Why we shouldn't leave Iraq

[ZeroLogic]

I'm doing a Junior paper on why we shouldn't leave Iraq but I am having some problems finding infomation. There was a thread on here that had a great link that had a few pages on what would happen if we left and some background history about the war and such. Can anyone give me some infomation. (I spent a few days searching and found very little.)

[ZeroLogic]

Up.

I gotta do the same thing kind of. All I can find is why we should leave.

[ZeroLogic]

Same here.:grr:

[troyleepred719]

I had a good thread going a little while that everyone contributed too, making it prettyy informative, search EVER WONDER? on the search, it should come up

[derekhonda]

Just learn from history.

We left germany in ruins after ww1, ended up fighting the same damn war 30ish years later because the job wasnt finished (the cleaning up and setting up of a new government)

Same thing will happen, new tyrant will take power, our kids will fight the next war.

It's a very unstable region, an american presence will make pakistan very hesitant to do anything dumb amongts other countries in that area. see israel for an example.

[TGW_400ex]

Originally posted by derekhonda
Just learn from history.

We left germany in ruins after ww1, ended up fighting the same damn war 30ish years later because the job wasnt finished (the cleaning up and setting up of a new government)

Same thing will happen, new tyrant will take power, our kids will fight the next war.

It's a very unstable region, an american presence will make pakistan very hesitant to do anything dumb amongts other countries in that area. see israel for an example.

Korea and Vietnam are somewhat of examples too.

[Rich250RRacer]

I am a Republican and backed the war, but as it drags on and more American lives are lost, I feel stronger about pulling out. That feeling was solidified today by a story in our newspaper. These people are nothing more than animals. We will NEVER change their way of thinking, it is impossible. They hate each other and they hate us. There is no way we can stop this from happening over and over again.

Headline:
Her uncle and cousins beat the 17-year-old to death for loving a youth outside her religion.

LOS ANGELES TIMES

BAGHDAD, Iraq — The video is shaky, but the brutality is clear.

A slender, black-haired girl is dragged in a headlock through a braying mob of men. Within seconds, she is on the ground in a fetal position, covering her head in her arms in a futile attempt to fend off a shower of stones.

Someone slams a concrete block onto the back of her head. A river of blood oozes from beneath her long, tangled hair. The girl stops moving, but the kicks and the rocks keep coming, as do the victorious shouts of the men delivering them.

In the eyes of many in her community in northern Iraq, 17-year-old Duaa Khalil Aswad's crime was to love a boy from another religion. She was a Yazidi, an insular religious sect. He was a Sunni Muslim. To Duaa's uncle and cousins, that was reason enough to put her to death last month in the village of Bashiqa.

Women's groups say the video shows Iraq's backward slide as religious and ethnic intolerance takes hold.

"There is a new Taliban controlling the lives of women in Iraq," said Hana Edwar, the leader of the Amal Organization for Women, a nongovernmental group in Baghdad. "I think this story will be absolutely repeated again. I believe if security is not controlled, such stories will be very common."

Discord everywhere

But the case has far broader dimensions in Iraq, where anger arising from it points to the ethnic, religious and sectarian discord that colors virtually every issue here — even the slaying of a teenage girl.

That anger has been fueled by release of the video images, made with someone's cellular phone, that appeared on the Internet and that over the weekend was the focus of a report on CNN.

Kurds, who include Yazidis, suspect Sunni Arabs of circulating the gruesome images to fuel anger against Yazidis and undermine the Kurdish community, which exercises a degree of autonomy in northern Iraq and is seeking more.

"It seems they are trying to make it big for political purposes," said Mohsen Gargari, a Kurdish member of parliament.

In an interview, he and two other Kurdish lawmakers condemned Duaa's killing. But they noted that in February a Sunni woman had been killed by relatives for having a relationship with a Yazidi man. "Nobody talked about it. Nobody filmed it or turned it into a big issue," he said.

In a report released last month, the United Nations said so-called "honor killings" of women were on the rise in Iraq. In January and February alone, according to the report, at least 40 women had been killed for alleged "immoral conduct," which can range from sitting in a car with a man who is not a relative to having an adulterous relationship.

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
I am a Republican and backed the war, but as it drags on and more American lives are lost, I feel stronger about pulling out. That feeling was solidified today by a story in our newspaper. These people are nothing more than animals. We will NEVER change their way of thinking, it is impossible. They hate each other and they hate us. There is no way we can stop this from happening over and over again.

Headline:
Her uncle and cousins beat the 17-year-old to death for loving a youth outside her religion.

LOS ANGELES TIMES

BAGHDAD, Iraq — The video is shaky, but the brutality is clear.

A slender, black-haired girl is dragged in a headlock through a braying mob of men. Within seconds, she is on the ground in a fetal position, covering her head in her arms in a futile attempt to fend off a shower of stones.

Someone slams a concrete block onto the back of her head. A river of blood oozes from beneath her long, tangled hair. The girl stops moving, but the kicks and the rocks keep coming, as do the victorious shouts of the men delivering them.

In the eyes of many in her community in northern Iraq, 17-year-old Duaa Khalil Aswad's crime was to love a boy from another religion. She was a Yazidi, an insular religious sect. He was a Sunni Muslim. To Duaa's uncle and cousins, that was reason enough to put her to death last month in the village of Bashiqa.

Women's groups say the video shows Iraq's backward slide as religious and ethnic intolerance takes hold.

"There is a new Taliban controlling the lives of women in Iraq," said Hana Edwar, the leader of the Amal Organization for Women, a nongovernmental group in Baghdad. "I think this story will be absolutely repeated again. I believe if security is not controlled, such stories will be very common."

Discord everywhere

But the case has far broader dimensions in Iraq, where anger arising from it points to the ethnic, religious and sectarian discord that colors virtually every issue here — even the slaying of a teenage girl.

That anger has been fueled by release of the video images, made with someone's cellular phone, that appeared on the Internet and that over the weekend was the focus of a report on CNN.

Kurds, who include Yazidis, suspect Sunni Arabs of circulating the gruesome images to fuel anger against Yazidis and undermine the Kurdish community, which exercises a degree of autonomy in northern Iraq and is seeking more.

"It seems they are trying to make it big for political purposes," said Mohsen Gargari, a Kurdish member of parliament.

In an interview, he and two other Kurdish lawmakers condemned Duaa's killing. But they noted that in February a Sunni woman had been killed by relatives for having a relationship with a Yazidi man. "Nobody talked about it. Nobody filmed it or turned it into a big issue," he said.

In a report released last month, the United Nations said so-called "honor killings" of women were on the rise in Iraq. In January and February alone, according to the report, at least 40 women had been killed for alleged "immoral conduct," which can range from sitting in a car with a man who is not a relative to having an adulterous relationship.

These honor killings are an everyday occurance for these people . I saw the video and it is brutal . The girl is stoned and kicked to death , and everything is caught on tape. The police forces don't even do anything to stop it ... they stand back and let it go on in the middle of the streets.


We , in the Western World, want to change the views of these people in the Middle East , but it's a losing battle . How can you change the views of millions of people about things that have been going on for Thousands of years ?? You can't. It's like them comming here and changing our minds and getting us to perform these " honor killings" , telling us that women should be wrapped from head to toe , telling us that it's OK to beat , torture and kill women for the smallest of issues . We wouldn't buy it .... so why should they buy it ?? To them , they aren't doing anything wrong .... it's their way of life ... it's all they've ever known .

[banshee84]

yeah they love death over there and that will never change, it's f'd up. If there wasn't any oil over there we wouldn;t give a ****.

Originally posted by troyleepred719
I had a good thread going a little while that everyone contributed too, making it prettyy informative, search EVER WONDER? on the search, it should come up

Yea, because www.atvriders.com would be a great site for one of my sources on the paper.

[54warrior]

"No war has ever been won by evacuation."

Enough said.

[54warrior]

Also, don't expect to find any real answers in the media, they only tell us what they want us to hear.

I spoke with an uncle of mine over this past weekend (a captain in the Navy) and he claimed that right now everything is so screwed up because of Political Correctness. Basically that we could take them all out right now if they were given the orders, but can't because of the friggin media, and also because of upcoming presidential elections.

He said that they know how to beat us-through the media. Basically they know that we have more soldiers, more weapons, etc. and that there is no way they can beat us in a "real" war. They also know that if they can somewhat control/influence the things that the media shows on tv/radio, that they can convince everyone HERE(that's not over there fighting) into believing it's a lost cause and lose support for the war (exactly what is happening).

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by 54warrior
"No war has ever been won by evacuation."

Enough said.

We can't win this war, didn't you read the post above. WE ARE NEVER GOING TO CHANGE THEIR WAY OF THINKING OR THEIR BELIEFS. This isn't about winning, it's about minimizing further loss of life. Tell me what would be considered a victory in Iraq.

[54warrior]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
Tell me what would be considered a victory in Iraq.

Sheet...

of....

Glass!!!




If I understand your thinking correctly then, your theory would be this: we should have never gone over there and just let them all kill each other and make the middle east even more unstable?!?!

You are 100% correct that they will NEVER change their thinking, I don't disagree with that. Some type of control does need to be in place though. There is NO right or wrong answer to the solution to this problem.

[ATV Chic]

Yes there is, we can not and should not Police the world. That's the UN's job. And I don't think it can even really be considered a war. We are there policing them and training their soldiers. I agree with you also on the media stuff. They know they can use that against us and do. But, that's still not the main reason people here want our troops home. They are not happy that we ever went in the first place for the majority i beleive. JMO.:ermm:

[smr]

We should not pull out because we we're asked to come in and do the job. We are doing nothing more than helping out fellow humans.

The people of Iraq asked us for help and we responded. Things over there are bad and that's the reason we should stay. I served with the 502nd infantry over there and I still carry a picture with me today that a child gave me while I was there. The poeple of Iraq need our suport and we shouldn't leave until the job is done.

Don't believe the media...they will lie to sell storys.

sexyatvchic...You make a good point and you present it well without affending anyone. I will say that I dissagree. We are no longer liberating Iraq, that job is done. We are now fighting terrorist and we need to take them out now. We have lived very well in this country for over 40 years without a major conflict, we let things slide through the 90's. Now we are paying that price and we need to take care of it before we end up fighting them on our own soil.

Just my two cents.

[Quad18star]

Here's the thing ... How do you beat the enemy that you cannot see ?? The soldiers don't know if the guy driving his car or the woman riding her bicycle has a bomb strapped to them .... and that's exactly what is happening.

The enemy has found a way to get to the soldiers and send them home everyday in body bags . They'll do it day after day ... 2 or 3 soldiers at a time.

Do the Iraqi officials really want help ?? If so , then why were they talking about taking a month long vacation just a few weeks ago ?? :confused: It doesn't make sense to me ..... why try so hard to set up a stable environment, use your nations money , risk the lives of soldiers , only to have these "officials" want to take a vacation at a time that is so critical ?

Like I said ... you're not going to change their thinking in a matter of years ... especially not a society that has been raised this way for thousands of years. If the battle was on your soil , do you think they'd be able to change your ways and make you follow their ways in a matter of years or decades ?? I highly doubt it because you and I have been raised with different beliefs. You listen to your President , they listen to their Leader. You follow your religion and your God ( which brings Peace), they follow theirs which tells them to wipe out anyone that doesn't believe in it.

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by smr
We should not pull out because we we're asked to come in and do the job. We are doing nothing more than helping out fellow humans.

The people of Iraq asked us for help and we responded. Things over there are bad and that's the reason we should stay. I served with the 502nd infantry over there and I still carry a picture with me today that a child gave me while I was there. The poeple of Iraq need our suport and we shouldn't leave until the job is done.

Don't believe the media...they will lie to sell storys.

sexyatvchic...You make a good point and you present it well without affending anyone. I will say that I dissagree. We are no longer liberating Iraq, that job is done. We are now fighting terrorist and we need to take them out now. We have lived very well in this country for over 40 years without a major conflict, we let things slide through the 90's. Now we are paying that price and we need to take care of it before we end up fighting them on our own soil.

Just my two cents.

First and foremost, thank you for your service. I supported this war and believe that removing Saddam was the right thing to do. From a civilian point of view, I just don't see a a way for us to win this war, or bring peace to this region. We talk of democracy, and that means freedom to worship as one pleases. But when a religion condones stoning of a young woman because she has a relationship out side of her beliefs, where do you draw the line? Do you take action against those responsible, or do you let it go because that is their belief? It's a double-edged sword, and we're gettting cut by both sides.

[DF400ex]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
I gotta do the same thing kind of. All I can find is why we should leave.

First of all let me start off with by saying that I've been there and am going back for my second tour in the extremely near future.

My job is Civil Affairs, which is basically to rebuild Iraq. I've been out there interacting with the people and their elected leaders more than most conventional soldiers. There are a lot of good people over there. If we leave now or even in the future when the country is not ready, the country will fall apart.

We are making headway with this surge and will have made alot of progress by the time that my tour is done. Look at Baghdad for example. We have basically left it alone for the last year with no real strength of troops to hold it and make it secure. We moved most of our troops onto huge super bases which meant they went on patrols, and when done, they left and didn't come back until their next patrol. This has left many parts of Baghdad and the rest of the country open for the terrorists to take them over and place IEDs ans such.
Now we are pushing our troops out into the city on much smaller building, think single or a few buildings, so they are actively living with the people. This maks us alot more effective in our fight to secure the country.
All we have to do is secure the country enough, longenough, for the governent (not mispelled) to get strong enough to stand on it's own.

Most of the people in Iraq are on the fence. They will basically support those who help to bring food on their table to feed their family. If that is through placing IED's for the AIF or working for us on projects they do not care to much.

Long story short we need to stay, help the government, and let them get strong enough to take over fully. If we leave now, God help the people of Iraq.

[DF400ex]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
First and foremost, thank you for your service. I supported this war and believe that removing Saddam was the right thing to do. From a civilian point of view, I just don't see a a way for us to win this war, or bring peace to this region. We talk of democracy, and that means freedom to worship as one pleases. But when a religion condones stoning of a young woman because she has a relationship out side of her beliefs, where do you draw the line? Do you take action against those responsible, or do you let it go because that is their belief? It's a double-edged sword, and we're gettting cut by both sides.

This is what my unit does, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_affairs

If you read it it will tell you that basically when our job is done in Iraq, we (the US) can leave. The biggest focus is on the populous now. We can win the war by bringing the populous on our side and they will therefor help identify the bad guys and even start fighting them, which is already happening. Do not forget that what you hear on the media is basically altered or you get the small negative picture just because it sells. Bad things sell, period! The people that are loosing this war for us is nt our military, and not solely our government, it's the media. By showing all negativity and only fleeting glimpses of positivity and progress, they are setting the mindset of the American people towards the war. Lets face it, we live in a counrty that believes what it see on tv and primarily does not try to verify it with other sources.

[mephyst]

I really like this thread. :) Just to let you guys know.

[zero my hero]

because we are dieing for no reason.

[Rastus]

Why should we not leave now? Hmmm...


Well, we have made a commitment to the people of Iraq. We cannot allow the same thing to happen as what happened the last time we only did the job half-way in Iraq.



I can't imagine why the Iraqi's don't really care. :rolleyes: We took a dump on them when we left last time and left Saddam in power. I'm sure that they don't get a warming message that will encourage them to help us, when they hear things coming back from the states like "Leave Iraq now!"



I know a few other times when we started a skirmish and ran out of it because Suzie soccer mom doesn't/didn't understand the way things work and what she was being fed from the TV. The soldiers that we have lost aren't a waste, until we lose the initiative and quit. THEN those soldiers that gave their lives for country, duty, honor, and protecting their families have done so in vain, thanks to the media and politicians who don't care anyway. :mad:


How about you guys? Should we leave now and make their sacrifices worth nothing, or should we stay and try to help 27 million people and honor those that we have lost?

[Eviltanker]

^^^^ 100% agree'd^^^
If you havn't been in a war or even the military, You do not know how things work

Hey not to highjack but, smr You are in the 502nd? where were you at ? I replaced a unit from the 502nd at Cooregidor. I agree with you on this one. The only fact about the war is that the American people are NOT getting the true info. We had Iraqi people that were happy that we were there, We also had people that wanted us dead but oh well.
And to the kid doing the paper, this ought to help you understand why we fight.We tore that country up and if we turn our backs now it will colapse and my son will be over there fighting against this generation.

[OutlawBill]

Too leave now is to give in to defeat. Too leave now will give Al Qaeda new base of operations too kill us. Too leave now will stop the killing of Americans Solider in Iraq and kill about 1 million Iraqis when Al Qaeda or Iran takes over. Too leave now will kill 10 million New Yorkers when they destroyed the whole city at once. Too leave now till the world we due not care about the poor innocent’s people of the world.

[bmennen07]

simple as this. We leave from over there. There are killings and the middle east is in ruins. Cool. Its not over here. Secure are borders and **** everyone else. i could care a less if muslims and ****s are dieing over there. Its better then Amercians.

[woodsman250r]

Well check this out, we have been involved in Iraq longer than we were involved in WWII and pretty much have accomplished nothing other than removing Saddam. One U.S. general made the comment that when we take three steps forward we take two back, paid for with U.S. soldiers blood. Also I would like to send every right wing idiot over there who claims they are "patriotic" and support the war. Thats fine, go enlist and head over there and get shot at everyday then. I support the soldiers probaly more than most people on here, but support the war and that idiot Bush 0%. Things over there are never going to change no matter who is over there trying to stop it. Another thing, we aren't accepting defeat against a nation, there is no army we are fighting. They are fighting cowards and terrorists who do everything in their power to kill innocent people and soldiers. There is no way to target this kind of enemy, similiar to what the U.S. saw in Vietnam. Also if anyone knows anything about history they will know that Russia tried to beat a force like this in Afghanistan and failed misserably. Bottom line, get our soldiers out of there now before more come home in coffins or seriously wounded.

[smr]

Originally posted by woodsman250r
Well check this out, we have been involved in Iraq longer than we were involved in WWII and pretty much have accomplished nothing other than removing Saddam. One U.S. general made the comment that when we take three steps forward we take two back, paid for with U.S. soldiers blood. Also I would like to send every right wing idiot over there who claims they are "patriotic" and support the war. Thats fine, go enlist and head over there and get shot at everyday then. I support the soldiers probaly more than most people on here, but support the war and that idiot Bush 0%. Things over there are never going to change no matter who is over there trying to stop it. Another thing, we aren't accepting defeat against a nation, there is no army we are fighting. They are fighting cowards and terrorists who do everything in their power to kill innocent people and soldiers. There is no way to target this kind of enemy, similiar to what the U.S. saw in Vietnam. Also if anyone knows anything about history they will know that Russia tried to beat a force like this in Afghanistan and failed misserably. Bottom line, get our soldiers out of there now before more come home in coffins or seriously wounded.

I knew somebody would do it. This was one of the best threads I've seen like this with nobody dogging nobody. Please guys just state your points and answer the kid's question and don't let this turn into the political thread like the other one going on. The kid asked why we should stay..if your against the war then start a thread called why we should leave.

Notice how the poeple that have been there and seen there buddies die still support what we are doing. This should say something.


Eviltanker...first off thanks for serving. I was with the 502nd during the first gulf war. I fought in the battles at FOB Cobra and FOB Flacon. I was a Tow gunner in delta 1/502nd infantry. I've been out for about 15years now. Wouldn't trade the experience for anything in the world.

[Pappy]

In WW2, we carpet bombed damn near every town and city to rubble, we KILLED the enemy. Yes, civilians were killed, but the war was won. Compare how we have tried to fight every military action since then and look at the results. You fight to win or you dont fight.


As far as why we shouldnt leave, my opinion is merely that we are at war, on a global scale. Our enemies have been attacking us and our interests since before we went back to Iraq and they are still attacking or attempting to attack. They have stated they will make 9/11 look small in comparison with upcoming attacks and it is our duty to prevent it. You may disagree that we shouldnt have overthrown Hussien, but the fact is we have taken the fight to them and broken up the majority of the largest terror network that is our sworn enemy. Leaving before the region is stabilized is foolish and will only breed more angst towards America. You can fight about the reasons all you like, but attacks will happen again on our soil, and it will get worse. The sad part is there is no real victory in a war such as this. We are not prepared to kill a terrorist and his family and children unless they are killed by happen-stance, too bad our enemies arent so humane. You dont get the roots, a weed just keeps coming back and spreading.

If it were me in charge, the area would still be setting off radio active alarms. I dont think one American life is worth all of Iraq or the middle east, but when we signed up to serve our country we do it prepared to die in some forgotton field or ditch and it is done with the professionalism and bravery our nations soldiers are known for. Freedom isnt free, and it sure as hell isnt cheap.

Good luck writing your paper, it is not an easy assigment.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Pappy
In WW2, we carpet bombed damn near every town and city to rubble, we KILLED the enemy. Yes, civilians were killed, but the war was won. Compare how we have tried to fight every military action since then and look at the results. You fight to win or you dont fight.


As far as why we shouldnt leave, my opinion is merely that we are at war, on a global scale. Our enemies have been attacking us and our interests since before we went back to Iraq and they are still attacking or attempting to attack. They have stated they will make 9/11 look small in comparison with upcoming attacks and it is our duty to prevent it. You may disagree that we shouldnt have overthrown Hussien, but the fact is we have taken the fight to them and broken up the majority of the largest terror network that is our sworn enemy. Leaving before the region is stabilized is foolish and will only breed more angst towards America. You can fight about the reasons all you like, but attacks will happen again on our soil, and it will get worse. The sad part is there is no real victory in a war such as this. We are not prepared to kill a terrorist and his family and children unless they are killed by happen-stance, too bad our enemies arent so humane. You dont get the roots, a weed just keeps coming back and spreading.

If it were me in charge, the area would still be setting off radio active alarms. I dont think one American life is worth all of Iraq or the middle east, but when we signed up to serve our country we do it prepared to die in some forgotton field or ditch and it is done with the professionalism and bravery our nations soldiers are known for. Freedom isnt free, and it sure as hell isnt cheap.

Good luck writing your paper, it is not an easy assigment.


We may not always see eye to eye on everything, but I couldn't agree more with this...:macho

[400exrider113]

I feel that if we let them go and pull out now our families down the road will hate us for it. Just think about blood has not been spilled on our soil in the form of combat for many years. Why is that? Because we have stood up for what we believe in. Our country has done what is/was necessary for freedom.

If we leave we leave the perfect place for leaders that dislike/hate us to come to power. Look a Germany after WW1 the country was not stable and left in ruins Hitler stood up and said I can fix your problems. They were in need and he was there. We can not do this. The technology of today can not allow us to fix our mistakes the way we did in WW2. Our country could not take the weapons of today and still stand if a foreign country was left to plot out their attack.

We may lose people in this war but they are at least fighting and have a chance to fight back. Unlike the people of 9/11 or the people that will die if we pull out now.

[whiteboycustom]

ask a terrorist if he knows what the geneva convention is,my bet they will scratch there head, what rules do they follow NONE, who follows the rules WE DO, and that is whats hurting us,i know its not right to starve a prisoner but what are u getting out of them from mind fcking them?? yea rough them up alittle but dont kill them, our enemy just kills the pow's or whatever else they do, im sure half of the iraqi army joined to build the forces so later they can turn on the US, they lie and only care for themselves, from the months i worked at the prison camp at the first of the war u see how u can not trust a iraqi, i agree we should have leveled the place not just pick and choose which building to destroy

[smr]

Originally posted by Pappy
In WW2, we carpet bombed damn near every town and city to rubble, we KILLED the enemy. Yes, civilians were killed, but the war was won. Compare how we have tried to fight every military action since then and look at the results. You fight to win or you dont fight.


As far as why we shouldnt leave, my opinion is merely that we are at war, on a global scale. Our enemies have been attacking us and our interests since before we went back to Iraq and they are still attacking or attempting to attack. They have stated they will make 9/11 look small in comparison with upcoming attacks and it is our duty to prevent it. You may disagree that we shouldnt have overthrown Hussien, but the fact is we have taken the fight to them and broken up the majority of the largest terror network that is our sworn enemy. Leaving before the region is stabilized is foolish and will only breed more angst towards America. You can fight about the reasons all you like, but attacks will happen again on our soil, and it will get worse. The sad part is there is no real victory in a war such as this. We are not prepared to kill a terrorist and his family and children unless they are killed by happen-stance, too bad our enemies arent so humane. You dont get the roots, a weed just keeps coming back and spreading.

If it were me in charge, the area would still be setting off radio active alarms. I dont think one American life is worth all of Iraq or the middle east, but when we signed up to serve our country we do it prepared to die in some forgotton field or ditch and it is done with the professionalism and bravery our nations soldiers are known for. Freedom isnt free, and it sure as hell isnt cheap.

Good luck writing your paper, it is not an easy assigment.

I'm with pappy also...good post and great point of view.

[Scott-300ex]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
It's a double-edged sword, and we're gettting cut by both sides.

Just sayin swords aren't sharp on the sides, they are only sharp at the point, because you don't slash guys with swords you stab threw the ribs.

Anyway.

My outlook on the war.

If we leave, it will be just like Vietnam, all you will hear is WE LOST THE WAR. Now we're America so we can't do that. And in the word "War" there is no word leave in the definetion of war. This also isn't a war, one big fire fight, in 3 days all the Iraqies will be dead and we will have victored their country, this is a, protect the tanker trucks and make sure their caravan gets to and from place safe and if you have to break a round loose AFTER YOU CALL IT IN TO HIGHER RANKS, then you do so. And we walk the streets to make sure we get any terrorists and such to keep it all safe.

And your right, we DO play by the rules, they DON'T, they set IED's, in cars, trigger the roads, strap them to civilians, pretty much anything they can do to destroy someones life. If we see threatning people then we have to call in to a higher rank then the ones that see it, ask for an ok, to take them out, then if the answer is yes, commence to do so. Hell, I've heard people shooting at a soldier and the commanders will not let him shoot back. Now if its an attack, then we will take them all out, but we are so carefull on who we take out and such. Now some soldiers on here or wutever may be allowed to shoot more freely, but just cuz someone looks threatning we can't take them out and bury them right there.

If we leave then Iraq will get cocky and try and rule power 10x wut they ever have. Then we will need to go in there and try and clean up that hellstorm. The more we pull out, the more power they have.

Like I said its not like a line of terrorist we can take out, they are everywhere and we have to look and hunt for them.

The good people over there like us, they come up and talk to the soldiers, give peace fingers, and thank us cuz we are over there protecting them. But you could be waving at some little 8 year old girl and then a IED gets detonated killing or wounding you and everyone else within 50 yards. Its dangerous over there but we know wut it is and we kinda need to be there since the terrorist know we are there, if we leave Iraq will be doomed so to speak.

Everyone I talk to says "We should just drop a nuke on them and be done with it." That deal with North Korea last year they said "Lets just nuke them." For one, North Korea could take out our entire country without a problem, they have the most nuclear weapons and such of the entire world, my friends think its a small country so it would be easy to demolish, not true, they catch us on radar and we are toast.

But if we turn Iraq to glass then every county would hate us, everyone thats sided with Iraq would be after us, all the terrorists would come after all the major cities instantly and we always say No Nuclear warfare and we would be hypocrites for doing so so every country would hate us.

So thats some of the ideas that I have. I'm sure you have stuff for your paper with this thread.

I think we'll have troops over there till this generation of people dies in Iraq, from natural causes. So my whole life we'll have people over there.

We should stay over there for the good of their country and the saftey of ours.

[trx450jason]

I think we should leave.. all these people know how to do is fight and that is all they will ever do. Why fight a war using all of theses lives in which you can't win?

arabs are basically the rats of the world. they have been fighting between eachother for thousands of years...the world would be better off without them...call me racist, i dont care

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by Pappy
In WW2, we carpet bombed damn near every town and city to rubble, we KILLED the enemy. Yes, civilians were killed, but the war was won. Compare how we have tried to fight every military action since then and look at the results. You fight to win or you dont fight.


As far as why we shouldnt leave, my opinion is merely that we are at war, on a global scale. Our enemies have been attacking us and our interests since before we went back to Iraq and they are still attacking or attempting to attack. They have stated they will make 9/11 look small in comparison with upcoming attacks and it is our duty to prevent it. You may disagree that we shouldnt have overthrown Hussien, but the fact is we have taken the fight to them and broken up the majority of the largest terror network that is our sworn enemy. Leaving before the region is stabilized is foolish and will only breed more angst towards America. You can fight about the reasons all you like, but attacks will happen again on our soil, and it will get worse. The sad part is there is no real victory in a war such as this. We are not prepared to kill a terrorist and his family and children unless they are killed by happen-stance, too bad our enemies arent so humane. You dont get the roots, a weed just keeps coming back and spreading.

If it were me in charge, the area would still be setting off radio active alarms. I dont think one American life is worth all of Iraq or the middle east, but when we signed up to serve our country we do it prepared to die in some forgotton field or ditch and it is done with the professionalism and bravery our nations soldiers are known for. Freedom isnt free, and it sure as hell isnt cheap.

Good luck writing your paper, it is not an easy assigment.

i agree and very cleanly said..

personally, i feel there's something to be said for brute force and its past time to wake the bear..

when fighting a belief, you need to break their spirit and keep it broken..
youll need to blow them back to the stoneage so they can start over with a new interpretation of their religion..

cleansing of the world by fire should be limited to their world not mine..

a couple last comments on this, then ill stay out of this thread..
dont think that just because we're there(US military in Iraq) that they wont try something here..
we already know there are associated and non-associated terror cells all over the world.. theyre here and waiting for complacency..

lastly, we need to wean ourselves of oil.. it gives them power..
in the end, itll change their regime and ours..

[Quad18star]

There's only one thing about "blowing them back to the stoneage" ... that only eliminates the issue in Iraq ... that doesn't do anything to stop threats from other followers ( terror cells as mentioned) that are situated all over the world.

So you wipe out an entire country , but wake up and give these terror cells and whole new reason to fight back 100 times stronger.

You shake your head in disgust when you see them ( muslim terrorists) chanting " Death to the USA" or " Death to the Western World" or " Death tho those that don't follow our Religion" , but here we are in the Western World and we have people that say " Death to the whole Middle East" Are we anymore right in saying let's wipe them off the map ?? They see the World as a better place with us gone , and we see the World a better place with them gone . We would be hypocritical if we said they were wrong and we were right.

And yes < DRS > GPF , if we ( the Western World) could wean ourselves off the oil , we would put a hurt in their system. But without the oil , we wouldn't be able to function .. we don't have the means in place right now to function without oil. Oil runs the World , always has and always will , until we can learn to live without it.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Quad18star
There's only one thing about "blowing them back to the stoneage" ... that only eliminates the issue in Iraq ... that doesn't do anything to stop threats from other followers ( terror cells as mentioned) that are situated all over the world.

So you wipe out an entire country , but wake up and give these terror cells and whole new reason to fight back 100 times stronger.

You shake your head in disgust when you see them ( muslim terrorists) chanting " Death to the USA" or " Death to the Western World" or " Death tho those that don't follow our Religion" , but here we are in the Western World and we have people that say " Death to the whole Middle East" Are we anymore right in saying let's wipe them off the map ?? They see the World as a better place with us gone , and we see the World a better place with them gone . We would be hypocritical if we said they were wrong and we were right.



I would think that if Iraq was a glowing block of glass, other nations would be booting known terror cells and be 110% onboard for getting rid of them once and for all. I can only speculate that our attack in Iraq was meant to do this but has failed.

As far as hypocritical, it wasnt Americans behind the stick on 9/11, or behind the wheel of the boat that hit the USS Cole, or that drove a truck under the WTC.

Fact is, you are not going to negotiate with them, and they have nothing but war to live for. They raise their children from birth to hate America and call for our outright destruction from this planet. What part of all this are people not getting? Politics aside, we should be killing these people wholesale and not give a ratts *** what anyone thinks about it. I dont like war or killing but dammit, I dont like the thought my family could be wiped out by some raghead at the mall either.

[whiteboycustom]

looks as if the rules of engagement have changed since i was there, we were told if its shooting at us or a threat to us or even trying to pass our convoy light them up, no if ands or but's, and just to show everyone in that country is about war, buddies in my platoon were stopped outside of the humvee waiting and a lady threw a grenade at them, lucky noone got hurt but she was going for another and a friend of mine put 3 in her chest, the very guys that came into our prison for attacks on the US were in there saying US good we love america and trying to be buddy buddy with us, they show signs of want u there but when night falls they are the ones holding the mortar dropping it in the tube aimed at a US compound, my view on it TRUST NOONE over there
and yes we had young kids around 12 in our prison for attacking US troops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsB9l2JAbfE


i agree 100% with the donald

Originally posted by whiteboycustom
looks as if the rules of engagement have changed since i was there, we were told if its shooting at us or a threat to us or even trying to pass our convoy light them up, no if ands or but's, and just to show everyone in that country is about war, buddies in my platoon were stopped outside of the humvee waiting and a lady threw a grenade at them, lucky noone got hurt but she was going for another and a friend of mine put 3 in her chest, the very guys that came into our prison for attacks on the US were in there saying US good we love america and trying to be buddy buddy with us, they show signs of want u there but when night falls they are the ones holding the mortar dropping it in the tube aimed at a US compound, my view on it TRUST NOONE over there
and yes we had young kids around 12 in our prison for attacking US troops

that sounds EXACTLY like vietnam to me.....

....my personal view in a nutshell is this; i don't think we should be in iraq, but since we are, i think we should give it a little more time and try and get something going in iraq...we might be able to pull off a little domino effect..i.e. iraq gets something good set up..then next iran, syria etc etc...i think the biggest thing is trying to get some education into those people...anyone with half a brain would realize that way of life is poop! but their leaders like keeping them dumb, because they are easier to lead that way....i guess my biggest fear is that we will always have to be there(i.e. a police force)which would mean more loss of american lives...and another fear would be the moment we leave it goes back into total chaos, which would mean a huge waste of time and effort....

[Pappy]

Originally posted by dlerch
that sounds EXACTLY like vietnam to me.....

....my personal view in a nutshell is this; i don't think we should be in iraq, but since we are, i think we should give it a little more time and try and get something going in iraq...we might be able to pull off a little domino effect..i.e. iraq gets something good set up..then next iran, syria etc etc...i think the biggest thing is trying to get some education into those people...anyone with half a brain would realize that way of life is poop! but their leaders like keeping them dumb, because they are easier to lead that way....i guess my biggest fear is that we will always have to be there(i.e. a police force)which would mean more loss of american lives...and another fear would be the moment we leave it goes back into total chaos, which would mean a huge waste of time and effort....

The president has been stating these exact words for the past 3 years. Now you are either an idiot like him (per your words) or onboard with the program.

[sandmanblue]

Why not leave?

Tearing an established government apart and rebuilding one is a lot like raising a child. It takes parenting. Like it or not, that's what we are doing. You can't leave a 10 year old out to fend for themselves just because it's too hard for you - although there are ppl that would be selfish enough to do that. We have a beginning democracy in a place where there has been no democracy. It takes time. It may take a generation or two.

I don't see what the hurry is. We Americans are so used to "I want it NOW" like little babies. What happened to patience? Commitment?

With that said, what is the downside of leaving now? Well, you'd have a new government incapable of keeping itself intact and in control. If the government in Iraq topples, then you could have a variety of wackos ready (like al Sadr) and willing to Talibanize the area. Now you have an Islamic "Sharia" type of power being put in place via force in an area that has oil and the wealth and power that comes with oil. These are the people that harbor terrorists. They grow them and hide them like the aids virus.

We all know what happened when Russia left Afghanistan. The taliban eventually took over and made it an islamic terrorist haven. We had to go there and mop up the mess.

Iraq could easily go that way, but it is in the WORLD'S best interest for us to be more patient than these scumbags. We are talking about a country that has enough oil that it could devistate the economies of many, many countries if left in the hands of these fanatics.

Running away and hoping that it will all work out would be the equivalent of leaving your 10 year old daughter in a big downtown area and hoping that she would survive all by herself. It's totally irresponsible and just flat out wrong....

[DF400ex]

Originally posted by dlerch
that sounds EXACTLY like vietnam to me.....

i think the biggest thing is trying to get some education into those people...anyone with half a brain would realize that way of life is poop! but their leaders like keeping them dumb, because they are easier to lead that way....

There are alot of educated people in Iraq. As far as their way of life? It ranges from what we would consider to, be the worst to not to far behind ours. Very few have constant security, but alot of them like the way their life is. They may not make alot of money or have nice cars, but everyone has a cell phone.

Bottom line is this... If we pull out now, nothing but chaos will ensue. The government has not had enough time to set it's self up to govern it's people and provide their security. There are just too many groups that would try to take control of their own areas. The Kurds will annex themselves and form Kurdistan. I know, I've been to their military trainning school for officers. They already have plans for that, and they aren't to bad either. The Sunni and Shea will go crazy.

It'll just be a mess, and a dark mark on the history of the US.

I'm extremely close to going back over for my second time. I've been briefed on our newest battle plans. They sound promissing and we now have the troops to execute them. Give it a year, and sift through all the negativity on the news and you'll see that it will be better then it is today.

Originally posted by Pappy
The president has been stating these exact words for the past 3 years. Now you are either an idiot like him (per your words) or onboard with the program.

like i've said before, i'm hung up on the lies that we were told to get us there....there is definitely some "accountability" issues i have trouble getting past. and you can pair that with the hypocracy of americans in general as my personal problems...but i have never been a fan of pulling out now....i have yet to see enough evidence that prooves to me that that is the right thing to do...right now anyways....i would like to hear the "splitting iraq into 3 countries" maybe discussed a little more. i waunder if that is something the people of iraq would like/want?....and if it is something they would welcome. if so it would definitely speed the process of getting us out of there....which is something we should all look forward to....JMO

Originally posted by DF400ex
There are alot of educated people in Iraq. As far as their way of life? It ranges from what we would consider to, be the worst to not to far behind ours. Very few have constant security, but alot of them like the way their life is. They may not make alot of money or have nice cars, but everyone has a cell phone.

Bottom line is this... If we pull out now, nothing but chaos will ensue. The government has not had enough time to set it's self up to govern it's people and provide their security. There are just too many groups that would try to take control of their own areas. The Kurds will annex themselves and form Kurdistan. I know, I've been to their military trainning school for officers. They already have plans for that, and they aren't to bad either. The Sunni and Shea will go crazy.

It'll just be a mess, and a dark mark on the history of the US.

I'm extremely close to going back over for my second time. I've been briefed on our newest battle plans. They sound promissing and we now have the troops to execute them. Give it a year, and sift through all the negativity on the news and you'll see that it will be better then it is today.

hey you posted this while i was writing...how do you think the iraqi people would take to splitting it into 3? you know the north to the kurds, then split the rest for the sunni/shiite? or is that just to big of a logistical nightmare to pull off?

[DF400ex]

Originally posted by dlerch
hey you posted this while i was writing...how do you think the iraqi people would take to splitting it into 3? you know the north to the kurds, then split the rest for the sunni/shiite? or is that just to big of a logistical nightmare to pull off?

Well the North would definitely like it. The largest deposits of oil are in the north. The infrastructure to collect and refign it isn't built yet enough to use it. Fron what I've heard it would take a more expensive way to get it. No clue why, but that's why they have focused on the southern deposits in the past.

The Sunni and Shi'a would like it, but Shi'a make up 60%-65% and Sunni make up 32%-37%. Christian or other only make up 3%. Then you would have to decide who gets the oil to the south, and who gets what regions.

it would be a huge pain in the butt. In most areas there are sunni and shi'a. And, in baghdad for example there is no clear line that separates the city in half. There are sunni neighborhoods surrounded by she'a neighborhoods and visa-versa.

It would take the relocation of most of the 27,499,638 million (CIA world fact book, July 2007 est.)of Iraqi's in order to make it happen. Another thing to take in to consideration is the ancient cities. Some of these people hold these paces as sacred. Babylon is in Iraq, you know, the cradle of civilization. Christ walked and lived in Iraq. There is a surprising amount of history to in that country. There are too many factors at hand for that to work. But believe me, it would be nice if it could be that easy.

Originally posted by DF400ex
But believe me, it would be nice if it could be that easy.

agreed...:ermm: ...any insight at what would ease the transition?

[Outlaw 50]

Originally posted by Quad18star
You listen to your President , they listen to their Leader. You follow your religion and your God ( which brings Peace), they follow theirs which tells them to wipe out anyone that doesn't believe in it.

Here is the key to the whole conflict, great commentary Quad18star!!

The reason we need to stay is to show these Muslims that they do not have to follow a religion that teaches them non tolerance.

Setting up a democracy in the middle of this region is the only way to show them another option for living their lives. Unless they actually see an example of how to live differently, they will continue to behave like they are living in the seventh century.

We need to allow them to get used to the idea that people of different beliefs CAN live in harmony with each other.

At the same time we are working on this task, we are drawing in groups like Al Qaeda to kill their members.

If you read the teachings and commentaries from Osama Bin Laden, he talks constantly about the new Caliphate and where it will be centered.

They want to locate this governing center in the place of ancient Babylon which is the modern day location of Baghdad Iraq.

Our presence in this place keeps this from happening and also gives the Iraqi people time to get used to living with some tolerance of their different tribes in their country.

And before any of you get in an uproar about our brave soldiers being killed, yes that is a very real fact of this conflict. After all it is a WAR!

These people who enlist in our military are a cut above the rest of us. They are selfless people who have the ability to see and do what needs to be done for the good of this nation and our future. We owe them a debt of gratitude that is hard to put into words.

[Outlaw 50]

Originally posted by dlerch
hey you posted this while i was writing...how do you think the iraqi people would take to splitting it into 3? you know the north to the kurds, then split the rest for the sunni/shiite? or is that just to big of a logistical nightmare to pull off?

Splitting the country into 3 segments would defeat the purpose of our being there. The plan is to teach them to live together and for the rest of the middle east to see that it can be done.

[Outlaw 50]

Originally posted by sexyatvchic
Yes there is, we can not and should not Police the world. That's the UN's job. And I don't think it can even really be considered a war. We are there policing them and training their soldiers. I agree with you also on the media stuff. They know they can use that against us and do. But, that's still not the main reason people here want our troops home. They are not happy that we ever went in the first place for the majority i beleive. JMO.:ermm:

Where to start...hmmmm.........?

"We cannot and should not police the world"......Who should, the Islamofacists? Are we so selfish that we should be the only people on earth who live in freedom? According to our Declaration of Independence:" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness "

Does not ALL men are created equal include the rest of the world, or is it just us who deserve to live in freedom?

"That's the UN's job"......I would like to see or read about ONE single example where the UN has done anything with a good RESULT. Can anyone give me one?

"And I don't think it can even really be considered a war.".......HUH??.....I think ALL of our military families who have soldiers involved in this conflict would disagree with that statement, especially the ones who have lost a member of their family in this endeavor. Maybe a trip to Walter Reed Medical center would enlighten you!

"We are there policing them and training their soldiers.".....This is part of nation building, we have done it before in Japan and Germany after WWII. Would you have us leave them defenseless after taking out Sadams thugs?

"I agree with you also on the media stuff. They know they can use that against us and do."......Reading this post shows that some of us are VERY susceptible to what is said in the Media...

"But, that's still not the main reason people here want our troops home. They are not happy that we ever went in the first place for the majority i beleive. ".... This comment represents exactly the effectiveness of the media in working against our interests world wide. How many people have you talked to personally about this war? What sources do you get your information from? How many SOLDIERS or MARINES have you sat down and talked to?

As general Patton once said:

"Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bull****. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight.


The rest of which can be found here: http://www.bob-west.com/PATTON-SPEECH.html

Thank you for the post sexyatvchic, it is the perfect example of how the media is working in concert with Al Qeada and the Left in this country to mislead the citizens of our country. This is NOT meant to be a personal attack on you as an individual. Its just a rebuttal to all the media BS.