New 450s vs the old 250Rs.

[criminalpoet]

For those that have owned both only!
Which one is better all the way around and why? Faster, better handling etc.

[JOEX]

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=309562

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=309260

[400ex28]

This could turn out bad.

[Scott-300ex]

I've ridden the 450's, didn't care for them.

Obviously I like the 250r better.

250r's respond to mods much better, are very fast, you can't out handle or suspension one.

When you get on a 250r and come out of a turn or are goin straight and hit it on the throttle and it throws you back and that front end comes up, unexpectedley, its AWSOME, and then your just like, "Wtf..................How the F**k am I still holding on."

But I'd say go ride them, on straights and trails.

[DVXracer]

Who cares which is better ? :confused:

Its only personal preferance anyway. :rolleyes:

[Mxjunkie]

Originally posted by DVXracer
Who cares which is better ? :confused:

Its only personal preferance anyway. :rolleyes:


He cares because he made this thread, so if people have their personal perferance let them post it so the person who made this thread will see differnt opinions.. I dont think he like's yours.. :scary:

I like the over all feel and fit of the 250r more and since I am a 2 stroke guy I do love a 265 or a 330 in one.. But for overall racing performance I would have to go with the thumper because it's just easyier to ride then the 2 stroke. I did a race on a buddys 250r with a 350x motor in it and it didnt tire me out as much as the 86 250r he has. The 450s handling is amazing and they are just easyier to ride, I think if your just going to be riding a 250r is great, racing aspects 450 all the way.

[450rJam]

on average the market says the 450r

the 250r held its resale value for 20 years
(even through the 400 era)

but the 450's have done what the 400's couldnt

the 250r is an awsome performance quad
but the 450r was better for me

I had both for a year and ended up selling the 250r
so you know which I liked better

[Pappy]

both machines bone stock, the 450r will eat it in every catagory with the exception of fun factor (2 strokes are just fun)

modified, it is almost a tie for an EXPIERENCED rider but the pro's ive chatted with said their 450s of today best the R's of yesteryear. that could be a combination of technology exceeding what was avaialble for the R combined with the riding style and track changes we find today.

[criminalpoet]

Well I already have a built 89 250 R, but ive been entertaining the thought of building a 450. I just want to know the answers to my questions so that I know wether or not it would even be worth it to build a 450. Ive never been beat by any 4 stroke on my 250r, but ive never raced a fully built 450 either. Ive raced some in the desert that were fairly built, but nothing out of a Huevos video or anything lol. Heres a pic of my bike!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pa5b200458676f3efe13e8fcb5c55857c/e896b4d8.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pc79454e4f5abda3e7a17e84c7382f22a/e896b7d9.jpg

[LTandRaptorider]

That is a sweet looking R!!

mxjunkie hit the nail on the head about a 450 being less tiring to ride. I have a built LT250R, alwys loved riding it. But after having my LT-R450 for over a year, I am liking it a little better. I think the fun factor is still greater on the 250, but not by much. And after a several hour rip on the 450 through the woods, I am MUCH less tired. If you can afford it, I recommend having both. I am nearing completion of the latest rebuild of my LT250 and can't wait to ride it again. But it certainly won't replace my 450. ;)

[trick450r]

i like my 450r better than my 250r...thats all i can say haha






p.s, yes i own both

[criminalpoet]

For those of you who have owned both, and are picking the 450s over the 250r, are or were your 450 and 250R equally decked out with engine work, chasis mods, and suspension? What im looking for is a real world comparison, built 450 vs a built 250r. Thanks for the replies guys!

[ZRider400]

ive owned both...

hands down a modded R chassis handles best.

In the motor department i chose a modded 450 over the 2-stroke.

[cdrookie]

i couldn't stand my xc 450r, sold it and went back to the 250r. IMO pappy is only half right. a stock 450r isn't close to handling as good as a stock 250r. but motor wise a stock 250r is like a stock 400ex. 2 strokes are cheaper to make faster and are more reliable than the new generation 4 strokes, not to mention way easier to work on.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by cdrookie
IMO pappy is only half right. a stock 450r isn't close to handling as good as a stock 250r.

i took both a stock 450r and a bone stock 86 R out tonight and i my opinion still stands. ive owned a fully decked out 450r (LT) and a LRD chassis R (one of bill's) and its close, with the 250r being more fun

the funnest quad ive ever owned was an almost stock 250r.

[450rJam]

power wise my 06 hrc 450r would kill my 87 piped,jetted,k&n,no lid, fresh top end 250r.

pappy is right about the fun factor, I loved it in the sand where all you had to do was give the clutch half a pull and nail it and you where raising hell.

but the 450r does the same with a blip of the throttle.

my 250r did set lower and handle better but the 450r shocks where alot easier on my old arse knees when jumping.
(but the 250r had stock 1987 shocks, 19 years old)

like above, the 2 strokes take more energy to play/race

[250r4life]

my YFZ in my sig would walk away from the 250r in my sig...

the YFZ stock suspension is considerably better than that of the 250r...

handling, i think they both handle great, although i would give the edge to the 250r...

i will admit that there isnt a more fun ride than the 250r, but i dont think the YFZ is far behind... that is a lot of what i like about the YFZ- it does have a nice hit and likes to be revved like a 2 stroke...

on the YFZ its nice not to have to mix gas, not to have to run race fuel... have an electric starter, and a warranty...

it the YFZ wasnt out, i wouldnt think of selling my R... the other 450s are a notch below IMO... but since the YFZ is out and i do have one, im afraid im going to sell the R...

[chris46250r]

I've owned both and sold the 450 so that answers that. I think the main reason I like the 250r over the 450 is I have had a 250r since 86. Its what I compare everything else to. Kinda like the favorite pair of blue jeans thing.

[criminalpoet]

Well, after taking all of your opinions into consideration I have concluded that it probably just wouldnt be very practical for me to build up a 450. Because it wouldnt really be any better, or not better enough to justify the cost and time to complete such a project.

I mainly do desert racing which is balls out so shifting just isnt that big of a deal. However I really dont mind shifting because im the type of rider that likes to be active with the machine anyways.

Thank you all for your opinions!

[reptikes]

I have a TRX 450r which was stock until yesterday. One of my best friends (also my riding buddy) has an 86' 250r with an 89' long rod engine. Now his 250r is PORT and POLISHED, it has a REV BOX, PSI BIG AIR CARB, K&N no lid, Bored 80 over, FMF pipe, PRO CIRCUIT Exhaust, WISECO Piston, we don't know the exact compression, but know its 200 lbs. of compression, he runs around 108 octane. Im 180 lbs. he wieghts aroung 140-150 lbs. and with my 450 stock on pavement i would pull ahead until 3rd and he would catch up and be able to pass me and his top speed was faster than mine. WELL, yesterday i put on a ROSSIER full exhaust, HRC needle, 185 MJ, HRC type lid, i have a BIG GUN REV BOX (but did NOT use it). So we raced on pavement twice before we went riding yesterday and i owned him from the beginning to the end. NOT once was he able to keep the distance between us the same, i just kept pulling ahead more and more. I've been riding since 2.8.07 hes been riding for 10 years.

Although id like to have a 250r to play with. They are a lot of fun. I don't think you can go wrong with either one. I don't think the difference between them is big enough to say one is better than the other. Its what you like the feel of and what you want.

well handling on the 450 is pretty good but remmeber the 450s were just trying to live up to what the 250r did for so long. The both quad with usualy mods like pipes, rejet, filter the 450 shhould win. However i found once the 250r is a nice built 265 or more the edge goes to the pinger. Go with a nice built 310,330 or 350R and youll be ahead of the 450s and you wont have to worry as uch about blowing up an expensive 4 stroke motor. the 330Rs are pretty relieable (as long as they are taken care of). Remember all those 450s you see the pros on are built as much as possible and they dont care about relieabilty, alot of those 450 motors dont last very long, but a 330R with a clean filter,jetted right on and with the right mixture can last a very long time.

Bottomline id go with the 250r,They are less expensive, turn heads (especially now days with everyone on 450s) Very simple motor to work on, will last a long time and are alot more fun to ride then a thumper

[450rJam]

its all 100% opinion which is best

and whats best for one may not be best for the next guy/gal

like I said, the market on the 250r's have fallen out the bottom
you use to see extreme built 250r's going for 10k +
now you dont see any going for over 5k
the 450r did what the 400ex couldnt (it retired the 250r)

still cool like the 69 camaro or the original mach1 mustangs
just not top of the line anymore

[criminalpoet]

Heres the mods list on my 89 250r, if I did drop the coin on a properly built 450 Honda or Yamaha, would I say at the end "Damn im glad I built it!".


Motor:
270cc class Hi Rev motor:

1 Dir Racing aggressive MX/Dune X-3 porting professionally blue printed, clayed, flowed, matched to design model with S.C.T swirl charged induction.

1 Dir Racing LTD LIFE TIME WARRANTY crankshaft/long rod, Lightened, balanced, welded trued. tempered hi-rate bearings

1 Dir Racing custom billet "Hemi-Pro cool head" which provides a pure hemispherical combustion chamber for more power and a full bath cooling system, running 200psi of compression,

Everything in the top end is custom ceramic, friction, and barrier coated, This helps the motor run extremely cool in the harshest of riding conditions and is a must have when implementing design variables. These HiTec coatings are all design standards in house at 1 Dir Racing.

1 Dir Racing S.C.T intake with velocity tube equiped to run with boost jet.

1 Dir Racing G3 Power Curve Reed Valve equiped with pro powered D-2 set-up,

1 Dir Racing case mods & fully polished,

1 Dir Racing tranny mods,

1 Dir Racing high performance clutch mods,

1 Dir Racing shifter mods,

NGK coil,

Over sized PWR radiator,

Billet radiator temp gauge,

Keihin 39mm PWK carb riffled and tappered by 1 Dir Racing,

PT High Rev pipe,

Chrome pipe coupler,

K&N clamp on filter with outterwear,

200 watt stator,

Everything has been flow tested and balanced by 1 Dir Racing.


Chasis/other:

Clarke 4 gallon desert tank,

DR chrome front bumper,

chrome handlebar clamp,

DR billet ebrake block off plate,

1 Dir Racing +2+1 arms with adjustable camber/castor,

+2 steering stem chrome dipped in 1 Dir Racings chrome shop,

1 Dir Racing powder coated frame, dark grey with metalic blue flake,

Billet thumb throttle cover,

1 Dir Racing steel braided brake lines,

All wiring and wiring harnesses are brand new and done by 1 Dir Racing,

Durablue Eliminator axel,

Durablue rear hubs,

Billet rear sprocket,

D.I.D Gold chain,

Renthal bars,

nerf bars,

alluminum grab bar with 6 pak rak,

WORKS tripple rate front suspension,

WORKS tripple rate rear shock w/rezzy,

ITP Baja rims front and back,

20x11x9 Kenda Knarlys on the rear,

21x7x10 Kenda Klaws on the front,

custom leather seat,

And FullBore plastics.

On the way:

Polished alluminum radiator shrouds,

Billet grille,

Tusk biller gas cap, silver.

[coryatver]

Originally posted by 450rJam

the 450r did what the 400ex couldnt (it retired the 250r)


The 450 didn't retire the 250r the AMA did when they went production

^^^ very true

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
The 450 didn't retire the 250r the AMA did when they went production

when the factories got involved, they were not going to promote a 20 year old model. place the blame on the one's who stopped building it versus the ones who need the money to keep the sport of racing alive. the new quads have helped propel our sport and to discount them is pointless. and what was the latest new part developed soley for the 250r? the aftermarket gets it's cake off what being raced. the new thumpers have opened this sport up to the masses.

IMO they should offer the 250r again, even if it had a CR250 motor and still had a square frame it would still sell like hotcakes! I understand they want to promote their new product as "the best ever" but the 250r should of still be able to race

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Honda86
IMO they should offer the 250r again, even if it had a CR250 motor and still had a square frame it would still sell like hotcakes! I understand they want to promote their new product as "the best ever" but the 250r should of still be able to race

service honda offers it and its a slow mover. and the 250r can still race, its just those that actually RACE dont run them, all you see online is those that WANT to race cry about how great they are. ive chatted with length with pro riders about this issue, and few offer anything beyond" the 250r had its day".

is the 250r a great quad? sure it is

can the 250r be competitive today? with a good rider anything can be

will riding a 250r make you the best there is? umm..no

are the people spouting 2 strokes rule making any sense? not if they understand the concept of growing market segment within this country and keeping with current trends in the racing scenes.

do those same people actually do any racing or even own a 250r? lol..a big fat no, the mere thought of owning a legendary R keeps them trying to keep the dream alive until they can afford a thrashed 20 year old unit or hope and pray somehow the manufactures do a complete 180 so that when they can afford them there will be a model to buy.

does beating a dead horse help? only if your interested in smacking your gums instead of spending seat time riding, which btw is where im off to.

[mod440ex]

. 2 strokes are cheaper to make faster and are more reliable than the new generation 4 strokes, not to mention way easier to work on. [/B][/QUOTE]

how can you say a 2 stroke is more reliabel, you have to rebuild the top end about every 6 months. i had to rebuild the top end on mine like every 2 yrs.

The pros cant race a 250r no more. Sure the average joe can but the production class the pros cant. If the pros could race a 310,330 R it would leave the 4 strokes in the pits. When the 265Rs were runnign around agenst hybrids and other 4 strokes they were doing just fine. Now if the pros could ride ANYTHNG they wanted im sure you would see them all on big bore 250r because they are about the best as it gets. Excellent power, light, best handling, and of course top of the line suspension

but the topic is getting off track, i would still much rather own a nicly built aftermakret big bore 250r for 5 grand rather spending 6500 on a new 450... But hey some people wanna ride what they read about in dirt wheels

you dont have to do a top end rebuild every 6 months unless you ride ALL day EVERY day. You dont even have to replace the piston after every year. I know alot of guys that replace the rings after every season, hone the jug and use the same piston. Then after maybe 2-4 years replace the piston. But the new 4 strokes are NOT very relieable. Alot of those 450s blow up after a few years while you see 20 year old banshees and 250r still going strong. In that sense the 2 stroke is more relieable.

[mod440ex]

Originally posted by Honda86
IMO they should offer the 250r again, even if it had a CR250 motor and still had a square frame it would still sell like hotcakes! I understand they want to promote their new product as "the best ever" but the 250r should of still be able to race



the epa wont allow that, they are having to many strict regulations on 2 strokes. CARB is killing all 2 strokes. My dad works on small engines, and he said that by 2010 there will not be any 2 stroke motors left. That includes weed eaters, chainsaws, dirtbikes and atvs

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Honda86
The pros cant race a 250r no more. Sure the average joe can but the production class the pros cant. If the pros could race a 310,330 R it would leave the 4 strokes in the pits. When the 265Rs were runnign around agenst hybrids and other 4 strokes they were doing just fine. Now if the pros could ride ANYTHNG they wanted im sure you would see them all on big bore 250r because they are about the best as it gets. Excellent power, light, best handling, and of course top of the line suspension



once again, your speculation is not supported by fact. i have ASKED pro riders what they prefer and for todays racing the thumper gets the nod. your posts in other areas of two strokes vs 4 stokes leads me to believe your actual expierence on the track with either mode of power is limited. push away from the keyboard and hit some races, it will do wonders for your credibility and allow you to gain some first hand knowledge on the subject beyond what you read on your monitor.

what YOU would rather own has jack to do with what is being run and will continue to be run.

btw, how many races have you attended and participated in beyond C class in the past 20 years?

Pappy. Witch is a overall better quad...A full blown race 350r or a full blown race big bore 450?? I am curious to see what youll say...and please explain

[XXXRACER165]

If you have a big wallet, go to service Honda and buy a SRX250R
for $9,000. And add $250 for porting, $2,250 for Ohlins suspension, $760 for Lone Star +2" A-arms and $575 for a Lone Star +1" Swingarm. You'll have a sweet machine that puts out aroud 64 hp.

you dont even have to spend that much to have a real nice 250r. You can pcik up a nice used 350R that WILL rip apart any 4 stroke quad for under 7K easy.

I am curious to see what pappy has to say about a big bore 250r VS a big bore 450. the main thing that saves these 4 stroke from getting kill by the 2 strokes is the displacement rules. Put a 330r or 350r out there with the top 450 and see what happens. Put a YZ285 up agenst a YZ400 or 426 or 450, the pinger will eat it up.

If there was just a open class and all the big bore 250rs and bored out 2 strokes got out there the 4 strokes just wouldnt stand a chance. If they were to chanage the displacement rules just a lil bit the pingers would start taking over

[criminalpoet]

All I can say is that if someone wants a good built R now is the time to act. As stated earlier by someone their market value has dropped. I picked mine up for $5500! It only had 4 hours on it and had just came off an off the frame restoration. 1 Dir Racing had just built it for one of their clients that happened to be 50 years old. The guy dropped 15-17 grand into it, took it out for 4 hours one day, and decided it was too much bike for him. Because of the market value I scored it for $5500 bucks.

The only reason that I was considering building a 450 plain and simple is because of all the hype on them. Everybody has them so I figured maybe im missing out on something lol. Even though I have never even been almost beaten by one on my R. Ive only been out powered 1 time and that was by my two friends Raptor 700Rs with full exhaust. But that was only do to gearing, it was on a straight 10 mile dirt road and I took them easily through the gears. But after a minute they realed me in and passed. So actually I wasnt out powered but merely out geared. I was running a13 up front and a 38 in the rear. A 14 up front with the 38 in the rear should take care of the problem.

That same day I spanked them buy a good mile in the 50 mile desert race that we ran with each other lol. My bike handled better, had the better power, and just carved through the turns and blew through the long whoop sections better.

As far as reliability goes, I dont really worry about it too much. When 1 Dir Racing built this motor they used a Hi-Tech coatings system that ceramic coated,friction coated, and heated coated it. Last weekend I went on a 175 mile desert ride balls out and my radiator tempreture gauge never went over 198 degrees the whole time and it was a 102 degree day. Took it home, pulled the plastic, gas tank, and cleaned it up real good. Then I did a compression test on it and low and behold I didnt loose not 1 psi of compression. 175 mile ride balls out on a 102 degree day and didnt loose any compression at all. Thats about as reliable as it get! People say speed costs money and it does, but to add to that reliability costs money too lol Hell, it all costs money but its worth it.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Honda86
Pappy. Witch is a overall better quad...A full blown race 350r or a full blown race big bore 450?? I am curious to see what youll say...and please explain

better as in what?

a full blown hybrid is a neat toy these days but can have its *** handed to it by a lightly modded production quad with equal riders. to add, if the hybrids are so much better, why arent the ranks full of them at the nationals? exclude the production classes and they are rare. why? cost effectivness versus performance. one of my good pro am/a class riders switched to production machines and said he will never go back and for this particulair rider to give me that info shocked me...lol

do i prefer a hybrid? it really comes down to what i intend to do with the machine but with todays quads being competitive off the showroom floor, there is a slim market for them, hence the almost non existant numbers racing them. for a kick *** ride, sure id build a hybrid for fun, but not for mx or xc. desert and tt would be a different story but i dont have enough expierence racing or with rider involvement in that type of racing to give a decent opinion.

all i hear is hp #'s when in reality the average rider/racer will be so wore out from the added power that their performance suffers. there are advantages to running some of the bike engines due to the tranny gearing and such but those advantages are disappearing. when you are comparing a full blown hybrid to any stock derivative, its not a fair fight but seems to me that the production machine once modded has no trouble out pacing its high dollar counterpart. (its hard to compare today seeing the aftermarket chassis are a dime a dozen so the cost to build one got alot cheaper, big bonus to weekend warriors if they are so inclined to roll your own as it were)

suspension is equal these days if you leave out a no link set up, so that arguement is gone. bolt for bolt, your money ahead buying production. that doesnt mean the production quads are without issue, they have plenty, but we are discussing 3 different levels of atv (hybrid, stock 250r and stock 450r)

the 250r is or was the basis for for all performance atvs of the modern era, that in itself shouts volumes, but it doesnt end the story. how can racers be expected to keep a 250r based machine in race ready form when parts are drying up, builders are in short supply and the aftermarket and corperate support gone from driving the will to use such machines. for a play racer, there aint a thing wrong with running a 250r or hybrid, but for those serious about following a circuit or keeping on top of the game, production machines are where its at and they have no problems performing with the best 250r or hybrid in almost any genre' of racing.

and the entire 2 stroke is better thing is a mute point. they are history no matter how much we cry about it. personally i feel the 2 stroke is a ton easier to work on and less involved but that doesnt make it the optimum powerplant to propel a machine through the woods or over a jump. again, i dont think youve ever riden a prepped 450 and then a prepped big bore 250r so offering you insight is pissing in the wind and i dont like wet shoes. ill keep throwing a leg over machines, you keep an eye on your screen.

[criminalpoet]

Your a very good debater Pappy, I like your style man! Its nice to finally find a message board where the average age isnt 15 lol. Not saying theres anything wrong with 15 year olds or anything, but they do tend to sometimes speak as if they have 20 years of experience lol.

[Pappy]

there are 15 year olds on this board with 10 years racing expierence so i try and give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

the problem with most any forum is you get a loud mouth that spends most of their free time playing on the net instead of track side getting seat time or working with the riders and quads, so they form an opinion based off others. i listen beter then i talk so that gives me a leg up on most of the world..LMAO

as for your 250r...my advice would be to ride it and if you really wanted and could afford to build a thumper then go for it. i wouldnt ditch your r for one based on anything beyond what you find to suit your riding style. i couldnt think of much better to run through the desert on then a built 250r just for the smile on my face factor.

[clutch22]

Originally posted by Honda86
you dont have to do a top end rebuild every 6 months unless you ride ALL day EVERY day. You dont even have to replace the piston after every year. I know alot of guys that replace the rings after every season, hone the jug and use the same piston. Then after maybe 2-4 years replace the piston. But the new 4 strokes are NOT very relieable. Alot of those 450s blow up after a few years while you see 20 year old banshees and 250r still going strong. In that sense the 2 stroke is more relieable.

I agree... I'm changing out top ends on my 250r right now, not because it needed to be rebuilt, but because i bought a big bore for it... the old cylinder ran as good as ever, running even with the 450's if not, beating them ... and i had at least 200 hours on my old top end, with it still holding at race gas compression.

[criminalpoet]

Originally posted by Pappy
there are 15 year olds on this board with 10 years racing expierence so i try and give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

the problem with most any forum is you get a loud mouth that spends most of their free time playing on the net instead of track side getting seat time or working with the riders and quads, so they form an opinion based off others. i listen beter then i talk so that gives me a leg up on most of the world..LMAO

as for your 250r...my advice would be to ride it and if you really wanted and could afford to build a thumper then go for it. i wouldnt ditch your r for one based on anything beyond what you find to suit your riding style. i couldnt think of much better to run through the desert on then a built 250r just for the smile on my face factor.

LOL! Yea I usually have a big fat smile on my face when im carving a turn maxed out in 4th or 5th gear! My buddies on their Rapy 700s try not to smile very often when we're going at it though. Because if they smile they end up with more dirt in their teeth lmao! Well, once in a while they get lucky and make a pass, but it normally doesnt last for long. Sometimes I dont know what makes me happier, the actual race, or all of the crap talking before the race. Im equally good at both now!

[wilfredin]

good advnice on this thread

bottomline is for most types of racing you can pick up a full blown 250r all decked out for a very reasonable price, or pay more money to go slower on a less relieable 4 stroke

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Honda86
bottomline is for most types of racing you can pick up a full blown 250r all decked out for a very reasonable price, or pay more money to go slower on a less relieable 4 stroke

bottom line is that if star wars had an idiot, the force would run strong in you

hey pappy, if i wanted a good comeback id clean if off your wifes lips ;)

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Honda86
hey pappy, if i wanted a good comeback id clean if off your wifes lips ;)

i dont need a towel boy;)

[Scro]

Originally posted by Pappy
i dont need a towel boy;)

HAHA, I could see that ban coming!

[mod440ex]

sounds like someone cant face the honest fact the two bangers are out and the thumpers are in

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Scro
HAHA, I could see that ban coming!

when you sign up for a new name prior to acting badass its a sign you know your getting the boot. his new name and ip will be ****canned as well, no need for morons

[criminalpoet]

Come on guys this thread is good and informative lets not ruin it! BTW Pappy I spit a mouthful water on my damn keyboard when I read that come-back lmao! But still, lets keep it cool.

[ZeroLogic]

Lol good comeback Pappy, I'm glad that kid is gone he always started fights on here.:macho


Pretty much two strokes are a dying breed. Four strokes are better in more ways then two strokes. If you like to reach deep into you wallet for rebuilds then the four strokes are for you. Thats how I pretty much look at it.

[mod440ex]

he starts fight over things he has no idea about

[JOEX]

Originally posted by Honda86
bottomline is for most types of racing you can pick up a full blown 250r all decked out for a very reasonable price, or pay more money to go slower on a less relieable 4 stroke
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4 strokes are here to stay. Anyone who disagrees is just in denial.

[juanki]

for all forms of racing, the thumpers are the way to go, the 250r can be made to race very well, but at the end is a bit more tired.

as pappy said, the fun factor is better with a pinger....

i dont race, i just have fun... lots of it...:D , when i'm not with some broken bone...lol

[coryatver]

Originally posted by Pappy
better as in what?

a full blown hybrid is a neat toy these days but can have its *** handed to it by a lightly modded production quad with equal riders. to add, if the hybrids are so much better, why arent the ranks full of them at the nationals? exclude the production classes and they are rare. why? cost effectivness versus performance. one of my good pro am/a class riders switched to production machines and said he will never go back and for this particulair rider to give me that info shocked me...lol

do i prefer a hybrid? it really comes down to what i intend to do with the machine but with todays quads being competitive off the showroom floor, there is a slim market for them, hence the almost non existant numbers racing them. for a kick *** ride, sure id build a hybrid for fun, but not for mx or xc. desert and tt would be a different story but i dont have enough expierence racing or with rider involvement in that type of racing to give a decent opinion.

all i hear is hp #'s when in reality the average rider/racer will be so wore out from the added power that their performance suffers. there are advantages to running some of the bike engines due to the tranny gearing and such but those advantages are disappearing. when you are comparing a full blown hybrid to any stock derivative, its not a fair fight but seems to me that the production machine once modded has no trouble out pacing its high dollar counterpart. (its hard to compare today seeing the aftermarket chassis are a dime a dozen so the cost to build one got alot cheaper, big bonus to weekend warriors if they are so inclined to roll your own as it were)

suspension is equal these days if you leave out a no link set up, so that arguement is gone. bolt for bolt, your money ahead buying production. that doesnt mean the production quads are without issue, they have plenty, but we are discussing 3 different levels of atv (hybrid, stock 250r and stock 450r)

the 250r is or was the basis for for all performance atvs of the modern era, that in itself shouts volumes, but it doesnt end the story. how can racers be expected to keep a 250r based machine in race ready form when parts are drying up, builders are in short supply and the aftermarket and corperate support gone from driving the will to use such machines. for a play racer, there aint a thing wrong with running a 250r or hybrid, but for those serious about following a circuit or keeping on top of the game, production machines are where its at and they have no problems performing with the best 250r or hybrid in almost any genre' of racing.

and the entire 2 stroke is better thing is a mute point. they are history no matter how much we cry about it. personally i feel the 2 stroke is a ton easier to work on and less involved but that doesnt make it the optimum powerplant to propel a machine through the woods or over a jump. again, i dont think youve ever riden a prepped 450 and then a prepped big bore 250r so offering you insight is pissing in the wind and i dont like wet shoes. ill keep throwing a leg over machines, you keep an eye on your screen.

I mostly agree with what you are saying about this issue but you saying "stop smacking your gums" or "you just keep an eye on your screen" isn't something you should be saying considering you post more than anyone else on this site.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
I mostly agree with what you are saying about this issue but you saying "stop smacking your gums" or "you just keep an eye on your screen" isn't something you should be saying considering you post more than anyone else on this site.


i also do more race coverage then any one else on here as well, i reckon ill knock that off first, then i can close my business that pays the bills second, then i reckon i can just stop kicking it with a ton of folks i hang out with AT THE TRACK AND RIDE WITH on the weekends...i see your point. geez, thanks for waking me up, ive been wasting my time doing all this stuff!

imagine being involved in this sport at so many levels only to be told to not tell people to get out and ride and stop living on their computer and to actually get out and expierence them first hand ..lol

[Nick110]

Originally posted by Pappy
i also do more race coverage then any one else on here as well, i reckon ill knock that off first, then i can close my business that pays the bills second, then i reckon i can just stop kicking it with a ton of folks i hang out with AT THE TRACK AND RIDE WITH on the weekends...i see your point. geez, thanks for waking me up, ive been wasting my time doing all this stuff!

imagine being involved in this sport at so many levels only to be told to not tell people to get out and ride and stop living on their computer and to actually get out and expierence them first hand ..lol

ya u really need to get out and do something, stop helping the site, the sport, and ur business grow. Stop being a post whore. geez

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Nick110
ya u really need to get out and do something, stop helping the site, the sport, and ur business grow. Stop being a post whore. geez

i know, the 17,000 miles on my rig ths year has me down, the 30,000+ pictures on my cameras makes me sick and the fuel bill each month from keeping all these machines fueled is costing me an arm and a leg:o it would be so much cheaper to sit at home and pretend to do it all!

[coryatver]

Originally posted by Pappy
i also do more race coverage then any one else on here as well, i reckon ill knock that off first, then i can close my business that pays the bills second, then i reckon i can just stop kicking it with a ton of folks i hang out with AT THE TRACK AND RIDE WITH on the weekends...i see your point. geez, thanks for waking me up, ive been wasting my time doing all this stuff!

imagine being involved in this sport at so many levels only to be told to not tell people to get out and ride and stop living on their computer and to actually get out and expierence them first hand ..lol

most of the people in this sport are dedicated. It is a tough sport to be in you have to be dedicated to it but that is what is great about it the people in it live for this and you are telling guys to get off there computer and ride just because they have a different opinion and can't possibly be as educated about it as you. You even criticized a guy asking him how many races he attended and participated in beyond C class in the past 20 years? How many have you participated in?? as in raced in? You are dedicated to the sport and have a well formed opinion of it but that does not mean it has to be the correct one.

[Pappy]

the difference of opinion had ZERO to do with it, the fact he has ZERO expierence in the things he is posting is what got my eyre up. just like you blaming the atva/ama on killing the 250r.... lack of knowledge caused you to post an inaccuracy, thats fact not opinion. you can try your best to bust my chops but until you actually get something beyond my post count, dont waste my time.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
most of the people in this sport are dedicated. It is a tough sport to be in you have to be dedicated to it but that is what is great about it the people in it live for this and you are telling guys to get off there computer and ride just because they have a different opinion and can't possibly be as educated about it as you. You even criticized a guy asking him how many races he attended and participated in beyond C class in the past 20 years? How many have you participated in?? as in raced in? You are dedicated to the sport and have a well formed opinion of it but that does not mean it has to be the correct one.

ive raced several nationals and tons of locals in just the past 5 years, and at one point was running 2 a weekend. Up until i got sick i was looking forward to running all the nationals. i dont profess to be johnny racer, but i do profess to know when someone is selling this site a bill of **** and thats all honda86 did for the past 6 months. he s gone, get over it.

[coryatver]

I am not defending honda86 i don't even know who that is. and i am not saying you didn't race c class you said beyond c class. How did the ama/atva not kill the 250r? Until they passed the production rule which as you said was led about by pressure from the manufactures 250r based machines dominated. If they would not have passed that rule the 250r would have been around for a lot longer. If there was no rule change there would be no good reason for everyone to dump there 250rs that they have thousands of dollars invested and experience with. Only 2 pro racers Doug Gust and Tim Farr gave up the 250r quads and seriously took the step and raced the production class before all the pros were forced too by the production rule.

[Pappy]

The only way the manufactures were willing to come back into the sport of racing was for the production class quads to get the spotlight. This fact would have happened wether the atva /ama had instituded the production rules regardless of the 250r or any other model. The riders themselves had no choice but to switch if they wanted finacial support from the factories and their sponsors. The atav/ama merely constructed its rules to the current crop of machines in production AFTER the current models were available and pro teams had chosen them to compete on. The 250r was last produced in 1989 and isnt a viable option for any manufacture to promote or support in racing.


Blaming the atva or ama for killing a model that was dead is ludicris. If no model beyond the 400ex had been produced from 2003 to current you would still see hybrids on the track, but you also would see the sport dwindling down the drain as it was prior to the factory money being available. So you can either live and die by the 250r or you can enjoy the success that we all have today. Even prior to the rule changes you saw pro riders testing the Z400. 400EX and KFX400 as an option to replace the 250r, atleast I did because i was there.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
If there was no rule change there would be no good reason for everyone to dump there 250rs that they have thousands of dollars invested and experience with.

except maybe the 6 figure incomes a few of the pro's have been able to get for riding the current models....ya think:o

[Pappy]

and this is hard for me to argue because i love the 250r, but ill ask you all this.....


Being the current production rules only apply to Pro. Pro AM, Womens Pro Am and production based classes, if the 250r or hybrids are that much better then why arent they filling the gates in classes open to them?

[coryatver]

The pros will do what it takes to get an advantage and win. If they could race an aftermarket 250r chassis they would. Just as in snowmobile racing the snowmobiles that manufacture teams race are sometimes nothing like any production snowmobile they make. But the rules allow it so the manufactures push the rules to get an edge and be competitive. It still says yamaha or whatever on the side if it wins it sells the production sleds. Just look at bill ballance he found a loop hole in the gncc rules and is running a modified yfz frame I don't think yamaha minds.

[coryatver]

another example that comes to mind is the lites class in the gncc series can am is racing the outlander motor in a renegade chassis with outlander plastic. that wasn't isn't even close to a production at the time but the rules allowed it so they did it. I am sure it sold outlanders just as good as if they were running the stock ones.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
The pros will do what it takes to get an advantage and win. If they could race an aftermarket 250r chassis they would. Just as in snowmobile racing the snowmobiles that manufacture teams race are sometimes nothing like any production snowmobile they make. But the rules allow it so the manufactures push the rules to get an edge and be competitive. It still says yamaha or whatever on the side if it wins it sells the production sleds. Just look at bill ballance he found a loop hole in the gncc rules and is running a modified yfz frame I don't think yamaha minds.


first off, the pro's have made their choices based on what they feel is best for them. few if any will stand up and say thier best 250r holds a candle to what they ride now. nor will they walk away from the money being handed to them, nor should they. for them this sint a issue of what they may have liked 10 years ago, its about what puts them on the podium and pays the bills.

ballances frame is an issue of controversy and has been since the dealer show, and could provide us with a better yfz chassis on future models. i dont see how this supports the 450 vs 250r debate.

and i will ask you, how many different aftermarket 250rs have you spent time riding on and then comparing that to say 4 or 5 different production models that are being raced today? if the answer is none, then how can you claim anything beyond what your stating is a geuss based on what you think is better?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver

The pros will do what it takes to get an advantage and win.


another example that comes to mind is the lites class in the gncc series can am is racing the outlander motor in a renegade chassis with outlander plastic. that wasn't isn't even close to a production at the time but the rules allowed it so they did it. I am sure it sold outlanders just as good as if they were running the stock ones.




your kind of chasing your tail trying to make points

[250r(quadman19)]

^^^
i gotta agree with coryatver on this one. the manufacturers and race organizations are a big reason why hybrids and 250rs began to dissapear(even though 2 strokes were dying out) the manufacturers aren't fully commited to atv racing although Suzuki and KTM are making huge leaps for our sport. its sad that the magazines and manufacturers say that the yfz and 450r are mx bikes in stock form. Honda and Yamaha built them for what the majority of consumers use them for(trail riding). i mean come on..they dont even come with the required racing parts like nerf bars, killswitch, and they come with braking lights and a parking brake if these were "mx race ready" people wouldnt be dumping so much money into them although u can race it in stock form(which would be quite unpleasant lol) the companies wouldnt have to raise the standards on their bikes if the hybrids werent around except for competition amongst other companies. look at what they do when a new model comes out..new graphics kit!! different handle bars!! when you look at the dirtbikes they get complete makeovers! if you honestly compare a stock 450r motor to a crf450 motor there is no comparison. these motors are made for two completely different things hybrids and "production" bikes are two totally different machines because one is custom made for racing and one is mass produced for several different types of riding. it just sounds like a big marketing scam to me and there should have been more choices for people to pick what the REALLY wanted to ride instead of it being based on "production" classes and restriction on bikes

[coryatver]

Originally posted by Pappy
your kind of chasing your tail trying to make points

I think I made some pretty good points. Everyone has there own opinion I am just stating the reasoning behind mine.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by 250r(quadman19)
^^^
it just sounds like a big marketing scam to me and there should have been more choices for people to pick what the REALLY wanted to ride instead of it being based on "production" classes and restriction on bikes

so from a business perspective, you would support a machine that you as a company have little invovlement with, no income from sales or production, support race organizations and series/promoters when your financial gain is minimal to none no matter if the parts you MAY happen to have produced end up on the winning quad?

and i agree with production machines not being race ready out of the box, but as you can see with the new KTM it is evolving thanks to the changes made over the past 3 years. Cannondale tried but IMO was just a few years ahead of its time, yet I dont remember seeing everyone drop their current ride to support a company that tried to do exacty what your complaining about!

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
I think I made some pretty good points. Everyone has there own opinion I am just stating the reasoning behind mine.

im still waiting to hear what your answers are to my questions regarding your seat time on the quads i listed in my post...as in how many hybrids/aftermarket chassis quads etc.

[coryatver]

I have rode 250rs and all the 450s except I haven't had a chance to get a good ride on the suzuki and the ones that are not available for sale yet.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
I have rode 250rs and all the 450s except I haven't had a chance to get a good ride on the suzuki and the ones that are not available for sale yet.

how many of those 250r's were equipped with an aftermarket chassis? i would assume by your statement "250rs" you purposly left out hybrids and any aftermarket chassis ? i merely ask so that i know im talking with someone who has expierence on them and not someone who rides a stock 400ex yet knows whats the absolute best thing everyone should ride...lol

im not tyring to argue at all, but its aweful hard to get people to open their eyes and realize what the future holds if we all dont support the sport. this is exactly why we as atv enthusiest wont grow as large as our bike counterparts because the age differences and our inability to come together as a group. its far to easy to make a claim and influence others based on no real expierence on a subject beyond emotion. quadman claims the 2 strokes were dying out and then continues to state manufactures arent commited. id have to ask...commited to what? a small percentage of its intended market? while its nice to see racing growing, the vast numbers of atvs sold will never see a track and while the thought of building a full fledged off the showroom racer might make us all giddy with joy, it is not the future for everyone who likes to ride! and when faced with running the many series that make up the racing scene in this country, factory involvement is cructial to continued growth! Can AM is a huge factor in the growth of this sport, Polaris, Arctic cat, Yamaha and Kawasaki....but alas no honda.

im on record ripping apart the production quads so dont think i have a hard on for them, but like it or not they are the future and if living in the past makes you happy then ride on, but dont hate the folks actually doing the promoting, racing and growing of our sport. in 5 years ill be somewhere still involved in this sport, looking back on those that refused to grow with it. i saw that happen once, in the early 90's and i wont allow it to happen again as far as it concerns me.

[250r(quadman19)]

from a business perspective theres no way id want to support a machine that didnt help my business out financially . i was just saying i felt like honda and yamaha kind of pushed the hybrid out of the racing scene because as they get more involved with the sport they also want to sell more. without hybrids the market would shift more to production bikes. but the sport is moving on and theres not going to be a change to let hybrids back into the pro ranks. i just cant wait to see how well the KTM does because i think its gonna be a huge step ahead of all the other bikes and will push our sport farther and farther

[Pappy]

the future does look good....maybe:p i see it growing and growing but with the dman media gearing up almost weekly against atv's in general it brings back bad memories:ermm:

[250r(quadman19)]

yea we really dont need any bad rep because the sport is growing so big!

[coryatver]

I haven't rode many 250r aftermarket chassis's/hybreds. I took a yz426 hybred for a lap once. I am not a pro racer with a lot of experiences with them which none of us are. Just because someone had one sitting in there garage for a month doesn't make them an expert on it. I think that the atv racing history speaks for itself. And yes I do ride and race a 416 with a good xc setup. I am a C class racer and it works well for me.

[csr250r]

I love both of em, im gona get a 450 and keep both as long as i can afford it.

its mostly preference, my 89 still spanks some pretty modded 450s on the track, rider ability and how well they know there machine is what it comes down to.

[Pappy]

i bet that lap was eye opening now wasnt it:p try having a pro level gncc quad to play with...several of them:devil: and i figured you would be well past c class by now, youve been racing since what 2003?

[coryatver]

Originally posted by Pappy
i bet that lap was eye opening now wasnt it:p try having a pro level gncc quad to play with...several of them:devil: and i figured you would be well past c class by now, youve been racing since what 2003?

Yes I started racing in 2003 my first race was the john penton mud fest now that there was an eye opener. I actually beat brandon sommers that summer I think it was his first race ever:o College has taken most of my time and dedication and money that being competitive racing requires. At least thats my excuse. Oh and you have taken some good shots of me racing like the one in last years wisp coverage of me going through the fence:huh

[Pappy]

penn state correct?

i was at the 03 penton, the 02 dust bowl as well, again 04 and 05(i think, thats when i was getting over being sick) and 06 and 07.

lol, alot of people went through alot of fences. i got lucky and raced wisp on a good day...although testing the rekluse and having been hijacked into running a twist throttle wasnt the best idea:ermm:

would you like to take your pick of any 250r and go after Brandon now:devil:

[mineralgrey01gt]

ill put in my $0.02

Ive rode a few yfz's and a 450r. I like the power the 4 stroke has but I have never in my life rode a 250r. Ive heard nothing but good things about them so I decided to build one. I guess im not much help but obviously yall see which one I chose.

[ShiftFMX]

I have had both. I LOVED my 250r, but the only reason I sold it was because of parts availability. The 450 has..."Smoother Power" where the 250r came on like a bat out of hell.

My Old 330r (now belongs to trailwart)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/ShiftFMX/DSC01377.jpg

Most Recent pic of my 450...

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/ShiftFMX/DSC00201.jpg

My 450 is actually Faster in a drag race than my 330 was, here a pic at a race...

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/ShiftFMX/Picture_127.jpg

[XXXRACER165]

ShiftFMX Got any more pics of that 330R? That bike is sick!:eek2:

[whiteboycustom]

i didnt read everything but im sure its already been said, i own a 05 450r and i have a 01 cr250 bike and i will say this the maintnace and up keep on the bike is greater then the 450r,to me there is alot more fine tuning that goes into a 2 stroke between the carb and fuel mixture, and i think a 2 stroke should be for more of a experianced rider due to the powerband and how the power is put to the ground, all in all i would just own both and have best of both worlds, they are both reliable if u do the upkeep and maintance on them

[DEAL]

Originally posted by 250r(quadman19)
from a business perspective theres no way id want to support a machine that didnt help my business out financially . i was just saying i felt like honda and yamaha kind of pushed the hybrid out of the racing scene because as they get more involved with the sport they also want to sell more. without hybrids the market would shift more to production bikes. but the sport is moving on and theres not going to be a change to let hybrids back into the pro ranks. i just cant wait to see how well the KTM does because i think its gonna be a huge step ahead of all the other bikes and will push our sport farther and farther

Pushing the hybrid out of the picture can kind of be described as "cutting off a finger to save the hand".
Manufacturers can't support a quad that they don't build.. and if they wanted the sport to grow the way dirtbike racing has .. production was the way to go .. even if they only thing stock on the quad is the frame.

[criminalpoet]

All I can say is that ive decided to stick with the R! I got a chance to ride a pretty decked out YFZ450 this last weekend and I was impressed with several aspects of it. However smooth power just isnt exactly what im looking for. I like rush of the more explosive power that my R brings to the table.
From what I gathered on that 450, is that everything is a little more predictable. To where on my R you have to be mentally ahead of the bike in order to execute your next move. I guess I can see why a lot of people would choose the 450s, especially more inexperienced riders. But after riding 2 strokes for 18 years my R is just a better fit for me. I feel that both can be made to put out a good bit of power, and can also be made to handle extremely well. To the point that it would all fall down to the pilot of each machine.
I dont feel that the new 4 strokes are better, more powerful, or better handling than the Rs of old. But as with everything in life, change is inevitable. I dont like it, because I dont like being forced into change, but whatever. It is what it is I guess. Between my 2 strokes and Pit Bulls I will be dogless and bikeless in 10 years because both of them will be banned. It really sucks how this world for the most part is ran by worms that dont know dick about the things they ban or the laws they pass.
But I guess thats what happens when people get to preoccupied with their own little personal agendas and dont vote. Or dont educate, or become aware of the new laws that are being preposed. Nobody stands up for their beliefs anymore. This type of crap that is going on today would have never flown in the 60's. Because in the 60's people actually stood together and fought for what they believed in. Until a desired result was achieved.

[chris46250r]

I'll have to give that an AMEN!!!