GM On Strike

[WhiteZrider]

Link

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20957632/

[firefighterjosh]

the factory is 20 mins from my house

[300exOH]

You know it just p***es me off that the fools at GM are on strike. They have been making crappy products now for more than a few years and now they want more money AND more benefits after putting out POS products like the colorado I had. Half of the employees can't even name the part they are bolting on...they just stick it on the car/truck as it rolls by...and then have the nerve to ask for more money? :mad: Maybe they should consider making a quality product first.:rolleyes: I used to be a die hard GM fan but after owning some of their recent products I'm not exactly happy with the general. Sorry but I had to vent on the subject.

[Aceman]

^^^Replying to your post, what do the assembly line workers have to do with the engineers who designed the product?

[300exOH]

Originally posted by Aceman
^^^Replying to your post, what do the assembly line workers have to do with the engineers who designed the product?

The engineers aren't the only ones responsible for the final product. They are just as poorly assembled as they are designed. Either way the assembly workers make more than enough money to bolt a part on that they can't even name.:ermm:

[<DRS>GPF]

i look at it as a "death throw" for GM and another nail in the coffin of the US economy.

unions are going away as a result of these sort of antics and i cant wait..
once gone, it will again come to a time where youre paid your worth.

[Raptor68]

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF
i look at it as a "death throw" for GM and another nail in the coffin of the US economy.

unions are going away as a result of these sort of antics and i cant wait..
once gone, it will again come to a time where youre paid your worth.

Agreed. Look at how profitable Honda and Toyota are...due in large part to there being no unions at their sites. Unions help no one but the union officials themselves.

[54warrior]

***EDITED TO NOT CAUSE A CONTROVERSY****

[LT250_JOE]

Originally posted by Raptor68
Agreed. Look at how profitable Honda and Toyota are...due in large part to there being no unions at their sites. Unions help no one but the union officials themselves.




Originally posted by Raptor68
Agreed. Look at how profitable Honda and Toyota are...due in large part to there being no unions at their sites. Unions help no one but the union officials themselves.

I WORK FOR TOYOTA, AND I CAN SAY THAT ALMOST ALL ASSEMBLY PLANTS IN U.S. ARE UNION.

MY OPINION ON GM STRIKE IS THE SAME AS ALL, A PERSON SHOULD NOT BE PAID 40 DOLLARS AN HOUR TO PUSH A BUTTON ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE. UNIONS ARE KILLING CORPORATE AMERICA. I HAVE A FRIEND WHO IS A UNION ELECTRICIAN AND GETS PAID 48.00 PER HOUR TO SIT ON THE ROOF AT A JOB SITE AND READ MAGAZINES. WHEN HE GETS BORED OF READING, HE GOES TO THE BAR. WHEN AND ONLY WHEN HE REACHES THE POINT OF BEING PAID OVERTIME(TIME AND A HALF..72.OO PER HOUR) DOES HE ACTUALLY START DOING WORK.

I'LL PROBABLY GET DEATH THREATS FROM UNION WORKERS/ MOFFIA FOR THIS POST

[ZWILLETT47]

Think about what you just posted "Agreed. Look at how profitable Honda and Toyota are...due in large part to there being no unions at their sites. Unions help no one but the union officials themselves."

From your statement I would conclude::
'At the Union plant the workers are receiving more of the profits because they have a union." The companies Honda and Toyota are profitable at the expense of their employees.

There are a couple of major issue the UAW has with GM.

1). The Union wants job security for it's members, GM has taken the profits that union employees made for the over the past decade or two and invested in foreign facilities (China, Mexico, etc). This has cost thousands of American good union jobs in the states.

2).Workers and past workers (retirees) have/ have been working for their retirement which includes pension and healthcare benefits. Now GM does want to provide these benefits now, because of the cost or what ever reason they say. The workers over their careers gave up benefits/monies for these pension and healthcare to be there when and if they retire. GM is welching on the deal!

As far as <DRS>GFP statement:
"i look at it as a "death throw" for GM and another nail in the coffin of the US economy. unions are going away as a result of these sort of antics and i cant wait.once gone, it will again come to a time where youre paid your worth."

From your statement: I would like to buy you for what you are really worth and sale you for what you think you are worth.....

Unions are going away and has been for the last 15 to 20 years, because of partly of what I meantion above about investing over seas. But as the union goes so does the mid class and when there are no unions we'll be left with the rich and the poor.

so I wonder how much is someone worth in a corn field in Illinois?

Any intelligent response is welcome:

[chris46250r]

Mr Willett you dont say much, but when you do its some powerful stuff. I couldnt agree with you more. I work with two RETIRED GM employees for the exact reasons you stated.

[54warrior]

Originally posted by ZWILLETT47
so I wonder how much is someone worth in a corn field in Illinois?



more than someone on an assembly line if you ask me. We don't NEED new cars, but we do NEED corn. It's amazing what corn is used for.

[ZWILLETT47]

Why doesn't anyone think before they post?????

The LT250_JOE

You are right most assembly plants in the US are organized and I would venture to say you are paid good wages as well. I will go on and say part of the reason your wage are where they are is because of the unions......

I ask you about your union friend the electrican that gets paid $48.00/hour to sit on the roof at a job site and read magazines does he /she have a boss? Then I would say it is the company that condons this practice not the union.

The Fact is: There is not an union any where that would ask for one of the members to receive wage for not working. Just think about it: Unions want companys to be profitable so there's money to negotigate over for there members.

It this simple: the more profits the company makes the easier it's is for the union to bargain for benefits for it's memebership. So the union and the company are the same as they both want $$$$ for the company.

Both employees and companies and the same They are are gready....A company would pay it's employees 25 cent per hour if they could and put themselves out of business because no one would work for that amount. Likewise if the employees could get $100.00/hr would take it and also put the company out of business.

Unions are not about putting companies out of business, just the opposite unions want profits for companies.....

[infantry317]

The fact is, the current retirement programs are owed more money to support them than GMC's net worth :eek2: Hello, problem people. GMAC (GMC's financial, Di-tech also) is the only thing keeping them in business.

GMC may break the union or at least get the benefits knocked back so as to get their books in order, I guess we'll see. :confused:

[derekhonda]

Originally posted by ZWILLETT47

I ask you about your union friend the electrican that gets paid $48.00/hour to sit on the roof at a job site and read magazines does he /she have a boss? Then I would say it is the company that condons this practice not the union.

But would the union not protect the employee when the company tried to fire? Take the company to court. Find the employee a new job, etc.

I have never been in a union or plan to be, I just know they put my grandfathers trucking company out of business because they seemed to think they were hauling gold and should be rewarded. I honestly think unions are good for the bad workers, and bad for the good workers, anyone care to debate?

[K_Fulk]

Originally posted by Raptor68
Agreed. Look at how profitable Honda and Toyota are...due in large part to there being no unions at their sites. Unions help no one but the union officials themselves.

More importantly they build a good product.

[cbrooks118]

Having just received a BBA in management degree we did alot of research on the auto industry. To keep it short the main reason Honda and Toyota are gaining market share and are the market leaders, is because of in the 70's GM and Ford were putting out alot of cars that were very similar. They did not offer many choices for the consumer. They were not listening to trends showing that a large majority of consumers were interested in smaller compact cars, that were very reliable, and affordablel. They had a good economic impact on the wallet, since most models performed better. I think TOYOTA had the slogan "when the last time you saw a toyota on the side of the road. This statement was very accurate for the times. Also Ford and GM failed to respond to see anyone else as competition.

Thats the real shrot of it

On Unions
Unions have both ppsitive and negative on business.
On the positives they can protect the employees to fair wages and working conditions. They can cahnge the way business is done.
Now on the business side, did you knwo that only 5% of the funds collected by union dues actually are spent back on the employees that pay them. The other 95% are spent in the beauracracy. The union leader is banking, all the while claiming he is for the little guy. They can prohibit changes in business. They drive up prices, because technology and autonomy can make the process faster, cheaper, but wont because unions pay big fees to lobbyist and bribe business officials not to do these things becasue people will be laid off. That is the natural cycle of business.

[Ghost-Rider]

I haven't read everyones response yet so sorry if this has been said.


I live in Michigan, the auto industry is not doing so well as of now.I think the unions and workers need to chill out for a little while so that thew company's can get back on track.They complain about outsourcing of jobs and all that but what do you expect when they can hire a bunch of Chinese people that don't complain about wages for next to nothing...

[BuB400]

Every time something like this comes along the first thing everybody cries "Its because of the high priced UNION labor! Nobody EVER brings up the fact on what upper management/CEO's salary are. The CEO of Home Depot quits 2 years before his contract is up and gets a $210 Millon dollar severance. Why is everyone think the middle class shouldn't make a fair living? I belong to a Union myself, it does have its pros and cons but believe me the days of them protecting the crappy workers is going along the wayside. Think about it they are only slitting there own throat by having a union full of slugs.

[cbrooks118]

I agree that some CEO's pay is outrageous, but i believe that the thread is about unions, not about CEO's. Union leaders are like evangelist, claim that "praises be comin" along with their fat wallets

does that mean there will be no more GM? Thank god:o :D

[MOFO]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
does that mean there will be no more GM? Thank god:o :D


...and you have no idea what kind of hit our economy would take if GM goes away!

[infantry317]

They just mentioned that on GMA on ABC this morning, if GM went under it would not be a huge impact, the entire auto industry only accounts for 1% of our economy according to what the "experts" on ABC said.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by infantry317
They just mentioned that on GMA on ABC this morning, if GM went under it would not be a huge impact, the entire auto industry only accounts for 1% of our economy according to what the "experts" on ABC said.

All in all, I believe the big 3 actually make up close to 10% of our economy with everything factored in.

Keep in mind that for each worker within GM, any where from 8-12 other jobs from outside of the industry are affected - jobs that are tied to the industry but not within GM (suppliers...etc).

Take that and figure it against the 73,000 that are on strike from GM.

Great example of the 1998 strike and how many jobs were REALLY affected.


In the 1998 strike, fewer than 10,000 UAW workers walked off the job, but the stoppage indirectly affected some 150,000 manufacturing workers over the nearly two months that it dragged on.

Now you tell me that would do nothing against our current "fragile" economy!

Take a look at this article and turn off the morning news with the so called "experts"!

http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSN2528722920070925

[Ghost-Rider]

Originally posted by MOFO
All in all, I believe the big 3 actually make up close to 10% of our economy with everything factored in.

Keep in mind that for each worker within GM, any where from 8-12 other jobs from outside of the industry are affected - jobs that are tied to the industry but not within GM (suppliers...etc).

Take that and figure it against the 73,000 that are on strike from GM.

Great example of the 1998 strike and how many jobs were REALLY affected.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the 1998 strike, fewer than 10,000 UAW workers walked off the job, but the stoppage indirectly affected some 150,000 manufacturing workers over the nearly two months that it dragged on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Now you tell me that would do nothing against our current fragile economy!

Take a look at this article and turn off the morning news with the so called "experts"!

http://www.reuters.com/article/reut...528722920070925

MOFO knows whats happening, you guys don't understand that if one of the big 3 goes down it will hurt the other 2.As of right now they big 3 really need to worry about sticking together and getting rid of these foreign car company's so they can thrive again.

[quadracer707]

I have a question for you union guys!!
How many of you hire a union plumber to fix your house? A union carpenter to build you a house? A union mechanic to fix your car?A union electrician to repair your house??? or do you call your friends friend or the local yellow pages?? You get my point if you want to be paid high wages with great benifits, remember to hire somone with the same qualities as you expect.

Union guys are usually the worst tippers at a restaurant, I know we own one.

Iam all for EVERYONE making a great living, just return the favor

My 2 cents

Ken
wades dad

[bradley300]

my grandpa was a big time union man, actually he was a union negotiator in chicago for nearly 40 years. his exact quote to me when i told him my work didnt have a union was " thats good, all they do these days is blow your money, they have long out lived thier purpose and usefullness"

my work voted the union out 10 years ago because of the same thing, they took alot of money and did alot of nothing. and my wife quit her teachers union today because they have done nothing but take her money and cause everyone greif. now we can save that money, which will cover an extra house payment every year

[bradley300]

Originally posted by MOFO
All in all, I believe the big 3 actually make up close to 10% of our economy with everything factored in.

Keep in mind that for each worker within GM, any where from 8-12 other jobs from outside of the industry are affected - jobs that are tied to the industry but not within GM (suppliers...etc).

Take that and figure it against the 73,000 that are on strike from GM.

Great example of the 1998 strike and how many jobs were REALLY affected.



Now you tell me that would do nothing against our current "fragile" economy!

Take a look at this article and turn off the morning news with the so called "experts"!

http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSN2528722920070925

with no more GM, wouldnt the demand for vehicles from other companies (just because a company leaves dosent mean the demand for new vehicles does) grow the other companies to needing more workers thus absorbing most of the impact?

[Ghost-Rider]

Originally posted by bradley300
with no more GM, wouldnt the demand for vehicles from other companies (just because a company leaves dosent mean the demand for new vehicles does) grow the other companies to needing more workers thus absorbing most of the impact?

If GM went out, it would be that much less competition for the foreign company's.Then Ford and Chrysler would have to make up for them.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by bradley300
with no more GM, wouldnt the demand for vehicles from other companies (just because a company leaves dosent mean the demand for new vehicles does) grow the other companies to needing more workers thus absorbing most of the impact?


Not exactly - what you state might be true to a small degree if we knew the demand would stay within our country and keep our jobs within the US - directly affecting our economy.

If GM went under, do you think Ford or D/C would pickup all 73,000+ employee's in their current condition? If a foreign company took some of the lost market, how much of that revenue would stay within our market? What about the other company's that are tied to GM but are not in the auto industry. It would be a nasty ripple that would be felt by many company's and industry's.

Also do not forget that our economy is fairly unstable regardless of what anyone says. It would not take much to really put us in a nose dive right now - IMHO of course! ;)

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Ghost-Rider
If GM went out, it would be that much less competition for the foreign company's.Then Ford and Chrysler would have to make up for them.


We would hope, but even those two are loosing major ground against the foreign automakers.

Now do I think GM will go under or will the union let GM go under? No. The union needs GM.

If these workers continue to strike for a long period of time, will this put a major dent in GM and our economy? Yes!

[ZWILLETT47]

Originally posted by cbrooks118
Having just received a BBA in management degree we did alot of research on the auto industry. To keep it short the main reason Honda and Toyota are gaining market share and are the market leaders, is because of in the 70's GM and Ford were putting out alot of cars that were very similar. They did not offer many choices for the consumer. They were not listening to trends showing that a large majority of consumers were interested in smaller compact cars, that were very reliable, and affordablel. They had a good economic impact on the wallet, since most models performed better. I think TOYOTA had the slogan "when the last time you saw a toyota on the side of the road. This statement was very accurate for the times. Also Ford and GM failed to respond to see anyone else as competition.

Thats the real shrot of it

On Unions
Unions have both ppsitive and negative on business.
On the positives they can protect the employees to fair wages and working conditions. They can cahnge the way business is done.
Now on the business side, did you knwo that only 5% of the funds collected by union dues actually are spent back on the employees that pay them. The other 95% are spent in the beauracracy. The union leader is banking, all the while claiming he is for the little guy. They can prohibit changes in business. They drive up prices, because technology and autonomy can make the process faster, cheaper, but wont because unions pay big fees to lobbyist and bribe business officials not to do these things becasue people will be laid off. That is the natural cycle of business.

CBrooks 118 that great that you have your BBA you're going to need in when you move to China to use it.

Having both BSc and MIR myself and giving up long ago on a PhD, probably before you ever started school I would like to know your source for your statement, " The other 95% are spent in the beauracracy. The union leader is banking, all the while claiming he is for the little guy. "

I have been in Industrial Relations for over 25 years now and have never heard anything so absurd in my life. Forty some years ago before the Federal Government place the International Brotherhood of Teamsters in a trusteeship their corrupt numbers were not even close to your 95%.

Your statement has all the bell and whistles of some anti-union busting law firm that has been hired to bust up a union and fabrication such a untruth.. Where did you come up with that percentage? Department of Labor, certain unions LM2s or some other documented you may have been require to research. Did you read it in your local newspaper? I would guess you maybe just repeating what some glorified community college professor lecture that you happen to attend, but surely you just didn't make this number up on your own?
Good luck !

[quadracer707]

Mr ZWILLET47,

If you are a big union man how about answeing my questions honestly, & if you are in the union please tell me how long and what position you hold. Unions were needed along time ago, & maybe in some industries, autoworkers sorry no way.
Every person should be self emlpoyed one year & this whole world would be different.

Ken

[Rich250RRacer]

Maybe this has been posted already, but this is my view and has been for quite some time. The auto workers in my area think they are gods, they live well beyond there means, they are uneducated losers that file for bankruptcy because of this. They make between $28 and $40 per hour for doing a job that requires no education, skill, or mechanical knowhow. A monkey could do these jobs. They complain because they work too hard, yet anytime there is a news story that requires footage from inside the plant, you see employees wearing white shorts and polo shirts that are spotless. These people are not a skilled trade like plumbers, carpenters, bricklayers, electricians, or any profession that requires an education and physical work. Auto workers are not worth $28 per hour, they're lucky if they're worth half that. If their jobs were taken away and offered at $16 per hour, in my area, the line for them would be ten miles long, and I would be in that line myself. Granted, blame for this falls on both sides, the companies for giving in to the unions, and the unions for extorting this kind of money from the companies. I am just sick of hearing the whining from union members about wages and having to possibly pay for portion of their health care. IF YOU ARE AN AUTO WORKER, YOU DON'T DESERVE A RAISE OR A BREAK ON YOUR HEALTH CARE, GET YOUR ***** BACK TO WORK!

[Ghost-Rider]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
Maybe this has been posted already, but this is my view and has been for quite some time. The auto workers in my area think they are gods, they live well beyond there means, they are uneducated losers that file for bankruptcy because of this. They make between $28 and $40 per hour for doing a job that requires no education, skill, or mechanical knowhow. A monkey could do these jobs. They complain because they work too hard, yet anytime there is a news story that requires footage from inside the plant, you see employees wearing white shorts and polo shirts that are spotless. These people are not a skilled trade like plumbers, carpenters, bricklayers, electricians, or any profession that requires an education and physical work. Auto workers are not worth $28 per hour, they're lucky if they're worth half that. If their jobs were taken away and offered at $16 per hour, in my area, the line for them would be ten miles long, and I would be in that line myself. Granted, blame for this falls on both sides, the companies for giving in to the unions, and the unions for extorting this kind of money from the companies. I am just sick of hearing the whining from union members about wages and having to possibly pay for portion of their health care. IF YOU ARE AN AUTO WORKER, YOU DON'T DESERVE A RAISE OR A BREAK ON YOUR HEALTH CARE, GET YOUR ***** BACK TO WORK!

I disagree, my dad is a boiler / heating cooling engineer for Fords and i can tell you that if you put a monkey in that control room hundreds of people would die in and hour or less.

[ZWILLETT47]

Originally posted by quadracer707
Mr ZWILLET47,

If you are a big union man how about answeing my questions honestly, & if you are in the union please tell me how long and what position you hold. Unions were needed along time ago, & maybe in some industries, autoworkers sorry no way.
Every person should be self emlpoyed one year & this whole world would be different.

Ken

Ken

I am not a large man physically nor do I consider myself "a big man in the union". My position in any union has no bearing on this discussion and will only add fuel to some position (maybe your?). I am a card carrying union member and have been my most of my adult life. When I first got out of school I had a management job with Eaton Axle for a short period of time could not stomach how employees were being treated.. The facility I worked at my father was in supervision and I was on the other side of the fence. I saw how this company treated their employees (both union and non) first hand.

I will agree with you in part some industries/jobs don't need a union. Example: you work for a company (usually moms and pops shops) that treat you fair, pays fair wages, will address your problems, gives you ample to time off work to address your needs (Holiday, vacations, family issues) allows advancements fairly, covers your healthcare needs and when it comes time to retire has some avenue for this to happen. If you have this then you don't need a union.

Self employment is and education in it self and those that choose that as a career my hat is off to them.

You ask a question who does my work…. I always try to get union craftsperson but most don't do residential work. I do tip in when the service warrants a tip ( 99.9% most of the time). By the way in Australia 10 years ago tipping was not appreciated by the server because they receive a fair wage and consider leaving money as insult. Minimum wage back then was $10.00 /hour and not many were on the dole (unemployment).

toyota is going to start running $Hit now days

[Old Dirtbiker]

Iv'e read most of the comments of the strike in this forum.

Only a couple are worth reading thru the end.

It seems that most posters would prefer seeing GM go down.

This is a disgusting thought that if my kids posted, I'd bust thier aarss.

While I don't agree with everything thats involved in building a union backed car, I do believe that the union wages set the bar for everyone else thats non union.

When one of the Big 3 close a plant, familys breakup, lose their homes, the whole town suffers. And this is good?

And lets not forget the taxes and benefits paid by Union People, NO, we don't get to keep all of the money.

Now, I don't claim to know everything about unions since I've only been a member for 30 years.

Those of you that don't support the big 3 are helping under mine whats left of a Great Nation.

For those of you that believe in buying American, my family and I thank you. (I don't build cars, I'm in construction)

I just hope to leave this country in better shape than it is now.
You should too. Get out and Vote.
Thanks

[ZWILLETT47]

Originally posted by Old Dirtbiker
Iv'e read most of the comments of the strike in this forum.

Only a couple are worth reading thru the end.

It seems that most posters would prefer seeing GM go down.

This is a disgusting thought that if my kids posted, I'd bust thier aarss.

While I don't agree with everything thats involved in building a union backed car, I do believe that the union wages set the bar for everyone else thats non union.

When one of the Big 3 close a plant, familys breakup, lose their homes, the whole town suffers. And this is good?

And lets not forget the taxes and benefits paid by Union People, NO, we don't get to keep all of the money.

Now, I don't claim to know everything about unions since I've only been a member for 30 years.

Those of you that don't support the big 3 are helping under mine whats left of a Great Nation.

For those of you that believe in buying American, my family and I thank you. (I don't build cars, I'm in construction)

I just hope to leave this country in better shape than it is now.
You should too. Get out and Vote.
Thanks

Amen Brother

[stalefish_132]

GM is NOT going to go away, think about how much is attached to the GM name, here's a few...

Buick
Cadillac
Chevrolet
GMC
GM Daewoo
Holden
HUMMER
Oldsmobile
Opel
Pontiac
Saab
Saturn
Vauxhall
GM Products & Services...
ACDelco
GMAC
GM Cardmember Services
GM Goodwrench
GM Duramax Diesels
GM Mobility
GM Parts & Accessories
GM Performance Division
GM Performance Parts
GM Powertrain
GM Tuner Source
OnStar
XM Radio

there were more few years ago, like New Venture Gear ( trannies & T case's) also formally known as Muncie.

Allison transmissions was owned by GM until a few months ago

and i'm sure there are others.

and there are many many more companies that supply parts for GM.


GM employs roughly 284,000 people around the world. In 2006, 9.18 million GM cars and trucks were made. in 2004 GM was the best selling brand in China (Buick to be exact).

when people say " ooh GM is loosing XX millions of dollars per day" they really don't know what they're talking about, per day they take in more money than most people can count to, yeah maybe on tuesday they like 1.2 million dollars, well if they made say 8.8 million that day did they actually loose money? no they just didn't make as much as normal.

that statment above is by no means accurate, just an example.

this whole strike thing to meis maybe good and bad but the way i see it is unions brign more trouble than they keep away.

[cbrooks118]

[i]
For those of you that believe in buying American, my family and I thank you. (I don't build cars, I'm in construction)

[/B]

What company was your atv produced by?

Dont be absurd, foreign car manufacturers employ alot of workers in the US as well. I am curious to know how many vs. ford and GM.

The japanese produce quality cars and trucks, and they are lean on manufacturing cost without unions. It can be done efficently

[cbrooks118]

http://www.ocpathink.org/ViewPerspectiveEdition.asp?ID=52

here is an article that claims oklahoma teachers are coerced into joining a union to receive greater insurance discountsfor beign a large group. average dues are 375. insurance cost per person 4.29

[chris46250r]

Wow! This thread has lasted longer than the strike.

[Exrider434]

strikes over! back to production today

Maybe if GM would produce a quailty car no one would have to worry about the Japanese comapnys taking over. And yes I drive a GM,and its 100% junk.

[bradley300]

Originally posted by Old Dirtbiker


Those of you that don't support the big 3 are helping under mine whats left of a Great Nation.



if the big 3 could compete with the japanese, then it would be worth buying from them. but instead they pump out crap because people like you will buy it anyway because its american. GM and the rest of the big 3 dug thier own grave band here's how

1.giving in to outrageous union demands (40 an hour to press a button? please!)

2. stagnation in the market place causing a holier than thou attitude (those japs will never over take us, we build american![in mexico])

3. fear of change and lack of drive to do better (how many years did it take them to redesign an s-10? 10 years, same with the full size trucks and i'm sure plenty of others. since they sell, they dont strive to do better

4. corporate salary

BTW i own 2 chevys. a 99 silverado. do i like it? yeah, but that doesnt mean there are things i would change and a cobalt SS. its acually a nice little car, pretty quick, fun to drive, handles well and gets good mileage, but its too little too late to get in the 4 banger sporty car market

[BuB400]

What a country. People who make $16 an hour will pay $30 to watch a grown man play a childs game for a millon dollar salary, but the minute someone gets ahead at their job because of a strike, holy crap call the cops. And for all you guys kissing the Japanese markets ***, why don't you move there. And for the few anti-union guys, work a few more than 5 or 6 years in the field before you go spoutin' off. That profile button is a neat thing. When I was your age I thought I knew everything and could conquer the world too. And by the way I hope I run into Mr. Willet someday, I'd like to buy him a beer.

[bradley300]

Originally posted by BuB400
What a country. People who make $16 an hour will pay $30 to watch a grown man play a childs game for a millon dollar salary, but the minute someone gets ahead at their job because of a strike, holy crap call the cops. And for all you guys kissing the Japanese markets ***, why don't you move there. And for the few anti-union guys, work a few more than 5 or 6 years in the field before you go spoutin' off. That profile button is a neat thing. When I was your age I thought I knew everything and could conquer the world too. And by the way I hope I run into Mr. Willet someday, I'd like to buy him a beer.

athletes are extremely over paid also, but that wasnt what this thread is about

[xcyfz450]

japanese may employ many us workers but all the profits go back over seas not doing us anygood ecspecially with the way are economy is sumthin to ponder

Originally posted by xcyfz450
japanese may employ many us workers but all the profits go back over seas not doing us anygood ecspecially with the way are economy is sumthin to ponder

well if the big 3 made a quality car and none of this would be happening

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by BuB400
What a country. People who make $16 an hour will pay $30 to watch a grown man play a childs game for a millon dollar salary, but the minute someone gets ahead at their job because of a strike, holy crap call the cops. And for all you guys kissing the Japanese markets ***, why don't you move there. And for the few anti-union guys, work a few more than 5 or 6 years in the field before you go spoutin' off. That profile button is a neat thing. When I was your age I thought I knew everything and could conquer the world too. And by the way I hope I run into Mr. Willet someday, I'd like to buy him a beer.


unless they were going to share, i wouldnt pay any money to see someone make a million.

i own american vehicles but not because im loyal to big business, i can think and shop for myself.. there's more than a "few anti-union guys" on this board and in this nation.
by the way, if you would read up on your bill of rights, you'd find that everyone is allowed a voice in this nation. so you can keep your "then just move there" attitude in your breakroom and stick to planning strikes..
the thought that a "screw turner" or "hammer swinger" with nothing more than a high school education should make more than a college graduate, just because he's in a union, isnt something that sits well with me or many others.
why should a workforce "newb" be paid the same wages as myself, when ive put in more time and know my job better from experience.
management apparently feels the same way, as those positions are jumping the border as quickly as plants can be made.

when you were my age? 40..? how old are you now..? 60?

apparently youre a union paid worker, so youll never "see the light" until your job is sent away and you've got to compete in a real work marketplace to feed your family. a persons monetary worth will be shown then.
ive paid income taxes since i was 15 and ive only had a 30day break between jobs in my entire life.. my employers appreciate that work ethic and pay me accordingly. i havent asked for a raise in 15yrs, theyre just given to me because i deserve them.

ive worked for the AFLCIO twice, for about 10yrs total..
i honestly thought it was just the area that produced the poor work ethic, but lo and behold, i move to a new area and suprise, i again get to hear "its not my job and you cant make me or ill tell the steward and we'll file a grievance.. blah blah blah"
interpreted as: "Im really lazy and have no real work ethic unless the union tells me that i do.."
as a result, not much union labor in my area any more and those jobs went to Canada..
there isnt a job market for self serving attitudes.

im certainly not for anyone losing their job and consequently their prosperity, but some people need to come down from their cloud and take a hard look at whats going on outside their little world.

this nation is financially going to heck in a handbasket and big business is selling you out.. noones job is secure, so you better have a plan outside of holding a sign and walking in circles..

[ZWILLETT47]

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF
unless they were going to share, i wouldnt pay any money to see someone make a million.

i own american vehicles but not because im loyal to big business, i can think and shop for myself.. there's more than a "few anti-union guys" on this board and in this nation.
by the way, if you would read up on your bill of rights, you'd find that everyone is allowed a voice in this nation. so you can keep your "then just move there" attitude in your breakroom and stick to planning strikes..
the thought that a "screw turner" or "hammer swinger" with nothing more than a high school education should make more than a college graduate, just because he's in a union, isnt something that sits well with me or many others.
why should a workforce "newb" be paid the same wages as myself, when ive put in more time and know my job better from experience.
management apparently feels the same way, as those positions are jumping the border as quickly as plants can be made.

when you were my age? 40..? how old are you now..? 60?

apparently youre a union paid worker, so youll never "see the light" until your job is sent away and you've got to compete in a real work marketplace to feed your family. a persons monetary worth will be shown then.
ive paid income taxes since i was 15 and ive only had a 30day break between jobs in my entire life.. my employers appreciate that work ethic and pay me accordingly. i havent asked for a raise in 15yrs, theyre just given to me because i deserve them.

ive worked for the AFLCIO twice, for about 10yrs total..
i honestly thought it was just the area that produced the poor work ethic, but lo and behold, i move to a new area and suprise, i again get to hear "its not my job and you cant make me or ill tell the steward and we'll file a grievance.. blah blah blah"
interpreted as: "Im really lazy and have no real work ethic unless the union tells me that i do.."
as a result, not much union labor in my area any more and those jobs went to Canada..
there isnt a job market for self serving attitudes.

im certainly not for anyone losing their job and consequently their prosperity, but some people need to come down from their cloud and take a hard look at whats going on outside their little world.

this nation is financially going to heck in a handbasket and big business is selling you out.. noones job is secure, so you better have a plan outside of holding a sign and walking in circles..




<DRS>GPF it’s apparent that you were responding to BuB400 posting. But I have a question for you and a commit or two for you and to add to this topic:

1). The ten years you were employed by the AFL-CIO where did you work? Was it in Washington DC? or were you working for a State AFL-CIO division. The reason I wonder, is I know a lot of people who worked at the national level as well at my State level (Kentucky) and several surrounding states AFL-CIOs. Perhaps we met?

Couple of commits for this topic as well:

1). Your state about our “Bill of Rights” referring to our First Amendment: “, if you would read up on your bill of rights, you'd find that everyone is allowed a voice in this nation. so you can keep your "then just move there" attitude in your breakroom and stick to planning strikes..” This is sort of assured. From your own statement you are telling him where he can speak, “in his breakroom”. In your own statement you are infringing upon his First Amendment Right. When James Madison was drafting the First Amendment he and others realized freedom to speak would not come without a price. The price would be the repercussions of what someone says. Even today you can say anything you want, but people may shun you, you may lose your job, you may be taken to court, among many other ramifications for you statements. There are clearly repercussions at times. This is why you find me critiquing you for your statement.

2). Your statement: “this nation is financially going to heck in a handbasket and big business is selling you out.. noones job is secure, so you better have a plan outside of holding a sign and walking in circles.” Is a fair statement in my opinion I will only add. The numbers of unions and organized companies in the United States have been on a steady decline since the late 80s. Today there is less than 9% of the total workforce in America that belong to a union. The reason the “nation is financially going to heck in a hand basket” can not be attribute unions but to “ Big business is selling you out.” I totally agree!


3). Your statement: “ the thought that a "screw turner" or "hammer swinger" with nothing more than a high school education should make more than a college graduate, just because he's in a union, isnt something that sits well with me or many others.”

Most unions contracts provides for equal pay for equal work…meaning if I have a high school education and you have a PhD and we both are on the same job, doing the same work we both will get paid the same.

I am sure this is not what you meant. You probably have a problem with me working in an union shop and making more than you with you college diploma. So what? Find another job !

The second part of your statement: “why should a workforce "newb" be paid the same wages as myself, when ive put in more time and know my job better from experience.” In most union shops people are rewarded for their experience we call that seniority and gives someone you mention certain rights.

Final note>
“there's more than a "few anti-union guys" on this board and in this nation.” Another true but sad statement! I ask you young guys and gals to remember, “when the unions are done here in the US so is the middle class. You will be either Rich or Poor there will be no other class.”

[bradley300]

unions had a job a long time ago, fighting for a FAIR wage, fighting deplorable conditions etc... even fighting so a company cant get out of paying promised pensions is a noble cause.

striking because of petty benifits such as wanting overtime, a few extra cents an hour that probably arent earned or desreved anyway or even more vacation days. give me a break. be pleased you make 40 an hour to not even have to think and back off. be pleased that your benifits are already better than most and back off. be pleased you already take more vacation days than most peopleand back off. unions have by and large acheived the goals of the original intent, even goals from 30 years ago. but the unions time is up, and outside of union workers, a union is not the hero they used to be

strike until your CEO's have a ratio cap on thier salary vs. yours. This ratio used to be $7 to $1, now its more than $40 to $1 in favor of CEO's. the more money that stays with a company to invest, instead of paying a outrageous salaries, the better of the company is and the more stable the job security will be for everyone.

if you dont like your job, leave and find a better one, if there isnt a better one suck it up or go back to school so you can get a better one.

[BuB400]

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF
unless they were going to share, i wouldnt pay any money to see someone make a million.

i own american vehicles but not because im loyal to big business, i can think and shop for myself.. there's more than a "few anti-union guys" on this board and in this nation.
by the way, if you would read up on your bill of rights, you'd find that everyone is allowed a voice in this nation. so you can keep your "then just move there" attitude in your breakroom and stick to planning strikes..
the thought that a "screw turner" or "hammer swinger" with nothing more than a high school education should make more than a college graduate, just because he's in a union, isnt something that sits well with me or many others.
why should a workforce "newb" be paid the same wages as myself, when ive put in more time and know my job better from experience.
management apparently feels the same way, as those positions are jumping the border as quickly as plants can be made.

when you were my age? 40..? how old are you now..? 60?

apparently youre a union paid worker, so youll never "see the light" until your job is sent away and you've got to compete in a real work marketplace to feed your family. a persons monetary worth will be shown then.
i was 15 and ive only had a 30day id income taxes ive pasince break between jobs in my entire life.. my employers appreciate that work ethic and pay me accordingly. i havent asked for a raise in 15yrs, theyre just given to me because i deserve them.

ive worked for the AFLCIO twice, for about 10yrs total..
i honestly thought it was just the area that produced the poor work ethic, but lo and behold, i move to a new area and suprise, i again get to hear "its not my job and you cant make me or ill tell the steward and we'll file a grievance.. blah blah blah"
interpreted as: "Im really lazy and have no real work ethic unless the union tells me that i do.."
as a result, not much union labor in my area any more and those jobs went to Canada..
there isnt a job market for self serving attitudes.

im certainly not for anyone losing their job and consequently their prosperity, but some people need to come down from their cloud and take a hard look at whats going on outside their little world.

this nation is financially going to heck in a handbasket and big business is selling you out.. noones job is secure, so you better have a plan outside of holding a sign and walking in circles.. I agree some people need to come down off of their cloud, but thats with any employee union or not. As for giving raises my employer does not have to give me the raise that the union sugests, its still on my merit, or skill . Its a bigger problem than unions with jobs leaving this country. Its everybodys work ethic, union or not.

[BuB400]

And DRS being from a cornfield in ILL. I don't have to tell you about work ethic. Nowadays we can't even get kids around here to unload hay for $10 an hour and if we can they want to get paid at the end of every day so they don't show up the next, so don't preach to me about work ethics.

[jcv400ex]

Originally posted by ZWILLETT47
<DRS>

Final note>
“there's more than a "few anti-union guys" on this board and in this nation.” Another true but sad statement! I ask you young guys and gals to remember, “when the unions are done here in the US so is the middle class. You will be either Rich or Poor there will be no other class.”

The Unions killed this NATION by killing their share of good companies. They squeezed all the profits out of companies, forcing them to go over seas for cheaper workforces. My dad's company quit manufacturing magnets in the US a long time ago. It was cheaper for them to have the magnets made in china and have a small workforce here in the states just sort and re-package the parts...

Unions did well for construction but killed manufacturing. It's not opinions, it's facts...the workforce is more educated now, so we don't need the union to speak for us.

The middle class is dying because the jobs are going out of the country, due to companies being squeezed of their profit by our own stupidity and Unions.

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by ZWILLETT47



good responses.

you are correct concerning my comments about "keeping it in his breakroom".. he has every right to tell me "go to japan".

i dont have a 4yr college diploma, although ive taken many classes over the years. i feel i make a fair wage and for the most part, am treated fairly by my current employer.
in fact, i insisted that they delay a 15% raise the year following 9/11 and the telecom market(among others) crashed. i had been hoping for a significant increase for about 3yrs, but patiently waited to first prove my worth in a new position that was made just for me. the company needed a field service person and i stepped up in spades.. after 9/11 our company needed help and i couldnt justly take a raise while my friends an neighbors were being laid off. (thats the god honest truth)
i was later compensated for my loyalty toward the company and coworkers.. ($2500 bonus and the raise was increased to 20%)
again, i make a fair wage and im treated well by my peers. when is the last time youve heard that?

im certainly not jealous of a union worker, i just simply feel that unions have been more than self serving and unfair to the rest of the nation. their idea of a "fair wage" has nothing to do with the rest of the nations employed, its only about their own level of pay and nothing more. truly self serving..

about the "union workforce newb..", i just read in USA TODAY that as part of the concessions, new hires wont get the same pay/benifits as loyal long time employees. so thats that and it took long enough.. now for the remaining unions to get it together and pull their collective heads out before theyre unemployed.

just because UAW "made up" with management, doesnt mean its over.. look at trailmobile, blaw knox, fedders air, etc... all shut down the plants as soon as they had new buildings over the borders. so much for "consessions"..

as for middle class dissappearing, i cant see it.. there are plenty of middle class that arent union labor.. by your own numbers, youre implying that only 9% of the nation would be "middle class"

i will add that ive unfairly grouped all unions together, when im only speaking about a few.. i wont go into my "teachers unions" and "dockworkers unions" rant..:rolleyes:

my armchair, uneducated, unfounded prediction for the future of this nation is..
the economy will continue to fall as long as we are in conflict with the world.. (in case anyone hasnt noticed, the world hates the US and is dying to see us fall)
the middle class investments will be taken out of circulation, as they try to financially hold on till this "unadmitted" recession is over, further killing the economy.(but who can blame them..)
crime will increase exponentially as a result of the desparity of the impovershed.. (theyll have nothing to lose..) the crime rate is already increased by a large percentage as currently being reported.
when it all "bottoms out", north america will be just that, north america.. borders will be taken down and sadly, youd better be capable of speaking more that "american english".

BTW, my AFLCIO experience was when i worked for a sign company in Palmyra, NJ and again at Fedders NA in Effingham, IL. i was pretty low on the totem pole(generally a whipping slave) so the chances of us meeting during those times are probably slim. i got to thinking about my time and it was only about 7yrs, not 10. some of which i wasnt working for those companies, but maintained my membership in hopes of being called back. (another "snipit" of my reasoning for distain towards unions..)

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by BuB400
And DRS being from a cornfield in ILL. I don't have to tell you about work ethic. Nowadays we can't even get kids around here to unload hay for $10 an hour and if we can they want to get paid at the end of every day so they don't show up the next, so don't preach to me about work ethics.


i partially agree with that, but you wont find a farmer willing to pay that around here.. kids are smart and they see that there's no "poor farmers". add that to the knowledge of the amount of subsidies(farmers welfare) taken in this county alone and it becomes easy to see their point of view.

the farmers in this area would rather take advantage of illegals and claim it as an undocumented "expense", then write it off in taxes that year or the next, when it benifits them most. much like the brand new vehicles every other year or so.. you know, like a "farming mercedes 450sl.." or the upkeep of their 20 acre lawns.

no preaching, just facts...http://farm.ewg.org/farm/region.php?fips=17023
they were so embarrased and ashamed, they more than insisted that this information not be openly published in local newspapers and apparently anywhere else. (note the data stops in 2005)

if youre truly offering $10 hr, then i can send you a bus load. they haul bus-loads of kids from here all the time for detassling at minimum wage.
dont think for a second that there isnt a willing young workforce in my area, farmers are just greedy and more than willing to take what they dont deserve in the the form of welfare.(a great display of "ethics" there..):rolleyes: