86-87 swinger mod

[zedicus00]

this may or may not hav been covered here before but i figured its worth a note just in case.

for thouse of us running 86-87 style frames you may have noticed there is not an over abundance of good used parts available any more.

the stock swingarm on my quad is cracked and for some reason it gets a little worse every time i ride it... :huh

i noticed 450R arms apear to be pretty close in mounting to a good old 86 swinger so i snagged one of thiefbay for a fair price to give it a whirl.

i used a stock 04-05 model swinger from a 450R, other years may work, also aftermarket 450R arms should work too.

things that had to be modified.

you have to use the inner front tubes from the 86-87 as the 450R ones stick inwards about an extra half inch on each side. 450r bearings worked fine.

mounting to the frame its perfect no problem whatso ever.

the engine mount tube between the arm and the tube itself on the old arm has a seal. the 450r swinger has the seal inside it. not a major problem. just check the tube occasionally and keep it clean.

the dog bone mount for the swinger is about 2 mm to narrow. i fixed this by filing it by hand.

you will need the dog bone bolt for the 450R arm

a 450R carrier is recomended. not nesasary but recomended. if you use the 250r carrier there will be about a 1/8 inch gap on each side when its centered. once u get it bolted in and the carrier bolts tite i dont think it would move. i made a shim for each side just in case but after being on it i really dont think they are necesary.

the little spacer that goes in the slide for the brake stay bracket should come from the 450R also. the 250r one will work but there is no flange to keep it on and the 450r arm has no retainer clip grove. i stuck on the 250r one the very slightly mushroomed the pin. seems to work good.

if theres any major questions i can post pics but i think if u get everything layed out in front of you its pretty easy to figure out.

[86 Quad R]

i'm from the show me state lol. i wanna see some pics zed. :D

[87250rxrider]

sounds interesting. i'd like to see some pics as well b/c i'm in the market for a swingarm for my project 250r, and if i can save some money that way i'll do it.

[zedicus00]

http://i7.tinypic.com/67q176e.jpg

shows the entire thing all mounted up. you can see the shims i made out of aluminum plate. this is optional i would think. and if u had a 450R carrier this would be completely unnecessary.

http://i8.tinypic.com/4tpnn00.jpg

just shows the side mount. fits like a glove. i stuck a spare seal in there just cuz. there is a seal on the inside of the swinger so i only did this becuz i had a seal laying around.

http://i11.tinypic.com/6fg223s.jpg

well i did havde to notch the chain slide a bit to keep it from hitting the sprocket. its in a place where the chain doesnt even touch it though so it wont cause a thin spot or anything.

i did hav the chain on and tool it around the yard. im missing a rear chain slide and will be getting a swinger gaurd also before i consider it finished and buttoned up completly.

[86 Quad R]

thanks for posting pics. i may consider this mod myself in the future. how much difference in length is the 450 swinger compared to the 250?

[zedicus00]

it apears to be about the same length as an 88-89 250r swinger or about -1 to the 86-87 swinger. this is assuming using a stock 450R swinger.

basically im ending up with a bolt on mod to get the benefits of the 88-89 style stock swinger onto a 86-87 frame. liter weight aluminum and slightly shorter swinger.

this and the 450R front end i will bolting up next weekend. and then ive got a set of marvin shaws that i need to hav converted to coilovers that will be put on before too long. and i should hav a good handleing quad that has lost a significant amount of weight.

[86 Quad R]

what 450r front end parts are ya going to be putting on there?

[zedicus00]

everything from the spindle out. so spindles, hubs, brakes, etc. im keeping a few of the parts that were originally going to go on that aluminum frame that i have listed and they are going on my stock framed 250r. (the one in the pic the that i bolted this 450r swinger onto.)

450r spindles r aluminum and are another bolt on mod as documented by me in the brake swap sticky.

NOTE: ive never been one for buying prefab mods. i think the whole point of modding is to make things work. i hav some pics of the custom no-link set up i was going to run on the aluminum frame that i will post sometime in case any of you are looking for a cheap yet awsome way to go no link with out buying much new hardware.

actually i will tell you that all you need is a banshee rear shock to go no link on a 250R. that is it. remove yur link and link shock. bolt banshee shock to frame and swinger. now there are some minor points to be dealt with. shock valving, bushings for between shock and frame. but nothing that cant be easily dealt with.. absolutly no welding or major fabing is involved.

also depending on how you like yur ride hieght you might opp for an adjustable height aftermarket banshee shock.

[86 Quad R]

awesum idea/setup. :D be sure to post pics of that when ur done. :cool:


Originally posted by zedicus00 also depending on how you like yur ride hieght you might opp for an adjustable height aftermarket banshee shock. [/B]

actually i was thinking along those lines as i dont like the stock banshee shock. :rolleyes: dont ask me why.

[zedicus00]

im never done, i will post pics as i go though.

u might check out my previous post again, i added tons of stuff in the last edit. i think on the fly a bit.

also, is it just me or is it odd that after 20 YEARS the diffences that honda is making to the 250R design and calling it a revolutionary new sport atv (the 450r) can be measured in millimeters??

[87250rxrider]

would the banshee rear shock still work if i were to put a 450r swinger on my 250r?


thanks,
-Ryan

[zedicus00]

yes, shimming and spacing may be slightly different. where the stock linkage mounts to the swinger is different across each swinger variant also so you will need that specific bolt from the swingarm it goes too. you cant just use any typle of bolt you want there. the 450R swingarm has a floting bolt very similar to the bolt for the 88-89 style 250R arm. this helps destress this area on the aluminum swingers. the 86-87 steal swinger just has a normal flange head bolt.

also running a no link set up with a 450R swinger would eliminate the need to file the linkage mount as you could shim it exactly where u needed to instead of needing to remove material to get the linkage to fit.

actually i had the stock shock pulled out and was going to swap to a other banshee style shock i had laying around but the airboot was in the road, an lt500 airboot or something would prolly clear. i will jump through this hurdle at some other point. another option would be run a carb mount aircleener and do away with the airbox and intake boot completly.

[xlr810]

Great thread, Zed.

Once I saw the design of the 450R swinger, I always wondered if it could be made to fit a 250R.

I wish I had thought of using a banshee shock for no-link conversion on an R. I just sold one that was TCS revalved and resprung.

[zedicus00]

http://i11.tinypic.com/4zx5bv5.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/4vgmxrs.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/4vsufwp.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/4kxeoa8.jpg

heres where im at now. rear end still in same place. front end is +2 +1 with 450R spindles brakes and stuff. new handlebars yet to come.

ive got a beet up set of white fenders im gunna refurb and some black vynil im gunna make a seat cover out of so it will be basically all white or nutral colors.

[blasterandy]

arnt those drag shocks ??

[zedicus00]

they r competition drag shocks. i need to order a set of coilovers but they will work for now.

they actually handle really well and as long as you dont do no 50 footer flat landers they hold up fine. they are amazing on whoops and rutted terain.

[87250rxrider]

well, the 450r swingarm i bought just arrived today, so i bolted everything up. i used a 400ex axle, 400ex hubs, 400ex antifade locknut, and complete 400ex rear brake setup including master cylinder.

in order to get the 400ex brake caliper bolted to the caliper stay, i had to file down a small area of the swingarm so one of the bolts would clear the swingarm.

in order to get the 400ex master cylinder to bolt up, i had to flip the master cylinder the opposite way it would bolt on the 400ex, then i had to fabricate an aluminum extension so it could be bolted to the pedal.

my 250r frame is an '86 year frame but has had motor mounts welded onto the frame to make it like an '89 style frame. with this mod, all i had to do was cut a piece of pipe the correct length to fit between the two ends of the swinger where it bolts to the frame.

here are some pics:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pfa923354a041ff99cd73762b983fce5b/e8c30219.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pa72f352048eb65e930ccec886f59b77a/e8c300d4.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p589d61594f5f2d4eb1343e91a2eadc9b/e8c2ffcc.jpg



thanks,
-Ryan

[zedicus00]

awsome, looks goood man.

did the 400ex carrier fit perfect or does it stick out/in any?

[87250rxrider]

the Herrmann racing 400ex carrier i'm using does stick out about 2mm on each side.

[eddie pettengil]

hows this working out for you guys. Looking at buying one right now.

[87250rxrider]

my setup is complete. it works great, and i have no complaints at all. it sure was a lot cheaper than buying a 250r swingarm, and a lot nicer looking.

[atvmxr]

this needs to be a sticky since no-one seems to know this information......

[250Renvy]

I'm wondering if all this would work best if you used a complete 450R rear end?

Is there any issues with chain alignment?

Will any choice of 250R, 400ex or 450R antifade hub work?

[87250rxrider]

as of currently, i have been using my 450r swinger since last summer with no issues at all. you are going to want to use the 250r linkage and shock. a minimal amount of grinding will have to be done to the shock mount on the swinger, and by the carrier if you wish to use a 400ex rear brake caliper and mount as i did. thats all that had to be done. it fits on perfectly and has no issues.

-Ryan

[jake_evans420]

If you put the 450 swinger on an 86 250r can you still use your stock 250r axle, and brakes,etc or do you have to buy all 450 parts???

[vic425]

hey ive been looking for a pair of those competition drag shocks where can i find some...........

[87250rxrider]

you can still use stock axle and brakes. some shimming will be needed to brake caliper.

[ERBE]

So basically just confirm, a 450R Swing Arm Carrier and Cailiper (the whole rear end axel and all will work)

[87250rxrider]

all you need is a 450r swingarm. you can make everything else work.

[brandonpeake]

is this on the 86-87 frsme only? will it not eork on sn 88

[atvmxr]

works on the 88+ too. need to make a tube in the middle of the front where the bolt goes through.

this swap is good for the 86/87 style because of the rear engine mounting difference you cant use the 88+ swinger which is shorter and aluminum. using the 450 swinger allows you to get these benifits and keep the 86/87 engine mounting. If I had an 88 I would just use a stock 88/89 swinger unless I found a 450r one cheaper.. :)

[xlr810]

As you know parts for the 250Rs are becoming harder to find, and more expensive, while some are being discontinued.

I had been running a 400ex pivot bolt in my 250R since it was considerably cheaper and almost identical... One from a 450R is even less expensive, and works fine too-- That is what I'm currently using. Both the 400ex and 450R bolts are a fraction of an inch longer than the 250R bolt, so a washer or two are needed.

[ERBE]

Im sure you could use the 250r parts, seems to me to be eaiser to just use the 450R carrier and Brake setup, the only thing that worries me is this :

Sand getting into this part?

Is there a way of using a dust cap??

the engine mount tube between the arm and the tube itself on the old arm has a seal. the 450r swinger has the seal inside it. not a major problem. just check the tube occasionally and keep it clean.
Filed the swinger or the dogbone? 2mm is amost .080"
the dog bone mount for the swinger is about 2 mm to narrow. i fixed this by filing it by hand.

[krt400ex]

Originally posted by zedicus00
im never done, i will post pics as i go though.

u might check out my previous post again, i added tons of stuff in the last edit. i think on the fly a bit.

also, is it just me or is it odd that after 20 YEARS the diffences that honda is making to the 250R design and calling it a revolutionary new sport atv (the 450r) can be measured in millimeters??

the revolution comes in the engine...

honda started the revolution with the 250R handling, and now they finish it with the 450R engine... :blah:

i like the 250R better

[dtek01]

We just did this on my Uncles 86'.

Did anyone else notice that the dogbone mount tabs on top of the 450r swingarm are out about an 1 1/4" back from the oem 250r swingarm location and stretches the dogbone out and raises the back end when you bolt it up?

Reason I ask is it also seems to bind the rear end and the back feels much stiffer than before as well as higher up.

Is there a trick to overcome this?

[TheNewn]

Lower the preload? adjust the two rings on top of the spring to make it sit lower. Although i'm not sure how this effects the shaft travel and what not.

[atvmxr]

you may need to use a 87+ dog bone, i believe the 86 is an inch longer.

[brandonpeake]

so what about linkage and shock could u use a Gt thunder link and a 450R shock, now that would be sweet

[brandonpeake]

with this 450r swinger mod are u using the 450r shock and linkage or the 250R shock, I assumed u would use the 450r but i was cuious about the top mount?
I have extra 450r parts laying around so I might try it out i would love to try a GTT link and 450 revalce on the rear, im thinking about trying them on the front but i got a set of elka zero preload 400ex shocks on the front now that are working pretty good but i just got the bike so I havent put it through the paces yet, ill let u know after the weekend

[Rip_Tear]

I thought I'd add some things to this post since I just did this mod.

I ordered a full 450R linkage and swingarm off ebay, as well as a 86 250R swingarm bushing kit. This was very helpful over all since the linkage bushings make filing and shimming unnecessary. Also the bushing on the linkage for the shock mount fits perfectly on the 250R linkage where it meets the swingarm. I noticed no one mentioned that there was extreme play in that area when using the 450R's swingarm to linkage bolt, there is about 2mm of play in the diameter between the bolt and bushing's diameter, but with that shock bushing it fits both perfectly and reduced the total width of the rear linkage enough that you do not need to file at all.

I haven't finished my build yet to tell you how it rides but I'll make a thread when I have. Over all it's looking really good though.

[atvmxr]

are you talking about using the 450r dog bone?

[Rip_Tear]

Just the bushing from the dog bone, the one that the 450R shock would mount on.

Although I am looking into using the whole linkage now just too see how it would work. Is anyone using the whole linkage?

[atvmxr]

I thought the front linkage (U shaped one) will not mount to the frame and was much shorter = raising back end alot... I still have never got around to replacing the needle bearings in the 450r swinger I got nearly a year ago. lol

[Rip_Tear]

The only issue I'm having is with where the linkage connects to the frame, the linkage is so narrow compared to the opening and the bolt is about 2mm larger in diameter on the 250R frame side. So I need to make or find a bushing that has a larger opening for that bolt and then shims so that the linkage doesn't move side to side.

As far as it raising the height I don't think it will, the linkage is lower, but brings the shock forward, not sure if that will be bad or good, or null for that matter, but hopefully I'll find out soon enough.

My main reason for wanting to use the 450R linkage is so that I can use a standard 450R swing arm skid plate. The linkage also looks nicer and is lighter. The 250R linkage also touches the swing arm at full extension (where the shock mounts to the linkage).

I have a bushing that is close that I could use to just get an estimated height if you'd like.

[250Renvy]

Could try asking this guy or checking this out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140255390942&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123#ebayphotohosting

[brnrubr4ever]

New here, just bought an 87' 250r 3 weeks ago literally in boxes lol. did a frame up build (its running but NEVER done :devil:) , then ran across this post. Just ordered a 450r swinger with linkage. Has anyone done the swap with linkage? If so what needs to be done. Will I have to buy a 450r shock?

Thanks Guys.

[brnrubr4ever]

ok I just got done with the swinger linkage mod. had to bore out the bushings on the frame side and the shock mount on the 450r linkage. Also made some bushings for the frame mount as it is more narrow. It sit's lower not sure how much I'll find out later by measuring my buddys stock R. Everything seems to work ok though. Also got a GTT link on the way. I'll update as I go.

[ballzdeep38]

I am in the process of doing this mod on my 87. i have a 05 450r swingarm and am having problems getting the shock, dogbone, and the front/lower linkage (the one that connects to the frame and bottom of the shock) to line up. has anyone else had this problem. i am trying to get this together for saturday so im in a bind. the swingarm is fully extended and either the dogbone or the front linkage is about 3/4 of an inch off. can anyone help me out?

[swamprat250r]

what linkage are you using the 250r or the 450r? and is the dogbone too long or to short. if you are using the 87 250r linkage than the dog bone is too long this is because the swingarm is a inch or so shorter. to fix the problem you may have to use the 88 89 dogbone which should give you more suspension travel. the 88 89 swingarm is the same length as the 450r. hope this helped

[ballzdeep38]

yeah i am using the stock 250r dogbone, linkage and shock. i noticed no one else mentioned swapping dogbones. it makes sense that the 88-89 would be better. but is it neccessary? it looks like if i compress the shock a little it will bolt up.

[swamprat250r]

try bolting the shock to the link first then bolt it to the frame. may work better that way. then see how you like it you also use the 450 linkage

[brandonpeake]

i just talked to a guy over at ARS FX and he has a tech working for him running a 450r linkage and shock on his 250R bold rioght up, i didnt get year of parts but its their current stuff but i forgot to ask what year R but it was a stock frame

[brnrubr4ever]

just got done with mine, its an 05' swinger. I used 04-05 linkage, stock 250r shock, then 04-05 dogbone with the gtt link 250r shock and ended up buying 04-05 elka LT linkage and 450r Elka LT shock 18' setup is awesome. Sits where I want it. If your going to go with the 450r linkage make sure its the same year range as the swinger, 06+ the dogbone is shorter than 04-05. heres a pic :D

<a href="http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g217/brnrubr4ever/?action=view&current=CIMG3636.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g217/brnrubr4ever/CIMG3636.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[brnrubr4ever]

Originally posted by brandonpeake
i just talked to a guy over at ARS FX and he has a tech working for him running a 450r linkage and shock on his 250R bold rioght up, i didnt get year of parts but its their current stuff but i forgot to ask what year R but it was a stock frame

as for frame years its probably an 86-87 because the 450 swinger has the space where the motor mounts bolt up like the 86-87 . the 88-89 have a tube on the swinger and the motor mounts are on the frame

[brandonpeake]

i knew it when i read it if the swinger worked then the 450
r shock and GTT linkage would work too
great job guys!!!

[ballzdeep38]

ok im having some issues with this swinger mod. i have the swing arm bolted up and when i try and line up the the bottom of the shock with the dog bone and the linkage (that connects to the frame). i have tostart to slip the bolt through and use a pry bar on the linkage to make it line up and slip the bolt all the way through. when i do that the dust cap rests on the bottom of the swing arm. i took the bike off the stand and the the swing arm will not move at all. the swingarm will not move either way, up or down. did anyone else come across this problem? i am using the stock 250r shock, linkage, and dogbone. the only part from the 450r is the swingarm. and the swing arm is a 04-05 part. any advice?

[brnrubr4ever]

it does not move up or down?

[ballzdeep38]

no it wont move up or down. the swingarm itself will move freely when the linkage, dog bone, and shock dont have the bolt running through them. once the bolt is in there it is solid.

[knobbyboy]

Does anyone know if the 250r skid plate even comes close to fitting the 450r swingarm?

[Rip_Tear]

they aren't close. and if you use a 450R skid plate you will need to either mod the skid plate or run a smaller rear sprocket, I don't recall if the disc is okay or not. Currently I am running no rear skid but plan to work something out for this.

[Rip_Tear]

also if you use the 250R linkage the 450R skid plate isn't set up for the extra width of the dog bone, so you either need to mod that or use the 450R linkage.

[knobbyboy]

thanks, I am running a 39 tooth rear sprocket. I have a swing arm on the way and I hope to also get hold of the linkage so maybe it'll work out to bolt on a 450R skid plate.

[atvmxr]

oh wow, thats pretty cool the aftermarket 450r linkage works too. (havent kept up with this thread in a while...)

so which is better, elka or GTT?

[brandonpeake]

just curious as if this would woprk on an aftermarket frame, most of them are 88 or 89 style that I have ancountered

io prefer gtt over elka

[atvmxr]

The original idea was to have a shorter 88+ length aluminum swingarm for the 86-87 quads, the 88+ just use the factory aluminum one.

but now that this has morphed into using the 450r linkage and shock too then there may be some advantages for an 88+ plus also... you just need to fab up a tube to put in the middle. I think some one did this on page 2 or 3 of this thread...

[eddie pettengil]

its looks to me that the stock 450r shock will not work. the rezzy is in the way of my exhaust pipe. anybody else try this.

I'm using a stock 05 swingarm, linkage and shock. Everything will bolt up with very little work. The two problem I see is where the linkage connects to the frame. The 450r bolt is shorter and has a smaller diameter than the mount on the 250R. Also, some of the metal supporting that same mount will have to be cut away.

[brandonpeake]

I am wanting to do this to an 88 style laeger frame, I read rhe post but dont
understand could someone elaborate

i saw this post earlier?
works on the 88+ too. need to make a tube in the middle of the front where the bolt goes through.

this swap is good for the 86/87 style because of the rear engine mounting difference you cant use the 88+ swinger which is shorter and aluminum. using the 450 swinger allows you to get these benifits and keep the 86/87 engine mounting. If I had an 88 I would just use a stock 88/89 swinger unless I found a 450r one cheaper..


__________________

[Rip_Tear]

I used a combination of 250R parts and 450R parts, including bushings from the 250R swing arm and linkage.

I know I used a bushing from the 250R swing arm (where it mounts to the frame) for the linkage that connects to the frame, and I may have used another bushing or bolt up front... For the most part having all the bushing from the linkages and swing arms of both quads including bolts worked out very well.

I would elaborate but I really can't remember at this point, and my 250R isn't here for me to look at. If you would like more info I will post it when possible.

[knobbyboy]

Based on what I read here I have purchased from ebay an 04/05 450R swing arm with chain slider, and chain guide still on it, a 450R carrier, and the complete 450R linkage- all for $150 shipped. There are tons of 450R parts out there going cheap, much less than getting an 88 250R swing arm, or even a 400EX swing arm.

I am putting this on an 86 250R so went with the shorter 04/05 swing arm for XC. It sounds like I will need to drill out a couple of bushing mounting points a bit bigger cause it sounds like the 250R bolts are larger than those used on the 450R. I will also be looking for a 450R skid plate if I can't make the 250R plate work with mods.

If someone is into sand dunes or drag or MX they may want the 06 newer swing arm which is longer.

I started in on this because my carrier bearings are wearing out and that 86 swing arm weighs a ton. I parted one out recently and was surprised that this swing arm weighs about the same as the whole stink'en frame!

[250R-Dee]

Link has been added to the new sticky thread:chinese:

[Rip_Tear]

A little warning for you Knobbyboy and others, the 450R and most bushing are hardened steel and can only be drilled with carbon bits or harder. Regular drill bits will not drill through hardened steel. All though you do have the option to heat the bushing up and un harden them, drill them and then re harden them although you will need a very hot torch and a steel pail of oil, and I personally do not recommend any novice do this...

It's much easier to just use the bushing from the 250 parts, I managed to get away without modifying any bushings, but I also had a number of other bushing on hand.

[knobbyboy]

10-4 rip_tear. thanks for the heads up. hopefully I can also piece it together bewteen all these parts. I'll do pics when it happens.

[atvmxr]

ok I ordered a 450r linkage and its about an inch wide. and the 250r linkage is 3" wide where it mounts to the frame. Im not understanding how the swingarm bushings will help...

Im assuming I will have to either get a 250r rear shock custom built for this or a remote ressie 450r shock, again custom setup... as usually the 450r shock is 17", but top of page 5 said using 18" lenght shock...

:)

[Rip_Tear]

For some reason I thought I used the 250R swingarm bushing up front on the linkage because it was almost perfect for that space. I could be wrong though and maybe I used another bushing in the end. I am really sorry I can't provide greater detail. I just moved and my quads are still at my parents house, when I get them here I'll check out what I did if you guys still need info. Basically I know I switched around a bunch of bushing to make things work, I had a few random bushing around, as well as 400ex, 250R, 450R and other bushings around.

[eddie pettengil]

This is with a 2005 450R swingarm, linkage and shock installed on 1986 250R frame.

1- Remove the 450r swingarm bushing and install your 250r swingarm bushing. Done, install the swingarm on the quad. You might want to put some type of spacer between the inside of the swingarm and motor mount (on both sides).

2- Remove the 450R bushing from the linkage that connects to the frame.

3- Remove the bushing from the 250R dogbone (where it connects to the 250r swingarm) and install that bushing in the 450r linkage that connects to the frame.

4- Take the bolt from the 250r linkage (that connects to the frame) and use it to connect your 450R linkage to the 250R frame. You might want to use some spacers to keep it centered. You might need to grind a little bit of the mount on the frame to have linkage clear.

That is as far as I have got with mine. Still looking for the options on using the 450r shock. good luck.

[DEERCHOOPER]

just to let you guys know. the 04-05 450 swingers are 3/4" shorter than the 06 and up 450. ive read most of this post and didnt see anybody say that. most 04-05 450 owners switch out for the longer 06 and up swinger, but you have to use the link and dog bone for that year swinger.

just thought i would let ya know

[2muchquad]

its looks to me that the stock 450r shock will not work. the rezzy is in the way of my exhaust pipe. anybody else try this.

It depends on the pipe,when i have my lrd pipe on,i have to use the 250r shock,with my pt mx pipe im using now,i have a 450r shock on,it'll clear the exhaust stinger:) Like everybody else,im always looking for new ideas..

[knobbyboy]

hey guys, got this thing started and here are the issues/ questions I got-

chain guide alignment- looks like the slider will need to be shimmed over toward the frame tube a bit.

brake mounting bolt- the forward bolt is very near the swing arm. I also read something about shimming the brake over??

frame mount for link- I will post pics of this area. I am using all 04/05 450R parts- linkage and swing arm. The problem is that it seems the link needs to drop down lower in order to bolt up the shock. Anybody else ran into this? Did you just cut away some material from the frame mount area? I don't have a 450R to look at so please tell me if I am putting the whole linkage together backwards. I got it all in parts so I really do not know how it is suppose to go. I shimmed the mounting point with some old 6203 front wheel bearings, which fit perfectly. I also changed bushing all around between the 250R and 450R parts to make everything cool with OD's and ID's.

Pics to follow- any and all helpful feedback welcome. This is as far as I got so far...

[knobbyboy]

pics

[knobbyboy]

pic2

[knobbyboy]

pics

[DEERCHOOPER]

shock goes to the 2nd bolt in, dog bone goes to the 1st.



looks a little short with the dog bone to link

[knobbyboy]

So do I at least have the link going in the correct position?

[eddie pettengil]

i think it is correct, thats how i set mine up. I did have to grind the frame in the area your talking about.

[DEERCHOOPER]

i own a 450r, you got it right.

[knobbyboy]

ok, I think if grind that out a little and let the link drop down it will bolt up...

THANKS

[knobbyboy]

Hey guys.

Well... this ain't working out.

I got the 04/05 450R swing arm and 04/05 450R OEM linkage bolted up-

The rear end was WAY high in the air, like 3" higher than stock, this was with the preload rings run all the way loose. And even worse than this- if you lift the rear end off the ground, as would happen when you jump something, the wheels would drop way down, too far to ride correctly and it seemed it would damage something letting the rear end drop like that.

So I bolted up the stock 86 OEM linkage with the 04/05 swing arm- it looks just like the pics on page one, it bolts up. But I agree with the guy around the middle pages there someplace- the rear end totally binds up mid stroke and its stiff. It feels really weird.

So what's the deal?

Is anyone out there actually running what I am trying to put together here?

[DEERCHOOPER]

does the swinger it self bind up, with no shock hooked to it?

[knobbyboy]

No, the binding seems related to the 250R linkage.

It moves freely without anything attached.

It moved freely, smooth and soft with the 450R linkage, but the geometry was Sooo far off, I mean not even close to working. The rear end was a mile high. I am wondering about changing out to the 06-08 connecting link- I assume it is about 1" longer. That would perhaps let the rear ride height drop back down to normal.

I am not buying a $200-$400 aftermarket link.

Can you confirm the 450R year model linkage differences?

Are the 450R dog bones on the different year models different or just the link?

If the 06 link can't fix it I'll have a load of 450R parts for sale for cheap - LOL.

[DEERCHOOPER]

i have a 04-05, i know there diff from the 06- up.


most 04-05 guys switch to the 06 and up swinger for the added length, i not 100% sure, but i do beleave they have to switch all with the swap dog bone and link

[knobbyboy]

I am now checking into some OEM 400EX linkage, appears to be much longer so should drop the rear end down. Tons of them on ebay for like $5. I'll let y'all know what I learn.

[knobbyboy]

I have emailed GTT for some advice...

[knobbyboy]

Well guys, I have emailed and talked to a lot of people and I can't see how this will work without either a high $$ linkage set up, a custom shock or both. The 250R linkage binds up in the middle of the stroke. The 250R shock is just too long to work with the 450R linkage as is. I tried this with the 04/05 parts. Maybe the 06 + parts would work better. Anyway, if someone else wants to try this I have everything (swing arm, linkage, skid plate, carrier, etc.) listed on ebay and I will combine shipping. Over and out on this one.

[atvmxr]

link?


quitter... :)

[knobbyboy]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270321902664&sspagename=STRK%3AMESELX%3AIT&viewitem=

check the "other items" to see the rest of it.

its all top quality!

[turbo69bird]

Will this mod work on a 89 I keep breaking the stock 89 swing arms. Was gonna bite the bullet and buy aftermarket or put a 86 arm on it.

What do you think

[brandonpeake]

i was curious if it was for just the 86-7 or 88-9 too

I know someone with an arsfx swinger and linkage but i dont know whxih frame or year of frame,
and does it matter if its a stock frame or laeger arens etc b/c most aftermarket use 88 or 89 style frames

[brandonpeake]

i was curious if it was for just the 86-7 or 88-9 too

I know someone with an arsfx swinger and linkage but i dont know whxih frame or year of frame,
and does it matter if its a stock frame or laeger arens etc b/c most aftermarket use 88 or 89 style frames

[jhtrx250r]

If any of you want the correct swing arm I have 2 86-87 swingarms in great shape.
they bolt up, with no mods and work correctly.
They are for sale!

[Honda 250r 001]

i just dont see how the linkage could bind up. unless the dog bone and the u shaped piece bolted to the frame were pulled apart so far that the linkage was in a straight line. I am looking in to trying this. Does the 450r linkage work well? hows the travel? is the suspension really stiff or does it make is softer? or is it about the same. what about ride heigth? any higher lower? i am hopin to raise the ride heigth.

[Derrick Adams]

Seems to me like too many people are too eager to just jump on the band wagon without doing any research. For instance, no where in here did I see anyone state the swingarm pivot to upper shock mount measurements of the two machines. Is it the same?
I also didnt see anyone say anything about comparing shock lengths. Has anyone realized that the 06-up shock is 1" longer than the 04-05? That's to match the newer linkage and longer swinger on the 06-up (which was a design change to eliminate bucking).
Has anyone covered the fact that most of the linkage and shock bolts are different diameters? Without bushings or drilling out hardened collars, this mod is not possible.

Here is the main question people need to be asking. What year 450R shock is the closest in length to the 250R? And what is the location of the top shock mount to the swingarm pivot compared to the 450R.

My guess is that you will either need to use the correct 04-05 450R shock with the 04-05 linkage and swinger OR use the 06-up swinger and linkage with the 250R shock or 06-up 450R shock.

Using the 06-up swinger will likely not gain you any performance upgrade other than unsprung weight reduction.

I know there is currently R&D being done on making the correct bushing installation kit to do this swap. With all the correct bolts, spacers, and bushings to do it right.

[jhtrx250r]

Derrick Adams is on the right track,
I own a 1988,&1986 trx 250r a400ex and a 450r (05)
none of these swing arms use the same geometry or shocks ( with the exception of the 86&88 those shocks are difrent but will fit)
the 400ex and 450r shocks are a difrent legnth, the linkages on the 400/450r are close to each other with small legnth difrences but compleatly difent from 250r rear linkages.
this conversion will not work properly (you can hack any thing togher and make it fit if you realy want to that dosent mean it is a good or safe conversion.
Hell I evan saw a guy run a banshee shock on the rear of his 250r honda to a +6 LT 250r swingarm, would you call that a accepable conversion.
When a part is built for you bike safety and planing is involved , not what ever is cheepest or you can find easly on ebay.

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams

I know there is currently R&D being done on making the correct bushing installation kit to do this swap. With all the correct bolts, spacers, and bushings to do it right.

Any chance you'd care to share by who?

[knobbyboy]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
Seems to me like too many people are too eager to just jump on the band wagon without doing any research. For instance, no where in here did I see anyone state the swingarm pivot to upper shock mount measurements of the two machines. Is it the same?
I also didnt see anyone say anything about comparing shock lengths. Has anyone realized that the 06-up shock is 1" longer than the 04-05? That's to match the newer linkage and longer swinger on the 06-up (which was a design change to eliminate bucking).
Has anyone covered the fact that most of the linkage and shock bolts are different diameters? Without bushings or drilling out hardened collars, this mod is not possible.

Here is the main question people need to be asking. What year 450R shock is the closest in length to the 250R? And what is the location of the top shock mount to the swingarm pivot compared to the 450R.

My guess is that you will either need to use the correct 04-05 450R shock with the 04-05 linkage and swinger OR use the 06-up swinger and linkage with the 250R shock or 06-up 450R shock.

Using the 06-up swinger will likely not gain you any performance upgrade other than unsprung weight reduction.

I know there is currently R&D being done on making the correct bushing installation kit to do this swap. With all the correct bolts, spacers, and bushings to do it right.

You are correct. I got the parts and went at it thinking that all these guys actually had this working. I found several issues with it and gave up- not wanting to spend more money. In the end I could only find one guy running it and he used a custom Elka shock and all Elka linkage parts. I learned a leason, no big deal. But next time I will investigate more before "jumping in" as you say. :) A friend of mine just switching to an aftermarker swing arm with a full kit and instructions, it was still difficult to install and get working properly. Its not like hanging some plastic, it has to be on the money or it'll break.

[Rizn]

Wow whats with all the crying, you have to make mistakes to move forward, and you cant ask big company's, they just want you to buy there HELLA expensive products, some one should try the 06 and newer 450r swing arm. HOW DO U KNOW UNLESS U TRY, WAIT FOR SOME BIG NAMES TO COME OUT WITH CONVERSION KITS, ha they have a profit to maintain ATM

[Rizn]

Is the diameter the same 06 450r steering stem, and a 250r aftermarket, u cant use below 06 because the tie rod mounts defer, what else am I missing

[Dubs_Tech]

So who has actually performed this "upgrade" and is running it successfully? Anyone put it to the test?

[scottsworld]

this does not work i tried it and the rear end sat higher and was very stiff i would not do it

[Honda 250r 001]

what linkage did you use?

[Dubs_Tech]

Yeah some solid information would be greatly appreciated. Id like to do this on my 87' to lighten it up, as its only used for the dunes.

[scottsworld]

i just used the stock link and shock

[scottsworld]

i just used the stock link and shock

[Dubs_Tech]

what made it so stiff and high? alignment issues?

[scottsworld]

the swing arm has a different pick up point were the link bolts to it

[Dubs_Tech]

so theres no truth behind this mod

[Rip_Tear]

Saying there is no truth behind this mod is very far from the truth.

I have mine all bolted up with the 450R swing arm and linkage, I did need to use different bushing but I had them to use from other builds. I however haven't ridden with this set up since I have been unable to complete my build. I am sure that with some degree of shock adjustment, whether it be a total rebuild or just adjustments this mod would be fine.

Also it really depends on what you are looking to gain from this mod, I however am happy with it, even if I end up having to totally rebuild the shock to make it work. I also do plan to convert my whole 250R into a 450R frame though, so this way gets me parts without having to get everything all at once.

[Honda 250r 001]

THIS WILL WORK. BUT YOU NEED A DURABLUE ADJUSTIBLE DOGBONE. No matter what linkage you use,l i would not even try to do this without an adjustible one. Because it would be luck to get the suspension geometry correct without any adjusting.

[Dubs_Tech]

Thats what i was thinking but how reliable are those for jumping, whoops etc?

[Honda 250r 001]

the dogbones will last all the abuse you can give them. Durablue told me i could use it as if it were a stock one.

[Buttermilk]

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P1030054.jpg

This 250R has a 400EX swingarm on it. It uses a Durablue adjustable dogbone.

Works pretty good. Rides is a bit firmer. But works.

Also has YFZ450 shocks on it as well.

[Honda 250r 001]

got any better pics of the swinger on that?

[Dubs_Tech]

Why would it ride firmer? Im assuming the 450r would be a better choice for weight savings though?

[Honda 250r 001]

it would be firmer because the leverage ratios would be changed slightly. And absolutly the 450r swinger is lighter than the 400ex, but the 400ex swinger is still lighter than the stock steel 250r one, and its shorter i believe so it would handle better.

[Buttermilk]

The 400EX swingarm is the exact same length as the 04/05 450R swingarm. Don't know about the weight of the above two, but should be virtually the same.

Both are lighter than the 250R '87 swingarm. I switched mine because we were running a -3 (over '87 length) for TT/Flattrack, and now we don't need the -3 length.

The 400 EX swingarm is right at the same length as the '88-'89 250R length.

The linkage mounting point on the 400EX/450R swingarm is 1" farther back and changes the geometry. That's the reason it rides firmer. Don't have as much leverage on the shock now.

Don't have any better pic's right now. Maybe later....

Regards,

Rog

[XXX250R]

ok, i have an 86 frame and a 05 450r swinger. can someone make a list of what actually fits and works? linkage set up, axle, carrier, shock, etc... thanks

[quadfmx]

for the part ive read of people with the mod working was going with aftermarket shocks and links, giving them a place to mount a remote rezzie, preventing it from hitting the exhaust.
But like someone else posted has anyone tried a GT Thunder link and 450R revalved shock for the 250 instead of the stock 450 shock untouched?
depending on which link no matter on company most have a MX and a XC link to change ride height etc and if you get the revalved shock to match the link,
I think that is the prob with alot of the problems is just taking it from a 450R and trying to bolt it strait up,
For example you can fit 450R front shocks on a 250 but they dont work great but if they are revalved etc ive heard alot better results

[RMI_Speed]

not sure if anyone posted a success yet didn't want to read all of them but i am currently running a stock 400ex swingarm on my 86 using the stock 400ex linkage with a 250r link rear shock. it'd be better if i had an aftermarket rear 400ex shock just for the mounting on the bottom to the linkage but i made mine work. i have been running it for 3 years now and have never broke anything. it runs good over the mougals lands very smooth on jumps or even when you come up short. doesn't sit to high or sit to low sits about the same as the 250r stock. i had to do some fabing just to make spacers for the linkage to bolt to the frame and change spacers where the shock bolts to the linkage due to the bigger diameter bolt. i did this conversion off a wim becuase i did not want to buy a new R swingarm for 300 bucks. i am currently running one on my R and on my 426 hybrid R and both are working great if any one wants pics let me know.

[upinsmoke]

I have 86 250 r and i used 04-05 450r complete swingarm and axle with 86 linkage with randome bushing 450r dogbone bolt a white bros 250r shock (witch is the same lenght as stock and needs a rebuild) worked good for me at glamis with it just bolted on soon as i get my shock rebuilt and a durablue dogbone im sure it will be way better that just my 2 cent"s

[quadfmx]

will the 450R shock not work on this setup ive heard of aftermarket shocks working on aftermarket swingarms but it seems most people are using a 250r shock

[ballzdeep38]

ok guys i decided to give this another shot before i sell off my 450r stuff. i managed to get the swingarm mounted, shock and 450r linkage are mounted as well. i made a space for the 250r bearing carrier, slid it and the axle through. i have now run into 2 problems.

the 250R brake stay (or caliper mount) is far from a fit it looks like. the bolt holes are too close to the swingarm. the bolts rest on the swingarm when you try to slide them through. and if you get both through, there is pretty much NO chain adjustment. how did you guys that are running this get by this? did you have to use the 450 brake stay?

also it looks like my spacer for the carrier is a little too big. when i get the brake stay on and snap on the ring the carrier wont rotate (to adjust the chain). if i take the clid off it works fine. so it look like i need to work on the spacer.

can someone give me some insight on the the brake stay situation? once that is tackled i should be abe to reassemble the rest and test it out.

[Rip_Tear]

I never figured out what to do with the brake, my best idea was to switch that over to the 450 parts as well, caliper mount, disc and brake caliper.

Not sure what your second problem was I didn't have a problem being able to adjust the chain tension, then again I never got to finish mine (it's still sitting in parts) moving kind of killed my project for the time being.

Figuring out the brake part shouldn't be a big problem though, honestly you could test it out without the brake (provided you feel safe doing it).

Although from what I got to feel with my set up it was better then how it was set up. My future plan is to just switch the 250R into a 450R frame, parts are easier to come by, no idea how it will work out, but I'll let you guys know if I ever get there...

[ballzdeep38]

ok guys i finished up the swingarm swap. i took it out for a ride on the street and everything worked fine so far. i have 2 riding trips planned in february so i can give some more updates after those trips. since alot of the info seems kinda scattered i will try and give the run down as best i can for anyone still interested in trying this. i will say that if you dont have access to a machine shop or someone who can make a few custom parts you will have a really hard time. with that said here it goes. i should also note this is a 04-05 swingarm, linkage, skid plate, and dog bone.

this stuff came from the original poster:

"you have to use the inner front tubes from the 86-87 as the 450R ones stick inwards about an extra half inch on each side. 450r bearings worked fine." - this is what i did and it worked exactly as described.

"the dog bone mount for the swinger is about 2 mm to narrow. i fixed this by filing it by hand." - i did this originally when trying to use the stock linkage and dog bone. that was unsuccessful. now i am using the 450r dog bone and linkage so the filing was unneccessary. now there is a slight bit of play, not sure yet if this wil be a big issue or not.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b347/ballzdeep38/450r%20swingarm/250R-7.jpg

"you will need the dog bone bolt for the 450R arm" - i used the 450r bolts for the dog bone/swingarm, dog bone/linkage, and lower shock mount. (this is where you may need a machine shop) the lower shock mount bolt from the 450 is a smaller diameter than the 250r's. so i had 2 collars made for the shock that would take up the slack and allow me to use the 450r bolt without any issues. sorry i dont have a better pic of the collars.

"a 450R carrier is recomended. not nesasary but recomended. if you use the 250r carrier there will be about a 1/8 inch gap on each side when its centered. once u get it bolted in and the carrier bolts tite i dont think it would move. i made a shim for each side just in case but after being on it i really dont think they are necesary." - I used my Lonestar 250r carrier. (machine shop) i had a spacer made (i think it was 1/8") to go on the right side of the swingarm. this piece was key for a couple reasons.
1: it takes up the space and will prevent the carrier from moving.
2: without it, the 2 bolts that attatch the caliper to the brake stay are too close to the swingarm and dont allow any chain adjustment. the spacer fixes that problem, and allows everything to bolt up and function correctly. the chain looks to be really close to centered on the sprocket but i will find out once i ride it. in the picture you can see the spacer between the swingarm and brake stay.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b347/ballzdeep38/450r%20swingarm/250R-9.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b347/ballzdeep38/450r%20swingarm/250R-2.jpg

"the little spacer that goes in the slide for the brake stay bracket should come from the 450R also. the 250r one will work but there is no flange to keep it on and the 450r arm has no retainer clip grove. i stuck on the 250r one the very slightly mushroomed the pin. seems to work good." - used the one off the 250r. once everything is bolted together it doesnt seem like it is going anywhere. i didnt mushroom it. just slipped it one and the brake stay should hold it on. you cant really see it in this picture but it shows the brake side of the swingarm.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b347/ballzdeep38/450r%20swingarm/250R-4.jpg

the front of the linkage needs a sleeve to slide the bolt through to hold it to the frame. the sleeves you took out of the front of the 450r swingarm are the right inner and outer diameters, but it is too long. i used a bench grinder to shorten it up and bolted it up. this will need to be kept clean and watched close IMO.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b347/ballzdeep38/450r%20swingarm/250R-5.jpg

since i used the 450r swingarm, linkage, and dogbone, i was able to used the stock skidplate with no problems. the chain guide had to be notched to clear the sprocket.

other than those obstacles, everything went together fairly easily. if anyone has any more questions go ahead and ask before i forget what i did lol.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b347/ballzdeep38/450r%20swingarm/250R-1.jpg

[troybilt]

Great write-up BTW!!!!!!

Does this work the same for an 86 ATC frame? I've seen this mod done several times in ATC's pics, but just want to make sure the proceedure is roughly the same before I tackle this.

[zedicus00]

Originally posted by troybilt
Great write-up BTW!!!!!!

Does this work the same for an 86 ATC frame? I've seen this mod done several times in ATC's pics, but just want to make sure the proceedure is roughly the same before I tackle this.

should be virtually identical but i would use an all 450R reaer end, axle, carrier, etc. actually if i was doing it on a TRX again i would do it that way anyways.

i had no idea this thread was still kicking around?

maybe i should apologize for dropping off the face of the earth there for a while.

[troybilt]

Yes you should! This was very good information. Where are you located in KS?

Last question, since the 06+ is longer should a guy run the 06+ on an ATC or will an 04/05 work ok, but is shorter like 88/89 length.

You can pick up an 04/05 for like 30 bucks, and the 06+ are a bit higher, 100-150 range...

[atvmxr]

rather than starting over myself with the carrier spacer and lower shock collars, any chance you could get the guy to make another set???

:)

[Honda 250r 001]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ballzdeep38


You used stock 250r shock then didnt you?

[zedicus00]

bottom left corner of kansas.

on the ATC i think i would try the longer 06 style. there should be no trouble mounting the 04-05 one but trikes take skill to ride so any little bit of extra length and width is gunna help.

i used the stock 250R shock and linkage and had no problems at all. this also saves having to make the adapter for the bottom linkage mount. it did not noticeably alter my ride height either.

[ballzdeep38]

ATVMXR - sorry i wouldnt be able to get another set made without disassembling the whole thing. i did think about it though after i was finished. the only problem is that it seems like everyone who does this swap has little differences from the last guy who did it. therefore my spacers might not work when you do it. a prime example of this was ZED being able to use the 250R linkage where i was unable too.:ermm:

HONDA - yes i used the stock 250R shock. i plan to have it rebuilt and revalved soon so that should help the ride quality alot.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by ballzdeep38


HONDA - yes i used the stock 250R shock. i plan to have it rebuilt and revalved soon so that should help the ride quality alot.

How does it feel right now? with the stock 250r shock? have you ever took the spring off hte shock and measured how much travel it provides? Im defeneatly interested in doing this swap now. Is the ride heigth changed any? IS the suspension and stiffer or softer?
Thanks

[ballzdeep38]

sadly i havent had a chance to get it out to test it since getting it together. Maybe my last post was a little confusing. The concern i have is it seems to set a little lower than i remember when i had the stock parts on it (unfortunately i didnt measure the height before the swap). with the bike sitting on the ground i can lift the grab bar up about 2 inches before the wheels come off the ground. And when i let go it seems to sag back down on its own. Not sure if this is due to the change in the swingarm etc. Or that the shock needs to be rebuilt.:confused:

[troybilt]

FYI, You want down travel... I can lift both of my quads at least 3-5in before the wheels come off of the ground, with no one on them. My 450 has more than my 250r, because of the 450r linkage and the shock is somewhat soft. Check the distance from the bottom of the frame right at the foot pegs to the ground with you sitting on it. For MX, 6-7", for XC 7.5 to 8.5" roughly, I don't remember the exact dimensions...

Down travel keeps the wheels in contact with the ground when the ground drops out like on a whoop section... etc...

[ballzdeep38]

ok thanks troy. i thought i remembered it doing the same thing before the swap too but when i look at it it seems to sit a little low in the back (which is what sparked my initial concern). however after looking at it again i realized it might be due to the 450r (stock set) shocks up front making the front sit a little high. once i get to test it out i will write up an update to give everyone a little more insight on what to expect. the only testing i have done was on the street right after i got it together. the only difference i noticed then was that front end came up a little easier which could either be due to the shorter swingarm or the difference in traction on the street...:ermm:

[quadfmx]

ive read almost everyone was usong 04/5 parts and trying to bolt them up,
is there a reason no one was using the 06,
i was going to send my 06 shock to gtt to get it setup to the link and to the ,easurements for the 250

i know u can run 450r swingers and shocks on a 250 i saw a bike built by the guy who works in the back at arsfx who is running arsfx 450r swinger and shock,

so is there a reason besides it was easily found to use the 04/5 or did they want the shorter swinger?

i got a custom laeger swinger wth ars/fx link
like borich ran on his honda im going to try to see how it fits my 87 R
ill post results

[quadfmx]

ive read almost everyone was usong 04/5 parts and trying to bolt them up,
is there a reason no one was using the 06,
i was going to send my 06 shock to gtt to get it setup to the link and to the ,easurements for the 250

i know u can run 450r swingers and shocks on a 250 i saw a bike built by the guy who works in the back at arsfx who is running arsfx 450r swinger and shock,

so is there a reason besides it was easily found to use the 04/5 or did they want the shorter swinger?

i got a custom laeger swinger wth ars/fx link
like borich ran on his honda im going to try to see how it fits my 87 R
ill post results

[jcs003]

i noticed that ballzdeep mounted the 450 linkage opposite of how it was intended. this allowed the longer 250r shock to mount.

my concern is the change in leverage ratio will not allow the shock to work correctly.

someone please correct me if i am wrong.

[JoePA]

From what I read the 06 swingarm is the same length as the 86 swingarm.

The best setup I found to work is the 04/05 swingarm using the 86 linkage but with an adjustable dogbone.

[troybilt]

Yes, the 06 is close to the same length as the 86/87 swingarm. I have an extra 450r 04/05 swingarm that I measured side by side with my 250r swingarm and the are the same length as my 89 swingarm. The linkage mount is farther back on the 450r swingarm though. I don't think it would be hard at all to design a longer linkage that works perfectly with the 250r shock..

[jcs003]

i think the 450r LSR DC-6 long travel linkage would solve the issue. it uses a 16+" shock.

[Derrick Adams]

Originally posted by JoePA
From what I read the 06 swingarm is the same length as the 86 swingarm.

The best setup I found to work is the 04/05 swingarm using the 86 linkage but with an adjustable dogbone.

I'd like to see pictures of this set up fully compressed and fully extended. I'm sure the lower shock bolt hits the swinger before full compression. Not good...

[trx293pv]

Originally posted by brandonpeake
so what about linkage and shock could u use a Gt thunder link and a 450R shock, now that would be sweet

I saw a guy do that once. he's on this forum. scott is his name

[quadfmx]

Okay to those doing this mod with 450r shock and 450r linkage
Let's start with stock shock and gtt for example
Did u measure ur 250 and tell him what u were doing as laz asks for all kinds of measurements?
I'm going to call n ask him

2 nd if u used an aftermarket link and swinger as most are made to use together as the shock is setup for the aftermerket link
Did u use it setup for the 450 or did u have the shock modified for the 250r
Bc from my reading people n the past had a gtt shock n link from where they had upgraded to something new and used the gtt stuff since they had it
I'm going to try to install my 459r laeger ars/fx link n shock on the 250
As the guy from arsfx has done this on 2 quads with all 450 parts and says it's amazing

[jcs003]

Originally posted by quadfmx
Okay to those doing this mod with 450r shock and 450r linkage
Let's start with stock shock and gtt for example
Did u measure ur 250 and tell him what u were doing as laz asks for all kinds of measurements?
I'm going to call n ask him

2 nd if u used an aftermarket link and swinger as most are made to use together as the shock is setup for the aftermerket link
Did u use it setup for the 450 or did u have the shock modified for the 250r
Bc from my reading people n the past had a gtt shock n link from where they had upgraded to something new and used the gtt stuff since they had it
I'm going to try to install my 459r laeger ars/fx link n shock on the 250
As the guy from arsfx has done this on 2 quads with all 450 parts and says it's amazing

the only way a 450 shock can be used, is if it is a remote rezzie shock. the pipe and airboot interfere.

[atvmxr]

I forgot, if you use the 450r axle/carrier/etc. does the sprocket and chain line up correctly?

[skyeryder]

trial and error is what I did, but for the most part it went together great. everything lines up pretty much perfect just remember that you have to use the metal 250r swinger sleeves in the 450 swinger. I guess also living near a really good shock builder helps also.

[Derrick Adams]

Ok. Here is one we did on my ATC250R which is similar.

Pivot bolt area parts/mods needed:

450R swingarm 06-Up
450R pivot bearings, seals, caps
250R inner collars for pivot bearings
250R swingarm bolt
250R rear engine mount

Linkage area parts/ mods needed:

450R link (06-up)
450R rear dog bone (04-05)
250R shock

**Frame mount for lower front link must be clearanced to allow linkage to pivot correctly without hitting**

*** Special collars and spacers are needed to accept the 12mm (250R) front linkage bolt and 12mm (250R) lower shock bolt with the 450R link. The 450R link originally took 10mm bolts.***

**** Use your original (12mm) 250R rear dogbone bolt and nut to bolt lower shock clevis to the 450R link. Two 1/8" spacers are needed between the shock clevis and link.****

Axle area parts/ mods needed:

250R axle (1985 wont work) or 400EX axle
450R carrier
450R rear brake hub/rotor/brake stay/ caliper, etc.
250R axle lock nut assembly

We should have collar and spacer kits available shortly to make this a bolt on deal and take the guess work out.

Hope this helps!

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l34/Derrick_Adams/85r-4.jpg

[Derrick Adams]

Just so you know that the correct ride height is achieved with this set-up.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l34/Derrick_Adams/85R-1.jpg

[Derrick Adams]

The key to doing this swap correctly is that you use the 06-up swinger and link with the 04-05 dog bone. (If your using your stock shock).

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
The key to doing this swap correctly is that you use the 06-up swinger and link with the 04-05 dog bone. (If your using your stock shock).

i just tried it with a 400ex swinger.

all that really needs to be done is:

flip-flop the linkage. opposite of the OE design.

2 bushings need to be made. these are for the shock clevis. it allows the gap to be filled and for the smaller 400ex bolt to work.

also, from what a friend told me...the 04-05 450r swinger is nearly identical to a 400ex swingarm.

[Derrick Adams]

400EX swingarm doesnt allow the use of the rear motor mount on the 86-87 does it?

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
400EX swingarm doesnt allow the use of the rear motor mount on the 86-87 does it?

it works. there is just a 3/16" gap on the chain side where the motor mount bracket and the swingarm meet at the pivot point.

[Derrick Adams]

I gotcha. I guess I should have looked.. lol

[jcs003]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
I gotcha. I guess I should have looked.. lol

there is no binding, clearance issues or anything. it did everything i could to disrupt thr travel, with the exception of taking it out for a ride.

[quadfmx]

to those running aftermarket links and 450r aftermarket remote rez shocks, id u have the shock revalved or se setup for the 250R from the 450 or did you just bolt it up and go with it?

And if you use a stock 250R shock i would def recommend getting it freshened up,personally to e changing to an upgraded shock and the 450 linkage ( aftermarket) was the best part of this mod,
if you disagree thats fine but to me getting that performance on the 250 for the price you could buying some used 04 450r parts would be great to me,

can we hear from anyone using 450R non oem link and shock , what link are u running and how are u liking it
anyone tried a non oem 450r swingarm?
just curious,
ive heard of people doing it, would like to hear some first hand ride accounts of it

[ballzdeep38]

Just to give a little update on my setup and how it worked.

I used the 04-05 swing arm, linkage and dogbone. I used the stock 250R shock (you can read the previous pages for more on how the installation went).

I FINALLY gotthe bike out to get a little light riding in. location was Barstow Ca. (hard pack desert trails with lots a good amount of "rolling whoops"). i took 2 seperate trail rides for about 45 min each, so not a whole lot of seat time but this is what i noticed in that time:

The front end felt a little lighter when hitting the whoops. This was expected with the shorter swingarm but i felt it had to be mentioned.

I didnt rebuild the shock and it is far past its time so the shock action felt pretty similar to how it felt with the stock swing arm and linkage. I thought this was great. i was worried that the rear suspension would "bind up" through the travel with the 450 parts but i didnt notice it at all. HOWEVER this was just trail riding, not MX and no jumps, so i cant speak for the full length of the travel. with that said i dont think it will be a problem.

overall i would say the swap was a success. I got the pros of the alum. 89 swing arm and got some parts powder coated in the process for MUCH cheaper than going aftermarket.

How has everyone else who has done the swap liked it so far???

[J250r]

I did the swap using an 04 swing arm and linkage and 86 250r shock. I can't tell for sure as I forgot to measure but it seems that the rear end sits SLIGHTLY higher. I've only ridden it one time and took it over a very small jump but I couldn't tell any issues at all. The shock travel seems fine, I didn't notice any binding issues. I got my setup for 40 bucks shipped, so all in all I'm very happy with it.

[quadfmx]

Ballzdeep
I'm wantingbtonuse an aftermarket linkage,
I've read u can. Use a 450r rear non oem but the oem Rez gets in the way,

I got an 06 stock swinger and stock dog bone sitting in the shop , that would take away that feeling u got from the 04/05 as the 06 is a plus 1
I haven't decided which way I want to go on swinger year but if I do it I wanna run a gt link and I got a pep stock length rearvshock, needs serv etc but I need a measurement eye to eye on 04/5 and 06 450 rear shocks to see if my pep is the same length if it is I'll get laz to re work it and use it and try it before I buy an aftermarket 450 shock to try,

What I'd like to know is all replacement framesvare 88 style,
This mod title isb86/7
I wonder how it d work on a STD aftermarket frame

[ballzdeep38]

QuadFMX

Ive heard that an aftermarket linkage will work as well but i cant confirm it. An adjustable linkage seems like an ideal solution if you wanted to be able to compensate for the change in geometry. I saw someone else on here who had an Elka dual rate (i think) remote res. rear shock and a long travel linkage that was very happy with his setup. I would probably have taken a similar route had i had that kind of money to commit to the project. I was looking for a budget upgrade, otherwise i would have just bought an aftermarket 86/87 swingarm and been done in an afternoon.
I was actually looking to make the front end feel lighter. i do more trail riding with a few trips to the track here and there, so i figured it would work better than the stock 87 length.

I have also heard that the stock 450r shock doesnt fit well because of the attatched resivor. and aftermarket shock with a remote res. would probably work just fine if the length of the shock fit. come to think of it, the rear end on my quad seems to sit a little lower after the swap so a slightly longer shock may help (thats just a guess btw). Or maybe when i have the rear rebuilt it will help that situation.

Im not sure what you mean by a STD frame. if you are thinking of an 88/89 style frame it would take bit more work. I believe you would need to do some welding to make the mounting point between the frame and the swing arm work. although i wouldnt see much benefit for most. the idea behind this swap is to gain the pros of the Stock 88/89 swingarm (aluminum vs steel, and the -1" length to help handling) without having to go aftermarket. what makes it work is the fact that the 450r uses the same mounting style as the 86/87. for an 88/89 frame most would probably stick to the stocker, and if they wanted/needed a longer swingarm for duning/ dragging i would assume they would need more than a +1 (like the 06 450R swing arm).

[ballzdeep38]

J250R

Im curious about your quad sitting a little higher after the swap. mine seems to sit a little lower (although i didnt measure it before). would you mind taking a measurement for me to compare mine too (maybe at the grab bar mounting point) as well as the tire size you are running? also if you had a pic or two of your setup i would like to see it as well.

[J250r]

I got a chance to measure it today, 29 1/4 inches from the grab bar mount to the ground. I didn't get a chance to take a new picture but I do have this one from the day I put it together.


http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/Uuhnt/new.jpg

[ballzdeep38]

thanks for the measurements. what size rear tire are you running?

[ballzdeep38]

i just measured mine and it is at ~26" at the middle of the bolt for the grab bar. that is with a 20" tire.

[J250r]

Also running a 20" tire, but I guess I measured from the top of the bolt which would put me at about 28 or 29. Interesting... I think I need to get an adjustable link. I rode it again today and it felt fine

[quadfmx]

Ballzdeep
I know it's a long time since the last post
But I was wanting to put an 04 450r swing arm on an 87 frame.
My question was why not use a gt thunder linkage and have the 250 shock re worked to work with the gtt setup
Or use a a450r rear shock with a remote Rez or an aftermarket 250r rear shock setup to use the gtt link, since the attached Rez was why the stock 450r shock wont work

Has anyone tried with any rear link besides the stock 450 one

[ballzdeep38]

Somewhere early on in my research, maybe even in this post somewhere, i saw a picture of someone running the 450r swingarm with what i think was a long travel Elka shock (not sure if it was for a 250 or 450) and a long travel linkage (also Elka I believe). So im sure it can be done, and it would probably work well if you are going to have a shock set up specifically for that set up.

My decision to run the stock shock and linkage was financially driven. I figured if i was going to go for an aftermarket shock and linkage, I might as well start looking into an aftermarket 250R swingarm and aftermarket 250R shock. The installation would be easier with the 250r stuff as opposed to trying to make the 450 stuff work.

[hartwill]

I have an r with a 450r swing ARM and elka shock, but I think its stock linkage. I'm not sure because I don't have much experience with 450Rs. I can snap a pic if you'd like.

[quadfmx]

Well i got all the 405R parts, Id just need the shock revalved I assume, from an old bike, I keep saying Im going to try it but never seem to find the time?


on side bar anyone hear of running stock frame and swingarm wit banshee shock as a no link, Ive found info on it but not much

[JoePA]

Best way to make that setup work is run the 450R swingarm, 250R shock, 250R linkage with an adjustable dogbone. Easiest and cheapest way to do it.

[ballzdeep38]

Anyone see the 450r swingarm "conversion kit" on Ebay that is going for $750? I dont know about anyone else but even with powder coating the hubs and axle im no where near $750...

[hartwill]

I have a complete bolt on 450r setup with all required billet aluminum spacers, linkage, swing arm, g force axle, hubs, and elka dual rate shock, and brake for $700 shipped if anyone is interested.

[quadfmx]

anyway to use stock 450R shock, or is the rez in the way

[redrider419]

Could someone post a comparison picture of the 86 250r linkage and dogbone next to an 06 450r set

[markk]

Ok guys I started my build about four years ago after buying just and 87 frame,,, im starting to assemble my mock build as I thought I had all the parts I needed.. derik adams I would like a little advice from you man, not reading all 19 pages until tonight I had purchased an 87 oem completed linkage/bone and shock, and an 04/05 trx450r swinger.. and a completed oem 04/05 trx450r linkage/bone.


last night I tried to mount up the 87 suspension parts into my 450r swinger. With no luck the linkage sits way to level and after I wedged the shock into place the travel wasn't correct. befor I spend more time looking and building bushings or buying kits to use only pieces I just want to make sure that your telling me.......... that I have to use the 06+ trx450r linkage system (installed the proper way front-back) and swinger with my 87 rear shock and then have my shock built for the setup.

also has anyone even droped there machine 1.5" from the ground and gotten there compressed lengths of their shocks? and has anyone lifted the machine to see if the extended lengths of both the front and back shock bodys will work togeather?? (example say your frame is 13.5 inches off the ground and at that point your ball joints or tie rod ends start to bind? so you setup at 13" and everything in the front end is smooth and correct. does the 87 rear shock still have the length to keep your rear tires on the ground still?


any info would be awesome guys!!

[markk]

Could someone post a comparison picture of the 86 250r linkage and dogbone next to an 06 450r set


I will get one up tomorrow around 5pm eastern time!

[markk]

here is an 87 link vs an 06 and then an 06 vs an 05 the 06 has mk in black sharpie on it.

17181065791718106580171810658117181065821718106583

[bnau267]

I didn't really see this referenced during the thread...
04/13 450R > Stock swingarm length is 2004-'5 18.5", 2006-'13 19"
86/87 250R > Stock swingarm length is 19.5"
88/89 250R > Stock swingarm length is 18.5"

[markk]

thanks for the info man-

[bnau267]

No problem. Got a complete 06 rear end coming my way. Probably not work the effort but I'm gonna try this so I can run some more up to date components. Seems that the only way to really get this right would be to modify the locations of upper shock mount and lower linkage mount on the stock R frame. Guess we will see....

[markk]

i got my rear end put together with 05 swinger 05 rear link and a 400ex GT thunder XC linkage/ moded only my frame/link mount with a slight little bit of grinding. and the rear end came together so I could run a 15.25" rear shock..... (same size as 06+trx shock.) but an oem shock wont fit with the rezzie in the way. also centered my front link with some spacers cut down. and im running an 86/87 rear swinger motor mounts with the 86/87 spacer sleaves and the rest of the trx450r swingarm kit in place on the swinger. just gota finish up some other parts and drop it down and get my compressed lengths before I have my shocks built.



in the linkage I used the sleeves out of the trx250r linkage and installed them into the 400ex linkage so I could still run the 250r bolts threw the frame.... also seems as if the 450r swingarm bolt will work--- but the 250r bolt is just a little shorter and looks a little cleaner as it doesn't stick threw the frame near as far.

[redrider419]

here is an 87 link vs an 06 and then an 06 vs an 05 the 06 has mk in black sharpie on it.

17181065791718106580171810658117181065821718106583

Thank you!!!

Not sure if I've posted this or not but here is a video of my '86 framed R with the 450r swingarm and brake conversion. The rear shock is a stock 250r shock i believe an '87 its never been redone so its very soft. Other than that it seemed to work pretty well.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/90afTa9wI1U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[sdxp787]

Some time has passed. Can someone summarize what did and what did not work? I just purchased an 86 TRX250R and want to do this to mine.