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KingpinsEx
04-03-2007, 04:10 PM
I was just curious if anyone else is sick of other compaines (Suzuki/Kawi) getting praised for being revolutionary in their atv designs? First with the LTR everyone just raved about the FI as if it had never been done before and then how they "changed" the sport with the FIRST race ready quad off the showroom floor?? We all know this to be false and when you get down to it, the moto was WAY more race ready than the LTR. Sure it's close but you cannot truely go out and race and LTR off the showroom floor, like you could the cannondale. Number plates, killswitches, beadlocks, race pipe, handlebars, different map, and better shocks are all things you still need to add on that the c-dale had.

This bothered me and then the Kawi comes out now and they just rave about the aluminum frame and FI like they changed the entire sport. And all of a sudden aluminum frames are just AMAZING, but i did not hear nearly as much apprasial for cannondales. Sure they went bankrupt but they truely paved the way and just because they no longer make atvs directly everyone (mainly mags.) acts as though they no longer exist or ever did in the first place. I guess they were just ahead of their time, but someone had to do it and they should at least get reconized for it...

54warrior
04-03-2007, 04:15 PM
Exactly. You need to post this in the Suzuki or Kaw forum and see what response you get.

you are 100% right with the facts and 100% right for thinking that way

yamadjs08
04-03-2007, 04:41 PM
Again, you are exactly right.

Credit has been due for years, but I get the feeling that Cannondales won't ever be appreciated for what they are and what they did for the sport... :ermm:

ckasper18
04-03-2007, 04:52 PM
They stated they are the first japenese company

54warrior
04-03-2007, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by ckasper18
They stated they are the first japenese company


Well laa dee dah....{sarcasm}


Your probably the first person to catch onto that. It doesn't really mean much to the public anyways. Many don't even know that Cannondale existed.

soilworker
04-03-2007, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by 54warrior
Well laa dee dah....{sarcasm}


Your probably the first person to catch onto that. It doesn't really mean much to the public anyways. Many don't even know that Cannondale existed.
True; a lot of new people to the sport in recent years who weren't around during the days of C'Dale have no idea what they are. I can't count the amount of times I showed up to race at a track and more than half the riders who'd never seen me before would ask what I was riding and if it was fast.

But I have come to love beating those who badmouth out on the track and holeshots.

Honda started the sport quad revolution w/the 400EX and C'Dale started the racing revolution. Things that C'Dale had back in 2001 are finally getting into the industry now in 2007. Sad part is that they still are not as advanced.

The day a Japanese manufacturer brings out a 50" wide quad w/long travel high dollar shocks, killswitch, beadlocks, REAL MX tires, nerfs, number plates, TI exhaust, etc, etc, etc; I will finally say that the Japanese have gotten the balls to contend against American muscle and ingenuity.

KingpinsEx
04-03-2007, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by soilworker


The day a Japanese manufacturer brings out a 50" wide quad w/long travel high dollar shocks, killswitch, beadlocks, REAL MX tires, nerfs, number plates, TI exhaust, etc, etc, etc; I will finally say that the Japanese have gotten the balls to contend against American muscle and ingenuity.

Hopefully that is what KTM plans to do.... Although it's not Jap. based, i think that it will continue to push the envolpe and force them to do so...

KingpinsEx
04-03-2007, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by 54warrior
Many don't even know that Cannondale existed.

My point exactly!!!

54warrior
04-03-2007, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by soilworker
True; a lot of new people to the sport in recent years who weren't around during the days of C'Dale have no idea what they are.


Even people that were around during the years of the C'Dale, not just newbies, were unaware of their existance. I'd say only 50% knew about them at the time, and that number hasn't grown much.

Ron89
04-03-2007, 09:55 PM
I remember people used to make fun of C-Dales for having FI and all the other gooides. People said it was useless, a waste of money blah blah blah. Now, FI is suddenly this big technological break through and everyone loves it. Ummm, what happened to it being dumb? Just goes to show you how loyal people are to their own brand of ATV. I even remember talking to a friend of mine a couple years ago about FI and he thought it was the dumbest thing in the world. Now he wants one with FI because all the companies are putting it in their bikes and it's the talk of the town.

armoks
04-03-2007, 10:06 PM
Cdale had the best FI, the new stuff only lets you play with the fuel, the cdale program let you adjust the ignition where the real tuning began. Cdaleriders can't see that and only have maps for the regular speed map hope Optimum can create a system for the suk and kawi so we can see the real potential of FI.

54warrior
04-04-2007, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by KingpinsEx
Hopefully that is what KTM plans to do.... Although it's not Jap. based, i think that it will continue to push the envolpe and force them to do so...


I was at a dealership a few weeks ago that sold Yamaha and KTM. I took a long hard look at the KTM bikes. They, like the Cannondales, are works of art. I was highly impressed, the best of everything, just like the 'Dales.

Another story...I moved recently and was driving around this new area. I see two guys in this field talking. One was on his kid's bike (KTM 65?) and the other guy was on a Cannondale!! I turned around and went back to talk to the guy on the Dale. I told him I used to have one and we talked about it for probably 15 minutes. Then I start looking at this little KTM machine. That little sucker had wave rotors and a hydro clutch on it!!!!

If KTM comes out with something awesome, I may be tempted to purchase one!!

yamadjs08
04-04-2007, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by armoks
Cdale had the best FI, the new stuff only lets you play with the fuel, the cdale program let you adjust the ignition where the real tuning began. Cdaleriders can't see that and only have maps for the regular speed map hope Optimum can create a system for the suk and kawi so we can see the real potential of FI. I know that C-dales have the best FI out right now, I just don't know how to set up a map or anything. I just load in a preset map, maybe change the TS or rev limit. Maybe you could give me a mapping 101...? :D But my worst problem is starting, mine starts like **** and I have no idea why...? I have tried dialing it in, but I haven't gained much ground yet. Any hints or tips Armoks, I know your the mapping god!:D

ckasper18
04-04-2007, 07:24 AM
I also agree c dales reallygot the performance quad industry on the map.I rode several cdales and my 16 year old daughter raced one at quadlympics we have a dyno here at work and some of the best cdale motor builders rent our dyno for hours at a time thanks to cannondale honda and even yamaha are racing industry is where its at because of them..........Chris

KingpinsEx
04-04-2007, 04:03 PM
How about Honda claming Tim Farr as the first factory rider in over 20 years, or something like that? And them being the first factory backed race team in mx since then... What happened to Nacs/Cannondale?? They supported racing as much as anyone, i remeber being told by a friend who ran a dealership back in the day that they gave their shop a moto for free to have someone race! Not to mention all the "demo" quads they allowed dealerships to take to the tracks in order to allow people the chance to ride them. I don't know any other company that does that. Now that is commitment to the sport...is just unfortunte that all that support got a little too costly for the company..

cdembek
04-05-2007, 01:08 PM
Well lets see what folks think..

http://www.ltr450racing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2869#post2869

happyboy
04-05-2007, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by armoks
Cdale had the best FI, the new stuff only lets you play with the fuel, the cdale program let you adjust the ignition where the real tuning began. Cdaleriders can't see that and only have maps for the regular speed map hope Optimum can create a system for the suk and kawi so we can see the real potential of FI.

There is a major problem with playing with the ignition timing. You can't tell if your timing is doing damage. Preignition can be happening and you just not know it, resulting in premature engine failure. When companies like cdale build/had built maps they use engine monitors and such to detect this.

And have you seen the hp numbers a few of the techies have been getting? And they are real numbers too. There was a YFZ with pipe and such run right before hand and it had about 47hp. Pretty accurate.

By all means, there are gains to be made by changing the timing but, at least for me, the risk is greater in doing damage.

ltr450racing
04-05-2007, 06:39 PM
Happyboy you are so correct.. changing the timing you have to be very careful with... fire to soon you could be slamming that rod into the bearing... never mind the rev limiter.. all sorts of issue.

BTW.. this thread has taken a life of it's own Here (http://www.ltr450racing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2890#post2890)




http://www.ltr450racing.com/forum/images/link_to_us/LTR450Racing_374x68.gif (http://www.ltr450racing.com)

KingpinsEx
04-05-2007, 10:59 PM
I appreciate the input, it was just an idea that was going through my mind that other's must have considered...BTW i'm reading all posts related to this topic....

ltr450racing
04-06-2007, 02:49 AM
great topic!!




<a href="http://www.ltr450racing.com" target="_blank"><br>
<img src="http://www.ltr450racing.com/forum/images/link_to_us/LTR450Racing_374x68.gif" alt="" border="0"></a>

armoks
04-06-2007, 06:46 AM
See happyboy you are not seeing what I'm saying...I never jumped the timing to extreames I used what cdale numbers were and stayed within those parameters. they are all safe even went through scooter to see where the limits are. All I'm saying is there are different places to put power for different areas of riding. Using one ignition map will only give you one power curve, there's room there to adjust the power for where you want it, let it be low, mid, top or where you want it. The speed map is a GREAT top end map but not everyone wants the power just on the top end to show dyno numbers, some want the power down low for grunting through the woods or mid for semi-open terrain.

I don't believe dynos, the tech on the dyno can give you any numbers you want. Ive seen the same quad on the same dyno go from 35 hp to 50 hp all in how the dyno tech puts in the numbers. I've also seen numbers from those guys about 5-7 hp higher then anyone else can get on a dyno, so I'm not following thier numbers or thier claims. Dynos are to show a difference from start to fininsh to show you a differnce in what changes you made they are not to show whos the soo called "king on a dyno".

armoks
04-06-2007, 06:51 AM
ltr450racing or Cdembek are you the same person? it seems to be you're M.O. to promote you're sites by building a new name. Why would people go to an LTR site to discuss CDales? sounds like just a grab for members.

happyboy
04-06-2007, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by armoks
See happyboy you are not seeing what I'm saying...I never jumped the timing to extreames I used what cdale numbers were and stayed within those parameters. they are all safe even went through scooter to see where the limits are. All I'm saying is there are different places to put power for different areas of riding. Using one ignition map will only give you one power curve, there's room there to adjust the power for where you want it, let it be low, mid, top or where you want it. The speed map is a GREAT top end map but not everyone wants the power just on the top end to show dyno numbers, some want the power down low for grunting through the woods or mid for semi-open terrain.

I don't believe dynos, the tech on the dyno can give you any numbers you want. Ive seen the same quad on the same dyno go from 35 hp to 50 hp all in how the dyno tech puts in the numbers. I've also seen numbers from those guys about 5-7 hp higher then anyone else can get on a dyno, so I'm not following thier numbers or thier claims. Dynos are to show a difference from start to fininsh to show you a differnce in what changes you made they are not to show whos the soo called "king on a dyno".

I agreed with you on the timing thing. There is power to be made there. Its just that if the timing is off you may not know it. Never said you went to extremes, heck what is an extreme with that? We wouldn't know.

And as for the dyno numbers....That is saying they cheat. I don't really think that is the case as they have base dyno runs with them. Who knows, they could be, but i seriously doubt it. That would be a very large conspiracy.

ltr450racing
04-06-2007, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by 54warrior
Exactly. You need to post this in the Suzuki or Kaw forum and see what response you get.

you are 100% right with the facts and 100% right for thinking that way

Hey Armoks... could this be the M.O.???

And your a cop or something like that.. waste of tax payers money if you ask me. I hope your not a detective cause your really bad at looking at the whole picture.

And how many cdale motors took a dump from your maps???

armoks
04-06-2007, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by happyboy
There is a major problem with playing with the ignition timing. You can't tell if your timing is doing damage. Preignition can be happening and you just not know it, resulting in premature engine failure. When companies like cdale build/had built maps they use engine monitors and such to detect this.



You said it Cdale used monitors and such to show where the parameters are and they stayed a far distance from the extremes where engine damage could occur.

LTR going after my job very adult of you. and no motors have been proven to take a dump because of mapping. most are from poor tunning and poor matience not from the maps.

Every Cdale I have ever tuned are still running and running strong. the owners just have to do trottle cals every now and then but that's just a dale.

KingpinsEx
04-06-2007, 10:45 AM
Ya you guys are right with the really cool things c-dale did with their ignition maps. Such as in a case of rain at a mx event, they could adjust the maps on the fly to give them all the tourque you need instead of top end power. That stuff is bad@$$ and gives the rider an amazing advantage...oddly enough i have not heard of any of this being done with the LTR??