Diamond j custom widening brackets

[Louie]

I'd like to here from "those who have tried" these brackets and see what your thoughts were / are. There's a lot of theries about what it does to the handleing and set-up to the quad. "Please" lets here from only those who have tried these mounts. Describe what type of riding you were doing with them (mx,trails,dunes,casual) and your recomendations. Thanks

[tar]

DO NOT GET IT!!! My cousin got a kit for his 250ex and it's crap. The suspension bottoms out when you stand on the front of the quad and it made the a arms rub on the wheels.DON"T GET IT!

[Louie]

I'm not going to get it. I posted a topic of what parts people were using when they widened their 400ex and these brackets were mentioned. The discussion on these things began to take over the initial intentions of gathering information of size and types of parts to get for my project. So i created this topic so people can offer their opinions on this product on this thread. From what i've been hearing these things dont work properly. One thing i will say though is in one of the huevos dvd's one of the riders has these on his quad and he is riding pretty aggressively.

[mak400ex]

I have installed this kit on my sons 250ex - I have tested it on trails and sand dunes and can say its a good kit for the $ (120) on ebay, it handles a lot better than stock and gives ya better balance in the corners. We are going to put the 400ex shocks on it this weekend.
My son weights 155lbs and it is lower but does not bottom out I’m 190 and it handles great for me. We are only recreational riders but we do ride hard from time to time. I am thinking about putting one on my 400ex. Diamond J customs has sold over 1000 of these kits with no negitive feedback. Of course its not the best thing out there but it works. Here some pics.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300224

[Valhalla]

ive been thinking of picking up a set also for my blaster. its mostly used for my 13 year old to ride when we go out and he doesnt ride it hard at all. although he has tipped it over a few times on tight corners because of it being so narrow. we do mostly desert trail and mountian riding. hardly any jumps but there are quite a few medium sized rocks and washes that we cross from time to time. can you give me a little more info on them and details on what kind of riding you do.

[Eviltanker]

Yeah I'd like to hear more about this from someone that has them. I can make them in my shop and people have asked about them but, I have not made them yet since I don't know enough about them.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by Eviltanker
Yeah I'd like to hear more about this from someone that has them. I can make them in my shop and people have asked about them but, I have not made them yet since I don't know enough about them.


want me to be a tester for you? make a set, mail them to me, ill give a reveiw on how they work out, and what you coul do to make them better. :D

[JOEX]

Threads like this are in dire need of accurate graphics and pics to help everyone understand the physics of suspension.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by JOEX
Threads like this are in dire need of accurate graphics and pics to help everyone understand the physics of suspension.

I'll take a crack at that. I'm not a suspension geometry guru so someone point out errors if I make them. :eek:


This simplified graphic attempts to show how a-arms and tie rods of different length affect the way they move relative to each other as the wheel goes up and down. The difference in the arcs they follow results in toe-in and/or toe-out movement of that particular wheel. Toe-in and toe-out is essentially what the wheels do when you turn the handlebars. When the a-arm and tie rod start to diverge from the same arc it has the same effect as the tie-rod actually being moved (like when you turn the handlebars). Except with bump steer it happens all by itself WITHOUT you turning the handlebars. The handlebars won't move when a wheel turns because of bump steer.

The larger the difference in a-arm vs. tie rod length, the greater the affect of bump steer.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/Bumpsteer.jpg


This image shows an arangment of upper a-arm, lower a-arm, and tie rod that would result in zero bump steer. The outer pivot point of each component follows in the same arc path (although the path is not actually shown). With this arrangment, as the wheel moves up and down through its travel there would be no toe-in or toe-out movements of the wheel (i.e. steering) caused by the angles of the components.

http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/text/bsdrawing.jpg


Manufactures put effort into optimizing steering/suspension component geometry to minimize or eliminate bump steer. Take the Polaris Predator for example. They designed what they call the Polaris Rider Optomized (PRO) steering system. Most quads have the inner tie rod ends placed very near the steering stem. This makes the tie rods long relative to the a-arms and aggravates bump steer. The Polaris solution was to create a linkage system that moves the inner tie rod ends out from the steering stem.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/snapper1180075822501.png

#27 is the inner tie rod end. #5 is the steering stem. On many designs these attach rather close to one another and well inboard of where the inner a-arm pivots are located. Polaris attatches the tie rod end to a linkage system (#11 & #7) that moves the tie rod end pivot points outboard so they fall in the same plane as the a-arm pivots.

http://www.off-road.com/atv/reviews/quads/2003predator/gallery/p500_13.jpg

In the above picture you can see the inner tie-rod end location relative to the a-arm pivots. This system makes for a heavy and complicated arrangement--but it does serve to solve bump steer issues. Polaris saw fit to make this trade-off.

Some manufactures take a different route. Take the Kawasaki KFX700 V-Force as an example. Here's a pic of the underside. Rather than trying to push the tie rod ends outward, they moved the a-arm ends inward. Notice the relationship between the tie rod and a-arm pivot points. Kawasaki got the a-arms pushed together as close as they could so they could pivot near the tie rod ends.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/snapper1180082118855.png

Kawasaki says, "....the long, flat angle of the A-arms provide optimum handling by minimizing “tire scrub” during up-and-down suspension travel..." Tire-scrub is one of the effects of bump steer. It is the extra drag created by having a wheel turned even though the vehicle is trying to go straight. If toe-in/out of the wheel (created by bump steer) doesn't actually make the vehicle dart off in an unintended direction (and it might), the turned tire will "scrub" the terrain causing increased wheel drag.

Here's a picture of a widening bracket kit. Notice where the a-arm pivot points are located. They're pretty far outboard of the inner tie rod ends (which are obscured in this picture by the bumper--but they're fairly close to the steering stem).

http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/06/a0/f4/db_1.JPG

Most front end designs have some bump steering characteristics as part of their design. But this type of widening kit will make those characteristics worse because of how they change the geometry of the involved components.

I should probably end there and leave my opinions out of it. But I can't help myself! ;) Soooooo, does all this mean these kits do or don't have a place in the ATV world? That's tough for me to say. There's just so many different types of riders and situations. I can imagine there are folks who may benefit from the increased increased width more than they'll be hurt by the increased bump steer. There's got to be folks who just want to feel "less tippy" on side slopes and whatnot. Folks who don't care about "tire scrub" and are never really going fast enough to have bump steer get in the way of control by any noticable degree. So I won't discount rider expectation and differences in terrain and go so far as to condemn such kits. But personally I wouldn't use them in a high performance application. They just screw with the suspension and steering geometry too much. Sure, you can probably learn to effectively use a machine with a bump steer handicap. But it will never handle as well as it could (or maybe I should say, as well as it should). If a performance oriented rider on a performance quad really needs more width that badly--I'd say it's worth doing it "right". JMO

[pdracer440]

Way to go GPracer. That is by far the best post in this thread. Thanks for the great info.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by pdracer440
Let me start off by saying, I ACTUALLY HAVE THIS Kit on my '99 440. That being said, I can tell you that I am not a "light trail rider". I race MX, ride hard, and ride fast, and have been doing so for the last 23 years. (I started when I was 7)

Im not going to get on here and tell you that this is the best suspension mod you can buy, but I will tell you that if you can't afford new A-Arms, this kit is a vast improvement over stock. I have the three inch kit, and have never once had any issues with bumpsteer, shock travel, or anything like that. I also do not believe that they are unsafe, and as a testament to that fact, search some of my posts and you will see a pic of my bike after a little accident in Durhamtown Georgia. In the picture you will see that the left side a-arms, shock, spindle and all other attachments have been ripped from the bike. This ocured after a bad landing over an 80 foot table, and a slight encounter with a tree.

What you will however see is that the brackets from this kit, although bent badly, did not break. The arm did, the frame did, and the front bumper did. But the brackets held tight. Trust me when I say that this was a very violent accident, and I feel that this kit held up very well.

I understand the point that was made in regards to the geometry of the bike, but as I have posted before, when every aspect of the suspension and steering is moved out, this has very little affect on the geometry. The a-arms are moved out, the shocks are moved out, and the tie rods are lengthened with this kit.

I wont tell you to go out and buy this kit, but I will say that in my experience, this was a cheap mod, and well worth the money. I ran it for three years and raced countless times, with no ill affects. As a matter of fact, I never placed further out than 3rd in all the races I competed in.

Hope this helps, I think this is what the original post was meant to be for.


thank you, this is the kind of post that the majority in this thread want to see. i also noticed that the thickness of steel on these mounts are somewhere around 1/4 inch. then i looked at the shock mounts on my blaster and saw they used the thinnest peice of steel they could get away with. probably not even 1/8 inch thick. i cant see how these would be weaker than the stock mounts in any way.

[JOEX]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
I'll take a crack at that...
Thanks:)

[Barrymaxx]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
[B]I'll take a crack at that. I'm not a suspension geometry guru so someone point out errors if I make them.

Dude, that is an amazingly informative post. I already knew it, but that is some really good info, with pictures and examples to back it up.

I think thats sticky worthy. :Understanding bumpsteer

Very nice work man.:) ;)