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swampfoxsc
05-15-2007, 09:32 AM
Here's a new frame picture that hasn't been posted yet. It clearly shows that the side frame rails are removeable in order to get the engine out. The fasteners are differnet if you look closely at the red circles. Also, you can see that the top a-arms mount similar to the YFZ top a-arms. There is one long bolt that holds them in. This is indicated by the blue line.

parkers30
05-15-2007, 09:43 AM
That answers alot of questions!

I am suprised how many other fasteners on that particular frame look like bolts not the lock fasteners:

1. upper a-arm mounts appear to be bolted at the bottom and the other fastener at the top.

2. The very top of the frame also appears to be all bolted bolted (<-suprising)

3. the subframe (expected)

ThePhantomRider
05-15-2007, 10:13 AM
Probably pickup points for pieces that have yet to be revealed. Things that would need to be removed for various reasons.


TPR

bigbadbubba
05-15-2007, 10:34 AM
Those bolts you circle in red, can not be removed. They are the same bolts used to fasten all the other ones down also.

swampfoxsc
05-15-2007, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by bigbadbubba
Those bolts you circle in red, can not be removed. They are the same bolts used to fasten all the other ones down also.


Can you confirm that statement with proof?:confused:

54warrior
05-15-2007, 12:05 PM
Where'd you find that picture at??? Are there more? Is that the finished look or will it be a raw aluminum type?

Looks like those bolts are removable to me.

yamadjs08
05-15-2007, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by bigbadbubba
Those bolts you circle in red, can not be removed. They are the same bolts used to fasten all the other ones down also. How do you know this?

From the pictures it clearly looks like a normal bolt and nut compared to the other fasteners shown. It also looks like that top rail is just normally bolted on.

bigbadbubba
05-15-2007, 03:05 PM
Because at Montgomery ville cycle they have a frame there on display.

JMann2380
05-15-2007, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by bigbadbubba
Because at Montgomery ville cycle they have a frame there on display.

Really? I went to thier site and it doesn't even show them as a Can-Am dealer. When was it on display? Was it just the frame?

Fred55
05-15-2007, 04:44 PM
theres more pics over at the scene in the forums and it does show the peices are removable! they are regular allen head bolts.

bigbadbubba
05-15-2007, 05:53 PM
In there shop they had one on a stand, with a can am poster.... they may be becoming a dealer now that they opened up more models then before.

motox450
05-15-2007, 06:41 PM
After looking at the high-res frame photos the center members are held in with allen head bolts and are removable. This makes perfect sense and again I applaud Can-Am for the outside the box thinking.

bsmith106
05-15-2007, 08:58 PM
the "lock bolts" look very similar to the huck bolts I have used at work. The gun used to install them looks like an air rvet tool and costs around $4k.

parkers30
05-16-2007, 07:21 AM
All of the fasteners that look different are indeed bolts as showing in photos on atv nation and the scene.

don_carallo
05-16-2007, 09:37 AM
..i hope this frame be better than the Outlander 800 frame..:rolleyes:

ThePhantomRider
05-16-2007, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by bsmith106
the "lock bolts" look very similar to the huck bolts I have used at work. The gun used to install them looks like an air rvet tool and costs around $4k.

They are similar, though what happens with the lock bolts is that the machine strectches the bolt so it's a bit thinner than relaxed, the "nut" is installed and then tension is released causing the bolt to expand in the nut creating a true mechanical bond. The excess is snipped off clean and well there you have it.

If this tech didn't work, aircraft builders would not be using them, and nothing structural is welded on a plane.


TPR

parkers30
05-16-2007, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
They are similar, though what happens with the lock bolts is that the machine strectches the bolt so it's a bit thinner than relaxed, the "nut" is installed and then tension is released causing the bolt to expand in the nut creating a true mechanical bond. The excess is snipped off clean and well there you have it.

If this tech didn't work, aircraft builders would not be using them, and nothing structural is welded on a plane.


TPR


I think you need to read up on read up on Huck Bolts a bit. They are the exact same thing. No one eve said they did not work.

ThePhantomRider
05-16-2007, 03:17 PM
Oh, ok if they are the same thing then that's cool!

As for if they fail or not, I have read here and other places people thinking they will fail, loosen or hog out the holes and I just don't see that happening.

TPR

ThePhantomRider
05-16-2007, 03:42 PM
In response to Parker's post...Huck Magna-Grip Lock Bolt (http://www.jpcspecialties.com/huck/magna-grip_lockbolt.pdf)

Dead on right!

Regarded as having the best locking force in the biz and highest vibration tolerance.


TPR

parkers30
05-16-2007, 04:45 PM
:muscle:

Pretty cool stuff huh?

I think the main point of him bring up the Huck bolts was to bring in a comparison of cost to install a $4k is not something dealers are going to be buying

bsmith106
05-17-2007, 09:36 PM
Yeah i dont think every dealer is going to run out and buy the tool to install them but on the same token a good tig welder is in the same price range. These fasteners do hold very tightly. The first time i ever used the tool i put my finger on the backside of the bolt to hold it tight. The bolt broke and put a nice blood blister on my finger in about one second. They are very strong though. One other consideration is manufacturing time. I would guess they can snap one of these frames together in less than five minutes. It is nice to see some inovative thinking. Not trying to bash anyone but the japanese 450s seem too much alike. The big four are known refiners, they take the same concept and put there own spin on it. I too, would like to see them offer a two stroke powered machine. I bet they could slice 15 lbs off the bike easy, in a simpler more compact package. Make mine a kickstart six speed with electronic reverse and sdi in either 300 or 400ccs. Even so i am still excited to see this machine.

54warrior
05-18-2007, 07:35 AM
I see a wave rotor! And possible a large fuel pump??

Also, is it safe to assume that the black is hard-anodized??

woodsracer144
05-19-2007, 09:55 PM
then bolt in cross bars are the dumbest thing .... a pain in the @ss to work on...and every quad is gonna need some workin to it.

ThePhantomRider
05-20-2007, 04:53 AM
Good grief woodsracer, I felt bad in another post for questioning your gramatical and spelling skills, but the statement you just made is about the most misinformed comment in all these discussions so far.

Those side rails use 4 bolts to stay in and you can pull the motor out just as fast as any other 450 even with them in there.

They are key to the triangulation of the frame and it's strength and if you can't wrap your mind around that then you should stay away from frame design as you mentioned in another thread.

TPR

woodsracer144
05-20-2007, 09:50 AM
ok i know that there on there for extra strength, but i dont thing that 4 bolts will hold as well as a weld, and its as much or more of a pain in the @ss to have to take them off to work on your motor when you can build your frame around it, will all the people i know that race their eather losein bolt, or breaking them off,
I've been around this kind of stuff where i could undrstand it and work on it my self since i was 9-10 with my brother on his wheeler,
i knwo that all racers want some that they can work on fast and easy, taking of 20 millon bolts to work on something isnt helping you become faster when in some races you run non-stop for 2-12 hours...
im not tring to become a pain to every one and i know my typeing skills arent that great but im making do with what i can, i try my best and i work hard to get what i have, i dont have a mom and dad that stand their and help me out like most of you
i think that the most i help i get is from by buddy and his cusin and dad. im sorry to you fir making it a pain for me to post m/o

i'll just shut up so when i think that i can help some one out then i dont have to..
thank i didnt know that your a know it all,

armoks
05-20-2007, 10:10 AM
http://www.iespell.com/

bigbadbubba
05-20-2007, 03:19 PM
I agree with him, It would suck having to get to part of the motor that the frame is in front of...... think baja.. those people change things in less then 2 minutes now you just added 2 minutes to take off part of the frame..... more hassle less innovation is in my point of view.

woodsracer144
05-20-2007, 06:38 PM
thanks bubba!

bigbadbubba
05-20-2007, 07:21 PM
yeah, i just see this thing haveing major problems with the races, not so much the rec riders though.

54warrior
05-20-2007, 07:36 PM
I don't understand why everyone is making such a big deal out of these side frame rails. It's a maximum of four bolts/side. That's EIGHT bolts. A good ratchet man can have those removed in a few minutes. It's not really that big of deal.

ThePhantomRider
05-20-2007, 11:51 PM
You should have to only remove one side to remove the motor, not both like many are saying.

That said, I'd take the triangualtion strength with the side rails and add maybe 1 minute to engine removal time than have the same old same old thing over and over.

Change is difficult but when people start winning on this, the discussions will start to die down.

TPR

bigbadbubba
05-21-2007, 06:46 AM
A "good" change shouldn't add time or cause hassle....... Then its just making something different and adding your own flair.... nothing good comes of it.

jmoney45
05-21-2007, 10:04 AM
If it makes the frame stronger and lighter than who cares if it takes a couple more bolts to get the engine out. At least these guys are thinking outside the box and actually improving on the current designs. I think that's awesome for this sport.

ThePhantomRider
05-21-2007, 01:08 PM
Plus for all the dune and show guys, get the center cradle and side rails polished against the black frame....gotta look sweet!!!


TPR

bigbadbubba
05-21-2007, 02:09 PM
It's just as strong as a squad frame... so its not stronger.... and thinking out side the box to improve something would make it easier and stronger not just as strong......

ThePhantomRider
05-21-2007, 02:47 PM
Ok, let's clarify, the new DS should not need any mods frame wise to race.

It's lighter, stronger and stiffer than other stock frames.

Jeremy Schell has not broken a frame since he started testing.

Just last week he broke his TRX 450 race gussetted frame after only 3 races.

It is better.

Now where's that dead horse, I need to beat it a few more times.

TPR

armoks
05-21-2007, 02:52 PM
TPR whatever you do in the privacy of you're own house is fine don't be bringing it on the forums LOL:huh

bigbadbubba
05-21-2007, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Ok, let's clarify, the new DS should not need any mods frame wise to race.

It's lighter, stronger and stiffer than other stock frames.

Jeremy Schell has not broken a frame since he started testing.

Just last week he broke his TRX 450 race gussetted frame after only 3 races.

It is better.

Now where's that dead horse, I need to beat it a few more times.

TPR
you know it dosn't need any mods how??? you built it?

stiffer??? what does stiffness have to do with anything.... no frame is "soft to the touch"

jeremy schell isn't all that great.... why didn't they put gust, byrd, wimmer or any one of those no it???

maybe he came down or cased a jump to break it you never know......

woodsracer144
05-21-2007, 03:46 PM
my vote is still its dumb, you can make the frame stonfer in other ways,

ThePhantomRider
05-21-2007, 04:18 PM
Ok I've said my peace, again beating a dead horse here. I guess the bottom line will be in a year from now when people of all walks of life have ridden wrecked and raced these things for us to see the proof in the pudding.

And I definately don't want a stonfer frame...

TPR

OutlawBill
05-21-2007, 04:37 PM
TBR I want one for my DS650:D

ThePhantomRider
05-21-2007, 04:59 PM
Stonfer frames I hear are made from twigs and berries using a basket weave design.

It's light, the materials are actually bonded together using a weaving method handed down from the Navajo Indians many moons ago.

The rigidity is from soaking said frame in berry juice for not longer than 2 blue corn moons to insure proper saturation, then it's dried on a granite rock for at least 30 days of 90° or more which is the variable that makes production times guesses at best.

They do make them for the DS 650, though you may want to opt for the Oak twigs as they are much more sturdy.

TPR

PlayHard
05-21-2007, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by bigbadbubba
you know it dosn't need any mods how??? you built it?

stiffer??? what does stiffness have to do with anything.... no frame is "soft to the touch"

jeremy schell isn't all that great.... why didn't they put gust, byrd, wimmer or any one of those no it???

maybe he came down or cased a jump to break it you never know......

Is this guy serious? You should stop posting for real.

Real testing during racing season next year will tell the story. I think the innovation is great. Lets see how it holds up in the MX and GNCC circuit before judging. I'd say that CanAm has the right mindset here that they want to go for it all. You have to take risks to get there. If they copied everyone else, you would complain that they copied everyone else.

We live/ride in a great time with all the big players putting out new innovation one after another for sport quads. The competition will cause everyone to step up even further.

There are 7 new sport quads worthy of racing that will be put out within 18 months ('07 Honda 450, '07 YFZ450, Zuke 450, Kawi 450, Outlaw 525, DS450, and KTM525XC). Can you believe the days we live in compared to even 5 years ago?

ThePhantomRider
05-21-2007, 05:55 PM
In 1997 we had the Banshee, Blaster, 300ex and Mojave for our new performance quads.

Otherwise you had to do used for any one of the 250's

New quads are good, manufacturers that push the envelope make this an even better sport.


TPR

CannondaleRider
05-21-2007, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by bigbadbubba
you know it dosn't need any mods how??? you built it?

stiffer??? what does stiffness have to do with anything.... no frame is "soft to the touch"

jeremy schell isn't all that great.... why didn't they put gust, byrd, wimmer or any one of those no it???

maybe he came down or cased a jump to break it you never know......

Wow.....


The frame is structurally stiffer, and the forces are better distributed throughout the frame, so it won't break/crack quite as easy. Unlike any of the other frames, which have had problems with breaking, in usually the exact same spots. Spots that have to much force put to them, because the frame doesn't distribute the forces right.

As for Jeremy.......Have you ever seen him ride? Being from PA, I can basically guarantee you haven't. I see him ride all the time, at least once a month. I pit next to Epic, and have multiple teammates who compete right along with Jeremy. I sometimes take the job as the Team Money$hot photographer, which lets me go WAY out into the cool/crazy terrain that nobody else gets to see, I see Jeremy out there. I've been lapped by Jeremy before........SO, I’ve seen his abilities.......until YOU have seen his abilities, you have no room to say "he isn't all that great", because you are f**king clueless.

protraxrptr17
05-21-2007, 06:45 PM
Some people just can't handle something totally new and different. Doesn't matter if you explain how it's better in words or on paper. This way of thinking had alot to do with Cannondale's demise.(another dead horse) If this bike has just a very small problem with anything, it will get flogged the same way. I just hope it doesn't. The technology in our sport is very primitive. We have so far to go. The only real "new" stuff has come from advances in 4-stroke engines. Everything else is basically the same as it was almost 20 years ago.


I'm sure when the first cars came out people were saying "Them thar newfangled contraptions ain't never goan work. Takes too long to git em cranked, and you got to put gas in em. Probly git a flat tar too. I'll just keep mah horse and buggy."

jmoney45
05-21-2007, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by bigbadbubba
It's just as strong as a squad frame... so its not stronger.... and thinking out side the box to improve something would make it easier and stronger not just as strong......

Just as strong? Why would they go to all those lengths to make it just as strong? And even if it is just as strong it is 5 pounds lighter than the competition. That's innovation. Why are you so quick to bash something? I'm not a Can Am fan but I have to give props where they are due. You would too if you had a clue.

bigbadbubba
05-21-2007, 07:44 PM
5 pounds dosn't do anything.... stick some one thats 150 pounds on that bike then stick some one thats 155 pounds on that bike.... notice the small amount of diffrence. i'm not bashing it, you guys are just getting so worked up over it, and it probably wont be all that great.....

people got worked up over the kawi but now its just old news..... it isn't that innovating it already has really waht this has other then the "inovating new bolts to hold the frame together" instead of welds.... big deal. I'm not bashing i'm just stating a oponion everyone has one i just choose to say mine out loud. ....

jmoney45
05-21-2007, 07:51 PM
Here's a little tip for you. Next time keep your "oponion" to yourself.

Toadz400
05-21-2007, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by jmoney45
Here's a little tip for you. Next time keep your "oponion" to yourself.

I think it'd be best if we just ignored their posts. We should always respect people's opinions and "oponion's" and we should do the same with the people disagreeing with us and fighting us all the way. Let's just agree to disagree with them and in the end we'll see who's right. There's only one way to find out and that's when the DS450 is released for the public and we truely see what it's capable of.

I for one am very excited to see this kind of innovation with a quad coming from a company such as Can-Am. We saw a lot of innovation with the Cannondales but they didn't have the funding and R&D that Can-Am is capable of producing.

velocityatv
06-01-2007, 12:43 PM
Bolting instead of welding is great idea!! :muscle:

Frame strength is based on how much the metal can flex, and still return to it's original shape. Trust me, when a rider comes up short on a double and cases it, you can bet your boots that your frame is flexing.

Metal has what some call "memory." Metal, depending on how it's forged, can flex and return to it's original shape. Applying heat to metal can reduce or change the overall "memory."

The problem with frame building, until now, was that when you placed two sections together you used a weld. Welding applies heat to an area so that the two pieces of metal can be permanantly joined. The "problem" with welding is that the weld is now stronger than the metal you've fused together. That is why geometry is so important in frame building. Putting unwanted stress in an area can cause fatigue and failure (cracking).

Bolting the frame together can help remove that stress. With no heat applied the metal can retain it's "memory" and flex. In a perfect design you'd want, to some degree, any impact taken by the frame to be evenly distributed to ALL points of the frame. This relaxes high stress points that you would see commonly break.

I work for a Freightliner truck dealer. The class 8 semi trucks running down the road now a days have been using these Huck style bolts for years. Believe me, if the trucking and aviation industry use these, there is a reason. A broke down truck is not making any money.

I think this DS450 has a great design. Like someone posted earlier. Great job "thinking outside the box." The bolt-in sides are a great design. Where they are placed is not going to be in the way of any major components that you'd replace very rapidly anyhow. It looks to pass right next to cylinder. And with fuel injection there is no need to have your hands in there adjusting a carb.

velocityatv
06-01-2007, 12:43 PM
:D

woodsracer144
06-01-2007, 05:06 PM
its a ok idea but i dont care what it is a bolt will break... my dads a trucker too.. but i dont think that this is good of an idea, i think a weld would hold better... its m/o you can think what you what but i still think that is a pain to work around or it will be

ThePhantomRider
06-01-2007, 05:10 PM
Hey you can have your opinion, at least you were not being jerky about it.

Nothing's 100% fool proof, but this should be no less durable than any welded frame.


TPR

woodsracer144
06-01-2007, 05:16 PM
yeah every thing has the + and then the -, there was a kid at my school that said yz 125 was all that and i bet the mine quad kids could beat him in a race, and out teacher said every bike or quad has it goods and bads its keeping up with them all is what wins the race, he was the pit crew for a stock car race team for a long time then went to teaching, but to the fame part now.
i think its a good idea and stuff, but i'm always breaking off bolts. i think its cool if you bens something you can replace it easy, and all that but im not the biggest can am fan and stuff.
i thin tgeting all the weight in the right sopts for them was a great thing for them... but i just dont like the frame... i would have to see a pic as it is when its all done and finished