end and get a good couple inches or more before the tires even leave the ground.

i see what you are saying, but remeber, nothing about shocks matters unless you are on the quad with your weight on the shocks.

there is also 1 limiting facor with all shocks, and that is ride height. with either set up you can get the same ride height and same sag numbers, so what is the point of SSD if you can get the same results without it? sag is sag and 5 inches of sag on an SSD shock is no different than 5 inches of sag on a non ssd shock

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 04TRX400EX
While I do not agree with what Bradley300 said about SSD/ZPS being useless (cause I think it's a great feature).

i'm not arguing, i'm just trying to be informative. what will SSD shocks do for you that non ssd shocks (like stock rebuilds) wont do? i have not found anything. both will have the same sag when set up correctly, so there is no point in SSD springs

[tank69]

Shock debates are nearly as bad and Ford vs. Chevy, some like them, some don't. If you buy a set and you are happy with them, who cares what everyone's opinion is? I have Elkas on my 05 450R and I love them. I had PEP and Ohlins back in the day I raced my 250R and guess what, people debated Ohlins, PEP and WORKS. If your not racing, get the rebuilds and that's just my opinion. Who knows, maybe you'll tear it up on rebuilds and you can come back and say they work fine for you. IMO, if you have the money ELKAS are fine, so are PEP, WORKS, AXIS and "insert this months shock builer here" name.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by bradley300
all shocks sag if the valving and springs are correct, there is no need for an SSD spring, the shock does that on its own.

i asked the question to laz @ gt thunder on another site and i'll copy/past the conversation

it seems from what i have gathered, having the correct amount of rider sag is key to any good suspension set up. naturaly, any spring will compress or sag once loaded with a rider and sag is adjusted thru the preload collars regardless of if the shock is a SSD type or not. this makes me wonder if SSD springs are really needed or not, since all shocks sag.

so if you can get the correct amount of sag without using an SSD spring, then what is the point of SSD? is it a marketing gimmick, is it just easier to get the correct amount of sag with an SSD spring? is there an advantage with one of the set ups if you can acheive the same amount of sag with each? or does it make a difference as long as the rest of the shock is set up properly for either spring set up?

or am i completly wrong and out in left field and just dont know it yet?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 2 main uses for the SSD/ZPS spring setup.

1. Advertising gimmick.

2. Lowering a quad to the desired ride height when the shock was built with too long an extended length.
__________________
LS


While I wont argue with what LS says about shocks, I can disagree with what you said, somewhat...

My buddy has a pair of works black widows set up for his weight and they physically will not sag enough to get a good ride height for MX, and they sag no where near what mine does with a ZPS setup. In my experience not all shocks will sag as you say, all of the works shocks I've seen so far do not really have a lot of sag built into them. They are still very plush, and set up for the correct weight, they just dont sag.

NacsMXer, I've seen ZPS shocks that do NOT sag under static weight of the quad, they were built for a heavy rider. His SSD spring was nearly the same wire diamater as my main spring on my rear. No joke. Once the rider hopped on, it sagged correctly though...

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
While I wont argue with what LS says about shocks, I can disagree with what you said, somewhat...

My buddy has a pair of works black widows set up for his weight and they physically will not sag enough to get a good ride height for MX, and they sag no where near what mine does with a ZPS setup. In my experience not all shocks will sag as you say, all of the works shocks I've seen so far do not really have a lot of sag built into them. They are still very plush, and set up for the correct weight, they just dont sag.

NacsMXer, I've seen ZPS shocks that do NOT sag under static weight of the quad, they were built for a heavy rider. His SSD spring was nearly the same wire diamater as my main spring on my rear. No joke. Once the rider hopped on, it sagged correctly though...

Yes, absolutely. I have noticed this as well....all ZPS/SSD are not created alike. My friend and I both had 400's, both with the exact same JD +2+0 front ends. He had SSD Elkas (thick spring), I had ZPS PEPs (very thin spring). The Elkas still have some sag to them but not to the degree that the PEPs did. The PEPs seemed to be more passive(loose) when you picked up the front end, whereas the Elkas were a little bit slower to respond to that action.

[jacobw]

ok lets compare if you put elkas that have the ssd on stock arms they are the same length extended as the stockers do so how is this shock built with too long of an extended length???? they are the same lenght as stocker I believe honda yamah etc knows how long to make the shocks that is why aftermarket companies use the same overall lenght for stock setups, I think laz toots his own horn when there are many competent shock companies, all I hear is laz this laz that derisi and c@d racing use ssd springs and they work just fine i have seen sags springs that are heavier than others but they are setup for the rider weight also, the springs do the same thing they sag wether it be a 100 pound spring or 50 pound spring.

[rebelbanshee]

i read that the zps spring allows for proper sag to be had without putting pre-load on the main spring. Whatever that means...

I agree ZPS/SSD its mostly (maybe entirely) a gimmick. My brother has a 250R with TCSs version of ZPS and a "standard" rear shock. Once you sit on it you dont even know, becaise the back sags to the propper ride height and all is well.

My 250R has standard sagging PEP shocks, my Banshee had SSD elkas, once I was on the bike they both had the correct ride hight.

Zero pre-load does look way cooler sitting in the pits though. "dude your quad sits so low!" But i spend most of my time actually riding...

Sag is sag, doesnt matter that you call it.

[quad97]

Here are my thoughts on SSD, ZPS, whatever you want to call it; sag is desired for two reasons: 1) to achieve a lowere ride height for good cornering 2) to allow a suspension to "fall" into holes and whoops instead of the whole bike moving up and down with the terrain. When your wheels fall into a hole or whoop they have to be pushed up again when they meet the uprising dirt of the next whoop or the other side of a hole. A SSD spring has a very light rate, and I think we can all agree on that, and is more easily pushed back up into place than a standard spring with a heavier rate. This allows the bike to stay more level over the rough instead of the heavier springs needing more force to be pushed back up to that point of sag that is desired and in the process giving a harsh ride or throwing the bike around.

Sag can be obtained from both types of suspension, but they do react differently in rough terrain.

As for Elkas, I have them on my race quad and like them just fine. You have to be honest with yourself when you buy shocks about how many adjustments you really need. A pro level racer can use more ajustments because they have more experience and know how each one will affect their ride. If you do not have much suspensioin tuning knowledge then order simpler shocks, or you will have more adjustments than you know what to do with.

[rebelbanshee]

Originally posted by quad97
When your wheels fall into a hole or whoop they have to be pushed up again when they meet the uprising dirt of the next whoop or the other side of a hole. A SSD spring has a very light rate, and I think we can all agree on that, and is more easily pushed back up into place than a standard spring with a heavier rate. This allows the bike to stay more level over the rough instead of the heavier springs needing more force to be pushed back up to that point of sag that is desired and in the process giving a harsh ride or throwing the bike around.



The caveat to that is the wheel may not drop into a rut as quickly with its lower spring rate.

[quad97]

Thats where your rebound adjustment comes into play if you have one

[bradley300]

i can get going with my points if some would like to hear them, but i dont want to turn into into arguing

[300exOH]

Originally posted by bradley300
i can get going with my points if some would like to hear them, but i dont want to turn into into arguing

Go for it...

I have elkas with SSD and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the SSD vs. standard springs... the only possible purpose I have found for SSD is that it makes for a plush ride at slower speeds...

I don't fully understand what you mean by
the shock being built with too much extended length???...wouldn't that limit upward travel if the shock was too long when fully extended???

[Pappy]

I see exactly where laz and bradley are coming from....it is subjective though and to each his own.

Elka among a few others are basing their basic shock set up on spring rate, where as PEP, AXIS and I assume Motowoz are setting the shock up based on valving. There is a distinct difference running an out of the box Elka compared to PEP and Axis....again, it's my opinion that this relates to the set up. Elka appears to be into mass marketing and quick deliver which again, is fine for them if that is the way they want to operate.

I still buy Elka's, but they go straight to Derisi or Colby for new valving. IMO it should be done when ordered by Elka, however that is their business layout. I actually prefer the fit and finish on an Elka over others and it is the main reason I start with their shock. I do realize that others buy a shock and expect that to be that and if that is the case, you may find the Elka to be not of your liking if your coming off another brand of aftermarket shocks. Elka will work with you on springs if you call after setting the suspension up and need a change, but thats a hassle if you ask me.....good service but a PITA.

[bradley300]

here goes...

you guys are confusing some things. laz list two reasons for SSD, a marketing gimmick OR too long extended length, he's not saying every SSD shock is too long, but if if one is, SSD is a way to fix it

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Pappy
I see exactly where laz and bradley are coming from....it is subjective though and to each his own.

Elka among a few others are basing their basic shock set up on spring rate, where as PEP, AXIS and I assume Motowoz are setting the shock up based on valving. There is a distinct difference running an out of the box Elka compared to PEP and Axis....again, it's my opinion that this relates to the set up. Elka appears to be into mass marketing and quick deliver which again, is fine for them if that is the way they want to operate.

I still buy Elka's, but they go straight to Derisi or Colby for new valving. IMO it should be done when ordered by Elka, however that is their business layout. I actually prefer the fit and finish on an Elka over others and it is the main reason I start with their shock. I do realize that others buy a shock and expect that to be that and if that is the case, you may find the Elka to be not of your liking if your coming off another brand of aftermarket shocks. Elka will work with you on springs if you call after setting the suspension up and need a change, but thats a hassle if you ask me.....good service but a PITA.


Well said.:cool:

[300exOH]

Originally posted by Pappy
Elka among a few others are basing their basic shock set up on spring rate, where as PEP, AXIS and I assume Motowoz are setting the shock up based on valving. There is a distinct difference running an out of the box Elka compared to PEP and Axis....again, it's my opinion that this relates to the set up. Elka appears to be into mass marketing and quick deliver which again, is fine for them if that is the way they want to operate.

So would that be true even with custom ordered elkas? When I built my 300ex I used 300ex +2+1 burgards and a shock mount bracket and I had to custom order the shocks by taking several measurements...would they still be the same as the "off the shelf" elkas?

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 400exrider707

My buddy has a pair of works black widows set up for his weight and they physically will not sag enough to get a good ride height for MX, and they sag no where near what mine does with a ZPS setup. In my experience not all shocks will sag as you say, all of the works shocks I've seen so far do not really have a lot of sag built into them. They are still very plush, and set up for the correct weight, they just dont sag.


you have to remeber you are comparing works to elka/axis/pep. works uses about a 30 lb. valving tolerance where as the other top brands are around 15 lbs. ,meaning with works a 140 lbs rider is going to get a shock from works set up for a weight range of 120-150 lbs rider, that same persons will get shocks from elka/axis set up for a 135-150 lb rider.

the closer the tolerance is, the better tha shock will be, it can be more plush and still have the same bottoming resistance. my geuss? since your freinds shocks wont sag correctly (and you want half of the rear travel to be rider sag) he is probably on the light side of the valving formula works uses for his wieght, and a lighter spring would fix the issue

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by bradley300
you have to remeber you are comparing works to elka/axis/pep. works uses about a 30 lb. valving tolerance where as the other top brands are around 15 lbs. ,meaning with works a 140 lbs rider is going to get a shock from works set up for a weight range of 120-150 lbs rider, that same persons will get shocks from elka/axis set up for a 135-150 lb rider.

the closer the tolerance is, the better tha shock will be, it can be more plush and still have the same bottoming resistance. my geuss? since your freinds shocks wont sag correctly (and you want half of the rear travel to be rider sag) he is probably on the light side of the valving formula works uses for his wieght, and a lighter spring would fix the issue

I weigh a good 40lbs or more than him and still cant get the shock to sag that far....

[bradley300]

someone asked if SSD dosnet do anything, why does every shock maker use it.
the asnwer, is because they have to

PEP found a way to not hurt the shocks, and add a gadget (ZPS/SSD) that would sell. it didnt do anything other shocks will do, but it was something they could advertise that others couldnt. they sold like hot cakes beacuse of this new gadget, so regardless if other companies even thought it was a good idea, to keep up sales and take back market share, they had to do the same.

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
I weigh a good 40lbs or more than him and still cant get the shock to sag that far....

in that cse, have you thought maybe the shocks just arent set up right at all? or maybe works uses a diferent sag spec, maybe he should call them and ask how much of the avialable travel should be rider sag, he may be chasing a number that they dont valve for in the first place.

another thing to remeber is works shocks are check ball valving, and everything else is shim stack. i'm not real familar with it and dont know if it makes much of a difference or not

[bradley300]

Originally posted by rebelbanshee



Zero pre-load does look way cooler sitting in the pits though. "dude your quad sits so low!" But i spend most of my time actually riding...

Sag is sag, doesnt matter that you call it.


thats my entire argument. i'm not saying SSD is bad, its just not good either. it does nothing normal shocks wont do, but everyone seems to be impressed by them because of clever marketing

ive read too many post about shocks were someone says "make sure you get SSD, its awesome" when in fact it doesnt do anything any other properly set up shock will do

[Pappy]

Originally posted by 300exOH
So would that be true even with custom ordered elkas? When I built my 300ex I used 300ex +2+1 burgards and a shock mount bracket and I had to custom order the shocks by taking several measurements...would they still be the same as the "off the shelf" elkas?

I would say it applies seeing its a common set up and they would have atleast a set or more ready...but you ordered yours sometime ago so its hard to say.

Elka and I believe Works(possibly Axis but they and Works use a different internals then Elka) have the shocks classified in several different weight classifications. When joe somebody orders a set of shocks for say a 400ex with such and such arms, they grab the set that falls within th weight range of thier valving, match the spring rates to the set up and whoosh...they are out the door. That is the way it has been explained to me over and over. ....and for the average joe it works out well. It doesnt work out well for joe racer, who is replacing his PEP's that have been rebuilt and tailored to his style and liking who now gets a set of shocks that may be too harsh or soft. A call to elka gets him a set of springs that may or may not get them to acceptable levels.

And I have also been informed by several shock builders that Elka's valving is different then what the majority of the industry uses....over my head and I dont pretend to know the differences. I will state that after Derisi has revalved every set of Elkas we run, they have been night and day different and that is why we just send them to him now without even installing them.

The problem with shocks is that there are so many levels of skill with regards to riders and expierence levels vary so much with regards to knowledge of how different shocks feel that opinions get skewed. A guy who has been riding on worn out stock shocks on his 1999 400ex may think (Insert brand name here) are the best thing since sliced bread, where as stated earlier, a racer who knows what he likes might think Elka's just plain suck. Then there is the whole "Do you really know how to set up the shocks " thing and flat out brand loyalty which is a good thing! If you can get past the macho racer dude attitude and get down to brass tacks on a subject like this, alot can be learned, unfortunatley it usually ends up in a fight over what brand is best and screw anyone who feels differently...lol

[ohsobad_chevy]

I want to say thanks for everyones interest in this topic and thanks for keeping it professional. The more we discuss this, the more we all learn, so keep it all coming. :)

[bradley300]

no problem, i enjoy a good topic like this were we can actually learn something, or teach something whichever side you are on

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Pappy
I would say it applies seeing its a common set up and they would have atleast a set or more ready...but you ordered yours sometime ago so its hard to say.

Elka and I believe Works(possibly Axis but they and Works use a different internals then Elka) have the shocks classified in several different weight classifications. When joe somebody orders a set of shocks for say a 400ex with such and such arms, they grab the set that falls within th weight range of thier valving, match the spring rates to the set up and whoosh...they are out the door. That is the way it has been explained to me over and over. ....and for the average joe it works out well. It doesnt work out well for joe racer, who is replacing his PEP's that have been rebuilt and tailored to his style and liking who now gets a set of shocks that may be too harsh or soft. A call to elka gets him a set of springs that may or may not get them to acceptable levels.

And I have also been informed by several shock builders that Elka's valving is different then what the majority of the industry uses....over my head and I dont pretend to know the differences. I will state that after Derisi has revalved every set of Elkas we run, they have been night and day different and that is why we just send them to him now without even installing them.

The problem with shocks is that there are so many levels of skill with regards to riders and expierence levels vary so much with regards to knowledge of how different shocks feel that opinions get skewed. A guy who has been riding on worn out stock shocks on his 1999 400ex may think (Insert brand name here) are the best thing since sliced bread, where as stated earlier, a racer who knows what he likes might think Elka's just plain suck. Then there is the whole "Do you really know how to set up the shocks " thing and flat out brand loyalty which is a good thing! If you can get past the macho racer dude attitude and get down to brass tacks on a subject like this, alot can be learned, unfortunatley it usually ends up in a fight over what brand is best and screw anyone who feels differently...lol

I don't know about you, but if I was spending that much on a set of shocks, I would rather they came from the company I purchased them from, ready to run. Sending them off to someone else to rework brand new stuff seems ridiculous to me. Its like going down to the dealership and buying a new truck, then bringing it to a shop down the road to do an engine swap cause the one you bought isn't up to par... just seems crazy.


Also I've heard that elka uses the exact same valving on ALL shocks, no weight specs at all, same valving across the board (minus pro-am/pro shocks) and use springs to set up for the weight, could be wrong it was only hear-say.

[bradley300]

ive heard that also about thier valving

what pappy does with his brand new shocks is common and goes back to weight tolerances. the big 3 (elka, axis, pep) use 15 lb. ranges, and derisi/gt thunder use a 5 lb range or so. the closer the valving is to your exact weight the better tha shocks will be

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 300exOH
So would that be true even with custom ordered elkas? When I built my 300ex I used 300ex +2+1 burgards and a shock mount bracket and I had to custom order the shocks by taking several measurements...would they still be the same as the "off the shelf" elkas?

sure would as long as they had that size on the shelf. if not, they will use the enst bigger size they have, just like they do with a blaster rear shock. its an odd size, its the only quad that uses it, so they use the next bigger common size, add a spacer on the preload ring so the springs stay in contact with the preload ring and call it good. it works decent, but the ride height isnt where it should be and it could be better

[Pappy]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Sending them off to someone else to rework brand new stuff seems ridiculous to me. Its like going down to the dealership and buying a new truck, then bringing it to a shop down the road to do an engine swap cause the one you bought isn't up to par... just seems crazy.


many, and I mean MANY people do almost exactly this. They buy a car , or truck and immediatley start adding performance items etc yet the car/truck came with the fancy OEM rims and things that will immediatley be discarded. The same applies to power with exhausts, intakes, superchargers etc...but I do know what your point is.

We get quite a few showroom new quads dropped here to be 100% disassembled and rebuilt from the ground up....shocks are really no different but I agree, it shouldnt have to be that way. Ive done the same with axis, pepe, stadium etc as none of them were perfect but some ALOT closer then others...lol

[300exOH]

Originally posted by Pappy
I would say it applies seeing its a common set up and they would have atleast a set or more ready...but you ordered yours sometime ago so its hard to say.

Elka and I believe Works(possibly Axis but they and Works use a different internals then Elka) have the shocks classified in several different weight classifications. When joe somebody orders a set of shocks for say a 400ex with such and such arms, they grab the set that falls within th weight range of thier valving, match the spring rates to the set up and whoosh...they are out the door. That is the way it has been explained to me over and over. ....and for the average joe it works out well. It doesnt work out well for joe racer, who is replacing his PEP's that have been rebuilt and tailored to his style and liking who now gets a set of shocks that may be too harsh or soft. A call to elka gets him a set of springs that may or may not get them to acceptable levels.

And I have also been informed by several shock builders that Elka's valving is different then what the majority of the industry uses....over my head and I dont pretend to know the differences. I will state that after Derisi has revalved every set of Elkas we run, they have been night and day different and that is why we just send them to him now without even installing them.

The problem with shocks is that there are so many levels of skill with regards to riders and expierence levels vary so much with regards to knowledge of how different shocks feel that opinions get skewed. A guy who has been riding on worn out stock shocks on his 1999 400ex may think (Insert brand name here) are the best thing since sliced bread, where as stated earlier, a racer who knows what he likes might think Elka's just plain suck. Then there is the whole "Do you really know how to set up the shocks " thing and flat out brand loyalty which is a good thing! If you can get past the macho racer dude attitude and get down to brass tacks on a subject like this, alot can be learned, unfortunatley it usually ends up in a fight over what brand is best and screw anyone who feels differently...lol

When I ordered mine the 300ex "long travel" setup was a fairly new idea but that doesn't mean they were properly built then. I have always thought they were a little harsh but I just figured that is how elkas are. I don't have much to compare it to since I have only ridden a couple of quads with aftermarket shocks...most of them being works. I have to wonder how much I would benefit from sending them out to someone like GT thunder,C&D, Derisi etc. for a rebuild since I'm basically just a weekend warrior/trail rider? Would I really be able to tell a difference? The elkas I have seem to perform very well but with nothing to compare it to I'm not really sure whether I got what I paid for. The works shocks I had were actually a bit more plush but they would bottom more easily than the elkas. I guess if they feel good to me I shouldn't complain but I have to wonder if they could be better...

Basically what I got out of your post is that it doesn't really matter what brand of shock you buy because you will end up sending them to a shock builder to be properly set up anyways.:ermm:

[300exOH]

Originally posted by bradley300
sure would as long as they had that size on the shelf. if not, they will use the enst bigger size they have, just like they do with a blaster rear shock. its an odd size, its the only quad that uses it, so they use the next bigger common size, add a spacer on the preload ring so the springs stay in contact with the preload ring and call it good. it works decent, but the ride height isnt where it should be and it could be better

So basically I got a set of off the shelf 400ex shocks that are re-sprung for my front end? When I ordered them I had to fill out a build sheet...wouldn't they have to change the valving AND spring rates from what it would be on the 400 in order for them to work properly with the 300ex front end?

[bradley300]

its possible you got 400ex shocks, but i'm not sure if they are as careless with the front shocks as they are the rear

[300exOH]

Originally posted by bradley300
its possible you got 400ex shocks, but i'm not sure if they are as careless with the front shocks as they are the rear

That's kind of what I thought. I have always suspected they weren't quite right but I have no way of telling for certain. Like I said before they feel really good but a little harsh at times especially over choppy terrain. Unfortunately they are the econo series so I can't really make any adjustments. Looks like I might have to send them out for a revalve if I want them to be right.:ermm: Eeesh...more money to spend on the quad. I am very happy with the quality of the shock itself but they could be a bit smoother in the rough stuff.

One question I have is why would I have had to fill out a build sheet if they are just off the shelf shocks anyways?

[Pappy]

300exOH....I would almost bet a paycheck you would notice an incredible difference!

And NOO NOO NOO to the "must send them off". This is not the case at all, but we have found that allowing someone who rides, races and builds the shocks (as in Derisi, Laz, Colby etc) tend to get a much better set up then many of those companies doing mass merchandising. Are those builders always perfect? NO...but they easily stand behind their work.

You have had you shocks for a few years now, I would recommend sending them off for a service and chatting with which ever company you so choose about doing a revalve....again...a pay check says you will be blown away!

[300exOH]

Originally posted by Pappy
300exOH....I would almost bet a paycheck you would notice an incredible difference!

And NOO NOO NOO to the "must send them off". This is not the case at all, but we have found that allowing someone who rides, races and builds the shocks (as in Derisi, Laz, Colby etc) tend to get a much better set up then many of those companies doing mass merchandising. Are those builders always perfect? NO...but they easily stand behind their work.

You have had you shocks for a few years now, I would recommend sending them off for a service and chatting with which ever company you so choose about doing a revalve....again...a pay check says you will be blown away!

Thanks for the info...now to figure out a way to tell the wife I need to send them out for a rebuild...lol

Even though I'm not a racer I'm very picky about suspension...my body is getting much too old to be beaten by the quad every time I ride. :o Ever since I bolted them on I have thought they could be a bit better. The way they are now my forearms/elbows get really sore when I ride and I'm thinking a better shock setup would help a lot.

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 300exOH


One question I have is why would I have had to fill out a build sheet if they are just off the shelf shocks anyways?

they need to know which shock to send

[300exOH]

Originally posted by bradley300
they need to know which shock to send

Yes but wouldn't it have been easier to just tell them I needed a 400ex length shock instead of taking all those measurements?

I guess I was assuming... (or mislead might be a better word) that I was ordering custom built shocks for my application and not just a set of 400ex shocks.
That's basically why I went with elkas verses something cheaper like works shocks. At the time I bought them I was told that they would be set up EXACTLY for my application. I have to admit I'm a bit disappointed to find out that they really aren't that far ahead of works since they are basically have a generic "one size fits all" valving.

[Pappy]

at the time you ordered your shocks, the conversion was relatively new and that is why they would have wanted to know the measurements. today, its a common set up and they have the majority of the popular set ups on file so a measurement is not always needed. when i ordered codys, they knew what shock to get me based on a standard set up including the shock bracket...infact they recommended it. different shock brackets for teh conversion can make differences as well.

[300exOH]

Originally posted by Pappy
at the time you ordered your shocks, the conversion was relatively new and that is why they would have wanted to know the measurements. today, its a common set up and they have the majority of the popular set ups on file so a measurement is not always needed. when i ordered codys, they knew what shock to get me based on a standard set up including the shock bracket...infact they recommended it. different shock brackets for teh conversion can make differences as well.

Ahh I hadn't thought about the differences in shock brackets. I'm a little surprised they actually recommended the shock bracket. I would guess it is because it is easier to tune a longer shock.

I have always had a little doubt in my mind as to whether the measurements I took are right though. I did follow the instructions on the build sheet but since I'm not exactly a suspension expert who knows if I got it right. That is half the reason I haven't sent them out to a shock builder. I have to wonder if I would be better off actually taking the whole quad to them to get the shocks rebuilt so that I'm sure everything is done correctly? I have thought about taking the quad to Laz since he is here in Ohio but I'm not sure if this is something he would even be willing to do.

[Pappy]

I have no doubt Laz will handle them, thats what he does:p

[300exOH]

Originally posted by Pappy
I have no doubt Laz will handle them, thats what he does:p

Would it really be necessary to take the whole quad to him since it's sort of a "custom" setup or would I be safe to just send him the shocks?

[korniev]

Originally posted by ohsobad_chevy
Alright, I have heard good and bad about Elka suspension. More good than bad.
I want to hear all the goods and bads from everyone about Elka suspension. :)
Totally agree!!! Elkas in my opinion are actually worse than a nicely rebuilt stockers!!!

[Pappy]

Originally posted by 300exOH
Would it really be necessary to take the whole quad to him since it's sort of a "custom" setup or would I be safe to just send him the shocks?

im sure the shocks would be all he would need

[Pappy]

Originally posted by korniev
Totally agree!!! Elkas in my opinion are actually worse than a nicely rebuilt stockers!!!

You get many rebuilt stockers in Moscow

[korniev]

Obviously not too many, however I do know couple of guys who did it! Some did at GT thunder, others did in WP - (Dutch suspension) some did in Italy!!!

[300exOH]

Originally posted by Pappy
im sure the shocks would be all he would need

That's what I thought.

The elkas are great shocks as far as quality goes but I'm anxious to see how well they perform when properly valved.

[300exOH]

Originally posted by korniev
Totally agree!!! Elkas in my opinion are actually worse than a nicely rebuilt stockers!!!

Could opinions like this be because the stock shocks have been properly valved and the elkas were "off the shelf"?

Wow... I never would have guessed people actually send shocks all the way from Russia to be rebuilt by GTthunder?:eek2: He must be doing something right then.

[korniev]

Originally posted by 300exOH
Could opinions like this be because the stock shocks have been properly valved and the elkas were "off the shelf"?

Wow... I never would have guessed people actually send shocks all the way from Russia to be rebuilt by GTthunder?:eek2: He must be doing something right then.

Not exactly like that! We do send to Italy or other European countries, however with GT thunder we would rather ask someone to get the stockers sent to him from the US and than shipped to Russia!!!Or there is an option to simply purchase it from GT!!!

[300exOH]

Originally posted by korniev
Not exactly like that! We do send to Italy or other European countries, however with GT thunder we would rather ask someone to get the stockers sent to him from the US and than shipped to Russia!!!Or there is an option to simply purchase it from GT!!!

I wondered how that would work. I would think it would be way to expensive to send shocks back and forth to the states just for a rebuild...the shipping would probably cost more than the shocks themselves. It makes sense to buy a set that is already in the states and have them rebuilt then send them to Russia. I actually live in the same state as GTthunder and it's even pricey to send shocks to him from here. I can only imagine what it would cost to ship them half way around the world to you.

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 300exOH
Yes but wouldn't it have been easier to just tell them I needed a 400ex length shock instead of taking all those measurements?


thjere is alot more to a shock than just length. compressed length, extended length (stroke) leverage ratio's etc... it might not be a 400ex shock at all b/c of those things, it could be for a raptor 660, yfz.. whatever shock matches with the numbers you need

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 300exOH
Could opinions like this be because the stock shocks have been properly valved and the elkas were "off the shelf"?


alot of it has to do with the valving ranges i mentioned earlier. Elka valving is good for about 15 lbs either way, gtt or de risi are good about 5 lbs either way. what that translates into is more precise valving which in turn makes it more plush, with the same or better bottoming resistance

[300exOH]

Originally posted by bradley300
thjere is alot more to a shock than just length. compressed length, extended length (stroke) leverage ratio's etc... it might not be a 400ex shock at all b/c of those things, it could be for a raptor 660, yfz.. whatever shock matches with the numbers you need

I see what you are saying. For some reason I was thinking that they would just be revalved/sprung 400ex shocks when they could be...for example... YFZ450 bodies with raptor shafts and eye ends to fit the 300 all valved/sprung for the application. Basically frankenshocks...:scary:

[300exOH]

Originally posted by bradley300
alot of it has to do with the valving ranges i mentioned earlier. Elka valving is good for about 15 lbs either way, gtt or de risi are good about 5 lbs either way. what that translates into is more precise valving which in turn makes it more plush, with the same or better bottoming resistance

That's basically what I was getting at...

The people who are saying their revalved stockers are better than elkas is because the stockers were built to tighter tolerances.

I wonder how the the elkas would stack up against the stock shocks if they were both rebuilt to the same 5 lb. tolerances and by the same shock builder?

[korniev]

Originally posted by 300exOH
I wondered how that would work. I would think it would be way to expensive to send shocks back and forth to the states just for a rebuild...the shipping would probably cost more than the shocks themselves. It makes sense to buy a set that is already in the states and have them rebuilt then send them to Russia. I actually live in the same state as GTthunder and it's even pricey to send shocks to him from here. I can only imagine what it would cost to ship them half way around the world to you.

Well I never did it through GT however one friend of mine told me that his buddy did it. He had some guy in NY who did everything for him. It was not cheap, but shipping the pricey shocks to Russia makes them REALLY expansive....We buy Elka Elites for at least 1450 for the fronts.......

[300exOH]

Originally posted by korniev
Well I never did it through GT however one friend of mine told me that his buddy did it. He had some guy in NY who did everything for him. It was not cheap, but shipping the pricey shocks to Russia makes them REALLY expansive....We buy Elka Elites for at least 1450 for the fronts.......

Is that $1450 US or other currency?

[Flynbryan19]

Originally posted by 300exOH
Is that $1450 US or other currency?

Sounds about right.

[korniev]

Originally posted by 300exOH
Is that $1450 US or other currency?

Yep US currency!!!

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 300exOH
That's basically what I was getting at...

The people who are saying their revalved stockers are better than elkas is because the stockers were built to tighter tolerances.

I wonder how the the elkas would stack up against the stock shocks if they were both rebuilt to the same 5 lb. tolerances and by the same shock builder?

in that situation, it comes down to how the shocks flows oil, and surely a elka shock has better piston than a stocker so i would say the elkas would be better.

GTT does have new pistons he made and is using, and they are supposed to be the bet flowing of any. pretty sure he can put them in stock or atermarket shocks

[300exOH]

Originally posted by bradley300
in that situation, it comes down to how the shocks flows oil, and surely a elka shock has better piston than a stocker so i would say the elkas would be better.

GTT does have new pistons he made and is using, and they are supposed to be the bet flowing of any. pretty sure he can put them in stock or atermarket shocks

With the better GTT piston design I'm guessing the 2 would be very close to equal but at a much lower cost than the elkas then. Interesting info. Is the new piston design part of GTT's standard revalve/rebuild or is that an extra cost item?

[300exOH]

Originally posted by korniev
Yep US currency!!!

That's not bad. I guess I assumed that because you are in Russia that the price would be much higher.

[korniev]

Originally posted by 300exOH
That's not bad. I guess I assumed that because you are in Russia that the price would be much higher.

Well 1450 is the cheapest u can find here! Usually it is more, and far not everyone here is ready to invest 3000 into shocks alone..........

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 300exOH
With the better GTT piston design I'm guessing the 2 would be very close to equal but at a much lower cost than the elkas then. Interesting info. Is the new piston design part of GTT's standard revalve/rebuild or is that an extra cost item?

i'm not sure

[LotusPosition]

It is an extra cost for those not already using his revalves, IIRC.

i'm not very impressed with my elkas.
i believe revalves are just as good.