sand tires

[ida400ex]

i am ordering new sand tires in the next couple of days. i think the 18-9.5-8 are the ones i want or should i get 20's. also are the sand stars the best? i climb, jump, and do it all. any help would be appreciated.

[asjr39]

18in Scat trac Extremes. I have a full dune season and a ton of drag racing and they are as good as new. They are the same as the Haulers just wrapped in kevlar so they last longer. If you run 20in then you may wanna go down a tooth in the front.

[fasoli83]

ITP Sand Stars all the way i own them and they look sick and they just rock

[Legend_XL]

I use 20" Haulers with a 13 tooth front sprocket and the thing rips in the sand. Good traction and after a dozen trips to the sand they are still like brand new.

[kennerz]

Bang for the buck the 6 paddle extremes on a 20x10x8 are the best tire for an LTR

Only thing better would be a sand tires unlimited comp cut brat, or sand skate 1, but will cost twice as much.

asjr39 - you got some bunk info, extremes aren't wrapped in Kelvar - who told you that? ( dude sorry no flames -but that's the most incorrect info I've heard in a long time)

Extremes are the same as haulers with a little thicker base - that's it. - no Kelvar - very creative

Fasoli 83 - sand stars are the poor man's sand skate II, people like them because there cheap.

Sorry if sound harsh, but the kid need some "Good" advice

[asjr39]

Oh the joy of those who know it all.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by kennerz


Fasoli 83 - sand stars are the poor man's sand skate II, people like them because there cheap.



thats interesting... since my group all used to run sand skate IIs, and now we all run sand stars...

having ridden both, or having ridden on lots of different paddles for that matter, unless youre going haulers i would go with the sand stars... combined with the sand star fronts theyre awesome!!!

i personally dont go with the haulers as except for dragging, the sand stars will out perform them... and as of yet i havent needed them for dragging...

[kennerz]

asjr39- just people should have the right info. Somebody listens to you, then goes arround telling people "hey extremes are wrapped in Kelvar" come on.


And 250R your the first person I've ever hear saying that the Sand Stars are a better tire than the Skate II's.


Not going to take this any further - just ask Joe at Fullerton, or Brian over at Daryl Smith - those guys are the experts.

Some people prefer Mac Donalds over Black angus too.

[250r4life]

so what is it about the sandstars that makes them so bad?

you said that people like them because theyre cheap... so why are they not good?

[asjr39]

Originally posted by kennerz
asjr39- just people should have the right info. Somebody listens to you, then goes arround telling people "hey extremes are wrapped in Kelvar" come on.


And 250R your the first person I've ever hear saying that the Sand Stars are a better tire than the Skate II's.


Not going to take this any further - just ask Joe at Fullerton, or Brian over at Daryl Smith - those guys are the experts.

Some people prefer Mac Donalds over Black angus too.

So you really havent brought any info to the table but as too call people out on info that you deem incorrect. Cheap or expensive it shouldnt matter. Please next time when you feel like hitting the reply button, just stop and think "Does it really matter? Do I even care?" Then when you answer no to both those questions you can move on to another thread. And im glad we are not taking this further because YOU said so. And Black Angus and McD's arent even in the same sentence.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by asjr39
So you really havent brought any info to the table but as too call people out on info that you deem incorrect. Cheap or expensive it shouldnt matter. Please next time when you feel like hitting the reply button, just stop and think "Does it really matter? Do I even care?" Then when you answer no to both those questions you can move on to another thread. And im glad we are not taking this further because YOU said so. And Black Angus and McD's arent even in the same sentence.

:D I love it!!!

[kennerz]

AsJR-


I'm not talking about Cheap or expensive. Your throwing out bad info - period. just goes to show you don't know what you have.


250R - sand stars are about 3-4 lbs a wheel heavier than Skate II's, unsprung weight has everything to do with wheel speed, and handling.

In the sand for a duner, wheel speed, floatation, and bite are important - the STU tire rubber compound, cord design, and lower wieght, is what sets them apart from the rest.

Not about cost, just most all of the other manufacturers don't use the same build quality or materials - and they copied the basic pattern.

So a sand star underperforms a skate due to the weight differential, and that little "pilot" paddle does not help handling. and really doesn't allow the main paddle to get as much bite. while getting overall too much bite at the same time.

Just people keep saying sand stars are the best on the net because that's usually all they have experience with. just saying they are not the only game in town and are not the best. though they aren't a bad tire- but shouldn't be the first choice.

And JR39- yes -sand stars and any STU tire shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence - I'm glad you figured it out.

[250r4life]

youre right- they are quite a bit lighter than the sand star... no doubt...

but the sand star has a lot better bite... having used both- i wouldnt go back to the sand skate IIs...

and i dont have a problem breaking lose the sand stars or spinning them or anything else... i bring the front end up when i want, and i keep it planted when i want... i dont have a problem sliding... i really love the way the sand star combo performs...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by kennerz
and that little "pilot" paddle does not help handling. and really doesn't allow the main paddle to get as much bite. while getting overall too much bite at the same time.


wait wait wait... it doesnt allow it to get as much bite, while getting overall too much bite at the same time?

that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense!

I'm not saying that the Sand Skate II is a bad tire by any means... in fact i think it is a good tire... I just prefer the sand star...

[kennerz]

The pilot paddle doesn't allow the full paddle to get full contact.

but it does add extra drag - it's not rocket science- kinda like running a 18 paddle tire on half the width of the tire.

You ever see someone run an uncut paddla brat, they have 18 paddles, and way to much bite, and bog most bikes down.

everything I said makes sense - think about it.

Six and seven paddles work so well because they dont over burden the motor and allow for some spin which increases tire speed, which is what keeps you moving. Slow tire speed with too much traction will only give you a bog, unless you have mucho HP.

This is not internut science.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by kennerz
The pilot paddle doesn't allow the full paddle to get full contact.

but it does add extra drag - it's not rocket science- kinda like running a 18 paddle tire on half the width of the tire.

You ever see someone run an uncut paddla brat, they have 18 paddles, and way to much bite, and bog most bikes down.

everything I said makes sense - think about it.

Six and seven paddles work so well because they dont over burden the motor and allow for some spin which increases tire speed, which is what keeps you moving. Slow tire speed with too much traction will only give you a bog, unless you have mucho HP.

This is not internut science.

dude... you aint saying anything i dont already know...

i just dont agree with you... in theory it makes sense, but that doesnt always equate to real life...

you dont by chance ride the imperial dunes do you? if so, i would love to meat up and you can show me how well my sand stars dont work...

[kennerz]

250r - At the same time all show you how well my skates do work. And your right what I said makes sense because it's true, wether you agree or not. Now take your sand stars to Daryl smith, have him grove out the "pilot paddle" and then you will have a nice imitation sand skate II, that will work almost the same.

Show me what ever you want in the dunes.

[250r4life]

so do you go to the imperial dunes or what?

there was just a small hint or sarcasm in reference to you showing me anything...

youre not too bright are ya... i told you my group had been riding on skate IIs for years, and now most of us have sand stars... i've ridden each, i know how they perform.... i wouldnt go back...

[kennerz]

250R-Some people prefer budwieser over heineken too... yes I have been going to the dunes for quite some time, back when a 185s was considered a cool bike, and a 250r was untouchable(before water cooling). and if you ever saw a vw with a turbo, it was considered rare, let alone a pinto powered rail.

before suzuki ever had a fourwheeler...

Was going to Duncan when it was Danny's machine works, way before DR. So I've been doing this for awhile, and wether you think so or not I know my Stuff inside and out when it comes to bikes. What really works and what doesn't - and what sets the standard for performance.

And just cause you wouldn't go back or even your group wouldn't go back doesn't make them the superior tire, maybe everyone wants to spend $200 instead of $300 that's understandable. I had a set of skates last 17 years, for that money - I'll buy them again every time. I've ridden sand stars and they were not in the same league IMHO. I would put them on a kids bike or a wifes machine, but not my main ride, no way.

[250r4life]

Fair enough... I can live with that...

[ida400ex]

thanks for all the info guys but i went ahead and ordered sand stars on c-ceries polished. i never got a chance to read all of the "interesting" :D replies before i ordered but thanks anyway.

[Kracker]

Kennerz- It's a losing battle with these two.:p 250r is devils advocate and asjr39 will not hear anything he does not want to here. He is running 18's for cryin out loud. Hey guys, remember me?:)

[asjr39]

Ha Ha yeah. whats up buddy ol'pal. I was gonna mention we had this conversation a few months back but I love the drama.

[Bkillerp]

Many people will disagree with me, but I’m only speaking from experience. I hate the Sandstars. Well.....I'll rephrase that. I hate the Sandstar rears a lot, but I like the fronts a lot too. It's not that they don't work good, they work great, but for me they work too good. The rear has no give. They turn on a dime which means I have to slow way-way down before a turn or I roll over. Whenever I make a turn I have to brace my self because I either feel like I'm going to fly off or roll again. I can't even mess around and do donuts around the camp because I'll either pop up on two wheels or just roll over. Even my friends that ride it say the same thing. A couple of my friends have even rolled my quad because of it. ITP made a tire that works too good in my opinion. I like the haulers and gliders a lot because I feel like I have a lot more control, eventhough technicly I have less. By the end of this season my Sandstars will just be with me for spares incase I blow one of my haulers or something.

[kennerz]

Kracker, Bkillerp - ah the voices of reason....


I asume you are the Kracker from all the other boards - At least I know, that you know, what you are talking about.

Here is some Sand reality:

Economy set up

Rear:
For a low buck LTR = 6 paddle extremes+ money well spent - whatever size floats your boat.

Fronts:
Stand stars,22x8x10, or GBC Dune trackers - same size

For the "REAL" Deal

Rear:
Comp cut STU padla Brats - 6 paddle
Save a little and get the "play" cut (bout $60 bucks less a tire)

Front:
STU razorback 22x8x10 on a 7" wide rim

Feeling "frisky" and like to "Dune"
Rear get a STU Sand Skate I - play or comp cut
-or- like to dune and race - get a STU 22x14x10 Mini Desert trak "Tebo" cut

Want to hook hard out of the hole - then run out of Mph on the hill? run a 8 paddle Skat trak "Hauler"

Rule of thumb from the "real" world - never run more than 9 paddles on anything, unless you have well over 60HP , and at least a 4+ swingarm. even then you could still be over paddled.

This is the "Truth" anything else you hear is from misinformed people, just cause people/everyone "do/does" something doesn't make them right.

I just regurgitated everything I've learned from the Industry experts. (Joe, and "Weasel" at fullerton sand tires, Daryl Smith who has over 40yrs of sand tire experience, and Dr. Q who is a mechanical engineer/veteran racer/engine guru who was there when the first quadracer rolled onto our shores, and today builds some of the fastest single cylinder bikes)

SO sorry I won't listen to anyone else's "opinion" on what's best or not. Between all the experts mentioned they have tried every possible tire combination, and notable tire available on the market. The funny thing is they all agree on the tires I mentioned above. (This is General info, some specific applications(bikes) require different tires) Like a GSR1100 powered bike can run a 12 paddle extreme, or a LT80 would run an 18" 6 paddle "glider" but the above info applies to most all 450's, 250R,350,500 two strokes, even big bore four strokes.

P.S, Gear accordingly.



This is just a FYI for those who want to save some time, and cut through the internet "Fog"

[Bkillerp]

Thanks for the info!

[250r4life]

whats the cost for Comp cut STU padla Brats - 6 paddle on wheels?

[kennerz]

They're really expensive, arround $420 for a pair. That's why I recommended the "play" cut. About $100 or so less. plus the durability/longevity when used properly (no rocks) they will last for years.

If your local to SD call Daryl smith Sand Tires, if your in LA call Fullerton Sand Tires.

Seriously the quality of STU is unparalelled. It's all in the rubber compound/casing design. that sets them apart.


plus a Cut Brat will weigh about 4~6lbs less per wheel than acomparable Sand star, which makes a huge difference in unsprung weight = HP

losing 12 lbs of unprung weight is like adding 2HP, or more since it is rotational mass.

Good luck

[250r4life]

i wasnt asking cuz i wanted to get them...

i was just curious to know what people are dropping on them...

i dont have problems winning races with my heavy sand stars...

i dont deny that i could be faster with other tires, but im plently fast with my sand stars... and i love how they perform everywhere else... i love how they corner on a time (although i dont have a problem with flipping it like one guy on here said- which i thought odd since the LTR is several inches wider than the YFZ)...

and when you throw in the fact that the sandstars i'm using now, I bought off craigslist for $200 for all 4 corners on C series rims, you really cant beat them...

[Kracker]

Originally posted by kennerz
Kracker, Bkillerp - ah the voices of reason....


I asume you are the Kracker from all the other boards - At least I know, that you know, what you are talking about.

Here is some Sand reality:

Economy set up

Rear:
For a low buck LTR = 6 paddle extremes+ money well spent - whatever size floats your boat.

Fronts:
Stand stars,22x8x10, or GBC Dune trackers - same size

For the "REAL" Deal

Rear:
Comp cut STU padla Brats - 6 paddle
Save a little and get the "play" cut (bout $60 bucks less a tire)

Front:
STU razorback 22x8x10 on a 7" wide rim

Feeling "frisky" and like to "Dune"
Rear get a STU Sand Skate I - play or comp cut
-or- like to dune and race - get a STU 22x14x10 Mini Desert trak "Tebo" cut

Want to hook hard out of the hole - then run out of Mph on the hill? run a 8 paddle Skat trak "Hauler"

Rule of thumb from the "real" world - never run more than 9 paddles on anything, unless you have well over 60HP , and at least a 4+ swingarm. even then you could still be over paddled.

This is the "Truth" anything else you hear is from misinformed people, just cause people/everyone "do/does" something doesn't make them right.

I just regurgitated everything I've learned from the Industry experts. (Joe, and "Weasel" at fullerton sand tires, Daryl Smith who has over 40yrs of sand tire experience, and Dr. Q who is a mechanical engineer/veteran racer/engine guru who was there when the first quadracer rolled onto our shores, and today builds some of the fastest single cylinder bikes)

SO sorry I won't listen to anyone else's "opinion" on what's best or not. Between all the experts mentioned they have tried every possible tire combination, and notable tire available on the market. The funny thing is they all agree on the tires I mentioned above. (This is General info, some specific applications(bikes) require different tires) Like a GSR1100 powered bike can run a 12 paddle extreme, or a LT80 would run an 18" 6 paddle "glider" but the above info applies to most all 450's, 250R,350,500 two strokes, even big bore four strokes.

P.S, Gear accordingly.



This is just a FYI for those who want to save some time, and cut through the internet "Fog"

Nice post.....Yep, it's me.

[04CAVForce]

Well I've been looking into sand tires for months now.

Here is some of the information that I dug up from lots of other sites:

Sand Skate 1 & MDT Review (http://sandbros.us/forums/index.php?topic=55.0)

A good review of Brats (http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=26871&st=0)

Brats vs Hauler review (http://www.yfztech.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=661&hl=)


Below is some info on sand tires

Info from http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=11312

Ok found, heres the the most popular sand tire choices

Skat Trak 7 Paddle Hauler (22x11x8)
weight 8lb 14oz (1 tire only)
0-30 mph: 2.65 sec
0-100 ft: 3.25, 33.69 mph
0-300 ft: 6.54, 47.31 mph
0-400 ft: 7.92, 50.52 mph

Sand Tires Unlimited Sand Skate 1 Comp Cut (21x12x10)
weight 9lb 8oz (1 tire only)
0-30 mph: 2.60 sec
0-100 ft: 3.27 sec, 33.86 mph
0-300 ft: 6.55 sec, 47.21 mph
0-400 ft: 7.94 sec, 51.08 mph

Sand Tires Unlimited 9 Paddle Play Cut (21x12x8)
weight 11lb 10oz (1 tire only)
0-30 mph: 2.51 sec
0-100 ft: 3.16 sec, 34.84 mph
0-300 ft: 6.42 sec, 47.50 mph
0-400 ft: 7.81 sec, 50.53 mph

Sand Tires Unlimited 6 Paddle Comp Cut (21x12x8)
weight 7lb 3oz (1 tire only)
0-30 mph: 2.16 sec
0-100 ft: 3.05 sec, 35.01 mph
0-300 ft: 6.33 sec, 47.37 mph
0-400 ft: 7.72 sec, 50.79 mph

They also tested, Sand Devils, Sand Skate 2, Sand Stars, Maxis Roosters, AMS Aerospeed, and STU Tebo Groove (Deset Mini Trak) but their not really hillshooting tires.

Paddle tires & gearing
<fixing link>

and of course the "Great Paddle Thread" - 24 pages so far
(http://www.yfzcentral.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=13062)

From what I've read: where you plan to ride, what type of riding you do, how much you weigh, how much HP your bike makes, are all important questions when figuring out what sand tire would be optimal for your bike and riding style... this could be from the popular 21x12x8 6/7 paddle Extreme Haulers to 21x12x8 9 paddle Gliders ... on and on it goes.

I just ordered me up some STU tires. 21x12x8 6 paddle Padla Brats Comp Cut on Douglas .125 rears and the 22x8x10 Razorbacks on Douglas .125 fronts.

Cheap... no, but damn do I love them.

Sand Stars are an OK tire. Lots of people run them, but if you line up next to another machine that has similar mods and they are running a hauler 6 paddle or Padla Brats 6 paddle.... you will lose in a drag race.

Sand Stars dune just fine, but I'll take my Padla Brats any day of the week and twice on ...... Saturdays :D

Later,
Larry