plated cylinder and why we should not use them

[buck naked-r]

THIS IS WHY I DON'T LIKE PLATED CYLINDER

went to the dyno today to get things check and try some new fuel thats suppose to be mix with alcohol...well the 110 did better...i didn't have any u-4 so i tried some of this NEW STUFF and loss power so when i put the 110 back in the bike wouldn't start........i tried EVERYTHING......then i pulled the carb and looked in the intake and there was nothing but METAL IN THERE......after that i was so mad i just went home and later tore it down too find this..............could the fuel have caused this


AND I JUST NEXT SHIPPED A +6 SWINGER THAT I BOUGHT FROM MORGAN cause i have a big race this weekend............guess i'll use the raptor for him sunday

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0112Image0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0112Image0003.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0112Image0004.jpg


IT'S A GOOD THING I HAVE ANOTHER SLEEVED CYLINDER READY.......JUST NEED ANOTHER PISTON........don't think im going with venom this time

oh and heres the fuel..[its red in color].....and the results.....the green line is this suppose to be bad *** fuel and the others are with 110

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/fuel.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0112Image0002.jpg

[d3ktrix]

Thats the bad luck u get for not refunding all of someones money u owe them for the pipe u never sent :P

[chad502ex]

buck,

is this your big bore 480cc?

[rap169]

I think you should contact venom and get thier opinion on this. I dont feel it has anything to do with venom at all. Im not really sure what caused it though. Maybe an expert can elaborate on this

[GPracer2500]

Buck, is there any metal pitting on the face of the piston around the outside edge or on the top ring land?

[cannondale27]

Yes good question.Never saw detonation take off the Nikasil but it would be possible.

[speedfreaksguy]

Looks like a defect in the plating. I have never seen plating peel off like that. Was that a stock cylinder replated for the big bore?? How many hours on the cylinder.

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by d3ktrix
Thats the bad luck u get for not refunding all of someones money u owe them for the pipe u never sent :P

[Jersey450R]

Originally posted by d3ktrix
Thats the bad luck u get for not refunding all of someones money u owe them for the pipe u never sent :P

Doh! :ermm:

[buck naked-r]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Buck, is there any metal pitting on the face of the piston around the outside edge or on the top ring land?

yes.....and the top of the piston looks like it has small pits in it...like something was beating on the top of it

[buck naked-r]

Originally posted by chad502ex
buck,

is this your big bore 480cc?

yes

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
yes.....and the top of the piston looks like it has small pits in it...like something was beating on the top of it

Metal pitting around the outside edges of the piston face and top ring land is a sign detonation was occurring. Without seeing the damage with my bare eyes (or having really good up-close pictures) I couldn't say for sure that's what caused the marks on the piston. But detonation is something to consider for both that damage and the damage to the bore coating. I can't say I've seen deto compromise a bore's coating. But I could imagine that if deto could compromise just a tiny spot on the coating, it could cascade into the ugliness you wound up with.

[buck naked-r]

I'LL GET SOME CLOSE UPS TODAY

[ESrider]

Which company plated the cylinder?

[chad502ex]

this is not a plating problem as this thread implies....:rolleyes:

[chris46250r]

Originally posted by chad502ex
this is not a plating problem as this thread implies....:rolleyes:

Go ahead and finish that statement. Tell us what kind of problem it is. Dont say the V word either.

[Elduner]

Buck I think this all got started long ago when you first had some issues and you sanded and honed out this cylinder... I would of not done that then... I think its all related...

and I don't think it has anything to do with the V piston in there...

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Elduner
Buck I think this all got started long ago when you first had some issues and you sanded and honed out this cylinder... I would of not done that then... I think its all related...

and I don't think it has anything to do with the V piston in there...

;)

i didn't want to pull the sand cylinder thread...

[buck naked-r]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
I'LL GET SOME CLOSE UPS TODAY

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0115Image0001-1.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0115Image0002.jpg

if a engine [builder] does not know anythink about honing a cylinder then they should not be touching anyones engine

they have only been honing cylinder for around 40years or more


GPacer2500 tell us how you feel about sanding a cylinder...
if you can hurt nikasil with sand paper then there's something wrong with that nikasil

and that was done back in feb or so........and now because i honed the cylinder the plating came off :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[d3ktrix]

All u did was wet sand it and ball hone it right?
Didn't bore it at all?

I've been told many times by engine builders that u ARE supposed to hone/deglaze before installing a new piston.
I'm supposed to be getting mine honed by a friend this week.
Or is there a better way to do it?

[Elduner]

You hone steel sleeve cylinders.... I did it numerous times on my 250r cylinders... not ones that are coated... I wash my coated cylinder only.... then its either a replace or replate....

Could be that the coating was undamaged but it just seems like a lot of things went wrong with this cylinder from the get go James.... Did you ever find out what happened the first time around? or better yet was caused it?

[d3ktrix]

Originally posted by Elduner
You hone steel sleeve cylinders.... I did it numerous times on my 250r cylinders... not ones that are coated... I wash my coated cylinder only.... then its either a replace or replate....

Could be that the coating was undamaged but it just seems like a lot of things went wrong with this cylinder from the get go James.... Did you ever find out what happened the first time around? or better yet was caused it?

You just wash it with soap and water and slap the new rings in?
The cross hatches don't need better cleaning?

[chad502ex]

honing NiCaSil cylinders for 40 years? :rolleyes: keep guessing...

do you even realize how thick the NiCaSil coating is? wait you do now....:devil:

I agree that your sanding technique was not the cause of the EXTREMELY tough coating to fail, but you hand sanding a NiCaSil cylinder LOL!!!!,.... that was funny shi4 right there...

maybe you left the 40 grit sand paper debris still in your cylinder and it sand blasted your piston and jug to death.... just kidding


i'm just playing round JAMES!!!!! thanks for sharing....

[400exrider707]

Thats crazy! First time I've ever seen NiCaSil cylinder come apart like that! Sure would like to know what caused it, I guess we may never know though...

On my plated cylinders I too only clean them with warm soap and water, no sanding, if it still doesn't have cross-hatching, I get a new cylinder, no questions asked. I am by no means a professional engine builder, but I like to think I take a safe and logical approach to building my motors.

[GPracer2500]

I wet sand (320 or 400 grit) my factory Nikasil'd CR250R cylinder by hand to deglaze. It's had I don't know how many piston's in it over it's lifetime and is still to spec. Many recommend Scotchbrite pads. I've tried that but I never felt like they gave me enough "bite" to clear out stubborn debris from the crosshatch. I've always deglazed even if it didn't look like it needed it. I figure just cause I can't see particles with my naked eye doesn't mean they aren't there.

Practically speaking, unless you're using a diamond hone you're not going to dimensionally change a Nikasil'd bore. If anyone has contrary evidence on that, please speak up so I can consider it. I'm not interested in an argument. I just want the best information.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0115Image0001-1.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0115Image0002.jpg

if a engine [builder] does not know anythink about honing a cylinder then they should not be touching anyones engine

they have only been honing cylinder for around 40years or more


GPacer2500 tell us how you feel about sanding a cylinder...
if you can hurt nikasil with sand paper then there's something wrong with that nikasil

and that was done back in feb or so........and now because i honed the cylinder the plating came off :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Buck, those marks look more like flaked off coating and the underlying aluminum that got pounded around in the combustion chamber than deto damage. I couldn't be totally confident without seeing really good macro pictures of having the piston in my hand. But those marks look more like debris damage than the heat transfer damage that deto can cause.

[BSTURDIVANT]

Looks like a plating problem! Could have been cracked a while and flaked off. I've seen the coating torn off- but that looks like a bonding issue and comes off in pieces!

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by BSTURDIVANT
Looks like a plating problem! Could have been cracked a while and flaked off. I've seen the coating torn off- but that looks like a bonding issue and comes off in pieces!

yes, I agree with you and GPracer that the flaking caused the condition to worsen...

I've seen where strong piston side loading can cause the aluminum behind the plating to push and crack....

given the power buck had on his big bore 480 this should be the cause...

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
yes, I agree with you and GPracer that the flaking caused the condition to worsen...

I've seen where strong piston side loading can cause the aluminum behind the plating to push and crack....

given the power buck had on his big bore 480 this COULD be the cause...

[buck naked-r]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Buck, those marks look more like flaked off coating and the underlying aluminum that got pounded around in the combustion chamber than deto damage. I couldn't be totally confident without seeing really good macro pictures of having the piston in my hand. But those marks look more like debris damage than the heat transfer damage that deto can cause.

your right its a plating problem...i looked at the plating again today and it has alittle air bobbles in it........in spots that is not damaged in the pic.......im calling the guys the plated it tomorrow and see what they say,but i already ordered a new cylinder and piston just so i can ride...going down in bore and compression should cost me some power but my money won't let me do what i want to right now
so it's back to 13.5 compression on stock bore,but the head is shaved so comp will be alittle higher than that.......i was around 14.5 14.8 before

[speedfreaksguy]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
your right its a plating problem...i looked at the plating again today and it has alittle air bobbles in it........in spots that is not damaged in the pic.......im calling the guys the plated it tomorrow and see what they say

It's common to see porosity in a plated cylinder. Most of the time you won't see it in a new oem cylinder but its almost always visible in re-plated cylinders.

I agree it looks like a plating problem. Send it back and let them tell you what happened.

[buck naked-r]

i went with another CP piston,but lower compression......[i think]....

i rode it and its wayyy rich,it jerks went it gets close to the limiter.....i'll try and hit the dyno in the morning and see whats the difference in power....480/14.1 vs 450/13.5

i had to clay check the head again cause the head was shaved some more...with a total of .025 maybe alittle more off the head.... .015 more was removed this time so compression should be around 14.9 [i think]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0119Image0001.jpg

dome is higher on the 13.5,im guessing because it's a smaller piston,but it still has channels cut in it

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0119Image0003.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0119Image0007.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0119Image0004.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0119Image0005.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0119Image0006.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0119Image0010.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0119Image0011.jpg