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KingpinsEx
04-03-2007, 11:24 PM
I was just curious if anyone else is sick of other compaines (Suzuki/Kawi) getting praised for being revolutionary in their atv designs? First with the LTR everyone just raved about the FI as if it had never been done before and then how they "changed" the sport with the FIRST race ready quad off the showroom floor?? We all know this to be false and when you get down to it, the moto was WAY more race ready than the LTR. Sure it's close but you cannot truely go out and race and LTR off the showroom floor, like you could the cannondale. Number plates, killswitches, beadlocks, race pipe, handlebars, different map, and better shocks are all things you still need to add on that the c-dale had.

This bothered me and then the Kawi comes out now and they just rave about the aluminum frame and FI like they changed the entire sport. And all of a sudden aluminum frames are just AMAZING, but i did not hear nearly as much apprasial for cannondales. Sure they went bankrupt but they truely paved the way and just because they no longer make atvs directly everyone (mainly mags.) acts as though they no longer exist or ever did in the first place. I guess they were just ahead of their time, but someone had to do it and they should at least get reconized for it

bwamos
04-04-2007, 07:29 AM
Dales were evolutionary in design. Unfortunatly they didn't ever have the marketing to make it truly revolutionary.

In order for a product to become revolutionary one must make the masses beleive they can not live without it. ;)

The dales were an engineering masterpiece. Unfortunatly the Kawi is going to get the credit because it is the one that's going to force the other makers to step up again.

Nothing on the Kawi is "new". It's just a great compiliation of things have been done right.

Aluminum frame = Dale
EFI = Raptor
Factory Narrow Front Geometry = ever look at the front of an Outlaw? ;)

All that being said.. the Kawi is a great quad from my perspective.

Fred55
04-04-2007, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by bwamos
Factory Narrow Front Geometry = ever look at the front of an Outlaw? ;)

yes the outlaw does have it as well, but the KFX700 has it also and has been out much longer...

bradley300
04-04-2007, 08:17 AM
alumnum frame: dale
EFI: dale again
narrow frame: roll design, laegers, lsr, walsh

bwamos
04-04-2007, 09:59 AM
narrow frame: roll design, laegers, lsr, walsh

That's why I put "factory" on there.

The Kawi actually has had claims of it to be the first Production ATV with narrow front end gemoetry. (not from Kawi, but by others)

Don't get me wrong I love the new Kawi.

I'm going to be adding a 450 class to my collection (of 1, lol) before the end of the summer and the Kawai is currently at the top of the looking at list. The fabled KTM could be pretty nice too. Their motors rock. Not going to have an aluminum frame or EFI. But. it could have a Chromoly4 frame though since that is what they use on their bikes.. ;)

bradley300
04-04-2007, 10:10 AM
yeah the kfx700 v-force was the first stock quad with the narrow frame. its funny how the mags barely mentioned it on the v-force, now on the kaw everyone wants to make a big deal about it

Toadz400
04-04-2007, 10:39 AM
Wasn't the 250R the first quad with the narrow front frame geometry?

I would still personally rather own a 250R/Hybrid 400EX or a well-built Cannondale than any of these new quads.

ThePhantomRider
04-04-2007, 11:34 AM
The funny thing about the frame, save the front end geometry is the fact that they took C-dale frames, figured them out and how to make them more cost effective (ie cast portions) and slapped it into their quad.

BTW I had my reservations about this quad, but it's grown on me...except for the stone seat.

My real worry is if you see the same thing happen to the 450 you see when the KFX 700 hits somthing head on to one side or the other...on the 700, the front subframe bends easy...the alloy should be more ridgid, but I'd hate to have to fix breakage.

TPR

7 speed
04-04-2007, 11:35 AM
Anyone know the claimed weight of the kfx?

bwamos
04-04-2007, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Toadz400
Wasn't the 250R the first quad with the narrow front frame geometry?

I would still personally rather own a 250R/Hybrid 400EX or a well-built Cannondale than any of these new quads.

Not from the factory. You had to buy a $3000+ frame to get that. ;) It had front end geometry very similar to the 400ex.

bwamos
04-04-2007, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by 7 speed
Anyone know the claimed weight of the kfx?

Claimed weight is 364 about the same as the other e-starts (450ER is 363 dry).

However it also has reverse, reinforced rims, EFI electronics, fuel pump, and heavier tires.

TWILES
04-04-2007, 04:18 PM
Any of you guys remember when the C-Dales were winning "A" and Pro-Am? I remember when Nacs was pushing them to the point you really did want to buy one. I think what hurt the Cannondales was the FI mapping and cost. Not everyone had a laptop and the off road internet sites were grim. If you bought one, you were on your own. This was a time when Atv Connection was where you sold your bikes. If they could sell them at a comparable price to the Japanesse bike's and guarrenty a little reliability, they'ed be on top again. They would just have the ATK sticker. I believe that Cannondale set the bar but their bike's ended up being junk. Otherwise, they would get a lot more credit.

nicker71
04-04-2007, 04:50 PM
Cannondale.
Credit given.

bwamos
04-05-2007, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by TWILES
Any of you guys remember when the C-Dales were winning "A" and Pro-Am? I remember when Nacs was pushing them to the point you really did want to buy one. I think what hurt the Cannondales was the FI mapping and cost. Not everyone had a laptop and the off road internet sites were grim. If you bought one, you were on your own. This was a time when Atv Connection was where you sold your bikes. If they could sell them at a comparable price to the Japanesse bike's and guarrenty a little reliability, they'ed be on top again. They would just have the ATK sticker. I believe that Cannondale set the bar but their bike's ended up being junk. Otherwise, they would get a lot more credit.

IMHO what hurt Cannondale the most was their customer service was TOO GOOD. They were fixing stuff noone else would have. Other companeis would have just updated the next model year. It hit them hard.

And the fact that they went from badass 250r style plastics on their prototype to a bulky looking plastic on their production model. The production model "looked" heavy.

Varmit57
04-05-2007, 03:57 PM
I think that the C-dales would have been a lot better off buying some Motor R&D from someone else instead of trying to do it all themselfs.

They had the know how to do the frames and they did the research to figure out the racing side of it. The Air box up front and the pipe straight out the back! I don't know why that is not chatching on? I think that all the motor problems that really did the company in.

Too bad to, them things where sweet! And trully one of the only race ready quads out there. Exspecily since they offered 3 or 4 diffrent models depending on what type of racing you did.

The only one that was even close was the GAS GAS that had Nurfs and a kill switch from the factory. Ofcourse we see where they are at today also. :(

yamadjs08
04-05-2007, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Varmit57
I think that the C-dales would have been a lot better off buying some Motor R&D from someone else instead of trying to do it all themselfs.

They had the know how to do the frames and they did the research to figure out the racing side of it. The Air box up front and the pipe straight out the back! I don't know why that is not chatching on? I think that all the motor problems that really did the company in.

Too bad to, them things where sweet! And trully one of the only race ready quads out there. Exspecily since they offered 3 or 4 diffrent models depending on what type of racing you did.

The only one that was even close was the GAS GAS that had Nurfs and a kill switch from the factory. Ofcourse we see where they are at today also. :(
Mine seems to get around those IATVHSS tracks alright... :devil:
How did you do at the farm?



Oh and I totally agree, they had the frame and geometry down, they should have just did something simple like stick a rotax in it until they had a steady base going after 5 years, than go all out and build their own motor...:cool:

What they came up with is a great design, just had quality control issues and not enough testing...

KingpinsEx
04-05-2007, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by bradley300
yeah the kfx700 v-force was the first stock quad with the narrow frame. its funny how the mags barely mentioned it on the v-force, now on the kaw everyone wants to make a big deal about it

It cracks me up, not only the publishing but the consumers!! All of a sudden anything that doesn't have the narrnow frame just isn't as good or will not handle nearly as well... Yet countless championship's have been won on previous stock geometery. This just goes back to my point that the media often negatively effect's consumer's opinion's on such matters.

04-06-2007, 08:55 PM
the gas gas is the most race ready quad i've ever seen...ohlins shocks, nerfs etc etc... other than the weight, and the fact that they aren't made in japan seems to be their biggest problems...oh ya that it one pretty tough to find parts!!:D

yamadjs08
04-06-2007, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by dlerch
the gas gas is the most race ready quad i've ever seen...ohlins shocks, nerfs etc etc... other than the weight, and the fact that they aren't made in japan seems to be their biggest problems...oh ya that it one pretty tough to find parts!!:D
So clueless...:rolleyes:

Toadz400
04-06-2007, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by dlerch
the gas gas is the most race ready quad i've ever seen...ohlins shocks, nerfs etc etc... other than the weight, and the fact that they aren't made in japan seems to be their biggest problems...oh ya that it one pretty tough to find parts!!:D

Just a question, does Cannondale sound familiar to you?

04-06-2007, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Toadz400
Just a question, does Cannondale sound familiar to you?

does ohlins shocks, fmf pipe, a/c nerfs, full aluminum skids, bumper, pro design kill switch, brembo brakes...sound familiar to you?!! well they are all standard on the gas gas.oh ya electric start with a kicker back up, 6 spd tranny, and fuel injection...

yamadjs08
04-06-2007, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by dlerch
does ohlins shocks, fmf pipe, a/c nerfs, full aluminum skids, bumper, pro design kill switch, brembo brakes...sound familiar to you?!! well they are all standard on the gas gas.oh ya electric start with a kicker back up, 6 spd tranny, and fuel injection... Still doesn't quite top a Blaze or Moto... Try Ohlins shocks, Ohlins rotary style dampner, Titanium FMF pipe, nerfs, pingel kill switch (one of best on market), tag handlebars, handguards, wave rotors, stainless steel lines, hydraulic clutch, ITP holeshot tires and ITP beadlocks, plus all of the other great stuff that all Cannondales had, such as all aluminum frame (one of strongest frames ever), EFI with fully programmable mapping with timing and fuel curve adjustments. And best part of all it was designed and made in the USA!

You can't even race a GasGas in MX because it is 52inches wide... And who really needs a 6 speed tranny? Obviously designed for street use also...

Gas Gas almost topped Cannondale as far as being race ready, but people were even more scared of them than Cannondale because parts had to be imported...

I almost bought a Gas Gas 300 2-stroke, I think they are sick, but yes even a Cannondale owner was scared about buying parts for a Gas Gas... :p

Toadz400
04-08-2007, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by yamadjs08
Still doesn't quite top a Blaze or Moto... Try Ohlins shocks, Ohlins rotary style dampner, Titanium FMF pipe, nerfs, pingel kill switch (one of best on market), tag handlebars, handguards, wave rotors, stainless steel lines, hydraulic clutch, ITP holeshot tires and ITP beadlocks, plus all of the other great stuff that all Cannondales had, such as all aluminum frame (one of strongest frames ever), EFI with fully programmable mapping with timing and fuel curve adjustments. And best part of all it was designed and made in the USA!

You can't even race a GasGas in MX because it is 52inches wide... And who really needs a 6 speed tranny? Obviously designed for street use also...

Gas Gas almost topped Cannondale as far as being race ready, but people were even more scared of them than Cannondale because parts had to be imported...

I almost bought a Gas Gas 300 2-stroke, I think they are sick, but yes even a Cannondale owner was scared about buying parts for a Gas Gas... :p

Exactly.:D

SpeedBump
04-08-2007, 06:19 PM
Back in 1988, Kawasaki introduced what I think was the first long travel gull-wing style A-arm. Check out a 1988 Kawasaki Tecate4.

;)

Kinda looks like Roll Design Copied Kaw! :D

http://users.adelphia.net/~cinnamonlou/pics/johnv.jpg

Toadz400
04-10-2007, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by SpeedBump
Back in 1988, Kawasaki introduced what I think was the first long travel gull-wing style A-arm. Check out a 1988 Kawasaki Tecate4.

;)

Kinda looks like Roll Design Copied Kaw! :D

http://users.adelphia.net/~cinnamonlou/pics/johnv.jpg

Are those stock a-arms on that Tecate? I don't recall them ever being like that.

soilworker
04-11-2007, 12:27 AM
Don't know if those are stock but I've seen a handful of Tecate's in recent years and all looked like that.

rrguy
06-22-2007, 02:40 PM
Well I think GASGAS & dale deserve more credit. They sure didn't get an excess from the magazines IMO! lol


How many times have you seen the new 07 gasgas450 in the magazines?

Toadz400
06-23-2007, 06:17 PM
Didn't the Cannondale come before the Gas-Gas? Even so, the Gas-Gas does deserve more credit than what the big companies are offering.

quadinfamily
06-23-2007, 09:33 PM
gas gas ruies !!!!

Claas900
06-30-2007, 06:04 PM
A lot of ppl were worried about what fetchers the dales had,some even knocked them for it, but as soon as other brands come out with it its the greatest thing.
..EFI but now suke & yamaha are the greatest for having it ,Frame,Link less rear,ECU controlled choke"DS450 thinks theres the first" battery down low in the frame but the suke is the boom for doing it.
The Moto and Gasgas take the cake for being race ready out of box by a long shot IMO.

Claas900
06-30-2007, 06:22 PM
And as I sit here the list keeps getting longer in my head. Hydro clutch witch I know KTM has had them for a wile. But when the clutch is new in a dale and adjusted right you'll never had to adjust it again tel its time for a new clutch, witch lasts a very long time. I'v got friends with other 450's and already having clutch issues I don't miss that PITA cable.

MI_CDALE_Rider
07-01-2007, 10:45 AM
First.. you are right OP .. credit to Cdale for blazing the trail.

Can you imagine if Cdale still exsisted as a fully developed company? I would guess that their quad would be even farther ahead then brand X.

How cool would it have been if they had worked with the KTM engine in their awesome frame?

I like the advancements to the new quads.. EFI, Alum frame, reverse, etc.... still don't want to give up my dale..

Toadz400
07-02-2007, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by MI_CDALE_Rider
First.. you are right OP .. credit to Cdale for blazing the trail.

Can you imagine if Cdale still exsisted as a fully developed company? I would guess that their quad would be even farther ahead then brand X.

How cool would it have been if they had worked with the KTM engine in their awesome frame?

I like the advancements to the new quads.. EFI, Alum frame, reverse, etc.... still don't want to give up my dale..

I wouldn't want to get rid of a Dale either. Why get something not nearly as good as you got?

If Cannondale were still around the ATV world would be completely different.

yamadjs08
07-02-2007, 02:11 PM
If Cannondale were still around the ATV world would be completely different. [/B]
True dat...

xwarriorx
07-02-2007, 09:47 PM
the anger you all have you cant blame the big four for marketing and putting dealers by people. growing up the only place i ever saw Dales was at a polaris dealer they had like 2 back in like 99. and gas gas does not even have dealers here. why would magazines market to consumers that cant purchas these bikes at a local dealer in most cities. there not stupid. im sure these quads have awsome qualities and i always believed the dales were a little ahead of there time but thats no need for big four hostitlity. i think there is a dale forum for this venting.

Claas900
07-02-2007, 10:18 PM
They had to start somewhere. Getting parts for a dale was never hard. I came off a Honda and never once did I go to my 2 local dealers and they had the parts I needed. Always had to order,just like with dale,so no different there. Dealers are only there to have bikes to look at and buy from nothing more then a middle man.

Toadz400
07-03-2007, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Claas900
They had to start somewhere. Getting parts for a dale was never hard. I came off a Honda and never once did I go to my 2 local dealers and they had the parts I needed. Always had to order,just like with dale,so no different there. Dealers are only there to have bikes to look at and buy from nothing more then a middle man.

Exactly. I've rarely ever gone to a dealership and they've had the correct parts in stock. I always end up ordering them online, plus it's a lot cheaper to try and find the part on eBay or some other website.

Cannondales were easy to find here in Wisconsin back when they were Cannondales. The local Honda dealership carried them and I wish I would've picked one up back then. Now the nearest ATK dealership is nearly 5 hours away. The only other ATK dealership in Wisconsin is not even an hour away from that one. You would think they would try and spread out these dealerships. If there was one locally I would've for sure bought an ATK instead of my YFZ450.

trxwannbe
07-14-2007, 10:02 AM
yeah the atk company which now makes the c-dales has updated the motors to avoid all those issues that used to exist and they bumped it up a little to make it a 450 and while they have made these improvements somebody from our series here in NE that has one of the new atks says they just don't have it in them any more now your stuck spending just as much on those as you would on any of the 450s to be fast again