riders with skat-trak paddles chime in pls

[EX LONERIDER]

ok, so ive come down to decide my next set of paddles are gonna be a set of skat-trak haulers. my modifications are in my sig. i have a preference to the 20x11x10 size paddle since its a nicer looking wheel and tire package. here's the question though...

what paddle count are you guys running? ive read on to see people running 6 paddles, and some 7 paddles. im a heavy guy weighing in at 260 lbs. so i know i can lay power down to the ground. im currently running a 14T to a 38T gear wise. i also have a 15T spare. with the 20" tall tire, i was just slightly under geared so i figure a 15T counter may fix that.

i would like to know what you dune guys are running... if it helps any, i am in socal so i go to the imperial sand dunes just east of yuma (buttercup, gordon's, ogilby.... etc) soooo what do you guys run???

[Wheelie]

I run 20x10x10 8-paddle extreme haulers with the stock 15/38 gearing, and couldn't be happier. The stroker had no problem turning the paddles, even with the stock carb.


I haven't been back to the dunes since the 450R carb install.

BTW--ITP wheels are the only way to fly.

[EX LONERIDER]

wow... thats not bad at all. it dont bog at all??? i know the haulers are a fairly hooky tire but those extrames look just nasty aggressive...

thanks for the input

[JOEX]

Originally posted by EX LONERIDER
wow... thats not bad at all. it dont bog at all??? i know the haulers are a fairly hooky tire but those extrames look just nasty aggressive...

thanks for the input
The Extremes only have a thicker paddle than the regular Hauler. Not really more aggressive.

[GPracer2500]

Bear in mind, the sand found at different dune locations can call for different paddles. In my not-so-scientific survey of popular opinion, the ISDRA dunes want less paddle than many other places for the best performance. What works great in the dunes found in the north east are probably not ideal for Glamis. That said, my opinions are based on ISDRA riding....

I've found it's far easier to overpaddle than underpaddle. AND, I'd rather be slightly underpaddled than overpaddled. I think I'd be happy with a 6 paddle Hauler, maybe a 7 paddle.

One of the last paddle tire tests I did compared an 8 paddle Extreme Hauler with a 6 paddle Hauler on a Raptor700. I preferred the 6 paddle between those two. I could climb Oldsmobile hill in 5th gear with the 6 paddlers (barely). It was impossible to do that with the 8 Extremes. Using 5th wasn't the fastest way to the top but it's a good example of the difference in different paddles' ability to stay on top of a tall gear without dragging the engine down. And I felt I could launched just fine with the 6's. My buddy (and owner of the Raptor) seemed to walk away for our testing feeling like a 7 paddle Hauler would probably be the best all-around tire for him. He felt he lost some of the Rap7's prodigious wheelieing ability with the 6 paddles. It still wheelied well, just not quite as effortlessly as with his 8 Extremes.

Picking the best tire is mostly an exercise in finding the best balance between performance characteristics. If you like to drag race, DON'T overpaddle.

$0.02

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by JOEX
The Extremes only have a thicker paddle than the regular Hauler. Not really more aggressive.

Extremes are more aggressive. Because the each paddle is thicker they deflect less under load. That translates into more traction. Some will say that a 7 paddle Extreme Hauler performs similarly to an 8 paddle Hauler.

Hauler:
http://www.skat-trak.com/media_pics/paddles/Hauler_wb.jpg

Extreme:
http://www.skat-trak.com/media_pics/paddles/extreme_wb.jpg

[JOEX]

That makes sense;)

[EX LONERIDER]

lots of good info...

gpracer, you prove a good point in over-paddling. id rather be under then over in this case as well. i think the raptor is gonna have a hell of alot more torque then a 400 does and will likely not be affected as much as a smaller bike. so going with a smaller paddle would be wise.

i dont do alot of drag racing... though when i do i usually go up comp hill out there. like you said, a 6 or 7 paddle may be a wise choice.

now, from what i can tell since the extremes are thicker, they are going to flex less or less likely to flex much at all for that matter right?? that would have a little more give letting it spin more...

ive been told by some of the "old desert guys" that you usually want 10-15% wheel spin in the sand so not to drag the motor down... if this holds true then im thinking a 6 or 7 paddle regular hauler will do just fine for my bike.

[GPracer2500]

FWIW, I've found Comp hill isn't as sensitive to paddle type/count as some others hills (like Olds because of it's length or China Wall because of it's steepness). Tires can make or break you on a long hill and/or very steep hill. The differences are still there on Comp and other places, just not as dramatic.

Extremes should bite more and spin less. Don't confuse blade deflection with carcass flex. The carcases are essentially the same: Extreme Hauler vs. regular Hauler. Only the "beefiness" of the paddle blades themselves are different. Even though the Extreme paddle blades are the same 7/8" height, their thicker profile won't "fold back" on themselves as much as they grab at the sand.

You can use tire pressure to adjust traction and "spinnability". More pressure = less carcass flex = smaller contact patch = more spin. I'll run some paddles at 3psi because I want more bite and others at as much as 10 psi because I want more spin.

I bet you'd be happy with either a 6 Hauler, 6 Extreme, or 7 Hauler. The harder and more aggressively you ride the more I'd be inclined to suggest the 6 Hauler. In other words, the more time you spend in 4th and 5th gear, the better the 6 Hauler will be. If half or more of your rides are lazier with more chugging around at relaxed paces, then the 7 Hauler might feel nicer. Without having the opportunity to try out different paddles back-to-back it's hard to say for sure.



I think the "old desert guys" are right (although I've never heard it quantified like that). We definitely need a certain amount of spin for the best performance in the sand. On most surfaces, when the tires break loose you go from good traction to almost no traction. That doesn't seem to happen in the sand--especially with paddles. Aside from really slow speed, low gear stuff, letting the tires break free just gets you some additional wheel speed but they don't spin up and go way faster than your actual forward speed. You're still getting good traction but just doing it with faster wheel speed. The way the paddles blades interact with the sand just won't let them spin wildly once your out of maybe second or third gear. Once you're carrying some speed, extra wheel spin just lets you go faster. Sometimes that spin even lets you grab that higher gear to allow even MORE wheel speed and even FASTER quad speed.

Sidenote: It's interesting because I believe this point is one of the reasons Banshees are such good dune ATVs. Banshees normally have terrible traction characteristics (thanks in large part to the rapid-fire power pulses of it's twin cylinder two stroke engine). They just spin their tires too much. Sure, that's fun sometimes--but on a trail or MX track it isn't the fastest way to go. But this situation practically flip-flops into an advantage in the dunes. Banshees love to spin their tires and the dunes are exactly where you can turn that characteristic into an advantage.

Crap, I write too much. :eek:

[JOEX]

Originally posted by GPracer2500

Extremes should bite more and spin less. Don't confuse blade deflection with carcass flex. The carcases are essentially the same: Extreme Hauler vs. regular Hauler. Only the "beefiness" of the paddle blades themselves are different. Even though the Extreme paddle blades are the same 7/8" height, their thicker profile won't "fold back" on themselves as much as they grab at the sand.

Crap, I write too much. :eek:
I have a set of both, Extreme's and regular Haulers. These particular Extremes are narrower and rounder and my regulars are wider and flatter. I have also heard at some point in the past Skat Trak was using a different and heavier carcass, possibly because lack of available the prefered carcass:confused: IDK.

Do you have any info and or input on this?


BTW, you don't write too much;) :D

[EX LONERIDER]

by no means yer writing too much... im soaking all this stuff in as i hope others will too. you make alot of sence by what you say.

yea, the whole tire spin idea was told to me a while back by a couple of the older guys that i hung out with at the dunes. the traction issue came up and is vaugely what i remember. the percent i gave was about what they told me however i doubt there is a specific number you need to go for... just generally speaking you do need to have some tire spin.

i know about the PSI in the tire trick for traction. that gets you more of a fine tune on the tire you have. much of when i was out there, the sand was pretty hard so i usually used a higher psi. days it was softer i used lower psi for better traction as well as floatation.

i usually go to the same dunes every trip so i know what i need to gear my bike twards in regards of gearing and tires. like you said though its a tough choice when you dont have the cash to go spend on tires to test em out back to back to get your desired result.

joex brings another point i was also wondering about.... the extremes are a rounder paddle tire from what i noticed as opposed to the regular haulers wich are flatter. what diffrence have you noticed in both?? do the rounder ones handle better on twisty windy stuff? or???

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by JOEX
I have a set of both, Extreme's and regular Haulers. These particular Extremes are narrower and rounder and my regulars are wider and flatter. I have also heard at some point in the past Skat Trak was using a different and heavier carcass, possibly because lack of available the prefered carcass:confused: IDK.

Do you have any info and or input on this?


No specific input beyond what I believe to be true; which is that there is no designed-in difference in the carcass of Haulers and Extreme Haulers. I might be wrong, but my understanding is the only designed-in difference is in the blades.

I say "designed-in" because Skat-Trak has/does use different tires to make their paddles. As I'm sure most of us know, they start out with a normal knobbie tire they buy from someone else, shave off the knobs, and "glue" on their own blades. I've seen Skat-Traks with different carcasses but I don't think that has anything to do with Extreme vs. Hauler. Again, if I'm wrong and anyone has info on that then please share.

Also, check the width of the rims on the tire/wheel combos being compared. This sometimes goes unmentioned and unnoticed when discussing paddle tire sizes. 1 inch differences in rim width (8" vs. 9" is pretty common) will change the tire profile noticeably even if the tire's size is the same. As you'd expect, an 8" width rim will give the tire a more rounded profile than a 9" rim. Note that the measurement is taken from the inside edge of the bead sealing surface. Measured from the very edge of the rim to the very edge of the other side it comes out to more like 9" vs. 10" depending on the rim.

Yet another thing to consider is different levels of buff. Most Skat-Traks are single buff. But they also make bead-to-bead (BB) buff and triple buff. Triple buffs leave the carcass really thin for weight reduction. I haven't seen enough examples to say, but I suppose different buff levels may allow the carcass to take a little bit different shape. Buff level is independent of Hauler vs. Extreme Hauler.

I do believe Skat-Traks have changed over the years. I've been told that Hauler blade height even changed some time ago. I don't really know exactly what's what with that.

[EX LONERIDER]

ive heard the same thing about the carcass use from buffed down knobies. they then vulcanise the blades on it. as far as how much they buff off i never heard of this. i figure the thinner the tire (tripple buff for example) would be less reliable since its more likely to get a puncture or wear out sooner?

now, with the wheel/tire combo's what would be a lighter combination? a bigger wheel with a smaller sidewall? (20/10/10 with a 10" wheel) or a smaller wheel with more tire? (21/10/8 with a 8" wheel)??? if we are talking both tires being a tripple buff and same blade count?

[GPracer2500]

You've got me all riled up about sand tires since the season is around the corner.... :huh

Triple buff is surely less reliable. It's mostly a no-compromise competition tire. I'm not sure I'd want to run one for general use (although you could). Sometimes triple buff is called "superlight" or "ultralight". You're not going to find them through the typical outlets. You need to go through a retailer that specializes in Skat-Trak products. They're also not cheap. To get one in a 20x10x10 you'd probably have to have Skat-Trak make it for you special (which they will do). My impression is that when people start getting into a tire like a triple buff they're not wanting 10" rims or 20" tires.

Here's a picture of one. I believe it's a 22x11x8. That might be a BB buff but I'm pretty sure it's triple. I'm not sure how to tell the difference from a picture.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/3X.jpg

If you're in the market for a high-end, high performance tire then you should also be looking at comp cut (or perhaps play cut) STU Padla Brats. Some consider those to be the very best (as in fast) there is. If I could afford them I'd have a set. STU makes some really nice paddles and if you have them cut you can wind up with some really good paddles--the kind of thing you're not going to find in a RockyMountain catalog.

Here are comp cut Brats. As you can see, they are not designed for durability. I wouldn't expect a triple buff hauler to really be any more durable. You can get Brats in a play cut too. Those would be more durable and still higher performing than no cut.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/compcutbratsMedium.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/compcutbrats2Medium.jpg


The guy that cuts these calls them (I believe) the Tebos cut. The start as a STU Desert Traks before getting a play/comp cut. I'm told they're not as fast as comp cut Brats but handle better and don't handle as well as comp cut Sand Skate I's but are faster.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/350pv.jpg
BTW, I believe that is a 350PV engine in that 250r.


I had some Sand Sharks laying around that I decided were crap tires for my application so I tried my hand at comp cutting. I was shooting for 6 paddle Hauler performance and almost got there. I took nearly 5lbs of rubber off each tire.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6854/p2110177mediumzx7.jpg


As far as weight difference between the example you mentioned, I'm not sure. I don't think there would be a huge difference. I've had Sand sharks in both 8" and 10" rim sizes and they weighed about the same.

On a single buff (by far the most common buff among most rec riders) Hauler you can sometimes even see remnants of the knobs on the carcass. They don't always buff them down exactly the same and sometimes you can make out where the knobs use to be.

[EX LONERIDER]

well... tis the season to get riled up. desert season is but 2 months (if that) away and im excited and doing research.

well... i was running 20/11/10 sand skate II's and they pretty much just edged off last season. i think these tries are not gonna hold up to my 440 once i get out there again even with low psi. i havent bought a paddle tire in 5 years (how long ive had the sand skates) so i need to find out every option i have.

people have suggested the sand stars but im more aggressive of a rider and need something a bit more suitable. all this info is definately helping out and definately appreciate it.:cool:

i guess the only thing at this point is to go buy a set of paddles that i think will suite my bike best and try em out in hopes that it'll hit the right note.

[triple b]

Great info guys.....Thanks