New build = 543

[hdwrench]

I have been looking over tons of kits for big bore. And after speaking with Cam at Venom I am in the process of building a 543. It will have the new Hot Rods crank, a new cylinder( not stock sleeved) at 101mm. I plan on keeping the HRC cam. I will do the head myself here in the shop. And run 13.1 compression. I think I sgould be able to use pump fuel with a splash of race fuel to keep things simple fuel wise. The bike is a 04 so I have wanted to toss the stock crank and do the bearing update anyways. SO overall should be a nice running set up.

[whiteboycustom]

going with that much i wouldnt ride the line with pump gas, and mixing it at that, yea race gas is expensive but not when u have a high comp piston on pump fuel and the end side goes to shiot, but it is ur quad, i can spend 30-60 dollars a month on fuel, i can buy a 55gal drum of sunoco 104 for $330 bucks, that would last me a year or real close to it

[honda4life72]

it last me a week .... i ride everyday after school :D

[NTPRacing#19]

dont cheap out on fuel. you should build that thing to the fuel your going to run

[chad502ex]

Good luck with your build.

My only advice is that you may want to research others that have had Venom work and see if they are happy before you decide, then look at their test dyno results too....

[czrider263]

Originally posted by chad502ex
Good luck with your build.

My only advice is that you may want to research others that have had Venom work and see if they are happy before you decide, then look at their test dyno results too....

HEHE!

[hdwrench]

Being that I do build engines every day, I am sure that it will run on the mix of rump and race. Running 100% race fuel if you do not need it will only cost you power not the other way around.

If it needs only race fuel not a problem we stock it by the drum. I will start with a 75% pump and 25% race and work from there.

[whiteboycustom]

yea but mixxing fuel is not recommended, its like trying to run aviation gas on the ground, its octane rating is for high altitude so it doesnt have full affect on the ground

and chad502 why dont u show him proof instead of callin venoms work crap, because thats what i gather from ur statement

fckin engine builders i swear --shakes head--

[Benjithx]

Race gas burns slower and will help with engine temps. Their is no way I would run a mix in that kind of a build. The hp difference is almost nothing and especially not something worth risking detonation over.


but hey, you build them everyday...

... but, then why did you have to call Venom?

[hdwrench]

Let me be clear I am buying the parts from him I am doing the work, But it would seem that a few here are a bit testy. I am sure that i can read plugs well enough to handle the fuel issue. As well We are at 5500 ft so with that we can get away with more compression . I will be willing to bet money that I can show you +/- hp loss with over use of race fuel. WE can use my dyno or another your choice.

[chad502ex]

octane requirements is determined by dynamic compression ratio not static compression ratio.

static compression is meaningless to a running engine. Dynamic compression involves valve closing timing.


A/Fr correlated against altitude, and octane requirements with compression ratios are two different discussions jammed into one here...


It is true that over-octaning an engine is not harmful; however, its always the safest method of preventing catastropic failures from occuring...

The only way to determine octane requirements is to calculate dynamic compression, use engine modeling software, or perform a knock index test using knock sensors,... all of which I can do..... hehe...

frkn engine builders,... arggg.

and I can show proof if needed,... if ya really want, look around the net for a Venom/KBR 564cc stroker build that only made 54hp/39tq...

[czrider263]

Originally posted by chad502ex

and I can show proof if needed,... if ya really want, look around the net for a Venom/KBR 564cc stroker build that only made 54hp/39tq...

Yeah if you look some stuff up you will see that the work is bad. Some ported heads did worse than stock. They look good and work bad. Its all show.

[hdwrench]

Chad

Thanks for the info and I enjoyed talking with you.

On the octane we look for a max of 9.7.1 dynamic for the engines we build to run on pump fuel, and of course the dynamic number comes from the amount os static based off the intake closing point. My own ride is 12.7.1 static, with a 10.1 dynamic,I run on pump fuel here is this elevation, ir I ride else where I can opt to load a new map that I have made into the EFI module and then I am clear to run in the AZ heat on pump fuel in the 1500 ft range.


And to be clear my handle tells you what I do. WE own a performance shop for Harleys, we do all work from basic items to full CNC, welded heads, But my area that I work within is HD not Honda, so there is a learning curve, all our modeling software, and 15+ years of experiance is in V-twin work. Some things cross over and are close others are not. Head wise we own several CNC machines fior porting but I really have no time to play with Honda heads. I do what I do best, Again thanks Chad, be talking with you again soon

[chad502ex]

yup- we'll talk soon.

;)

[beany]

And the pissing match is fueled again. But thats just what engine builders do I guess?? Mines great theirs is junk.. Just try and keep this thread on track, I want to learn about this build. Whom ever he does the motor work

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by beany
And the pissing match is fueled again. But thats just what engine builders do I guess?? Mines great theirs is junk.. Just try and keep this thread on track, I want to learn about this build. Whom ever he does the motor work

No- most get along perfectly, and even share info on a daily basis,.. but then again there are some whom call other builders for information like they are some kind of friend then backstab when given the chance.. I've been victim to this particular builders infantile behavior who loves to be part of rumor spreading. My opinion is that obviously they feel threatened to waste energy trying to dispel credibility..

Oh, believe me, there are only a few respectable honest builders out there IMO. I could spend hours typing about all the dirty laundry back room BS of many so-called 'highly visible' builders, but why bother? Even though I feel compelled to lash back at these, it does nothing but sink the entire industry to their level... I think its just them being greedy-kinda like a pack of wolves all hovering around a steak.

hey hdwrench, is this the same in the harley building industry, or is ATV builders some bottom of the barrel type... ? LOL!

Ya know beany, it was you who starting it up...

[hdwrench]

No it is the same in the HD world as well. WE hear and see the same thing. That is the reason I spoke with you, I know HD in and out, we CNC heads every day but Honda is not our bag so I will leave it too you to take care of the head work.

Many think if you can port a head you can port nay head. That is so far from the truth. You and I can go into cross section of port, valve size, type of valve cut. We do full radius 5 radius cut. We sell our head to many other shops that use our port only they finish the head, we are 18 CFM up on each head. With custom seat cutters at over 750 each and over $37,000 in reverse engineering in our heads we know harleys not hondas HA HA

SO in a nutshell yes it is the same all over. In fact some of the biggest names turn out good stuff and very bad stuff. And they tend to not be helpful if there is a issue.

Looking forward to the qoute and a ripping little engine once you are done

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by hdwrench
No it is the same in the HD world as well. WE hear and see the same thing. That is the reason I spoke with you, I know HD in and out, we CNC heads every day but Honda is not our bag so I will leave it too you to take care of the head work.

Many think if you can port a head you can port nay head. That is so far from the truth. You and I can go into cross section of port, valve size, type of valve cut. We do full radius 5 radius cut. We sell our head to many other shops that use our port only they finish the head, we are 18 CFM up on each head. With custom seat cutters at over 750 each and over $37,000 in reverse engineering in our heads we know harleys not hondas HA HA

SO in a nutshell yes it is the same all over. In fact some of the biggest names turn out good stuff and very bad stuff. And they tend to not be helpful if there is a issue.

Looking forward to the qoute and a ripping little engine once you are done

Oh, I havn't forgotten about the quote...

I'll send real soon, real busy now... you did say in a couple of weeks from now right?

[beany]

Inadvertently I may have, and I apoligize for that. Now on with thenm build. Chad you know I have respect, for the people with the knowledge.

[chad502ex]

hdwrench- PM sent..

[trx520chk]

Originally posted by hdwrench
I have been looking over tons of kits for big bore. And after speaking with Cam at Venom I am in the process of building a 543. It will have the new Hot Rods crank, a new cylinder( not stock sleeved) at 101mm. I plan on keeping the HRC cam. I will do the head myself here in the shop. And run 13.1 compression. I think I sgould be able to use pump fuel with a splash of race fuel to keep things simple fuel wise. The bike is a 04 so I have wanted to toss the stock crank and do the bearing update anyways. SO overall should be a nice running set up.

Ok boys, I'm staying out of your 'pissing match' as someone called it... but I am going to put in my 2 cents about the engine build. I assume that the Hot Rods crank you are putting in is the 3mm stroker crank, otherwise what you're building sounds more like a 520 than a 543. I have the 101 mm bore and the 13:1 compression piston in my engine. For your fuel, I've always been told to run race gas in anything above 12:1. I run Cam2 (110 octane) in mine for the most part. I have also run a mix of VP U4 and pump gas, mixed 50/50. The mix worked awesome and there was a noticable difference. The only downfall is the fact that 10 gallons of fuel cost me about $100. If you go with the mix of U4 and pump gas, you should add 1 ounce of 2 stroke oil (I used Benol) per gallon of mix to keep the fuel from oxidizing on the piston. Otherwise, you have to run the fuel out of the engine every time you shut down. For the money and effort that you are putting into your engine build, don't skimp on the fuel. Spending a couple extra bucks is going to help your build last longer and run much better. Also, if I were you, I'd consider the Stage 2 or Stage 3 Hotcam. I know someone out there is going to argue with me, but I think it would help bring your build to life. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Do with it what you want ;)

[czrider263]

I agree that you shouldn't save money on fuel. But you can never know what octane to run. That is determined by dynamic (sp) compression not static. Its true that the safe way to go is run high fuel octane to avoid any nocking.

BTW thanks for your stroker info.

as said before by chad

Originally posted by chad502ex
octane requirements is determined by dynamic compression ratio not static compression ratio.

static compression is meaningless to a running engine. Dynamic compression involves valve closing timing.


A/Fr correlated against altitude, and octane requirements with compression ratios are two different discussions jammed into one here...


It is true that over-octaning an engine is not harmful; however, its always the safest method of preventing catastropic failures from occuring...

The only way to determine octane requirements is to calculate dynamic compression, use engine modeling software, or perform a knock index test using knock sensors,... all of which I can do..... hehe...

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by trx520chk
Ok boys, I'm staying out of your 'pissing match' as someone called it... but I am going to put in my 2 cents about the engine build. I assume that the Hot Rods crank you are putting in is the 3mm stroker crank, otherwise what you're building sounds more like a 520 than a 543. I have the 101 mm bore and the 13:1 compression piston in my engine. For your fuel, I've always been told to run race gas in anything above 12:1. I run Cam2 (110 octane) in mine for the most part. I have also run a mix of VP U4 and pump gas, mixed 50/50. The mix worked awesome and there was a noticable difference. The only downfall is the fact that 10 gallons of fuel cost me about $100. If you go with the mix of U4 and pump gas, you should add 1 ounce of 2 stroke oil (I used Benol) per gallon of mix to keep the fuel from oxidizing on the piston. Otherwise, you have to run the fuel out of the engine every time you shut down. For the money and effort that you are putting into your engine build, don't skimp on the fuel. Spending a couple extra bucks is going to help your build last longer and run much better. Also, if I were you, I'd consider the Stage 2 or Stage 3 Hotcam. I know someone out there is going to argue with me, but I think it would help bring your build to life. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Do with it what you want ;)

OK I'll be the jerk.... well, I don't want to, but I feel like I should clear up the information in your posting...

1. CAM2 may be cheap, and high octane, but the fuel is terrible for 450r's due to the sdpecific gravity of the fuel being heavier than most VP fuels. The 450r has a short intake tract, and needs a light fuel to atomize... Cam2 can be mixxed easier with pump.

2. pump fuel requirement is not based on static compression. in fact, all engines could 'care-less' about static. Its dynamic compression that determines fuel octane requirements. Although,.... there is a general misconception that if your running '12:1' your safe for pump, when more accurately, its more the intake valve closing that determines dynamic compression and thus octane requirements. this assumption is close with 'drop-in cam profiles only, but is ONLY an estimation not be used as factual until the knock index is measured or quantified.

3. mixxing U4 and pump,... no-no.. call VP tech support and inquire...

knockin