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View Full Version : Rear Suspension/Drive and Brakes



ThePhantomRider
05-21-2007, 12:02 AM
So, what's gonna happen this week?

Link, No Link???

Anything groundbreaking in the final drive?

Will we have internal caliper rears too?

TPR

protraxrptr17
05-21-2007, 05:32 AM
Probably no internal caliper on the rear. Would there be an advantage? The internal caliper lets you use fit a larger rotor inside the wheel.

Probably a cast aluminum swingarm, hopefully an eccentric carrier. Dual piston caliper, hopefully an adjustable axle. They said something about unsprung weight, so the swingarm will be crazy looking. Possibly a no link to help with that.

TPR, I sent you a PM.

ThePhantomRider
05-21-2007, 11:56 AM
Well, I have no info on this, but from the video and screen captures people have made, I have seen that it is a Honda style carrier/adjuster..could they improve on that??? Who knows.

Probably right on the rear brake, since the calipers are located out of the way anyway. The fact that they are using Willwood braking systems is a big step up in performance braking.

Aluminum swingarms have gotten sooo much better that many pro's use the stock ones with little or no problems.

As for if there is a linkage, I can't tell off the shadow picture, but linkage suspension doesn't actually add very much weight and you can package the shock to be lower in frame and more centralized which follows their design edict. Then again their no-link 650 has always worked pretty well.

Only 4 more days till we all know.


TPR

400exrider707
05-21-2007, 12:19 PM
I'm guessing a forged aluminum swinger to match the sweet arms...

Rootar
05-21-2007, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by 400exrider707
I'm guessing a forged aluminum swinger to match the sweet arms...


a forged aluminum swingarm would be kickass, maybe itll come stock with atleast a twin row carrier or possibly a tapered bearing setup, im sure itll have a wave rotor, awesome wilwood cailper, itll have ss lines, im thinking to shave weight theyll use aluminum rear hubs w/ steel splines (sorta like the durablues) except theyll be forged and not cast (this would get rid of quite a bit of weight and of course itll have a composite skid

i think we are gonna see alot of forged parts for strength and to further shave weight where they want to.

but i dont think itll have an adjustable axle

trx450jason
05-21-2007, 09:00 PM
I think they will have an eccentric (like honda) or better bearing carrier. Honda's pattent is up so other companies and use the same design but hopefully they have improved on it.

bradley300
05-22-2007, 07:55 AM
honda's was a japanese patenet, there was never anything stopping a non jaanese company from using the honda stlye chain adjuster. the ds650 has always had it, so did the cannondales and gas gas

54warrior
05-22-2007, 09:34 AM
Speaking of patents, the Honda motorcycle front brake line routing was patented as well and I belive KTM copied it the same way because they were not slant eyes.

rpyfz450
05-22-2007, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by bradley300
honda's was a japanese patenet, there was never anything stopping a non jaanese company from using the honda stlye chain adjuster. the ds650 has always had it, so did the cannondales and gas gas

I'm pretty sure the Kawasaki Mojave and Lakota had the eccentric chain adjustment back in the late 1980ies.

OutlawBill
05-22-2007, 01:17 PM
How about a swing-arm like a W-TEC quad but a single shockhttp://www.w-tec.nl/imagesevo/rear%20swing%20arm%20b750.JPG

atv223
05-23-2007, 11:48 AM
Actually, Honda did have a US patent that had a priority date of the original Japanese patent on their chain adjustment system and when it expired you saw all the other manufactures switch to a Honda style design. I would be happy to post a link to the US Honda patent if anyone is interested. I wrote an article about this in ATV Illustrated magazine just after it expired.

SlOoT
05-23-2007, 12:46 PM
Did you know the W-tec EVO has a hollow tube as a rear axle ?

The rear axle is also very flexible, on hard impact it will bend and then return to normal shape. Seems to be indestructable and very low weigth.

http://www.planetquadracing.be/coppermine/albums/MCLBlichtervelde9_9_06/l1.jpg

Quad18star
05-23-2007, 01:09 PM
The rear is going to be another turning point in the ATV industry. Again Can-Am has rewritten the "standard" rear end design and come out with something completly different . You're going to see the most rear shock travel in it's class ... fully adjustable rear shock ... a new braking system and a swingarm design and suspension geometry system that will set the standard in the sport.


Can-Am wants you to be able to take this quad ... show up at a race and win. They have their sights set on multiple championships.

Toadz400
05-23-2007, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Quad18star
The rear is going to be another turning point in the ATV industry. Again Can-Am has rewritten the "standard" rear end design and come out with something completly different . You're going to see the most rear shock travel in it's class ... fully adjustable rear shock ... a new braking system and a swingarm design and suspension geometry system that will set the standard in the sport.


Can-Am wants you to be able to take this quad ... show up at a race and win. They have their sights set on multiple championships.

Suweeet!

Will we be seeing all this information this Saturday on the site?

rpyfz450
05-23-2007, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Quad18star You're going to see the most rear shock travel in it's class ...

We'll they didn't impress us with the 9.5" of front travel. That certainly doesn't set any new standard in front suspension. Wouldn't it be odd if the rear suspension had significantly more travel than the front does?

Blaster91
05-25-2007, 10:25 PM
Its updated!!!!!!

Nice hollow axle, hope it works well!

R8 450
05-26-2007, 12:33 AM
What's a hollow axle?

CannondaleRider
05-26-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by R8 450
What's a hollow axle?


A Hollow Axle is an axle that is hollow, lol.

It's a Chromoly axle, that is hollow, instead of a solid steel axle, like most everything else.

Not sure how well that will hold up....chromoly is strong, but I'm not so sure it's that strong.

GPracer2500
05-26-2007, 01:18 AM
An axle with a hole going through it, silly. ;)

eta: whoops....too slow

Groves187
05-26-2007, 09:57 AM
Well i cam across this pic on the site, figured i would post it..

chromoly is suposed to be three times stronger than steel, and its a bit lighter too...

motox450
05-26-2007, 10:24 AM
Cromoly is a grade of steel. There are all types of grades. Cromoly is lighter and stronger than just high-tensile steel, but there are other grades that are even lighter and stronger that cromo. So this axle may be stronger it will yet to be seen. I was fairly impressed with the frame, but I haven't seen anything super significant since then. They are definetly thinking outside the box, but I like many others were hoping for a more mx ready quad. Most of what they have added now would have to be replaced for mx so it really loses its apeal. The forged A-arms are a great idea, but would be replaced, hollow axle would have to be replaced. So two of their biggest marketing points for a mx racer are no longer marketing points. Now if can-am would sell a (mx kit) per se with longer forged a-arms and longer axle then I would be more interested. At this point I believe I am going to wait for the new KTM race quad to come out.

TWILES
05-26-2007, 11:30 AM
I like it. From an MX point of view they need to make an "MX kit" like said above but the hollow axle is nice. I had an X-33 on my 250R and I'm 230lbs and never bent or broke it. I DO think that changing out to steal a-arms and a heavy racing axle will even the bike out to where its not heavy on one end. The stock axle out of a 500 Quadracer weighs 11 pounds and the DuraBlue Eliminator for it weighs 20. A-arms probably won't be 8 pounds heavier than the stock ones. They should have made it with 4+1 front wheels and stock rears that could be reversed to make it an inch wider per side in the back. Then you put 3+2 fronts and you gain 2 inches width. Jeremy Schell is a big dude. If he's really happy with it, everyone will be.

CannondaleRider
05-26-2007, 12:36 PM
I also hope they offer an MX kit, or something to that affect.

I need 50 inches, no more, no less.

Yes, you have the option of gaining front end width by adding wider offset rims, but your putting the tire outside the center line of the balljoints.....which defeats the major purpose of that front end....you'd just be adding leverage.

I want to be able to stick with the stock offset(But with Hipers, of course:D ) to not mess with the stock setup/R&D, but with +2 A-arms or so, to get it to exactly 50 Inches.

I'm sure that axle will do fine with normal riding, but in a race situation, with HARD hits, I'm not so sure.....Then again, if it stands up to Jeremy's abuse, it may be perfect. Add two inches to both sides, in a race situation, with that same design, I'd be that much more worried.......Only time will tell.

mephyst
05-26-2007, 02:17 PM
Why don't they ever mention the actual shocks themselves? I agree, I haven't really been amazed by anything since the frame. The KTM looks prettttttttty niceeeee..... =]

450R-156
05-26-2007, 05:52 PM
I think a hollow axle should hold up just fine, the material inside doesnt provide very much strength we learned in physics that it only provides a small percentage of the strength. If it has a larger diameter than the other axles it could be stronger from what i have learned in physics

naz
05-26-2007, 06:01 PM
Hollow axle is nothing new the stock axle on a 1985 atc 250r is a hollow axle. I know i break one 18 years ago.

R8 450
05-26-2007, 07:14 PM
For me the only good thing in this is the frame but as far as the rear setup concerns, it's ugly as hell. Those hubs look so freaking weird and the travel of the shocks it's not at all impressive.
The axle as well it's to short even with those silly hubs.
I think they went to far trying to make it the lightest quad ever, everything was okay until they released that stupid rear setup.
Sorry it's only my modest opinion.

Groves187
05-26-2007, 07:37 PM
Yeah you never know tho, it could come with a just as wide or wider stance than the LT-R450, But if not a MX kit would be a must..

450robot
05-26-2007, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by R8 450
For me the only good thing in this is the frame but as far as the rear setup concerns, it's ugly as hell. Those hubs look so freaking weird and the travel of the shocks it's not at all impressive.
The axle as well it's to short even with those silly hubs.
I think they went to far trying to make it the lightest quad ever, everything was okay until they released that stupid rear setup.
Sorry it's only my modest opinion.

dont forget the leverage advantage of that shorter axle. less length, means less flex (less possibility of bending)

the hubs make up for the shortness, but the hubs carry a more structurally sound shape than a tube (axle) would, thats why they chose zed design

its not all about weight, can-am went way out of the way to make sure they are light, AND have superior strength

bsmith106
05-27-2007, 09:48 AM
To me the most impressive part of this quad is the front suspension. Forget about the a-arms. The steering knuckles are the key. They dictate where all the components are located. Placing the caliper inside the rotor gives the room neccessary to get the ball joints where they need to be. This style of brakes has been used since 2003 on buells lightning and thunderbolt streetbike models. The biggest advantage in the design imo is going to be steering kickback or the lack of it. Some people refer to it as bump steer, but it is the biggest difference i notice when switching from my bike to my quad. I think this is going to give great confidence when charging into uneven bumps or trails with lots of tree roots. The other part is the king pin angle. Lots of kingpin angle makes the tires lean as you steer giving less traction. this quad has less and i expect it to be a very precise steering machine.

maddmatt02
05-28-2007, 02:17 PM
kickback isnt bumpsteer, the reason they tucked it in so far is if the wheel hits something the wheel wants to turn, and in doing so it puts force through the tie-rods, stem, bars, right into your wrist. bump steer is something that happens if the a-arms pivot on a way different pointn than the tie rod, a arms in one position you set the tie rod to go straight and then when the wheel moves and the a arms come up, the wheel goes farther out, but the tie rod stays the same length and the tie rod mounting points stay the same so the wheel turns in a little bit, and this is without the bars needing to move at all.

not a very good technical description but maybe you understood.

bsmith106
05-28-2007, 08:41 PM
No i am aware of the difference, I have just read alot of posts that describe the feedback you get through the handlebars (when your front tire grabs a tree root etc) as bump steer. I was just trying to convey to people who use both terms, "some people refer to it as bump steer". Its hard to desribe exactly what your thinking without being too wordy. Thanks though as you may have helped some understand my point better. There are alot of misunderstandings because of the different terms people use to decribe things. Such as suspension scrub and scrub radius. Suspension scrub is the amount of lateral movement at the tires contact patch when the suspesion is cycled. Scrub radius is the distance between the tire centerline and where the imaginary line drawn through both ball joints hits the ground. Some will surely use different terms to describe it .In the end i hope someone will learn something from me as i have from so many others. And if im wrong about something i hope somebody catches it cause i dont want to spew inaccurate info

bradley300
05-28-2007, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by rpyfz450
We'll they didn't impress us with the 9.5" of front travel. That certainly doesn't set any new standard in front suspension. Wouldn't it be odd if the rear suspension had significantly more travel than the front does?

in a perfect world, the rear would have more travel

i'm fairly dissapointed they havent mentioned anything about the shocks, or even its its alink or no link set up. the front end set up is awesome, and will work great, but like any shock, re-valves will be needed for your weight, lets just hope the shocks are good enuff that re-valves are all you need and not aftermarket shocks

maddmatt02
05-28-2007, 09:04 PM
also pretty sure scrub radius is not the distance from tire centerline to the line drawn through the ball joints. because the shorter the radius the more scrub you get, and that would be a rediculously short radius, its from the center point of where the whole suspension setup pivots to the wheels centerline, so the long arms/narrow fram let the imaginary center point be far as possible and with the same amount of travel the wheel has less lateral movement than with wide frame raisl and short arms, in this cheesy pic i drew quick you can see with the longer radius, the wheel having the same vertica travel, has less lateral movement with the larger radiushttp://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u9/maddmatt02/scrubradius.jpg

ThePhantomRider
05-28-2007, 09:05 PM
Ok the Shocks are made by KYB....they are listed in each chapter of the story so to speak. Each segment has a tech page that tells all the specs.

That said, rear travel is 10.5 inches using a rising rate rear suspension design.

Look it up for yourselves.


TPR

54warrior
05-29-2007, 06:20 AM
It simply amazes me how everyone cries for more more more, then whenever they get it, all they do is B*&^ and moan even more. The same thing happened in 2001 with the Cannondale's. They show up with an awesome machine (yes it had it's quirk's, but was an awesome machine, regardless). The same exact thing is happening now. Can-Am spends countless hours correcting known problems with the design/engineering of our machines that have existed for years and all anyone can do is complain about it

Instead of embracing this machine, the majority just wants to tear it to shreds. Personally, I feel they have made some major breakthrough's. I hope these machines come out and dominate- forcing the "big 4" to finally make something that one might consider "breathtaking". Sure the current crop of 450's are great machines, but are far from what I would consider modern from a design/engineering standpoint. Can-Am is setting a new precedent when it comes to 450's and they are going to leave their mark on this segment. Fortunately, they have the financial resources to remain viable (unlike C'Dale) and it would appear as though the necessary R&D has been done on this machine before it is being released (again unlike C'Dale). I doubt that the new Can-Am will experience the growing pains that the C'Dale's went through.

rpyfz450
05-29-2007, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by bsmith106 The other part is the king pin angle. Lots of kingpin angle makes the tires lean as you steer giving less traction. this quad has less and i expect it to be a very precise steering machine. [/B]

I'm skeptical about this design. Years ago I wondered how manufacturers could get away with only having one steering knuckle inside the wheel, but now I have more appreciation for it. With the typical king pin angle seen on most ATVs, the steering axis is placed very close to the centerline of the tire. I wouldn't be too surprised if Can-Am's new approach to king pin angles doesn't yield much advantage.

Can-Am definitely recognizes the value of lowered unsprung weight. Even if the steering isn't much better on the DS450, the unsprung weight will likely make a noticeable performance difference.

Toadz400
05-29-2007, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by 54warrior
It simply amazes me how everyone cries for more more more, then whenever they get it, all they do is B*&^ and moan even more. The same thing happened in 2001 with the Cannondale's. They show up with an awesome machine (yes it had it's quirk's, but was an awesome machine, regardless). The same exact thing is happening now. Can-Am spends countless hours correcting known problems with the design/engineering of our machines that have existed for years and all anyone can do is complain about it

Instead of embracing this machine, the majority just wants to tear it to shreds. Personally, I feel they have made some major breakthrough's. I hope these machines come out and dominate- forcing the "big 4" to finally make something that one might consider "breathtaking". Sure the current crop of 450's are great machines, but are far from what I would consider modern from a design/engineering standpoint. Can-Am is setting a new precedent when it comes to 450's and they are going to leave their mark on this segment. Fortunately, they have the financial resources to remain viable (unlike C'Dale) and it would appear as though the necessary R&D has been done on this machine before it is being released (again unlike C'Dale). I doubt that the new Can-Am will experience the growing pains that the C'Dale's went through.

Hit the nail on the head.

bsmith106
05-29-2007, 08:48 PM
If you draw a line through both ball joints and extend it to where it hits the ground plane, the king pin inclination is the angle that the ball joint line makes with the ground. The scrub radius is the distance from the ball joint line to the centerline of the tire. Scrub radius is measurment taken from the steering system, the control arms could be 10 inches long or ten feet, it would have zero affect on the scrub radius. King pin inclination, hub face projection, wheel offset and distance to the ground plane all affect scrub radius. You are talking about tire aka suspension scrub. Two different things. that was the point of my second post. There is alot of confusion when talking about all of this. I know the difference between bump steer and handlebar/steering feedback but alot of posts are calling it the same thing. Just like tire/suspension scrub and steering scrub/scrub radius. For an illustration go to ********.com and check out the front suspension video, there is a chart on the back wall that shows what I mean. Hope im not coming of as rude or a know it all. Im about as far from knowing everything as a guy could be. RPYFZ. Im skeptical too. I do think the design is superior but a better design wont work any better without testing and tuning. I dont think the steering effort is going to be a night and day difference , some will think it is leaps and bounds ahead and others may not notice it at all. Kind of like changing front wheel offset. Most people seem to prefer the 4+ 1 offset I think this will feel like a 5+ 0 because of the knuckle design. There are alot of small improvements being made here and sometimes small improvements yield big dividends.

maddmatt02
05-29-2007, 11:08 PM
straight out of the mouth of a can am engineer product manager "we have the least amount of scrub possible in a 46" bike, why?, because we have the longest a arm of any 46" bike"

right there tells you that a arm length has an effect, and if you watch the video and look at the radius they draw as the tire moves laterally with travel, no way can the radius of a circle with that arc be only a few inches, which would be the measurement between the ball joints and the center of the wheel.

I can get what your saying about the distance between the ball joints and the wheel because in the steering, then yes the center point is the ball joint line, and the radius would be the distance from there to a measurement at the wheel. however ive never been referring to the steering systems scrub radius, ive never heard of the steering systems movement labeled as scrub, ive only personally heard of suspension scrub, which is what i was referring to, as such I was referring to the scrub radius of the suspension. because thats what the can am dude was talking about, and we are here talking about the can am and he never once said the word scruc when referring to the short spindle design. I know thats why those front wheel spacers are a joke though, just never heard the term scrub radius assoiated with steering, so we are both correct as long as we know what each other is talking about... :D

bsmith106
05-30-2007, 04:22 AM
watch that front suspension video one more time on the ds450 website. Listen to what he says when they do the close up of the chart behind him right around three minutes into the video. Really I agree we are both right. you say tomato i say tomoto. I am glad this did not turn into a stupid bashing session you see so much on the net.

maddmatt02
05-30-2007, 07:24 AM
only thing i saw behind him at 3 minute mark was a poster of someone riding, then its all jeremy talking.

rpyfz450
05-30-2007, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by maddmatt02
straight out of the mouth of a can am engineer product manager "we have the least amount of scrub possible in a 46" bike, why?, because we have the longest a arm of any 46" bike"

right there tells you that a arm length has an effect, and if you watch the video and look at the radius they draw as the tire moves laterally with travel,

The scrub they're talking about takes places as the suspension comresses. The scrub we're talking about is has to do with steering, not the suspension.

maddmatt02
05-30-2007, 05:06 PM
aha I see, it was just since we are talking about the can am web site and video releases I just figured we were talking about what they were talking about. didnt even realize there was a "we" in the discussion of the steering having scrub, only knew he had mentioned it and no one else.

bsmith106
05-30-2007, 05:28 PM
sorry, check the ds 450 front suspension video at another atv website. I tried to type the name but it must be spamming. ill try to tell u about the" ATV" site without making a "SCENE". I am not trying to spam just to show my point. read between the lines

Toadz400
05-30-2007, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by bsmith106
sorry, check the ds 450 front suspension video at another atv website. I tried to type the name but it must be spamming. ill try to tell u about the" ATV" site without making a "SCENE". I am not trying to spam just to show my point. read between the lines

So are you going to tell us the website or not?:p

bsmith106
05-31-2007, 04:30 AM
To anyone who cares about this, and is still unsure about the terms, just google the words scrub radius. See what comes up. If nothing else, maybe we ignited a spark of interest, enough to make people do a little research and learn for themselves. P.S. check with the society of automotive engineers SAE for short. Dont doubt me son lol