highest compression piston made?

[honda4life72]

who makes the highest compression piston to go in a stock bore 450?

[Rulz]

Are you talking off the shelf pistons or whatever you can get your hands on piston? Off the shelf is 13.5:1 but there are 14:1 pistons from Dasa, Venom and I would assume Sparks as well. But, you can go to JE and probably CP and they will build you whatever compression you want, you just have to order a minimum number of them.

[buck naked-r]

chad/DRG and sparks make or made a 15.1

sparks 15.1 is for the 06/07 only [i think]

[Sjorge450R]

ive seen the 14:1 and then you can deck the head and the crf gasket.

[pro-rider46]

i think czrider has a 16:1 that chad made. i wonder if he has to run alcohol in it

[chad502ex]

In case anyone is wondering, my pistons are being made as final production for the 04/05 450r's. The prototype testing is complete and the testing of them helped finalize my design.

15:1 with the feature to head/cylinder machine up to 17:1 with deep valve reliefs to accommodate any production cam available, if desired....



:macho

[czrider263]

Originally posted by pro-rider46
i think czrider has a 16:1 that chad made. i wonder if he has to run alcohol in it


nope just race gas... AND THAT THING HULLS!!... thanks chad:macho

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by czrider263
nope just race gas... AND THAT THING HULLS!!... thanks chad:macho

your welcome.

more to come to you for sure...

[honda4life72]

Originally posted by chad502ex
In case anyone is wondering, my pistons are being made as final production for the 04/05 450r's. The prototype testing is complete and the testing of them helped finalize my design.

15:1 with the feature to head/cylinder machine up to 17:1 with deep valve reliefs to accommodate any production cam available, if desired....



:macho can i just put that piston in along with a cam ? and valves and thats it?

[czrider263]

Originally posted by honda4life72
can i just put that piston in along with a cam ? and valves and thats it?

can you hold onto it when its done?

[honda4life72]

i think i should be able to lol , if not i'll get use to it , this is goin in a tt bike

[buck naked-r]

Originally posted by honda4life72
i think i should be able to lol , if not i'll get use to it , this is goin in a tt bike

is TT racing limited or is it run what u brung?

i know MX is limited to 450cc,but what about TT?

[honda4life72]

there is difrent classes from limited to open , in open i've seen 523 before

[chad502ex]

nothing is required for the new piston other than installation, race fuel, and a death grip,.. hehe..

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
nothing is required for the new piston other than installation, race fuel, and a death grip,.. hehe..


So uh when will these be available for sale? How much, I have a couple motors lined up that need some go fast goodies:devil:

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
So uh when will these be available for sale? How much, I have a couple motors lined up that need some go fast goodies:devil:

hopefully real real soon,... i'll have information pictures cost availability soon... finally they have arrived.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
hopefully real real soon,... i'll have information pictures cost availability soon... finally they have arrived.

Good, please keep me updated, I am wanting at least one at this point.

[honda4life72]

yes please keep me updated ,

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
nothing is required for the new piston other than installation, race fuel, and a death grip,.. hehe..


So I got thinking, are the OEM Honda internals up to the task of handling 15:1? Will the rod hold up? What would you recommend for replacement intervals on a stock rod? Thanks chad.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
So I got thinking, are the OEM Honda internals up to the task of handling 15:1? Will the rod hold up? What would you recommend for replacement intervals on a stock rod? Thanks chad.

that is not a concern of mine at all....

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
that is not a concern of mine at all....


Meaning they are good enough to handle it, or you just dont use stock honda internals?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Meaning they are good enough to handle it, or you just dont use stock honda internals?

yes, I have that compression, my piston, running fine on stock rods...

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
yes, I have that compression, my piston, running fine on stock rods...


Thats great to here, I think I found a new piston for our 04 MX build up.... I plan on doing an entire write up on it much like the CZrider build and the xsr builds...

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Thats great to here, I think I found a new piston for our 04 MX build up.... I plan on doing an entire write up on it much like the CZrider build and the xsr builds...

its best if you get ADMIN approval prior just so they are aware....

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
its best if you get ADMIN approval prior just so they are aware....

Hmm didn't think of that, but will do. I guess I didn't think it would be a problem!?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Hmm didn't think of that, but will do. I guess I didn't think it would be a problem!?

its not i dont think if you let them know... just mention it to them, its kewl!

[400exrider99]

what octane would someone run with a 17:1 comp.

[pro-rider46]

probably the highest stuff you can buy, you can run alcohol with a little tweaking of the carb

[maddmatt02]

I always hear running alcohol but where would you get the stuff? I know it cant just be some 151 out of the old liquer cabinet. :D

never seen anything for sale at a quad shop that says alcohol?

[pro-rider46]

i am sure where you can get it but it wont be at a quad shop but maybe a race car shop

thats what late models ,nascar, monster trucks etc. all run for gas

[400exrider707]

Chadwick, please enlighten the young fellers... I really cant put this into words right now....:scary:

[chad502ex]

octane requirement is a function of running compression and ignition timing, not static compression when the engine is stopped.

Camshaft selection determines dynamic compression.

Dynamic compression and ignition timing determines octane requirements.

My piston at 15:1 will require race fuel.

alcohol is extremely difficult to tune in- I dont use it....

Compression ratios beyond 17:1 is considered 'ultra'.

Ultra compression is getting unpredictable for fuel and getting closer to deisel compression ratios.

This is why i dont build beyond 17:1 static compression..

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
octane requirement is a function of running compression and ignition timing, not static compression when the engine is stopped.

Camshaft selection determines dynamic compression.

Dynamic compression and ignition timing determines octane requirements.

My piston at 15:1 will require race fuel.

alcohol is extremely difficult to tune in- I dont use it....

Compression ratios beyond 17:1 is considered 'ultra'.

Ultra compression is getting unpredictable for fuel and getting closer to deisel compression ratios.

This is why i dont build beyond 17:1 static compression..


Do you have any way of calcuating dynamic compression factors using your fancy shmancy camshaft software? That would be killer.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Do you have any way of calcuating dynamic compression factors using your fancy shmancy camshaft software? That would be killer.

yes i can calculate dynamic compression when I need to, but it isn't the easiest thing,...

dynamic compression is based on the position where the intake valve closes

there are some online calculators too.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
yes i can calculate dynamic compression when I need to, but it isn't the easiest thing,...

dynamic compression is based on the position where the intake valve closes

there are some online calculators too.


Thats why I was wondering if the software would do it. Basing on intake valve closing, you would think that having all of the cam profile information, that it wouldn't be much harder to get a program to do that... hmmm.....

[honda4life72]

now wait how do u ge tthe 17:1 out of it? deck the head and a new gasket? also this is a 05

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by honda4life72
now wait how do u ge tthe 17:1 out of it? deck the head and a new gasket? also this is a 05

with my piston at 15:1 and decking the head, 17:1 is easily obtainable on the 05 using and camshaft you want....

[honda4life72]

ok i'm new to the motor building sence lol, wat is decking the head? i am building a flat track bike for next year and am tryin to get the parts together. wat can i do to the motor to make 50+ hp with out boreing or stroking it , and without geting a new crank or anythign , just carb , head and piston work

[pro-rider46]

Originally posted by chad502ex
octane requirement is a function of running compression and ignition timing, not static compression when the engine is stopped.

Camshaft selection determines dynamic compression.

Dynamic compression and ignition timing determines octane requirements.

My piston at 15:1 will require race fuel.

alcohol is extremely difficult to tune in- I dont use it....

Compression ratios beyond 17:1 is considered 'ultra'.

Ultra compression is getting unpredictable for fuel and getting closer to deisel compression ratios.

This is why i dont build beyond 17:1 static compression..

at least i tried, how come latemodels with 15:1 pistons run on alcohol if its hard to use

i am not arguing with you, im just curious.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by honda4life72
ok i'm new to the motor building sence lol, wat is decking the head? i am building a flat track bike for next year and am tryin to get the parts together. wat can i do to the motor to make 50+ hp with out boreing or stroking it , and without geting a new crank or anythign , just carb , head and piston work


Yes 60hp is attainable on stock bore/stock stroke.

decking the head is basically shaving the head down to sit lowe and closer to the piston. Helps with flame travel across the top of the piston, and also raises compression.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by pro-rider46
at least i tried, how come latemodels with 15:1 pistons run on alcohol if its hard to use

i am not arguing with you, im just curious.


I wouldn't think latemodels would be running that kind of compression.. but I dont really know. alcohol is a completely different animal, its not just a different octane, its completely different, and the motor must be built to run on alcohol, try researching, Im not all that familiar with it myself, but I know that its not just another fuel with a different octane. Actually PM GPracer2500, he will have no problem answering this question.

[pro-rider46]

well the motors are specially made with 15:1 nascar pistom and cost over 40,000 dollars. my friends dad use to race them.:D

[buck naked-r]

alcohol is also a power adder


ever lined up next to a alcohol banshee

[rustee]

hello chad 502ex
is this a 2 ring piston or a 3 ring. i am using a baldwin 14.1 and baldwin tt cam . but i am not very happy with that piston it smokes quite a bit and is pretty noisey. will this work with my cam? we are running a je 13.1 3 ring piston now no smoking issues. and is this for sale yet please let me know thanks rustee....

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by rustee
hello chad 502ex
is this a 2 ring piston or a 3 ring. i am using a baldwin 14.1 and baldwin tt cam . but i am not very happy with that piston it smokes quite a bit and is pretty noisey. will this work with my cam? we are running a je 13.1 3 ring piston now no smoking issues. and is this for sale yet please let me know thanks rustee....

do you have specs for your cam?

I'm expecting the shipment maybe today or tomorrow..

as soon as I get them in I'll post pictures...

actually, I've got 3 left on the fist batch....


the piston features are
2 ring 15:1
3d undercrowning to make the piston light ((weight to be measured tonight as assembly))
taller compression height for tighter squish
tuliped valve cutouts for added compression
extra deep valve reliefs to accommodate any cam profile
accululator grooves
anti-detonation grooves
Nitrided ring
dual force wrist oilers

[rustee]

chad 502ex
thanks for the reply i do not have the specs for the cam and i dont think mark is going to give it up to me. it is his tt cam. i dont think it is too extrem super lift or any thing but i guess it should be clayed. it does not require an adjustable cam gear if that helps. his piston is a 2 ring and i noticed that when i tore it down last week the top of the piston was soaked with oil. re ringed it same result. i know it is not the head did seals as well. put last years je back in (3ring) everything ok no smoke. we run the edt national sereis had to put something in there. so now i have to get ready for the next national 2 weeks.are you haveing good results with that piston? please let me know! thanks chad!! rustee..........

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by rustee
chad 502ex
thanks for the reply i do not have the specs for the cam and i dont think mark is going to give it up to me. it is his tt cam. i dont think it is too extrem super lift or any thing but i guess it should be clayed. it does not require an adjustable cam gear if that helps. his piston is a 2 ring and i noticed that when i tore it down last week the top of the piston was soaked with oil. re ringed it same result. i know it is not the head did seals as well. put last years je back in (3ring) everything ok no smoke. we run the edt national sereis had to put something in there. so now i have to get ready for the next national 2 weeks.are you haveing good results with that piston? please let me know! thanks chad!! rustee..........

well, me having used baldwin 14:1 pistons before,... chances are that I agree with you that the Baldwin TT cam can't be that all that big on duration, or more accurately, lift during overlap. It's the lift during overlap that causes valve-to-piston contact when the piston valve reliefs aren't deep enough to accommodate hugh lift cams... not a problem with my piston.... without knowing the specs of the baldwin cam, i can not accurately determine your P-V clearances, but considering baldwins valve cutout depth, i'd say it my piston should be ok considering my piston can accommodate a WEB 208 with head decked 0.040" no problem....

as far as secret camshaft specs- huh? that should never exist.... when someone purchases a camshaft and installs it into the engine, the specs should be available to the consumer to match other components for pertinent engine info like P-V clearances, port timing, in/ex tuning, ect... sounds like the Baldwin cam is considered a "drop-in" though...

oil on top is more than likely related to the lateral gas ports pulling oil up. You should check the Baldwin piston lateral gas port for any signs of burn oil being pulled from under and behind the ring through the port to the top of the piston. I'd bet you'd see evidence of burned oil around a gas port. Sometimes when ppl install pistons with gas ports there could be small debris on the ring landing that prevents full seat... I'm sure you've verified this, but this could be another reason for smoking.

My first batch prototypes was tested to be real good performer and real reliable for the selected builds. all pistons on the first batch is still kicking butt in running race engines. The second batch was made even better than the prototype batch. IMHO these pistons will be the best pistons available...

BTW: i did forget to mention that my piston is lateral gas ported too!!!:macho

to the reply that 60HP is acheiveable, I think you can get it higher. My friends 450 has 75 or 80 some HP. 16k into the motor though complete pro race bike

[honda4life72]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
to the reply that 60HP is acheiveable, I think you can get it higher. My friends 450 has 75 or 80 some HP. 16k into the motor though complete pro race bike lol good joke ,

[djguestone]

Venom!

[chad502ex]

I sell antivenom!

:devil:

neutralizing venom

:D :macho

[sandmanblue]

And then there's the fact that the best power producing motors in the 450 class are running no more than 14.5:1 compression due to reduced combustion chamber efficiency when you stick the piston too far into the head at higher compressions - but I bet that wasn't brought up here....


Where are the dyno runs showing that over 14.5:1 is a good idea? I challenge anyone here to post them. Proof is in the pudding. Where's the pudding?????

I think everyone that is looking at this "more is better" should do themselves a favor and ask some pro builders like DASA, Sparks, Duncan, Baldwin and a ton of others why they don't go beyond 14.5:1


I also believe there was a guy named Blackie that frequented ******* and a couple other sites that played with a 16+:1 trx motor. He then replaced that setup with a lower compression 14:1 and a milder cam and MADE MORE POWER!

Go figure........

But, that's just my opinion. You all should get second and third opinions before spending any money - that's for sure.....

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
And then there's the fact that the best power producing motors in the 450 class are running no more than 14.5:1 compression due to reduced combustion chamber efficiency when you stick the piston too far into the head at higher compressions - but I bet that wasn't brought up here....


Where are the dyno runs showing that over 14.5:1 is a good idea? I challenge anyone here to post them. Proof is in the pudding. Where's the pudding?????

I think everyone that is looking at this "more is better" should do themselves a favor and ask some pro builders like DASA, Sparks, Duncan, Baldwin and a ton of others why they don't go beyond 14.5:1


I also believe there was a guy named Blackie that frequented ******* and a couple other sites that played with a 16+:1 trx motor. He then replaced that setup with a lower compression 14:1 and a milder cam and MADE MORE POWER!

Go figure........

But, that's just my opinion. You all should get second and third opinions before spending any money - that's for sure.....

once again, your speculating with no facts...

i already have the facts.... who says i need to prove to you? you think the builders you mention need to prove that they dont run higher compression in races? you actually think that they don't sell more than 14.5:1 because of the gains, or more accurately from design constraints? you think they dont squeeze all their race engines as much as they can? you think that 14.5:1 is some magically sweet spot for consumers or racers? why not less, why not more? can you answer these questions or are you just blubbering again?

wait, you must have some kind of proof here otherwise its all just you trying to discredit again, huh? i'd bet the later...

[wilkin250r]

Just subscribing to the thread, I see trouble brewing...

Originally posted by honda4life72
lol good joke ,

it wasnt intended to be a joke. My cousins cousin races professionally and has everything rebuilt from the ground up. His HP is something rediculous and yes it is way up there.

[Aceman]

Originally posted by chad502ex
once again, your speculating with no facts...

i already have the facts.... who says i need to prove to you? you think the builders you mention need to prove that they dont run higher compression in races? you actually think that they don't sell more than 14.5:1 because of the gains, or more accurately from design constraints? you think they dont squeeze all their race engines as much as they can? you think that 14.5:1 is some magically sweet spot for consumers or racers? why not less, why not more? can you answer these questions or are you just blubbering again?

wait, you must have some kind of proof here otherwise its all just you trying to discredit again, huh? i'd bet the later...

Not knocking you but wouldn't it be in the potential buyers best interest to show dyno proven results showing the gain from the typical 14.5:1 piston to your 15:1-17:1 engine mods?. I only say this because YOU are the one trying to sell the product/service.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Aceman
Not knocking you but wouldn't it be in the potential buyers best interest to show dyno proven results showing the gain from the typical 14.5:1 piston to your 15:1-17:1 engine mods?. I only say this because YOU are the one trying to sell the product/service.

Aceman, very good questioning. I have no problem with your question or how you presented it..

here's the thing,... the customers whom have my piston know and have tested it... so, in a sense i've already proven the results and you can bet that i have the dyno test results too..... the new piston imo is even better than the first batch which is also why i never sold any of the first batch except to the ppl whom believed in the design,... all of those first ppl were serious racers and I told them that if my piston had any issues or didn't produce that I would replace it at my costs completely,... gues what?,.... they are still running very strong.... evenually i'll post some results,...

... but I do not want to come off like I'm trying to force or sell my piston to the general public,... actually, this piston was not intended for the general public,... its real design are for the racers whom understand its use... dont get me wrong, its not limited to just racers, but I'd almost feel like its installation into a bone stock engine would defeat its real purpose... you'd may as well get a $150 shelf piston if the installation will be intended for mild or recreational build....

This upcoming season two different Pro racers, along with a few others, will be running this piston,.. time will tell us all soon enough

back to your original concern..... take a few moments to read this thread... explains the technical reasoning for gains with associated compression.. pay special note to the dyno and the following chart in my next post that mathmatically predicts the power measured.... let me know if you have further questions..

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=308158&perpage=13&pagenumber=2

Hope this helps.

[chad502ex]

I'll post pictures Thurday night!

[One_Bad_400]

i'm running a 16.5:1 in my race bike :D :D :D :D and let me tell ya.... it HAULS!!! socket jurking!

[One_Bad_400]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
to the reply that 60HP is acheiveable, I think you can get it higher. My friends 450 has 75 or 80 some HP. 16k into the motor though complete pro race bike

your joking right?!?! farrs 450 last year was getting probably 60hp and MAYBE 65 just cuz baldwin know what he's doin

my bike is running MAYBE 57hp and my bike is done to the max... there is nothing left for curtis s. to do to my motor then to bore out the carb. and when i sent that to him next week that will only add MAYBE 2 more hp

I know, my cousin was wrong but he does have 60 something I'm telling you. Everything that can be done to a YFZ was done. Maybe the YFZ has more HP idk

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
And then there's the fact that the best power producing motors in the 450 class are running no more than 14.5:1 compression due to reduced combustion chamber efficiency when you stick the piston too far into the head at higher compressions - but I bet that wasn't brought up here....


Where are the dyno runs showing that over 14.5:1 is a good idea? I challenge anyone here to post them. Proof is in the pudding. Where's the pudding?????

I think everyone that is looking at this "more is better" should do themselves a favor and ask some pro builders like DASA, Sparks, Duncan, Baldwin and a ton of others why they don't go beyond 14.5:1


I also believe there was a guy named Blackie that frequented ******* and a couple other sites that played with a 16+:1 trx motor. He then replaced that setup with a lower compression 14:1 and a milder cam and MADE MORE POWER!

Go figure........

But, that's just my opinion. You all should get second and third opinions before spending any money - that's for sure.....



I read the discussion about this on the org, and it seemed everyone was just thinking out loud with no evidence to back up the theory that there is a "sweet spot" for compression. Since you are asking to see dyno runs for anything over 14.5:1 proving it makes more power, why dont you do the same proving that a 14:1 setup will make more power than a 15:1 setup... proof is in the pudding right?

I do agree most are probably looking at this as more is better, and I am too, but not in terms of compression, more features on this piston than others I've seen. That is all.

Also, like you said, reduced combustion chamber efficiency was not brought up... until you had said something, so please enlighten us... I would like to learn about the topic. No point in bringing it up if you're not going to explain it for those of us with little to no understanding about it. Thanks sandman!:)

[chad502ex]

well, I'd like to say something on combustion chamber efficiency...

it begins with having a flat topped piston. A flat piston is the floor of the combustion chamber. the flatter the piston dome the "so-called" more efficient the combusion chamber is with squeezing the charge within the combustion chamber (where else would the charge be squeezed? and how much more efficient can a flat domed piston be of equal high compression domed piston?). Flat pistons help with communication between the intake and exhaust valves for scavenging effect, where the flow out the exhaust can assist at tugging the intake charge during camshaft overlap conditions. Scavenging channels are channels machined in the pistons dome between the intake and exhaust valve cutout pockets to assist in the low pressure exhaust flow which tugs across the pistons dome toward the intake tract. I wont say that communiaction channels are ineffective at producing measurable gains, but I do believe that the shape of the pistons dome can assist in scavenging across it. Also, a flatter piston can assist in the flame front energy propagation. The flatter the piston, the more "ball-like" the flame-front is above it... A ball-like explosion is said to be near isotropic, where along the diameter of the ignition event the ball is the same radius from the plug tip. When the pistons dome is flat, the flame-front can radiate equally in all directions within the combustion chamber. Dome pistons tend to squeeze the ball-flame plumming outward to the cylinder walls.

Now, having said that,...

combusion chamber efficiency is using flat pistons compared to domed pistons and is extremely difficult to quantify (measure) efficiency gains as flat pistons prohibit higher static ratio design to bring to equal comparisons.. even dome piston design often times comes with constraints where without using tuliped valve cutouts like in my design you can only get so high in compression before you begin to bring the piston closer to the valves.... even the high compression pistons sold have problems getting enough material on top of the dome to exceed 14:1 without affecting compression chamber efficiency. For the 14:1 pistons to overcome this static compression ratio target, the piston designer must add material to the dome making the chamber floor even more inefficient.... My design doesn't add more material to the dome, it adds it back into the valve pocket area to match the backside of the valve being dished. In fact, my higher compression piston has a more efficient dome than what is currently offered with high compression pistons.... I've name it "Antivenom"....

[sandmanblue]

The reason I brought the combustion chamber efficiency up was to allow Chad to post what he had to say. I will agree with his description of the general effects of piston design. He has made some assumptions on valve dishes - and it might be worthwhile to ask about flat faced valves... We shall see.

You know - all I am asking for is some contrary evidence to the commonly accepted conclusion that there is a sweet spot for compression on the 450cc motors. Going either above or below that point and "saying" that it is better, or desirable to go to 15+:1 is one thing... An opinion. No problem with opinions. BUT. Like everyone else out there, if ANYONE was to provide an opinion and not be able to justify it through comparative testing, then we haven't proved anything.

I hope Chad has a better mousetrap (so to speak) of a piston. The dynos showing an increase better have the same motor and same external mods on both runs, as well as an AFR trace and a description of the pistons used.

I'd like to see the results myself - not to bash or anything else. Just to see...

I would hope that the comparison includes a piston from one of the top builders in the 14:1 category. I wouldn't think it fair to show a 13:1 and a 15:1 together. Also - if there was any modifications to the cylinder head that removed material, the actual static compression would be less than than stated, so a 15:1 could easily drop to 14.5 or so with just a little chamber modding...

Just provide the whole story and I will ask questions and let Chad respond. I don't think that will drag this thread into the gutter....

Lastly, I would fully expect a bump in compression to add bottom end to the powerband. How far you can upo the compression and make gains is one question we don't have the answer to. I do believe (this is a belief - not a fact) that at some point, the top end (peak power) will DECREASE with added compression. BUT!!! That's what we all need to see tested - is this belief founded on bad info or is not?

Let's find out. okay?

[Chino886]

Nicely done Chuck (for not starting a fight)!

I am one who has not crossed over the barrier of 14:1 yet, that is what I put in my last race bike that I built, but sold it prior to any dyno runs!

I would like to see a 3 ring 15:1 compression 450R piston.........fast and reliable.........LOL!

Untill then.............just lurking around!

[chad502ex]

Flat faced valves are custom valves that cost $150 each,... why spend twice the cost of "a" custom piston on four valves when you can incorporate the added cc's in material for compression increase back into the piston before its milled out of the valve pockets?...

as long as communication between the intake and exhaust port is maintained during high RPMs for scavenging effects, a higher compression piston will make more power until thermal ineffeffiencies start taking over. Thermal efficiencies, or the mathmatical equation to calculate where the compression point where gains are become flat is not referring to STATIC compression, but more accurately, the running compression (aka dynamic compression). Pistons designs thus far have been limited to 14:1 due to design constraints, where my design does not have any P-V limitations like the other do. When engines run, static compression ratios are meaningless. Running compression is always lower than static, except where forced induction, so the effieciency equation can be maximized against dynamic compression...

There are three pistons that I consider performers in the 14:1 piston category.
1. The CP Piston Race 13.5:1
2. The Baldwin 14:1
3. The Venom 14:1

#3 is almost an exact replica of features to #1 so we can combine the talk of those two into #1... both good performers, price advantage and less weight to #1.
#2 excellent billet piston. I prefer forged pistons as the porous properties will hold oil better than billet. Shallow valve pockets to maintain compression inhibits the use of larger lift/overlap camshafts.

I've explained my long-winded version of the 14:1 design constraints and the importance of DYMANIC Compression over STATIC compression when applying the thermal efficiency equation to piston static compression design considerations...



How far you can up the compression and make gains is one question we don't have the answer to. .. sure,,,, we have the answers to this question. Physics still applies here... if your wanting proof regarding compression over 14:1, how about you call your buddies over at KBR for a venom 15.5:1 470 dynosheet where they are making power under high compression, or how about you call 370king and ask him about his 511 making 63 using >16:1.. and if this dyno that WPP posted doesn't help illustrate for you what compression does for a build with the same components, I'm open to expand our discussion...

[chad502ex]

here's a picture of one.

[chad502ex]

another angle

[Scro]

This may be a little off topic and an easy answered question, but what makes one piston make more compression than another. Is it the amount space in the combustion chamber at TDC? It seems like this is what you are aiming for with this piston you posted, with the raised portions where the valves are.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Scro
This may be a little off topic and an easy answered question, but what makes one piston make more compression than another. Is it the amount space in the combustion chamber at TDC? It seems like this is what you are aiming for with this piston you posted, with the raised portions where the valves are.
actually, I still think we are on topic here... the topic being the highest compression piston available... the topic should also be the BEST piston available too!!! LOL!!

there is more areas in the piston design that raise static compression..

obviously, tuliped valve pockets add more cc's into the dome of the piston...

but there is another area that can assist in raising compression,.... compression height defined as the height from the top of the wrist pin to the deck of the piston. Also helps with squish to increase velocities over the piston to keep it cooler for preventing detonation.

[wppracing]

With these pistons what size valves can be used ? and since the valve pockets are tuliped what type of valves can be used ?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by wppracing
With these pistons what size valves can be used ? and since the valve pockets are tuliped what type of valves can be used ?

the intake and exhaust tulip will work for any stock size dished valve and up to a +1mm exhaust dished valve.

Being that the valve cutout depth is so deep, a monster Web 208 with 12 additional degrees on the exhaust (+6 degrees added to overlap) with a 0.040" head decked still gives about 0.070" P-V....

completely unheard of on any other piston available...


wahooo!!!!

:macho

[sandmanblue]

Chad - this is why I disagree with half the stuff you post.......

Straight from the thread where Gary - 370kingr posted his dyno runs on his 501...... "The cylinder was milled .005 only and when i finishedd cc'ing i had 13.8 compression."

I also talked to Kam at KBR and while he has run higher compressions in some builds, his hill shooting 501 build uses a little over 14:1. Considering that motor is built to do one thing only, win hill shooting events, it would be quite logical for him to use as much compression as he thinks will make power.

Just because somebody built a motor that had 16:1 or whatever compression and it "made power" is not proof that it would have made MORE power with that high of a compression - THAT is my point.

All the theory and calculations in the world cannot and do not prove anything. So, I'll be waiting for the dyno results of YOUR 15:1+ versus another brand of 14:1 to see if what you're saying is accurate.

BTW - Brian's dyno above uses a 14:1 piston.... Not higher..... Don't try to make it sound like I said that a 14:1 isn't gonna make more power than a 13:1 - that is not what I said.

The ball is in your court to show that a 15:1 Piston de la Chad is better than a 14:1 Baldwin, Venom, or CP or whatever.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
I also talked to Kam at KBR and while he has run higher compressions in some builds, his hill shooting 501 build uses a little over 14:1. Considering that motor is built to do one thing only, win hill shooting events, it would be quite logical for him to use as much compression as he thinks will make power.


BTW - Brian's dyno above uses a 14:1 piston.... Not higher..... Don't try to make it sound like I said that a 14:1 isn't gonna make more power than a 13:1 - that is not what I said.


I knew you would set yourself up on the KBR thing.. your wrong again,...


i suppose this 15.5:1 KBR/Venom dyno never occured, huh?


guess you also think that at 14:1 everything must stop and that theres nothing left beyond the copy piston!


and its funny to read your posting from afar where you suggest to everyone breaking thier Athena sleeves to "press another sleeve around it" or how you guess on side loading with John on the phone.... I guessed it right, you cant even calculate the exact loading or understand the effects of pressing another sleeve on the cylinder sleeve. You and John must be tight, probally french kiss through the phone too...

[Elduner]

UHHH I want in on this one....


I run more than 14.1 using a Baldwin 14.1.... and with out going into much detail it works great for me.....


I'm interested to see how this pans out Chad... I can alway use a replacement piston on Boogie....


Glamis this year should be fun... Will keep my eyes open to see when the little spider's will be out there............


BTW.... I like the design of this piston far better than your last design.

[Elduner]

On a side note.....

You can now get Venom porting on E-gay....

LOL

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Trx450r-Porting-headwork-yfz450-450-Raptor_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43972QQihZ018QQi temZ280145253878QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Hurry only 3 hours left!!!!!!!!!

so remember .... if it ain't made by Venom it just ain't so!;)

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Elduner
UHHH I want in on this one....


I run more than 14.1 using a Baldwin 14.1.... and with out going into much detail it works great for me.....


I'm interested to see how this pans out Chad... I can alway use a replacement piston on Boogie....


Glamis this year should be fun... Will keep my eyes open to see when the little spider's will be out there............


BTW.... I like the design of this piston far better than your last design.

Elduner, thank you for your support and interest. I agree that this design is complete and better than my prototype that JE made.

Trust me, I would not have made the production runs if they didn't produce more

[GPracer2500]

Hey Chad, what led to the cuts between the valve reliefs? I think understand why they're there (AFAIK, better scavenging during overlap and a "straighter" path for flame propagation). I'm just curious why the proto didn't have them and/or if you found the lack of having them left some potential performance on the table.

If you don't want to reveal details of the development process, that's cool. I'm just curious.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Hey Chad, what led to the cuts between the valve reliefs? I think understand why they're there (AFAIK, better scavenging during overlap and a "straighter" path for flame propagation). I'm just curious why the proto didn't have them and/or if you found the lack of having them left some potential performance on the table.

If you don't want to reveal details of the development process, that's cool. I'm just curious.

Lets just say that CP Pistons was able to "PERFECTLY" manufacture the piston as I requested...;)

[chad502ex]

FYI, notice how CP Pistons manufacture 3 of the four top performing ~14:1+ pistons

[chad502ex]

3d undercrowning...

[TURBO-530R]

Well I can say that I have my New DRG piston and will install it this weekend.

Now when DRG finishes with my Full Race Ported Head I will install it and Go Kick Some More *** at the track.

It’s really nice to see your head being ported and flow tested and able to see the Improvements and further more be able to see them at the track and on the Dyno.

On Saturday September 15th the bike should be at Tomahawk race track at the 500 ft Dirt drag strip if any one wants to try it out.

Thanks Chad for Working on this for me in such short notice to make this race. Jim

P.S. Next we can start on my new Head for the Turbo Charged Engine:D :D :devil:

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by chad502ex
I knew you would set yourself up on the KBR thing.. your wrong again,...


i suppose this 15.5:1 KBR/Venom dyno never occured, huh?


guess you also think that at 14:1 everything must stop and that theres nothing left beyond the copy piston!


and its funny to read your posting from afar where you suggest to everyone breaking thier Athena sleeves to "press another sleeve around it" or how you guess on side loading with John on the phone.... I guessed it right, you cant even calculate the exact loading or understand the effects of pressing another sleeve on the cylinder sleeve. You and John must be tight, probally french kiss through the phone too...


That's not Kam's hill shooter motor....

Do you actually READ my posts? Let me repeat it for you... "I also talked to Kam at KBR and while he has run higher compressions in some builds, his hill shooting 501 build uses a little over 14:1." You're the one without the clue... :rolleyes:

As for the other stuff - as typical, you didn't understand what I was talking about. You seem more focused on discrediting me. Besides - it's off topic. We're talking about your piston here, nothing else.


STOP BSING CHAD AND SHOW SOME RUNS! YOU'RE THE ONE TRYING TO PROVE YOURSELF - NOT ME. I'M NOT THE ONE TRYING TO SELL STUFF. YOU ARE! RATHER THAN TRY TO DISCREDIT ME, WHY DON'T YOU SPEND MORE TIME ACTUALLY POSTING DYNO RUNS OF YOUR STUFF INSTEAD OF MADE UP MARKETING CHARTS AND PICS OF A PISTON??????


Just don't try to pass of some bs dyno runs of a stock piston compared to your 15:1. That ain't gonna fly. It better be a fair and decent comparison or you will again be exposed for trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes....



Lastly, I found an update on 370kingr's build. He had detonation problems with his build and destroyed a piston after he decked the head to get close to 15:1. Here's the quote "Since the dyno runs at Johns i milled the head .020 so im up about a full point in compression (remember its a stroker) so im close to 15:1."

He later said that he would run C14 fuel after he gets it back together. It's still nowhere near the 16+ figure you posted.....

[chad502ex]

this will be my last post in this thread, as I believe the thread topic (title) has been answered with clarity


sandmanblue, I've got more test data than you can possibly imagine, as I have the test equipment (dyno access, flow benches, modeling software) available to me to use where your physics-wanta-be builder boyfriend only guesses...


I hesitate sharing any data mainly because of ppl like sandmanblue with his only intent to slander any accomplishment that he or his boyfriend doesn't comprehend... I will be showing dyno testing soon..

In a seperate topic, I'd be willing to discuss getting an independent test, not my own, to compare against any other piston available...

Because sandmanblue does not post here at ATVRIDERS for any other purpose but to sour any technical discussion we have through the whispering voice of mixxer via phone conversations.... I've enabled the "IGNORE" option on him from this point forward...

My 2 Pro riders are more than happy to use it, along with the local and distant racers that like it, along with the others too.


Discuss it amongst yourselves....


... buy it or dont, like it or don't, the best it is, tested its been, show you I wont..

[wilkin250r]

Chuck, what are you trying to prove?

I'm seeing a disturbing trend in your posts. Like Chad has alluded to, you seem to post simply to try to discredit him.

Why are you so bent on seeing dyno results? Are you looking to purchase? What is it that drives you to see "proof" that this piston is good or better than another?

Fact is, this piston is for people looking for compression higher than 14:1. Whether or not they actually NEED it is not for you to decide, and it's not up to you to protect his customers from themselves. Because, quite frankly, your protection is starting to piss me off, because it's starting a lot of arguements.

And Chad, as I have said before, you can keep the "probally french kiss through the phone too" comments to yourself, they don't add to your credibility.

[sandmanblue]

Dyno results coming - according to Chad....

Oh wait... no.... buy on faith...

"... buy it or dont, like it or don't, the best it is, tested its been, show you I wont.."

That's funny right there. I don't acre who you are!


In that case, I built a 15.1:1 piston that is better than everything else, it's been proven, and I won't show any of you that it's better....

Oh, of course, I'll be taking orders on it at my website.

www.total-bs.com


You all just have to trust me that it's great.....



I think that's how Splitfire Spark Plugs, and the Turbonator were marketed too....


Anyone see the similarities????????

[Kilabanshee]

Ahhhh Chuck. It's funny how you're just trying to bash Chad's products. First off I'de like to ask a simple question.... Can you Read? Chad's piston offers more features then any other piston on the market! Also with higher compression! Chad is one of the smartest guys I know, I bet he put alot of research and though into this design. I've also had a chance to ride on my friends 450r's with one of chad's prototype pistons. Let me tell you that thing flat out hauled. Arm wrenching power! Now a new piston with even more features then the prototype batch. Let's just say I'm sold.......

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by Kilabanshee
Ahhhh Chuck. It's funny how you're just trying to bash Chad's products. First off I'de like to ask a simple question.... Can you Read? Chad's piston offers more features then any other piston on the market! Also with higher compression! Chad is one of the smartest guys I know, I bet he put alot of research and though into this design. I've also had a chance to ride on my friends 450r's with one of chad's prototype pistons. Let me tell you that thing flat out hauled. Arm wrenching power! Now a new piston with even more features then the prototype batch. Let's just say I'm sold.......


:rolleyes:


I guess that's the difference between making a decision and making an EDUCATED decision....

Have fun with that there bud.

[audioguru76]

OK, so what options for bore do you offer? A buddy of mine is planning on upgrading to a higher compression piston. Not planning on stroking, but maybe a little bigger bore. Basically, a mildly modded 05 450r with HRC, exhaust, filter and he wants more power for recreational riding (no pro racer here). Is this the type of ride/rider for your piston, or is it more for a full race type bike?

[GPracer2500]

.......

[pro-rider46]

well chad is not going to answer that since he said he is done with this thread. but as far as i know its for a stock bore only, and is mainly for a racer, you could put that piston in that 05 but you will have to run race fuel. which is 105+ (at least) and costs about $7+ a gallon. but you can do that if your willing to do the best and run top dollar stuff.

[audioguru76]

he already runs race gas most of the time. I think he should just go with something in the 13:1 range. I keep telling him that the hardercore he makes this the more maintenance it will require.

[pro-rider46]

if it is a stock piston that he is running now the drg piston will be actually more reliable ( i think) cause the way it oils and has accumulation grooves and and anti det grooves. and is lighter, so overall it is a lot better piston than stock reliablity wise. along with some awesome power gains.:D

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by pro-rider46
if it is a stock piston that he is running now the drg piston will be actually more reliable ( i think) cause the way it oils and has accumulation grooves and and anti det grooves. and is lighter, so overall it is a lot better piston than stock reliablity wise. along with some awesome power gains.:D

A 15:1 is going to put a LOT more strain on the rod and crank - two well known weak points on the 450R motors. This could be said for a 13.5:1 and up - not just this particular piston.

There have been no known issues with "pistons" being a problem, so you are half right - but drawing a reliability conclusion from a new product is not possible. The known problems are the components attached to the pistons. Pin oiling problems, rod end bearing failures, rod breakage, crank bearings....

In addition, the camshaft should be matched to the compression level being used. Using a very high comp piston with a mild cam can spell dangerous combustion pressures. Just food for thought since these details are never brought up......

[pro-rider46]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
A 15:1 is going to put a LOT more strain on the rod and crank - two well known weak points on the 450R motors. This could be said for a 13.5:1 and up - not just this particular piston.

There have been no known issues with "pistons" being a problem, so you are half right - but drawing a reliability conclusion from a new product is not possible. The known problems are the components attached to the pistons. Pin oiling problems, rod end bearing failures, rod breakage, crank bearings....

In addition, the camshaft should be matched to the compression level being used. Using a very high comp piston with a mild cam can spell dangerous combustion pressures. Just food for thought since these details are never brought up......

yep