ds450 or ktm 525xc?

[is4baja]

im sort of confused right now:ermm: because im looking for a new quad and i think im stuck between the can am and the ktm.
the ds sounds great, the ktm looks great but not a whole lot of info has been released on it or videos. Im more of a baja racer, most of my racing is down baja. So id like to hear your thoughts on these two quads overall.

[ThePhantomRider]

Good question, I am a huge DS 450 fan but really like the KTM as well. Now though I am not really a Polaris fan, looks like their Outlaw 525 straight axle may be a good choice too, likely at a lower cost than KTM. Sounds too like they got their act together with better seating, uniform bolts and Fox Shocks that can be upgraded from the 450 with ease.

I'd say I'd still go DS 450, but probably have the 525 Outlaw a close second with the KTM third with likely a steeper price tag, but IMO better looks than the other 2 and lots of race ready goodies.

One thing to keep in mind though is that with the 525 you don't necessarily get a more bulletproof motor like a DS or Raptor 700, it's not the classic thumper but a higher displacement 450.

TPR

[honda300EXtreme]

yea thats a tuff question with out any of these bikes actually proving there selves yet..

i think the ds 450 and the ktm are both gonna be great


i think if your budget allows get the ktm, but if not get the ds450

either way you wont be dissapointed

[bwamos]

IMHO in baha racing wouldn't you want the steel frame. If for nothing else easy field weldable repairs. Baja race's aren't known to be easy on quads or riders.. lol.

I love the DS450. But, I wouldn't think it would be ideal for the Baja.

[is4baja]

that was my major concern..the ds overall sounds awesome but im not sure i like the new frame idea..but the review and tests sounds like its the ultimate quad..on the other hand ktm has a good rep. on their two wheelers and the ohlin shocks wouldnt hurt..

[bossman525]

phantom rider, the 525 is not bulletproof?? not to be disrespectful, but you need to read up on ktm motors

[bwamos]

Originally posted by is4baja
that was my major concern..the ds overall sounds awesome but im not sure i like the new frame idea..but the review and tests sounds like its the ultimate quad..on the other hand ktm has a good rep. on their two wheelers and the ohlin shocks wouldnt hurt..

Don't get me wrong. I beleive the DS frame will be rock solid. But, the Baja will kill ANY frame. Steel, Chromoly, or aluminum. The DS450 uses extruded aluminum sections. You're not gonna easily weld up any damage. If you've ever noticed, extruded aluminum doesn't bend well. Once it flexes beyond its limitations if snaps/shatters (granted that would be one hell of a hit).

I just figured in any baja series, if you're pushing the envelope, you're gonna likley damage the frame more often than not. Of course I've never raced a Baja (I live in Missouri). I'm basing that solely off of reports I've read.

Where a steel frame could mean a delay w/ a quick repair. The extruded aluminum frame could mean a DNF with the same damge.

All that being said, as I will be looking ag getting a Duner/Play MX machine I'd be looking at the DS450. ;) But, I couldn't reccomend it for Baja.

[ThePhantomRider]

Originally posted by bossman525
phantom rider, the 525 is not bulletproof?? not to be disrespectful, but you need to read up on ktm motors

You read that correct and if you know anything about motors you will know that the 525, while very reliable, is not bulletproof in the classic thumper sense. Most modern performance sport motors aren't. In comparison with the DS 650 you can't tell me that the 525 will be as durable and require less maintainence.

I just want people to realize that if they are getting the 525 they will not be getting the classic DS, V-Force, even Raptor (When taken care of) thumper reliability. This is a big bore 450, will require 450 like maintainence and will have only a slightly longer top end life.

In the end, I am in no way faulting the 525, if the DS had not come out, any atv with the 525 was on my docket outside of the IRS Outlaw.

Take it for what it's worth, I am a big Can-Am, KTM and Honda fan, all of which I believe offer the best motor packages across the board.

TPR

[OutlawBill]

Good thing I am happy with my Outlaw 525 and DS650. I would have a hard time picking one now DS450, KTM 525, and Outlaw 525. It would be a tough pick. I just hope that Can-Am does not come out with a new DS650 built like the DS450

[bwamos]

Originally posted by OutlawBill
I just hope that Can-Am does not come out with a new DS650 built like the DS450

Why, because you'd want to buy one? ;)

[OutlawBill]

Originally posted by bwamos
Why, because you'd want to buy one? ;)

a sub 400 LBS DS650/700 with EFI YES:D

[mikebell72]

isnt that the raptor? i am wanting to buy the same thing but do not know which one to buy i want light weight but big power! i had a 03 predator and it handled like **** it felt like it weighed 600lbs, if i just like to drag race and ride trails what bike would you buy?

[OutlawBill]

Originally posted by mikebell72
isnt that the raptor? i am wanting to buy the same thing but do not know which one to buy i want light weight but big power! i had a 03 predator and it handled like **** it felt like it weighed 600lbs, if i just like to drag race and ride trails what bike would you buy? KTM 525, it is light in weight and has great shocks. I would saw my Outlaw 525 IRS is just as powerful as my DS730 and the KTM is 40lbs lighter than my Outlaw.

[ThePhantomRider]

Here's the thing, there are alot of quads you can ride in the woods and drag race. Any 450 will fit the bill as will the Raptor and the new Outlaw 525's and KTM's.

If you already have a sour taste with Polaris, then maybe KTM or Can-Am.

There is a chink in the KTM armor already though, if you look in the KTM 525 section you'll see that someone claims to have hit a tree at 10-15 mph and it broke the front suspension and bent the front triangle and Walsh is fixing it.

Seems that to keep weight down they may have made the front out of Chrome moly that was a bit too thin. Shame too because I am a huge fan of the new KTM's.

Now from what I know of the DS through testing and racing is that they have hit some things similarly at much higher speeds and had no frame damage whatsoever. Not to say you couldn't do damage, but I think people will be shocked once this get's into the public hands as to just how durable the new aluminum frame actually is.

Be patient, read everything you can and then decide, just don't base your entire decision on what Dirt Wheels says because they have mastered the art of speaking out of both sides of their mouth just to boost Yamaha.

TPR

[mikebell72]

outlawbill you ride a polaris and i saw you have the 540 kit that is awsome power if it matches your ds730 i love big end power and will end up putting a big bore kit in whatever i get, why would you go ktm over the outlaw 525straghtaxle? do these are thes bikes built about the same? i like the colors and polished wheels on the outlaw but have ridden buddys raptor and 450r and they handle so much better than my 03 predator.

thanks guys

[OzLinc]

"There is a chink in the KTM armor already though, if you look in the KTM 525 section you'll see that someone claims to have hit a tree at 10-15 mph and it broke the front suspension and bent the front triangle and Walsh is fixing it."

There was one DS450 here in Oz.......not any more; cased a jump and the whole frame collapsed in on itself.........it's now dissapeared in to the black hole that is corporate cover-ups and marketing hype.

Yeah he cased a jump but it should have taken that.

Phantom......."insert excuse here"

[ThePhantomRider]

Well that's a first for me, but nothing is impossible. I also do question the facts on the accident with the KTM, and would be very interested in seeing the actual damage on the DS as well as the actual information on the cause.

Now through all the MX, woods and desert testing I am privy to, I have not heard of any frame failures so I have a hard time to believe in the catastrophic frame failuer you had described.

TPR

[OzLinc]

Both the Can-Am & KTM are either pre-production or first run......

Quality & performance are an unknown for at least 6 months on both models........anyone that says otherwise is uninformed or biased.

Linc

[JGlaze]

One thing that I have observed is that the KTM seems to be alot easier to work on like getting to the engine. The DS motor is really stuck in there with those bars that go over the sides of it. These may be easy to remove though so it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'd say that I'd go with the KTM if I were to get a new Quad.

[bwamos]

For standard work, the cross members can just stay there. But if oyu need to pull the cylinder or the motor, etc.. then you can unbolt the cross members for access. Those use standard removable bolts, not the permenant tension bolts that hold together the rest of the frame.

[ThePhantomRider]

Linc is 100% right on his statement. The difference here is that the 1st 6 months with Can-Am have been racing anywhere they can to beat on the quad to see what breaks. KTM got to market quicker, but there may be a few more issues that come up the customers will find out for themselves....

I think between the 2 manufacturers, they have upped the game for the Japaneese for sure....all good things.

And the side rails on the frame are removable with 4 bolts...not a big issure for the added strength they provide.


TPR

[Icanam]

For the doubters...
http://walshrc.com/KTM450.htm

I hate this. I really thought that was going to be the quad to own, but it appears they got some things a bit wrong. As you look at the frame damage photos, you notice something that lets you believe you could have predicted the failure. The side-to-side centerline distance of the frame tubes is about 2.5 inches, judging by the pics. All the other (six) sport quads I have owned had these tubes about 5 inches apart. KTM apparently made better front end geometry by putting the frame rails so close together, allowing longer a-arms for less scrub. If my guess on the distance (2.5 inches c-to-c is right), they halved the distance. But by doing so, the side-to-side bending strength of that part of the structure forward of just behind the rear a-arm pivot point dropped to about 1/8 of what is would have been at 5 inches c-to-c. Then, the forces also further concentrated because there is a gusset between the tubes. If that gusset was not there, the opposite side tube would have survived without cracking. And, apparently the gauge of the tubing is much too thin. This means the quad will get heavier, as KTM now scrambles to re-engineer the design. And the front end geometry will have to change, as the a-arms will shorten when they get the frame rails widened apart a bit.
This year, KTM is off my list. I will keep watching you guys beat the DS with much interest.

[ThePhantomRider]

Well, I wouldn't really point at that as the failure. There are several quads that have used a very narrow lower rail section with little problem because they should be able to engineer the section to transmit the energy of a hit past that point. You also hope that the arms and like in the picture, the heim joint take the brunt of the energy. You see this problem when people have chrome moly a-arms on mild steel frames, the arms transmit more energy to the frame, but the mild steel frame being less ridgid gives a bit more and actually not bend quite so easy...sounds wierd but the only real way to alleviate this (And I'd bet a dollar it's already been addressed on the KTM production line) is to engineer how the forces transmit through the entire chassis.

The problem with gussetts is that you take one weak point and make it stronger, you'll eventually expose a weak point elsewhere. As someone posted before...."The Domino Effect"

TPR

[realbadlarry]

Some things to think about

I know the quad and I know the hit. It was high speed, dead on with the tree.

http://www.floridaquadriders.com/forum/sho...p?t=1220&page=3

[ThePhantomRider]

If that is true and the hit was at a higher rate of speed it would make alot more sense, and make me feel better about all the time that was put into the KTM.


TPR

[RosquistRacer39]

As far as my opinion I would go with a ktm or polaris. So far the outlook on the Can Am isn't so good in the motor department. Other than the first Worcs race that Frederick took to the win, every race since then it has failed to finish. And if you watched the video on bull hollow they said that they were using stock motors as to test the durability and josh didn't finish. Even Sage Baker did not finish the last race on his can am. I would wait on it because the motor design is not proven bulletproof by any means yet. Not to mention I am not sold on bolting a frame together, let alone a aluminum frame. I would wait to see it put through its paces and find the weak points. Right now only people who are paid to say its great are speaking. And as you can tell TPR likes it a lot. Not to say can-am won't address the problems but as far as motors go the ktm is a good choice. And what good is a bike that just sits in the driveway broke down.

[ThePhantomRider]

On the surface, your concerns are valid, but let me pose a couple things before you pass judgement on the DS.

In the motor department, the head is a proven unit...much like the 650, they used alot of existing components to build the motor. The fact that they have had some DNF's has everything to do about R&D. Like I mentioned before, one had to do with where a wire was routed...it chafed the sheathing and killed the motor and until they stripped the bike down and found the issue, it would not start. That issue has been rectified and addressed in production.

The issue with Sage was much simpler and completely course caused...according to him he was running the 2nd lap without goggles because they were so crusted with mud he couldn't see and he smashed the underside of the bike into somthing solid. On the 3rd lap, the sprocket gave out and that was the end of his day.

Looking at Josh, his DNF at Pismo was another wiring issue that caused the quad to run hot because I believe the fan could not kick on and in the sand, under race conditions, he just pushed it to the limit. In the last race, they tried to press another lap to get him to the front, and the bike overheated due to the excessive mud build up on the radiator....that was a tactical gamble that did not pay off. That was simply racing. Everyone else was pitting after 2 laps to power wash the radiator, and they took a chance to press for 3.

As for the frame, I have not heard of any type of failure in that department. I have heard that during testing they had one hit somthing so hard it damaged the a-arms similar to what was seen on the KTM and as they do after a certian number of hours testing as well as any accidents during testing, they would take the quad back, strip it down and place it on a jig to verify any damage to the structure. As I understand, there was no movement in the frame, and there has never been any lock bolts that have worked themselves loose...it would be extremely difficuly to do that, even in a crash because of the massive amount of force and pressure it takes to create this mechanical bond, for me, you or some rider that is great at breaking stuff to accomplish.

Can someone damage the frame....absolutely, but it will be, IMO, much more difficult to do than a standard frame, and if there is damage to one part of the structure, it is wholly possible to send it in and have that portion removed and replaced without having to purchase a whole new frame.

Do I like the DS? Yes. Will I buy one? Absolutely. Do I work for Can-Am? Nope, and that's verifiable....but I do know people involved with these quads. Does Can-Am want this out to market? Sure, but this is a huge thing for them, alot at stake, and they would rather have these issues occur in pre-sale, than post sale, because as you stated, what good is a quad that is stuck in the driveway. It can be a big deal to have to make major changes to the production line if there are issues, not to mention having to fix recalled units, so it's best to get out any gremlins before the green light.

Now if there was no DS 450 out there waiting to hit the market, I would easily chose the KTM 525. Love the brand, love the motor, and the look and it's got great features.

If anything, I hope these 2 companies get under the skin of the big 4...(Kawi has a ton of goodies already, they just need refinement) But like the MX world, be ready to have all the 450's with better frames and standard equipment in the near future...in that, we all win!

TPR