Why bother posting?

[sandmanblue]

I've had a couple ppl accuse me of starting crap of late, and just as a little food for thought....

I ask questions about posts where I see problems in the accuracy or integrity of the poster. All of my questions can be answered with measured data - NOT more BS. It's that simple. I don't have an agenda - just a desire for facts.

I've been around long enough to see through the babblings of the pretenders. You know - the ones that post all the time and make it sound like they know a lot, but then can't really back up what they say with measured results. You younger ppl are just learning to NOT trust most of what you see here. You should be skeptical when ppl have an agenda that involves removing money from your pocket, or one based on hatred of competition.

I catch a lot of flack for asking people to prove themselves. The thing is, it would be hypocritical of myself to not prove results or show data - and if I have data, I show it. I'm not afraid. I have nothing to fear. It is the posers that refuse to back up their claims that are afraid - beware of them. They fear anyone that confronts them with facts and data. They fear opinions that differ from their own. They know they can't survive when they are asked for proof - so they sidetrack, destroy characters, name call... Anything but answer the questions....


I've thought, "Why bother posting?" But that means that this site becomes a pit of misinformation, theories, and opinions all based on who can sound the smartest and who can baffle whom with BS.... So, I will carry on.

In the end, if a few people question all that they read a bit more, then it was worth it.


I'll catch BS for this post too - it's expected. No poser can stand to be exposed....

[4ABURN]

I don't post too often, but I have to. sand man this is a very far statement, I under stand your point, I have been working on bikes for 25 years so I hear you. But you can't always tell peaple there full of it, I think the best way is to give your opionion(SP) back it up alittle, and hope ppl make the right choice, If you have given good advise before ppl will remember that and act on it. I have been on here alot this month and seen the DISCUSIONS......I would give both you guys my engine to work on.( IF I did'n do it myself.) Except porting. Any way I hope I didn't step on anyones toes!!!!! You know I was going to tell ppl that I tryed a new oil and love it(mobil 1 MX4T), but you say with no proof or facts about how good it is I should not post this !!!!!! Maybe your right but some times thats all ppl are looking for.(I think)....You guys are all great on here, ppl see the BS themselves so leave that up to them to deside.....:) ::D :D

My 2 cents , sorry for any hard feellings

[Johnny B]

i tell people things that worked for me. i dident go to school for mechanics or any school for that matter. but i aint no poser.

[sandmanblue]

There ARE times where you can't provide data - or it's beyond the understanding of most people here. An example would be an oil analysis of using that Mobil 1 oil. Am I qualified to give a good explanation of something like that? No. I leave that up to the oil companies to deal with. There is a very good oil comparison pdf on amsoil.com that shows the Mobil 1 oil doing very well. Of course, amsoil came out on top - because that's how marketing works. Are they the VERY best? I can't say for sure, but they provide a ton of DATA to back up their claims. That's how good info is shared. Another company doing the same test and coming up with the same results would be even better.

Giving people advice on a success that you have had is different than telling people that you have THE solution that is above all others - better - then refusing to provide any evidence that it is better.... That's what I am referring to as people that are posers.

Look at the "best pipe" threads. You'll get a ton of ppl that say their pipe of choice is the best - but they don't base it on any real comparative testing. They might like the pipe, but they are not proving anything - it's just an opinion - and one based not on facts or data, but on "feeling".... I don't think anyone would want to buy a product based on somebody else's "feelings"...... In that case, the people saying their pipe is the best without data are pretending to know more than they do - hence - poser....

[hendershot106]

not a bad post sandman----- all i have to say is to each his own-- everyone is entitled to there own opinions------ and the one thing that is certain is that parts willll fail break or wear out-- and that someone else always sees things differently than what u would yourself--- and inevitably will run their mouth about it and cause trouble like u stated--- like i said--- TO EACH HIS OWN-- if someone dont like a post -- so what---- its an open forum-- go find another one to post on about using zip ties on your 250ex or something--- but as many ppl are here for---- i am here to learn and help others with my experiences also ,sandman, and if i upset someone along the way because my bike dont break down the same way theres does,, i do maintenance diff,, i have a different part on my bike,,,, WHO CARES.

furthermore --- to u POSERS who dont race,,,,, and just watch or hang out b./c u have nothing better to do.... u need to keep your comments about us racers and our racing to yr dang self.

it is not fun to have to listen to the CLICHE statement-- of -" well i heard you said this about me at that other shop last week" or the classic " how come u took your motor over there??"
only not as nice as they are worded there-----

man-- i feel better now sandman-- thanks for starting this thread-- its a def stress reliever.

hendershot-

[250r4life]

I agree... and I am the same way- a lot of what i post on here is calling people out on BS to try and help out the less informed people...

however, i think it is ironic that you talk like you are completely unbiased and bring up that people slander other people who disagree, when i have seen you do the same...

now i wouldnt claim that im the ideal member by any means, i just call it how i see it...

point being, i think there is some hyprocrisy in this thread...

not trying to start stuff- just playing devils advocate... i still want to meet up to drag the hill a few times this year...

[Elduner]

Originally posted by 250r4life
I agree... and I am the same way- a lot of what i post on here is calling people out on BS to try and help out the less informed people...

however, i think it is ironic that you talk like you are completely unbiased and bring up that people slander other people who disagree, when i have seen you do the same...

now i wouldnt claim that im the ideal member by any means, i just call it how i see it...

point being, i think there is some hyprocrisy in this thread...

not trying to start stuff- just playing devils advocate... i still want to meet up to drag the hill a few times this year...


Good eye!

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by 250r4life
I agree... and I am the same way- a lot of what i post on here is calling people out on BS to try and help out the less informed people...

however, i think it is ironic that you talk like you are completely unbiased and bring up that people slander other people who disagree, when i have seen you do the same...

now i wouldnt claim that im the ideal member by any means, i just call it how i see it...

point being, i think there is some hyprocrisy in this thread...

not trying to start stuff- just playing devils advocate... i still want to meet up to drag the hill a few times this year...

It might appear that way if you join in the middle of things. Most of those threads are actually a continuation from threads way before where I got slammed and I'm still irritated that the posers still go out there posing. So I jump in knowing full well that they are still out to bash. To some ppl, that might look like I started it.... To others that know a little history, they have a different take on it.

Take the guy above here. ElDuner still can't get over the fact that I have a mixxer ported motor, so I am guilty by association since he hates mixxer - which is just ridiculous. I happen to be a happy customer, and he can't stand that. It gets in the way of his mixxer bashing sessions. Since mixxer isn't here, these guys target me.

Misdirected anger.... for sure.....

An interesting point is the recent porting thread, where the first post asks who to use, then one guy suggests Venom, then the next couple of posts bash Venom right away - even though the post didn't ask who NOT to use.... That's where the negativity starts.

I simply stated my experience and called out the guy that turned the post negative to begin with. If they had simply said "use DASA" instead of slamming Venom, then the thread wouldn't have even seen a post from me.

The problem is those that are claiming to be sooo great, don't show anything to prove it. They just bash those that they don't like and don't put up any data to show that they are indeed a better choice...

Look what happened when Turbo530R posted. Did I bash? NOOOO.


Take a look a little closer and you might find that the perceived hypocrisy isn't what it appears to be.....

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by sandmanblue


An interesting point is the recent porting thread, where the first post asks who to use, then one guy suggests Venom, then the next couple of posts bash Venom right away - even though the post didn't ask who NOT to use.... That's where the negativity starts.

I simply stated my experience and called out the guy that turned the post negative to begin with. If they had simply said "use DASA" instead of slamming Venom, then the thread wouldn't have even seen a post from me.


I've often found myself in the same/similar shoes. Problem is not everyone is going to listen to what you say, and some are so thick-skulled they will never get the concept at hand anyways. Sometimes the best you can do is just put the information out there and hope some take it in.

Also as a completely unbiased quad guy, I have seen discussions between you and others where I couldn't get either one of you to post any factual information to back up your claims. I guess you could write it off as you "questioning" posted claims, but some may perceive that "questioning" as bashing. Like I said, I'm completely unbiased and when I ask for proof it's merely to further my knowledge on the subject. I do appreciate info from both sides of the table here, but I wouldn't say you've been completely innocent either.... Just how I see it. Also like you said I know most of this came about a long time ago, and I wasn't around too much for that, so I would say there is still probably still some parts of the story I dont know.... and I dont want to know. If you're using this post to vent then right on, if you feel like you need to prove yourself or are trying to explain your reactions, no need man, just keep posting good tech info, thats all the site really needs.

[hungus07trx400]

This is an open forum. Anything can be said, at any time, about anything, to anyone. It's how forums work. You end up reading a lot of stuff that you don't agree with, and may even feel compelled to argue back. That's human nature. The fact that we're all behind a screen makes it even easier for Joe Timid to say something, which is fine, because that's why this is here. Information gets rattled through this website at an alarming rate, and it's up to each individual person to filter out what they perceive to be true and helpful. I think it's the babbling back and forth, the worrying about who's for real or not, and the arguments that stem from it that seem to gum this site up. I've only been on here for 2 months or so, but have been on forums of this EXACT type for years now, and you know what? It's all the same. Personally, I just try to not worry about who's "posing" because, do I REALLY care if some 13 year old is full of it? Do I really care if some 50 year old is full of it? No. In my opinion, it is up to each individual to make their own assessment of the info they take in. I hear people talking out of their rear all the time in day to day life, but I don't bother walking up to each one and saying, "Hey I think you're full of S---, just to let you know." LOL imagine if we all did that. Imagine seeing a 40 year old man walking up to a family at the mall after overhearing their 4 year old telling a story about how he once flew his imaginary hippo to the moon, and the guy goes "AHHHHH I Don't think so, you're full of it. I'll need to see some facts first before i believe any of that crap." An extreme example...but think about it....should we really care if others, especially over a computer.....are full of it? Caveat Emptor....Buyer Beware.

[ESrider]

The last two posts both show a really good perspective about forum etiquette and perception. One persons idea of proof is taking their bike for a ride to see how a new part performs and another would use a dyno or graphs, charts and statistical data. Most inforamtion is still helpful whether good or bad, proven or not it will always get people talking about it and thats what forums are about.;)

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
....... just keep posting good tech info, thats all the site really needs.

You're right on the mark here. As long as it's good info.....

I think that's where the conflicts arise. Info can only be "good" if it's verifiable, otherwise it's bad info... And we are not dealing with 4 year old kids posting here. I think it's obvious when you read the younger kids posts and I don't bother with them much at all. It's the adults that post info that is either unverifiable, or factually inaccurate, that I am addressing.

You know, there are a ton of sites out there where ppl can have discussions without slamming anybody. There will always be a difference of "opinions" and I realize that. But, when data is shown, there's nothing to disagree about. It ends the discussion and people learn from it.

Follow this last scenario, if you will...

1. Joe mods his motor and uses a bunch of parts, then goes out and says it's really fast.

2. Jim mods his motor and uses a bunch of stuff, then takes it to a dyno, or a dragstrip, or someplace similar where results can be measured. Then reports his results.

3. Jim and Joe got on this website and say that their motor makes more power than the other.


You can't believe anything Joe says, because he has not data. Nothing. His quad might be faster, but it might not.....

Who of these two has provided good info?

(hint - it's not Joe.....)

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
You're right on the mark here. As long as it's good info.....

I think that's where the conflicts arise. Info can only be "good" if it's verifiable, otherwise it's bad info... And we are not dealing with 4 year old kids posting here. I think it's obvious when you read the younger kids posts and I don't bother with them much at all. It's the adults that post info that is either unverifiable, or factually inaccurate, that I am addressing.

You know, there are a ton of sites out there where ppl can have discussions without slamming anybody. There will always be a difference of "opinions" and I realize that. But, when data is shown, there's nothing to disagree about. It ends the discussion and people learn from it.

Follow this last scenario, if you will...

1. Joe mods his motor and uses a bunch of parts, then goes out and says it's really fast.

2. Jim mods his motor and uses a bunch of stuff, then takes it to a dyno, or a dragstrip, or someplace similar where results can be measured. Then reports his results.

3. Jim and Joe got on this website and say that their motor makes more power than the other.


You can't believe anything Joe says, because he has not data. Nothing. His quad might be faster, but it might not.....

Who of these two has provided good info?

(hint - it's not Joe.....)


I see what you are saying and I'm pretty sure most of the people who have responded to this thread so far already know what is going on. You can absolutely post good info with nothing to back it up. Sometimes... A LOT of times.... rider reports are all we have to go on. Think of it as a tire discussion. A lot of tire discussions all are based on what people have tried... they have no data that tire "A" hooks up better than tire "B" other than the fact that tire "A" seemed to work better on their setup. Now most of us know that the setup of the quad, riding style, terrain all this can play an effect on tire decision.

Now say "Joe" posts some info about how much better his ported head is than anyone elses without posting some good info to back it up. Well what it comes down to is, either you think its the greatest thing since sliced bread, and you really dont know whats going on, or you are skeptical about it. You would fall under the skeptical category, but you're not alone. Anyone who has a head on their shoulders knows better than to jump on something like this without data to back it up. Those who dont, probably aren't going to get it anyway. Like I said, sometimes all you can do is put the info out there and hope people take it in... no point in pushing the subject.

A few months ago I got into a heated debate about why "widening kits" with a group of younger people. After explaining many times in full detail ... some just still didn't get it. I then realized after most of my posts had been deleted, that it wasn't worth it. Put the info out and let them take it in, if they so choose. Thus my steering and handling thread... No more arguing and some people learned some valuable info. My suggestion, take a more pro-active approach. If you want to discuss something or try and argue a point, open up a new thread and post your ideas/results/findings and have a good discussion about it.

I've learned an awful lot of motor building tips and tricks as well as what the inside of what one of these motors looks like, before ever touching my motor. A certain "Joe" brought that information to this site for me and others to read, and I am thankful for that. I think both "Joe" and "Jim" can be useful to this site.


My .02

[hendershot106]

Originally posted by 400exrider707


I've learned an awful lot of motor building tips and tricks as well as what the inside of what one of these motors looks like, before ever touching my motor. A certain "Joe" brought that information to this site for me and others to read, and I am thankful for that. I think both "Joe" and "Jim" can be useful to this site.


My .02

i agree 400ex 707--

as we too have had our "disagreements" but in the end--- i learned something new from u. even though at the time i was blind to it,,, (still havent seen one personally) but-- u put out the info--- and i learned something from it- as far as "jim" and joe" are concerned-- lol- they both have useful advice to put out on the forum. and yes they both are guilty, as well, as i am,, or u are 707-- like i have said before--- everyone has there own opinion- and way of learning- some prefer to learn first hand by experience to help others (jim,joe maybe????) others prefer taking advice or seeing something then trying it. others design new things completely to try out.

in the end of the day the only thing that matters to me is that i learn at least one new thing a day- and maybe help someone younger, older, slower, faster than me out, how i am to know that the next time i am at a race that i will be pitted beside of someone from atvriders.com that has already come up with a bad impression of me--- that could have been a potential best friend,,, sponsor- or connection- DID YOU ALL EVER THINK ABOUT THAT???

thats My 2 cents-----