Tps Test........its Here

[buck naked-r]

i did a back to back test with the tps pluged in and unpluged

one run is in rpm's and the other is in time
this is on a 05 trx with a 06 40mm FCR carb

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0508Image0001.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o101/buck450/2006_0508Image0004.jpg

[pro-rider46]

what do u all have done to it to make that crazy horsepower

[charger90]

i think he meant 58 hp not 68

[pro-rider46]

still thats alot of horsepower compared to the stock 38

[buck naked-r]

its a 480

14.8 compression 97mm cp/venom piston
FCI intake
stage-3 hot cam
43.25mm FCR carb
ported head by me
dasa pipe

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by charger90
i think he meant 58 hp not 68

I believe that they are two different bikes, the 68hp is correct.



Buck naked - good info.

[chad502ex]

Com'on buck...

disconnecting the TPS, then performing another WOT throttle dyno run is not going to differentiate the two conditions as your reporting...


If you had an understanding of the electronic ignition module (CDI), then you would have known that the CDI defaults to a WOT curve when disconnected- so essentially you've performed the same WOT dyno pull here in your test....

no offense Buck, I commend your effort, but you should have researched before you assumed that the CDI would be providing different spark conditions by removing the TPS (on WOT).

PLEASE FOLLOW carefully: When the dyno operator triggers the test run for sampling, stabbing the throttle with the TPS connected, the CDI outputs the "WOT" ignition curve. The CDI would output the same WOT ignition curve if the TPS is disconnected.

Additionally, performing a timed dyno run must be a triggered dyno pull. I'm not sure if the dyno operator has the dyno triggered, but if he didn't the time run would also be useless.

Back to the CDI, there are three ignition curves programmed into the CDI:
1. A closed throttle curve
2. A partial throttle curve
3. A full throttle curve

Performing a dyno test with the throttle wide open is the same as disconnecting the TPS......

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
Com'on buck...

disconnecting the TPS, then performing another WOT throttle dyno run is not going to differentiate the two conditions as your reporting...


If you had an understanding of the electronic ignition module (CDI), then you would have known that the CDI defaults to a WOT curve when disconnected- so essentially you've performed the same WOT dyno pull here in your test....

no offense Buck, I commend your effort, but you should have researched before you assumed that the CDI would be providing different spark conditions by removing the TPS (on WOT).

PLEASE FOLLOW carefully: When the dyno operator triggers the test run for sampling, stabbing the throttle with the TPS connected, the CDI outputs the "WOT" ignition curve. The CDI would output the same WOT ignition curve if the TPS is disconnected.

Additionally, performing a timed dyno run must be a triggered dyno pull. I'm not sure if the dyno operator has the dyno triggered, but if he didn't the time run would also be useless.

Back to the CDI, there are three ignition curves programmed into the CDI:
1. A closed throttle curve
2. A partial throttle curve
3. A full throttle curve

Performing a dyno test with the throttle wide open is the same as disconnecting the TPS......


touche'

[buck naked-r]

this test was done BACK TO BACK bike was not even shut off

did one pull with it pluged in then did another with it unplug



THEN I PLUGED IT RIGHT BACK IN

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
this test was done BACK TO BACK bike was not even shut off

did one pull with it pluged in then did another with it unplug



THEN I PLUGED IT RIGHT BACK IN
read my post above ^^^

this test is BS.. the TPS pulled and the TPS not pulled is the same condition on WOT.... is that clear enough or do you need sandpaper to understand?

this is wasting ppls time reading a test that makes ZERO sense.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
read my post above ^^^

this test is BS.. the TPS pulled and the TPS not pulled is the same condition on WOT.... is that clear enough or do you need sandpaper to understand?

this is wasting ppls time reading a test that makes ZERO sense.

Actually I knew this, but never put 2 and 2 together. This is what is thought to cause some of the cracked cases. The TPS sensor goes bad causing the CDI to think it is WOT, and kickback occurs... and we all know how this ends. I wonder if there is any truth to this thought. In which case I would recommend buck-naked R to take a look at his case to make sure it hasn't cracked from the kicker.

[ghott]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Actually I knew this, but never put 2 and 2 together. This is what is thought to cause some of the cracked cases. The TPS sensor goes bad causing the CDI to think it is WOT, and kickback occurs... and we all know how this ends. I wonder if there is any truth to this thought. In which case I would recommend buck-naked R to take a look at his case to make sure it hasn't cracked from the kicker.

Good points...

But I believe I've seen buck post on another forum that he always runs his bike with the TPS plugged in...the only time he unplugged it was for this one run.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by ghott
Good points...

But I believe I've seen buck post on another forum that he always runs his bike with the TPS plugged in...the only time he unplugged it was for this one run.

Thats all it takes is one WOT kick. My little brother rode my wheeler for one day, without letting me know, he of course hit the gas while kicking it, now I have a cracked case. It was one day of riding, and I doubt he was shutting it off and kicking it over a LOT, though I have no clue when during the day it happened, he kept riding it.:rolleyes:

[Crashmore 22]

Thanks for the post buck. I was thinking about unplugging mine, but I won't now. As to everyone else, why would he make a thread and post two dyno runs just to fool people? Every post that has a dyno run involved it seems like the same people are ALWAYS flaming it!

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Crashmore 22
Thanks for the post buck. I was thinking about unplugging mine, but I won't now. As to everyone else, why would he make a thread and post two dyno runs just to fool people? Every post that has a dyno run involved it seems like the same people are ALWAYS flaming it!

no reason for ignorance with posting test results that isn't accurate.

I don't know which is more ignorant, the test itself, or the one(s) believing the results....

the both of you need some education with programming CDI's and the reasons for TPS circuits.... just because one posts a dyno sheet doesn't make the results meaningful ........

[buck naked-r]

someone is going to end up with his foot in his mouth



4 those that care this test is what it is.........quad was not evne shut off......just unplug and replug............where is it written that the cdi go's to wot........or is this another assumsion


i dont have time to PAY for dyno time thats not real

come on man get a grip

[Crashmore 22]

Originally posted by chad502ex
no reason for ignorance with posting test results that isn't accurate.

I don't know which is more ignorant, the test itself, or the one(s) believing the results....

the both of you need some education with programming CDI's and the reasons for TPS circuits.... just because one posts a dyno sheet doesn't make the results meaningful ........

I've never commented directly on your posts, but every time someone posts a dyno graph you feel the need to say something about it, it is quite annoying! I can usually look at the title of the tread and know wheather or not you have had some ingenious post in it. Here is a little advice for you... I, as well as many others, have a lot more respect for those with some of the questions as opposed to those thinking they have ALL OF THE ANSWERS. Just because you have put a few engines together doesnt make you God's gift to engines. I have quite a bit of knowledge when it comes to engine and suspension systems but I don't feel the need to try and convince everyone of this. Just so you know I also am a mechanical engineer so please don't under estimate my comprehenision of anything!

[Crashmore 22]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
someone is going to end up with his foot in his mouth



4 those that care this test is what it is.........quad was not evne shut off......just unplug and replug............where is it written that the cdi go's to wot........or is this another assumsion


i dont have time to PAY for dyno time thats not real

come on man get a grip

I appreciate posts like this, I noticed that there is only 60 seconds between dyno runs so a lot couldn't have been done. That guy has issues with anyone that has a high horsepower bike and posts a dyno run to prove it. I think it may be because DRG is a DUD.:cool:

[chris46250r]

Buck, I'm not going to argue this I'm just gonna tell what I do know about TPS. It is a general rule that TPS's do go to WOT when they are unplugged or not powered however you want to call it. I'm speaking from the automotive side of this also, I have no idea about the 450r. If your bike made better with it unplugged by all means run it that way, but based on the theory of the WOT issue I would put it on some kind of switch so you can start it with it plugged in then switch it to off.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Crashmore 22
I appreciate posts like this, I noticed that there is only 60 seconds between dyno runs so a lot couldn't have been done. That guy has issues with anyone that has a high horsepower bike and posts a dyno run to prove it. I think it may be because DRG is a DUD.:cool:

So instead of raggin on people, how about you prove him wrong then by posting some factual information. So far NO ONE has proven anything as far as Im concerned. Can anyone prove or disprove the cdi going to WOT when the TPS is unplugged? As of now chad seems to have the most knowledge on the subject, or at least he is the only one willing to share knowledge. This is a discussion forum, if Chad or ANYONE for that matter wants to put their .02 in on a topic, they are more than welcome. All he said was the CDI goes to WOT. No one has disproven it yet. I could care less who is right or wrong here, I just want to know the answer!:o

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chris46250r
Buck, I'm not going to argue this I'm just gonna tell what I do know about TPS. It is a general rule that TPS's do go to WOT when they are unplugged or not powered however you want to call it. I'm speaking from the automotive side of this also, I have no idea about the 450r. If your bike made better with it unplugged by all means run it that way, but based on the theory of the WOT issue I would put it on some kind of switch so you can start it with it plugged in then switch it to off.

It made more power with the TPS connected just FYI.

[chad502ex]

Ignorant is not a bad word, it simply means that you two lack the knowledge on the subject.. My use of the 'ignorant' word when addressed to you was not so much as an insult, but to clearly describe your absent knowledge on the subject.

Just because someone pays for a mechanical engineer degree, don't mean they understand how to engineer. I'm also an Electrical Engineer by day, so if there is anyone who has more of an understanding of the electrical workings of the CDI in this thread, it's me. I've talked extensively to Dynatek on the programming of the CDI's, who are also considered experts on the subject. I've build more 450R's than you've seen, and go into areas that even you as an mechanical engineer havn't even thought of yet.

As for me commenting on dyno runs? I do provide kudos when the power is deserved. If you would have researched, I've also made kudos remarks to Buck on his 480cc power in the dyno section. Trust me, that his 480 power is one of the better ones out there on that displacement.

That being said, let me reiterate what is meant by the CDI going to WOT... let's start from the beginning,.... A TPS is a 5k Ohm variable resistor mounted to the end of the carbs throttle arm.. When the operator pushes the throttle the TPS variable resistor changes resistance, respectively. The CDI samples this changing resistance, and depending on the pre-determined CDI setpoints, the ignition determines which curve of the 3 programmed to output. Ignition setpoints can be programmed into the CDI based on throttle position. Usually, the CDI setpoints are set in three locations throughout the throttle. They are:
1. Closed throttle
2. Partial Throttle (~25%)
3. WOT (~50%)

What this means is that when the operator pushes the throttle from closed (#1) to partial (#2), the CDI will output a new spark ignition timing curve. Same with the #2 position to the #3 position. If the operator pushed the thumb throttle 50% the CDI used the WOT ignition curve timing even though the throttle is not fully WOT. This DOES NOT MEAN that the curve 3 and curve 1 is much different from each other near idle or startup.

The 450R has three programmed ignition curves and is called 3D mapping. The Dynatek ignition modules allow the programmer to change or make their own ignition timing curves, if desired.

Now, back to the test,.... performing a test back-to-back with 12 seconds in between each run only means that the two runs are consistent with removing any abmient, or engine heat soak, conditions from the test results. However, if the base test does not differentiate the two conditions, then the results will be nearly the same. A timed dyno run, as in this test, must be triggered on the computer to start recording when a certain engine rpm is achieved, not when the operator pushes their start button. This is the only way a dyno can perform time based comparisons.

[charger90]

not trying to be an ***, i just noticed that the dyno sheet doesnt even go to 68. one cuts off at 65 the other at 60. thats why i figued he meant 58. but if u say 68 then daamn thats a bad bike.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by charger90
not trying to be an ***, i just noticed that the dyno sheet doesnt even go to 68. one cuts off at 65 the other at 60. thats why i figued he meant 58. but if u say 68 then daamn thats a bad bike.

Both dynos shown are below 60.


Chad - Thanks for the info.

[buck naked-r]

Originally posted by charger90
not trying to be an ***, i just noticed that the dyno sheet doesnt even go to 68. one cuts off at 65 the other at 60. thats why i figued he meant 58. but if u say 68 then daamn thats a bad bike.

that 68/48 was in my sig when i only had 47hp

thats just what im headed for

[chris46250r]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
It made more power with the TPS connected just FYI.

No ***** shurlock, I can read. I just stated IF his made more unplugged to put it on a switch. I dont know what he is shooting for with this idea, but he must be shooting for something. Why else would anybody run a dyno with something unplugged, missing, loose, on backwards........... and think it would be better?

[chad502ex]

oh forgot to answer bucks question,.....


where is it written that the cdi go's to wot

you need to think about the answer to your questioning yourself.....

or rather,.....

what CDI curve out of the three would most likely be the safest ignition curve for the engine to run to rev limit if the TPS were to be disconnected?

Closed throttle curve?
Partial throttle curve?
WOT curve?

Now, do you understand why the dyno test you performed is the same conditions before and after?

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chris46250r
No ***** shurlock, I can read. I just stated IF his made more unplugged to put it on a switch. I dont know what he is shooting for with this idea, but he must be shooting for something. Why else would anybody run a dyno with something unplugged, missing, loose, on backwards........... and think it would be better?

Relax, take a breather, the way you worded it, it just didn't sound like you understood. You stated "If your bike made better power with it unplugged" That's all, just thought you overlooked it....:rolleyes:

[Crashmore 22]

Originally posted by chad502ex
Ignorant is not a bad word, it simply means that you two lack the knowledge on the subject.. My use of the 'ignorant' word when addressed to you was not so much as an insult, but to clearly describe your absent knowledge on the subject.

Just because someone pays for a mechanical engineer degree, don't mean they understand how to engineer. I'm also an Electrical Engineer by day, so if there is anyone who has more of an understanding of the electrical workings of the CDI in this thread, it's me. I've talked extensively to Dynatek on the programming of the CDI's, who are also considered experts on the subject. I've build more 450R's than you've seen, and go into areas that even you as an mechanical engineer havn't even thought of yet.

As for me commenting on dyno runs? I do provide kudos when the power is deserved. If you would have researched, I've also made kudos remarks to Buck on his 480cc power in the dyno section. Trust me, that his 480 power is one of the better ones out there on that displacement.

That being said, let me reiterate what is meant by the CDI going to WOT... let's start from the beginning,.... A TPS is a 5k Ohm variable resistor mounted to the end of the carbs throttle arm.. When the operator pushes the throttle the TPS variable resistor changes resistance, respectively. The CDI samples this changing resistance, and depending on the pre-determined CDI setpoints, the ignition determines which curve of the 3 programmed to output. Ignition setpoints can be programmed into the CDI based on throttle position. Usually, the CDI setpoints are set in three locations throughout the throttle. They are:
1. Closed throttle
2. Partial Throttle (~25%)
3. WOT (~50%)

What this means is that when the operator pushes the throttle from closed (#1) to partial (#2), the CDI will output a new spark ignition timing curve. Same with the #2 position to the #3 position. If the operator pushed the thumb throttle 50% the CDI used the WOT ignition curve timing even though the throttle is not fully WOT. This DOES NOT MEAN that the curve 3 and curve 1 is much different from each other near idle or startup.

The 450R has three programmed ignition curves and is called 3D mapping. The Dynatek ignition modules allow the programmer to change or make their own ignition timing curves, if desired.

Now, back to the test,.... performing a test back-to-back with 12 seconds in between each run only means that the two runs are consistent with removing any abmient, or engine heat soak, conditions from the test results. However, if the base test does not differentiate the two conditions, then the results will be nearly the same. A timed dyno run, as in this test, must be triggered on the computer to start recording when a certain engine rpm is achieved, not when the operator pushes their start button. This is the only way a dyno can perform time based comparisons.

I think you are missing my point. You are correct I am not a programer, nor do I wish to be. I don't have a problem with any of the INFORMATION you gave. My problem is, it is quite disrespectful to go onto someone's thread and start bashing him. If people continue to bash everyone for posting something eventually there will not be any useful information posted. Since you have built more engines than I have ever seen, you should take a lesson from the only people that have built the engines that I have seen, if you want to be considered a professional engine builder, your demenor should reflect professionalism. Going on a forum and bashing people is FAR FROM PROFESSIONAL. I've never seen Curtis Sparks or especially Loren Duncan on the internet, trying their best to prove themselves, they let their work speak for them. Again, IT IS BETTER TO HAVE SOME OF THE QUESTIONS AS OPPOSED TO THINKING YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.

[Crashmore 22]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
So instead of raggin on people, how about you prove him wrong then by posting some factual information. So far NO ONE has proven anything as far as Im concerned. Can anyone prove or disprove the cdi going to WOT when the TPS is unplugged? As of now chad seems to have the most knowledge on the subject, or at least he is the only one willing to share knowledge. This is a discussion forum, if Chad or ANYONE for that matter wants to put their .02 in on a topic, they are more than welcome. All he said was the CDI goes to WOT. No one has disproven it yet. I could care less who is right or wrong here, I just want to know the answer!:o

Read and interpret my post above, before you make a decision on my intentions.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Crashmore 22
Read and interpret my post above, before you make a decision on my intentions.

I was referring to your original post. I agree fully with your current post.

The only thing I really like to see, is facts. Plain and simple. If you say he is wrong, then prove it wrong with some factual information, that is all there is to it, and we wouldn't have two pages of bickering now. Though there is still some shreds of useful information on here.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Crashmore 22
I think you are missing my point. You are correct I am not a programer, nor do I wish to be. I don't have a problem with any of the INFORMATION you gave. My problem is, it is quite disrespectful to go onto someone's thread and start bashing him. If people continue to bash everyone for posting something eventually there will not be any useful information posted. Since you have built more engines than I have ever seen, you should take a lesson from the only people that have built the engines that I have seen, if you want to be considered a professional engine builder, your demenor should reflect professionalism. Going on a forum and bashing people is FAR FROM PROFESSIONAL. I've never seen Curtis Sparks or especially Loren Duncan on the internet, trying their best to prove themselves, they let their work speak for them. Again, IT IS BETTER TO HAVE SOME OF THE QUESTIONS AS OPPOSED TO THINKING YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.

you are wasting energy with your rantings.

There is a clear difference to my posting vs yours. In my case, I do have the answers and presented them, and in your case you dont prefer how i choose to address the presentation. Furthermore, I could care less how you think I'm presenting the image of my business. My customer base is centered around performance, not an image.

The information i present is also based on 'facts' through research and testing, building, and further testing. Disconnecting a TPS and not understanding what is really happening isn't meaningful and is rather deceptive. When testing, as I do everyday as an electrical engineer, the test must be clearly defined prior to the start of the tests. This test was just that, not clearly defined between the two tests conditions being that Buck was unaware of the CDI default condition when the TPS is removed. When a test is bogus from the start, someone with clarity on the subject must enlighten the mis-informed, as I did.

You want me to be gentle everytime some beginner publically posts information like hand- sanding cylinders, dremeling carbs, dremeling a port, disconnecting TPS as what the public should be taught as truth? Your concern should be focused more towards him, and not towards the person man enough to set straight the facts to the peeps. ...or...is it just because you believe the results are true?

[buck naked-r]

Originally posted by chad502ex
you are wasting energy with your rantings.

.

You want me to be gentle everytime some beginner publically posts information like hand- sanding cylinders, dremeling carbs, dremeling a port, disconnecting TPS as what the public should be taught as truth? Your concern should be focused more towards him, and not towards the person man enough to set straight the facts to the peeps. ...or...is it just because you believe the results are true?

call it what you want but IT WORKS AND MAKES POWER

but your right and you know whats best.......thats why all your builds make sooo much power.......even your big 550


beginner ???....get real

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
call it what you want but IT WORKS AND MAKES POWER

but your right and you know whats best.......thats why all your builds make sooo much power.......even your big 550


beginner ???....get real


When you say "it works and makes power" what are you referring to, leaving it plugged in?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
call it what you want but IT WORKS AND MAKES POWER

but your right and you know whats best.......thats why all your builds make sooo much power.......even your big 550



buck, when you can make 64/43 on 9:1 no exotic fuel as I have, then come talk...


You've taken this one small TESTS of yours personal to respond as you have. Up to this point I didn't think much of your responses, but now there seems to be a pattern of hostility in your lash-backs... Don't act surprised that I'm not the only one saying this, there are plenty others who have responded as I have on other forums about this tests. Instead of you listening and agreeing that this tests should to be redone, your feebleminded response is to try to lash back personally at me as if your digging deep into my soul, or something. Typical juvenile response. You can't articulate a technically supported response so you lash back personally... :rolledeyes:

I use to enjoy your progress showing the world that you can hand-sand cylinders, dremel bore carbs, dremel port/polish, and bolt together mods, but now its become a disappointment to see your response to technical reasoning....

Good luck, were finished.

[buck naked-r]

Originally posted by chad502ex
buck, when you can make 64/43 on 9:1 no exotic fuel as I have, then come talk...

:

I use to enjoy your progress showing the world that you can hand-sand cylinders, dremel bore carbs, dremel port/polish, and bolt together mods, but now its become a disappointment to see your response to technical reasoning....

Good luck, were finished.

do you remind [yourself] of anyone ?

for you to not know about hand sanding a cylinder tells me something
your the beginner

i build and rebuild ALLLLL TYPE OF [ORV] not just one
just because i just started posting it on the net DOES NOT mean i just started
my carb has made the MOST power ive seen from just a bore job

and i won't comment on my porting

but by all means keep trying to bealittle me and watch what happens

64hp on a 530cc turbo is nothing to brag about

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by buck naked-r
do you remind [yourself] of anyone ?

for you to not know about hand sanding a cylinder tells me something
your the beginner

i build and rebuild ALLLLL TYPE OF [ORV] not just one
just because i just started posting it on the net DOES NOT mean i just started
my carb has made the MOST power ive seen from just a bore job

and i won't comment on my porting

but by all means keep trying to bealittle me and watch what happens

64hp on a 530cc turbo is nothing to brag about

That was without the turbo. Just FYI

[450rJam]

sometimes ego gets you there,
sometimes it just gets in the way.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
That was without the turbo. Just FYI

you got that right,...;) 120hp with the turbo.