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Groves187
06-01-2007, 10:57 PM
So i was watching the video about the epic racing DS450 and it looks to me that they just lost everything that they worked so hard to gain, Going back to Chromoly a-arms and a swinger (they said they were switching back to the stock one).. SO what was the point in doing all this R&D and trying to make it the best on the market if you have the take off half the parts they put all the time and R&D into to make it a competative machine??? What do you guys think???

OutlawBill
06-02-2007, 06:45 AM
Too bad it is EPIC parts.

ThePhantomRider
06-02-2007, 06:56 AM
Dude, give it a rest already.


TPR

Groves187
06-02-2007, 07:09 AM
I'm not trying to bash it in anyway, Sorry if it came off this way. It looks to be a great Quad and cant wait to get a little seat time on one my self. what i was trying to get at is that wont this quad be about the same as all the others with the chromoly a-arms and what not, So all the unsprung wait they just saved is just added back on with the Chromoly a-amrs and what not.

soonerlightning
06-02-2007, 08:38 AM
not only is the unsprung weight added back to it. That adds to the overall weight of the quad. With these heavier parts this thing will be the heaviest 450 around. I think that its a cool quad and wouldnt worry about changing all that out (I dont race). I will have to check them out as soon as they hit the show room floor.

Fred55
06-02-2007, 08:47 AM
Can you please explain to me how it will be the heaviest one around? If it starts out lighter than the others and all the same parts are added, how is it heavier?

TWISTED DINLI
06-02-2007, 09:54 AM
I think the quad looks really good. i cant wait to see how it does in motocross.

It won't be any heavier than the other 450's because by the time you put a-arms on the DS then on another 450 the DS will still be lighter because it was lighter stock. And anyways they said they will be using the stock swinger for racing.

Screven_Rida
06-02-2007, 10:08 AM
All of the other 450's still have steel arms, and steel axles. On the Ds you are going to be replacing the lighter aluminum parts with heavier parts. It's not going to be the heaviest, but not going to be the lightest anymore.
And what does that matter that will only come into effect for the Mx guys.

coryatver
06-02-2007, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Groves187
So i was watching the video about the epic racing DS450 and it looks to me that they just lost everything that they worked so hard to gain, Going back to Chromoly a-arms and a swinger (they said they were switching back to the stock one).. SO what was the point in doing all this R&D and trying to make it the best on the market if you have the take off half the parts they put all the time and R&D into to make it a competative machine??? What do you guys think???

I was thinking the exact thing when I watched that. They replaced all those trick parts they were bragging about with aftermarket

khj
06-02-2007, 11:09 AM
everybody needs to slow down a little bit

they just started testing with aftermarket a-arms
the epic racing 50" bike is in "test" phase that bike is not ready to be raced yet it is an experiment

Jeremy thinks the bike handles and corners as well at 46" (stock) as most 50" (race) bikes

as far as weight
on a race bike typically add weight by extending the a-arms and then gain that advantage back by removing parts you do not need (lights, electric start, controls, etc.)

but a good rule of thumb is that if you start with less weight then you end up with less weight



did anybody notice how long the stock a-arms are ? (at 46")
the mounting points for the a-arms is really moved in close to the center of the bike

Slip_Venom
06-02-2007, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Fred55
Can you please explain to me how it will be the heaviest one around? If it starts out lighter than the others and all the same parts are added, how is it heavier?

Good Point!!!!!

One_Bad_400
06-02-2007, 10:29 PM
EPIC video?!! where?

ThePhantomRider
06-02-2007, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Groves187
I'm not trying to bash it in anyway, Sorry if it came off this way. It looks to be a great Quad and cant wait to get a little seat time on one my self. what i was trying to get at is that wont this quad be about the same as all the others with the chromoly a-arms and what not, So all the unsprung wait they just saved is just added back on with the Chromoly a-amrs and what not.

No it wasn't aimed at you...sorry for the confusion.

TPR

OutlawBill
06-03-2007, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Dude, give it a rest already.


TPR

Why Epic is still makeing junk

ThePhantomRider
06-03-2007, 09:40 AM
This comming from a guy that has 2 Outlaws....Yes, you sure know how to judge quality.


TPR

OutlawBill
06-03-2007, 10:05 AM
the Outlaws lasted longer than the Epic products that I did have on my DS and did not require to be modified so they would fit the quad they were built for.

Slip_Venom
06-03-2007, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
This comming from a guy that has 2 Outlaws....Yes, you sure know how to judge quality.


TPR

He has quite a point dude.

TWISTED DINLI
06-03-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Slip_Venom
He has quite a point dude.

YEEEUUUUPP

Ryan
06-03-2007, 02:12 PM
Your always gonna see professionals and others running tons of aftermarket parts. Its called sponsership. Whether its 50" wide or not.

And as far as weight goes, until all the 450's are weighed on a scale, with or without fluids, then judgements can be made.

Damn, this thing isn't even offically out yet. Maybe its not all the hype they make it seem to be..... Maybe it is. Who has road one? :o

ThePhantomRider
06-04-2007, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by OutlawBill
the Outlaws lasted longer than the Epic products that I did have on my DS and did not require to be modified so they would fit the quad they were built for.

And if you had mentioned that the springs you were using were much larger than the springs 95 percent of people use to them when they built the stuff they could have allowed the proper clearence.

Instead you continue to be the only one to ever have this problem to this day.

Good thing KTM gave them a decent engine to work with...since they are using a rear IRS that was derived from the Tripple E Banshee IRS setup that came out in the early 90's.

TPR

CannondaleRider
06-04-2007, 01:05 AM
TPR

I can't knock the Outlaw 525 to much, because a very good friend of mine, and idol of mine, rides one..........Mr. Doug Eichner. Believe me, if it wasn't the bike he's riding, I would probably knock it a lot. But it seems to be working for him. Although I personally didn't trust the bike to much, I'm glad to see Doug finally get a deal he deserves. A deal that was way overdue.

Other then that, I love to see people argue with your knowledge. It's always cool to see other people that are farther into the industry then what they see in magazines, or products they buy.

ThePhantomRider
06-04-2007, 10:31 AM
Listen, the Outlaw is, in a way like the DS450 in that they went out of the box to come up with somthing different, though the whole setup for the rear is pretty much a copy of the Tripple E setup that came out late 80's early 90's you could add to a Banshee or 250r.

I even have a friend who has back problems and wanted a quad after years of motorcycle riding and he got a Poo Outlaw 500 new for the same price as a 400ex....It was perfect for him as he didn't have to unlearn what most solid axle riders have to since he had no time on one. He loves it and it helps his back issue a bunch.

I am a fan of Doug as well. Got to meet him and hang out with him at a local track that closed a while back, every Monday...he was always available to lend a wrench or a hand....good guy, and considering I saw him clear a 60 ft table on both a KFX700 and a bone stock Outlander, he's the guy for the job.


TPR

ThePhantomRider
06-04-2007, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by coryatver
I was thinking the exact thing when I watched that. They replaced all those trick parts they were bragging about with aftermarket

Take this into consideration....it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a quad that the majority of people won't modify for racing or personal use. They built a platform that will allow MOST riders great performance with LITTLE modification. Couple that with racers who's needs are so diverse, the race quads end up being very different.

Look at Pro Motocross....very little is stock on those units, and most factory rides have so much "Unobtanium" on them you and I could only dream of....Now with this quad in race trim, most everything is available to you, if you need or want them.

I like to point out the shocks....Stock shocks are Kayaba....Race shocks are Kayaba. Different model of shock for sure, but like their 2 wheeled bretheren, they realized that the likes of Kayaba and Showa have infinitely more background in shock design both racing and production, and much more financial and techinical resources than say, Elka, Axis or whoever....that's smart thinking right there!!

TPR

xsr_racing28c
06-04-2007, 11:53 AM
As someone stated earlier, a manufacturer is NEVER going to make a stock machine that a pro or pro-am rider isn't going to touch in regards to suspension. Chromoly is well known around this industry and has been very reliable, and that is why most are going to stick to chromoly. Just because a manufaturer comes out with aluminum components doesn't mean that all of the aftermarket world is going to follow in there footsteps.

I hate the fact that people compare machines stock for stock when talking about what it is going to be good for. This can am may or may not be better for mx than any other quad out there, the only thing you can do is wait and see what they do on the track with most likely all aftermarket suspension components.

I for one just wished that manufacturers would allow you to buy a frame, motor, electronics, hubs and spindles.... it would make it so much easier on those of us who take this seriously and will end up replacing all other parts with aftermarket ones in the long run.....

Just my 02

~Jay

dunebuggie66
06-05-2007, 12:13 AM
epic video??? where the hell is it? quit your bickering and post the damn link already!!

ThePhantomRider
06-05-2007, 03:34 PM
It's on this site....3rd row down...

http://www.atvriders.com/atvreviews/canam2008ds450sportatvvideos.html


TPR

hsr
06-05-2007, 05:16 PM
If the mfg's say these things come race ready i want to see some nerfs and a tether on them from the factory. They may not be performance items but you sure can't race a bike w/ out em.

CannondaleRider
06-05-2007, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by hsr
If the mfg's say these things come race ready i want to see some nerfs and a tether on them from the factory. They may not be performance items but you sure can't race a bike w/ out em.

For the umteenth time, Can-Am said "Race Inspired" not "Race Ready"

Big difference.

The only race ready bike thus far has been the Cannondale Moto, and the Cannondale Blaze

Ryan
06-06-2007, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by CannondaleRider

The only race ready bike thus far has been the Cannondale Moto, and the Cannondale Blaze

Yup. I think the new KTM's will be race ready, right outta the box. I can't wait to see this thing come out. I bet the price will be a bit steeper than the others.

parkers30
06-06-2007, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by hsr
If the mfg's say these things come race ready i want to see some nerfs and a tether on them from the factory. They may not be performance items but you sure can't race a bike w/ out em.

There are many people racing Harescrambles and GNCC who choose not to run nerfs. How can you say you 'can't race a bike without them'?

The pictures of the new KTM which does seem to be a 'race ready' bike do not include them either, but it listed as having a factory kill cord. Personnally I think all ATV's should come with teather system from the factory, its just safer.

bwamos
06-06-2007, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by parkers30
Personnally I think all ATV's should come with teather system from the factory, its just safer.

Amen, agree 100%

CannondaleRider
06-06-2007, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by parkers30
There are many people racing Harescrambles and GNCC who choose not to run nerfs. How can you say you 'can't race a bike without them'?



Many series' require nerfs.

WORCS for example, they are required, to an extent. If you don't have them, you must start over a quad length behind your line, so there is no chance of you being in the pack at the holeshot turn.....where you need nerfs the most.

parkers30
06-06-2007, 01:11 PM
I am aware that many series do require them, but that doesn't make the statement that 'you can't race without them' any less false. There are still many racing series that do not.

CannondaleRider
06-06-2007, 02:44 PM
Yes, I was just trying to explain that HE probably has not had experience in any series that does not require them.

Ryan
06-06-2007, 04:20 PM
Some series require it, and some don't... Its completely impossible to make everyone happy. If it don't come with nerfs, then go out and buy a damn pair. If the new ktm comes with a tether kill switch, and some other racing aftermarket products, I think thats great, Its a step in the right direction, but not everyone is or does not want to race.

bwamos
06-07-2007, 07:09 AM
IMHO it wouldn't necessirally be in our best intrest to have the quads come with nerfs. That's one of the parts that everyone wants different.

I for example can not stand a steel heel guard. I'd rather run no heel guard or a netted one (like Raths). Many prefer nerfs with integrated foot pegs, etc. Tacking on an extra $100 to the price tag to have nerfs on it would simply be wasted money for most.

But for saftey reasons I cant imagine why all ATV's wouldn't come with a pro-design style tether kill switch.