View Full Version : Big Problem
ok guys, i'm gonna lay it out for you and tell me what your genius minds can think of, this is kind of confusing tho, so follow everything
My quad is all stock except the uni-filter and 5 holes drilled in the air box
ok, i am basically having problems with a cobra exhaust system i bought
when i bought the system i asked the guys at the counter several times if i needed to re-jet the bike and they said no
so 3 days later i am all excited and the pipe shows up and i install the system
The quad started up fine and sounded really good, i got the quieter version cuz they said the cheaper one is really really loud. I test rode the bike down the street a few times and sounded and ran really good, so i put it back on the trailer.
I took it out for a trail ride the following weekend and it was running good and felt like it was easier to lift the front tires off the ground, so i was happy with the $160. Almost exactly 45 min into the trail ride i was goin down a sandy straight at about 40-45 mph and the bike just shut off, kinda felt like someone pulled the spark plug wire or somethin, no jolts or noises or bangs, just lost all power, it turns out the bike was running way hotter than normal and it was really overheated. I let the bike cool for about 20 min and it started right up and brought me back to the truck fine.
After this i went back to the shop and asked for a 130 main jet, a 122 was on it. so i put the 130 on, ran it down the street and it sounded and felt a little better, so i thought i was dead on. it just makes a small popping noise when decell sometimes and i know this means i need to move the e-clip down a notch but i can't find any e-clip in my carb, is it suppost to be on the float or by the main jet or what?????
Anyways i took it to out local track a few weeks later with the 130 main, the track is 1 mile in length around it, i started it up and let it warm for a few, then took it for a lap and it felt fine, but about 3/4 way through the lap it overheated and would not rev at all, i mean it felt like when your bike is really cold and you try to punch it and it bogs, so i took it to the little parts and service spot at the track and the kid working there said he didn't know anything about quads, but he had a 142 main that he just gave me to test
So i put the 142 main on and my dad insisted i cover the drilled holes with duct tape so i did so and took it for another lap and the thing overheated in a 1/4 lap this time, so i assumed i killed the top end and it needs rings and gaskets and stuff, cuz it did that when i started it up to, so i took it home.
the next day i put the stock 122 main back on and the stock exhaust and started it up and it ran fine, no probs or anything????????? i haven't ran it down the street but it started up great and all so i fig something is really wrong here, cuz the cobra system just isn't working:confused:
That is all and i am really confused, my dad fig he could just cut the end of my head pipe and weld it to the stock header so i could use the slip on, but i told him after i spent $160 on that thing he wasn't goin to mess with it at all. so i think i am goin to go ahead and put a new top end and gaskets in it, what is the a good piston to go with besides the oem piston, i fig if i bore it a little bigger it would work good with cobra's bigger header.... i don't want to spend a whole lot of money on it because i just want to get some resale value out of it, i want to still use the cobra system so any advise on jettin and what not would be helpfull. thanks in advance
josh
330exracer122
10-22-2002, 05:50 PM
ur not jeted right bucko
Steven
10-22-2002, 05:50 PM
what kind of quad? those jets seem small???
330exracer122
10-22-2002, 05:54 PM
well i can tell its a 300ex cause of the 122 but most people run a 128 main.. im not exactly sure though becuase i never jetted a 300 carb i got a bigger one an im at like a 150 i belive
it's actually a 1991 250x, but anyone know were i could get an aftermarket piston and rings and top end gaskets for cheap, like $70 or less for a high compression, o, and how much is a oem piston and rings??
thanks
i know it's not jetted right but any suggestions on were i should go with the jetting, up or down, or what about the pilot
Crypted1
10-22-2002, 11:32 PM
Do you know about plug readings???
Put the header and pipe back on, untape the holes in the box. If its running that hot your lean so try a bigger jet first. Run it around around for a while then pull your plug and look at the electrode. You know black rich, gray lean. Make adjustments, then repeate the process with a new plug. I don't mess with the clip unless I can't get it right with the main jet. The clip is on top of your needle in the top side of your carb. Usually have to pull the carb. to get to it.
Jetting is something that takes ALOT of pacients and practice, practice, practice. Take your time... its gonna take a while.
YZROOSTINYA
10-23-2002, 04:33 AM
if the quad is running good and not blowing smoke and it has good compression you do not need piston and rings
ya, i know how to read a plug and that, i guess i will go down and get a few new plugs and play with it for a while, cuz jettin off a used plug isn't very accurate is it, o and i am using 91 octane so i should be able to make a accurate plug reading, i know with the av gas you can't really tell from the plug, thanks guys, i'll play with it and tell you what happens
hm.....if it took the bike 45 min of me reving it cuz i like the sound so much for it to overheat, then i think if it only took it about 3-4 min to overheat at the track with a 130 jet vs. 122 then i should leave stock jetting on and cover the holes drilled in the airbox cuz it was barely lean then, right, i will try that cuz i don't think that cobra requires jetting, i have asked a few shops and they said no but i am goin to call cobra tomorrow and ask them if it needes to be jetted if it is all stock. thanks guys, i'll get back on what happens with the bike A.S.A.P.
josh
phatswinn
10-23-2002, 07:57 PM
i run a 128 with my e-series and no airbox mods and its diled in perfect, a 130 should be perfect for you, i just dont understand whats wrong
hey guys, i called cobra and they said go up a size on the main and move the E-clip one notch down, i found the main jet without a problem and i cannot find were the eclip is, i have looked thro everypart of the carb i can think of but can't find the stinkin E-clip, is it right under the main jet????? help with the dumb E-clip please, thanks
josh, there is a long skinny like needel that is a goldin color. i am not familiar with the 250x carb but... i know that the e-clip is on the top of that needel. find the needel, get to the top, and wa la there is the e clip wating for you. ( when i say top i mean fat part not long pointy part. and i am talking about inside the carb. u should see the tip of the needel down whare the air comes into the carb and the clip is probably covered by somthing twards the top of the carb.u will have to do some disecting to get to that or at least i did with my brothers blaster.
ok, latest update, i am tired and sick of this crap, i found the needle e-clip and put it one notch down fine thanks to hondaquadman, and and very very tired of pulling the damn thing apart to find it doesn't run right anyway, i put the 130 in and it took forever to warm up and you had to stay hard on the throttle to keep the bike running and it still wouldn't idle after warmed up, i think i have taken this thing apart today about 7 times, and that is tiring cuz you have to move the plastic and take the gas tank off to get to my carb, anyway, i put the stock 122 back in and it ran no better than the 130 so it is like 7:00 and i am pissed so i put it on the trailer and packed it up for the night, i'll play with it in a few days when my pactience is restored, o well, it just doesn't want to run right with the new pipe?????????????? dunno why either, maybe i'll just take it into a local shop and have them play with it, as long as it won't cost me more than $50
Crypted1
10-25-2002, 10:26 AM
Your local shop probally charges $50.00 an hour. and then a minium shop fee. Put the 130 back in it. Put the clip one notch down from stock, put everything back together, leave the plastic off. Start it, and adjust your air fuel mixture screw, it won't idle because the screw is turned too far out. turn it in a quarter turn at a time untill it starts to idle right again. I told you it would take a while... don't get upset just take your time.
wow, now the thing has been sittin in the garage for a few days and is drippin gas from the bottom of the carb, isn't this fun, looks like it's time for some new seals, i'll play with it tomorrow when it is light out
hay josh, this is kinda funny. ur problem its self int funny but when i got my brother's blaster the same thing was happening to it. there is probably a screw at the bottom of the flote bowl. turn the screw all the way in and it should stop leaking.To be honest with you i dont know what the heck that screw is but i know my brothers carb was pouring gas out ov the carb drain tube and all i did was tighten that screw and it stoped. so try that. as far as your no idel problem goes my blaster did the exact same thing but it was because of the TORS system that the blasters have not because of the carb. i am 99.9% sure that 250xs have the TORS system.I think it is probably the air/fule mixture screw. BUT maybe it is the throtil cable. i am not sure how the throtil cable connects to the carb on the 250x carb but i think your broblem may be the throtil cable. also i dont know whare the idel screw is but maybe it is that . i dont know but u must have patience( man i really cant spell) if u get pised let her sit for aday or 2 than get back into it. it is hard but the carb is one of the most complicated things that ive had to deal with and i do top ends and enginwork all the tiem. i still think the carb is harder. good luck
matt
ya, i agree, i've pulled the motor apart before without any problems and it is an overhead cam, and i still have more problems with the carb, o, it isn't leaking out of the drain tube, it was before but we fixed that, what is leaking is the bottom section, were the float is, it's that whole thing, i am goin to put new screws in it and make sure it is really tight, after pulling apart about 10 times the screws are getting warn, o, and me and my dad got it to idle with the air mixture screw, runs alot better now, haven't ridden it yet but sounds alot better and i just need to fix the leak at the bottom of the carb and i am fu*king done, thank god, thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated
josh
haha i am glad for ya man. it is alwase funny for me ill call my machine every bad word in the book when she is busted and i cant fix her but when i am done i still love her. man isnt victory sweet!
TRX_Thumper
10-26-2002, 08:08 PM
u dont have an overheating or jettin problem...4 stroke dont require jetting to be dead on 2 run good....i think u have a fuel delivery problem....somethings clogged up somewheres
well, i am goin to fix the leak on the carb then take er for a ride were i can put a new plug in it and run it down a road at 50mph for about a min and play with the settings out there, i'll let you guys know how it turns out when i get back, but i'm sure she will be called more names than expected
TRX_Thumper
10-27-2002, 12:29 PM
NO.........your floats in your carb are stuck open causing it to run rick and foul plugs after running for awhile...thats what happens when it leaks outta the carb even if it isnt from the drain...warriors are know for this and this is what they do.......i think u may have took off the floats and installed them upside down or somethin...by the way so so and cobra can tell you that u dont need 2 rejet but thats bull...only the motor knows when it needs 2 be jetted........more than likely it needs a 128 in it..
newest update, i'm pissed again, is it possible to win with this pipe
i did what you guys said, i took the whole carb apart except the floats, haven't touched those, and the leak wasn't comming from the bottom section by the floats, there was a small crack in the fuel line that was running down around the bottom making it look like there was a leak there, i went to checker auto parts and got a new fuel line and 2 new plugs, the fuel line doesn't have the s-bend but it works, i did what you guys said, put the e-clip on one notch down, put the 130 in with a brand new spark plug and tested it on a dirt road, the bike warmed up fine, sounded good, somewhat sluggish when nailing the throttle, but after 3rd gear took a while to accel, it normally jumps through everything untill 5th gear, then kind a slow, but not really, i rode it back and forth turning and just hard trail riding, and it took it about 10 min to over heat and do the same bullsh*t that it was doing before. this is very agrivating. so i took the plug out and it is somewhat withe and ashey at the tip and no color yet on the electrode, the bike wasn't able to run long enough to get a good reading from the plug, so i put it on the trailer, went home and finished my homework for the weekend, now what, i don't understand, can i win with this pipe, my dad thinks that the header is too big and causes the bike to run way too hot and it just isn't made right for the bike, i'll play with it tomorrow and let you guys know, o and about the float being stuck, you can move it back and forth fine and i have not removed it at all so i think it is ok, o and when my dad started the bike up and took off it smelled somewhat rich, so maybe you are right thumper
TRX_Thumper
10-27-2002, 08:51 PM
yes 1 minute is enough for a plug to get a reading...if its i think your oil filter is in backwards...yep thats it..cause there is no oil in your top end i can tell...check yer oil filter asap
TRX_Thumper
10-27-2002, 08:55 PM
if the float was stuck the plug wouldnt be white tho...and if if its white theres a good chance there is no oil in the top end at all...well really that pertains more to a 2 stroke...what octane are you running?
i'm testing to see if this works, this is the pipe and header installedspark plug 006.jpg
TRX_Thumper
10-27-2002, 09:01 PM
what octane are you running?? what kind of oil? when was the last time u changed the oil and oil filter?
the bike is surprisingly dirty in that pic, here's what it normally looks like, this was before the pipe and re-appaulstered seat, sorry if i am a bad speller
TRX_Thumper
10-27-2002, 09:11 PM
man im tryin 2 help u just answer some questions for me....pictures arent gonna help us fix your problem any
i am running 91 octane, i check oil regularly but it has been sittin all summer without a change, cuz it is too hot to ride durring the summer here in arizona, and i am using honda's "pro honda" gn4 genuine 4-stroke motorcycle oil SAE 10W-40 SG/SF
i know pics won't do anything, i couldn't get any pics up before so i was playing with it and finally got it to work, i don't expect anybody to be able to jet a bike over the internet, phone or whatever if it isn't in person
TRX_Thumper
10-27-2002, 09:18 PM
ok what elevation are you?? and with the cobra does the header form a good seal between the head?? no air pulses out between head and header when u rev it up ?
not sure of elevation exactly, i think somewere around 2,000 or 1,800, ya, it forms a perfect seal, i put a new copper ring inbetween the header and the head, and i'm pretty sure no impulses and it is tightened good, when i first installed it it fit like a glove, absolutely nothing that didn't fit right or need adjusting, o and with this float thing, if you can move it back and forth when you take apart the carb it is fine right, cuz i have not ever removed it, the bike just doesn't run good with the cobra, i am going to put the stock pipe and jetting settings on it and take it for a short ride tomorrow and see if it overheats and does the same thing, i'll keep posted, and bare with me, i do appreciate the help you guys are giving and i know it will prob take a while, but i wonder if my top end is dead cuz it does this
o, and i will take it over to my dad's friends soon and do a compression test, i'm pretty sure he has the tools to do that
i'm gonna call it a night so i'll get back on tomorrow when off school
TRX_Thumper
10-27-2002, 09:30 PM
right now im startin to wonder if you have the right plug number in thar......but we will know alot after u take it for a spin with stock exhaust
josh i know you'll probably laugh at me but u know what....... i think somthing is wrong with your throtil cabel. i think this because when u hit the gas it takes it a decent amount of time for the engin to realy climb. so just check that. it probly isnt but maybe just maybe it is.
i dought it is the throttle cable, i will look into it but it revs fine when in neutral, just seems like it has lost some power, doesn't want to hit those higher gears very willing, i think i am going to take her for a spin tomorrow, and ya, i'm pretty sure i have the right plug # cuz i have been using the stock exhaust for about a year now with the same plug and haven't run into problems, and i bought 2 new identical plugs for it so.......... who knows, if it does work fine for a few hours with the stock exhaust then i would probably not recommend cobra to anyone else for atv exhaust, they make really good automotive and motorcycle stuff tho????????
if it works fine with the stock exhaust then my dad said we could use my stock header, and moddify it to fit the cobra mid and slip on peice so i get the good looks and sound for selling the bike
just started it and ran it for a few sec, no exhaust leaks from the front of the header or anywere on the pipe at all, exhaust is very tight and good
pretty sure the rings are dead now, cuz it blows some smoke when you rev it:(
TRX_Thumper
10-30-2002, 09:20 PM
im still bettin your oil filter is in backwards causin no oil flow to the top end which caused piston/ring failure and overheating
i'll def check into that, thanks, but i am going to tear down the motor this weekend to see if there are any scratches on the cylander, if there is i will go up a few sizes on the bore, but ya, i'll let you all know once i get the motor out and the top end apart
danney f
11-01-2002, 07:48 PM
You should be able to see if oil is getting to the top end by removeing on of the valve covers. If you cant tell kick it over a couple of times and oil should splater out.
o trust me, when i took them off before i didn't put cylicone back on so it still leaks a little so i dought that's the problem
well, motor is sittin on the bench in pieces waitin for rings and gaskets and a hone job:D, then it will be dunes in a few weeks if the bikes aren't sold by then:D
TRX_Thumper
11-03-2002, 07:02 AM
you still havnt found the problem...just rebuilding it will make it run better thats for sure....but its still gonna die....find out why the motor went bad?? oil filter?? im tellin ye dont ignore your oil filter
well it's sittin in pieces on the bench with the oil drained, when i drained the oil it smelled kinda burnt so i'm prob gonna put a new oil filter and new oil in, what do you think is the best oil for a 4 stroke, i just use honda's expensive stuff, their genuine motorcyle oil or whatever it's called, but i am gonna go take the filter out and take it down to the shop and get a new one, and i think the problem was the quad is 11 years old and has been used, not abused, just often used and it was well taken care of and i think 11 year old rings plus the oversized header just gave it that little nudge that's callin for a small rebuild, i think it was just time and a little extra heat from the exhaust, but i'll still look through everything carefully, the piston had a lot of carbon build up on it, like i mean a lot of carbon build up, and i cleaned it with a wire wheel and buffed it so that's good, and if i was keeping the bike for myself i would have it ported and polished cuz the valves have a good amount of carbon on them, is there a simple way to clean that without big bucks, like any chemical or grease dissolver or cleaning solution?? i just want to touch it up a little and get it running perfect like it did as all stock out of the factory, then it will be sold and i will buy something more powerfull and newer as my own high perf project:D who knows what i will do, but whatever it is i want more power that is still 4 stroke, i'm not overly opposed to 2 stroke, just don't wanna have to spend money one rebuilds every 6 months and stuff
phatswinn
11-03-2002, 12:25 PM
ok i just read that u put the e-clip up? it needs to go down, but i donno i just glanced at the threads
jello
11-03-2002, 12:30 PM
No offence but your kinda doing things backwords. Your doing/wanting to do all the big stuff first. Dont get me wrong doing all that engine work is great and all but its most likely still wont fix your problem. Your over looking the little stuff like your oil and oil filter. This could easily be the problem and it would be a lot cheaper to fix. But this is just my 2 cents.
Jello
ok.....on an engine that is running poorly what do you think i should look at besides the oil filter, i took the old one out and it was pretty dirty, wasn't clogged and i'm not sure which way is backwards but it spun freely, and i have already said i am going with new oil and a oil filter cuz the oil in it smelled slightly burnt... but i mean what else is there to look at, i have played with the spark plug.....jetting......run best pump gas always.......all fuel lines seem fine........air filter is always kept clean........always made sure enough oil was in bike.......put new oil in when needed.......so i am again asking myself and you guys what else is there to look over.......the rest of the motor looks great, all cam and top end parts i can see and shine a flashlite on are great, hardly any wear showing on anything......nothing is broken or worn out.........i am just confused on what made it die.......the only reasonable solution i could think of is that the motor is 11 years old and has been used it's whole life so far and the oversize header and less restriction made the bike run a few degrees hotter and just finally wore out after 11 years and needs new rings and a hone job........if you can think of anything else please get back to me on this
danney f
11-04-2002, 05:55 PM
OK I pulled out the manual so I could list everything that is most likly to cause overheating. There are 5 differant areas that can lead to overheating.
#1 Ignition system-check for:
A. Incorrect spark plug gap.
B. Incorrect heat rang of spark plug.
C. Faulty ignition control module/incorrect ignition timing.
#2 Engine compression system-check for:
A. Cylinder head gasket leakage.
B. Heavy carbon buildup in the combustion chamber.
#3 Engine lubrication system-check for:
A. Incorrect oil level.
B. Incorrect oil viscosity.
C. Faulty oil pump.
D. Plugged oil line.
#4 Fuel system-check for:
A. Clogged air filter.
B. Incorrect float level.
C. Incorrect carburetor adjustment or jetting.
#5 Brake and rear axle-check for:
A. Dragging brake.
B. Damaged or partially seized rear axle bearings.
Maybe this might help.
well josh i have to give u credit. i wont even go into my 400ex engine. i guyss if it aint broken dont fix it but this april when i get the 425 than ill have the fun lol i guess if my dad is a certified mechanic than i would have no problem and i do work on 2 strokes every 60 hrs(top end) and i dont know what u should do . check all the oil stuff i think there-inlies the problem.
well thanks for everything guys, this all helps very much and i don't know what i would do without this site, looks like we are running out of good places to look,
#1
i stuck my finger in the spark wire and kicked it over, i jus wanna say damn that hurt, so i don't think it could be the ignition system
#2
the head gasket wasn't leaking but out of the top of the vavle covers did have leaks in them due to me taking the motor apart about a year ago and not putting new gaskets on, so that is something to consider, but the main thing for #2 i think is the problem was carbon build up, i mean can i say wow, there was soo much carbon on the piston when i took it off that it was too thick for a wire brush, so i acted with a power wire wheel and it's gone now, and the valves and rest of combustion chamber have a pretty good amount of carbon build up on them so i'll find a way to clean that off i guess
#3
i'm not sure the oil pump was dead or not working but it did look pretty dirty and the oil did smell burnt when i drained it so that is also somewere to look
#4
i always keep the air filter clean and it was cleaned recently so that's not a problem, and i haven't messed with the float at all so no there, but i don't think i had the carburator adjusted properly so maybe.....
#5
this is not even something to look at cuz the brakes have always worked great and the bike rolls freely without the motor in it, and with the motor in it so......
this leaves problem #2 as a main to look at, #3 as a possible but i will replace oil filter and so on......and #4 is maybe considerable for overheating, but i don't think it was soo far off that it would of greatly overheated but it is still possibly considerable........and #5 isn't even a remote threat so
i guess i will clean the combustion chamber, put new rings, put new oil and oil filter in it, hone the cylander, put new gaskets were needed, put it back together, make sure jetting is close to precise so i can trail ride it, take it for a ride and see how she runs for a few hours and get back to ya guys this weekend when i can ride it..........
BUT THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH FOR ALL THE HELP YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN, I KNOW IT'S NOT BEEN EASY AND IT HAS BEEN HARDER AND MORE FRUSTRATING FOR ME BUT I AM VERY MUCH APREACIATIVE FOR ALL THE HELP YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!
Josh
danney f
11-04-2002, 09:41 PM
It is most likely a combination of all that you discribed. Each one not real bad(except the carbon buildup) but when put together started giveing you problems. Hope you get it running right.
joeroadking
11-05-2002, 08:49 AM
carb jetting and air fuel mixture can be trickey, I do not have the answer for you, but you should definatly check your compression. almost sounds as though the pipe has some restriction? does the head pipe glow red ?
no, head pipe doesn't glow or anything, it is larger and less restricting than the stock one, so i am guessing it was a build up off all the small things, so i'll clean it up, fix it and we will know how she's doin this weekend, hopefully alot better:confused:
hay josh i have to say the spark plug thing was the stupidest thing i have ever heard. why would u stick ir finget in tomthing like that. next time put the plug in the wire and put the tip of the plug close to the frame (like an inch away from somthing m,ettle on the frame) than kick it and look for a blue spark inbetween the plug and the mettle. ur finget isnt the way unless u want to fry ut hand lol. not ment as a flame but man common....:eek:
it's funner that way;) :p
DantheEXman
11-05-2002, 08:41 PM
Here is my theory: The engine overheated because of the carbon buildup in the combustion chamber. After all, It is 11 years old. That caused the oil to overheat slightley giving it the dark appearance. Then, this caused the oil to not do its job properly and you fried the rings. Simle as that. So just do a small rebuild and you will be up and running in no time;)
that's pretty much my theory, one thing led to another........and a clean up and small top end is all i intend on doing to it so it should be good for another 10 years, after all, it's a honda
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