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View Full Version : My dad and I were talking.....



firefighterjosh
03-19-2007, 05:27 AM
My dad and I were talking today during nascar about his Cdale. Also talking about racing and stuff.

Just figured I would throw this out there.....My belief is Cdale came out way before its time. When it came out it was too high priced, technology was way to advanced for the quad world. Also hand some hiccups.

Seems like to me if Cdale would come out NOW they would be booming or atleast doing good. The prices would be right around everyone elses, the technology is still advanced but not so mucht o scare ppl.


I mean everyone is making a big deal of the KFX450 being aluminum framed:rolleyes: Cdale had that 5 years ago:macho

yamadjs08
03-19-2007, 10:57 AM
Yes very true, there are many other contributing reasons as to why they went out... But one thing is for sure, if they were still going today, it would be the greatest thing thats happened to this sport, Yam, Hon, Suz, and Kaw would have to be constantly changing things year after year improving their quads. It would make for better all around machines from every company...

400exrider707
03-19-2007, 11:53 AM
Well... they are still technically out... They should look at factory backing and see about sponsoring some pro riders... that would probably be the biggest sales booster of all.

joedirt
03-19-2007, 07:12 PM
:confused:

rollie
03-19-2007, 07:36 PM
If cdale somehow made a comeback (not ATK even though there bikes are nice theres just not enough support or dealers around) my honda would be gone and a silver moto would be in my garage:D

firefighterjosh
03-19-2007, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by 400exrider707
Well... they are still technically out... They should look at factory backing and see about sponsoring some pro riders... that would probably be the biggest sales booster of all.

I thought they did sponsor one guy and he won his first or second race. Wasn't it jeff from tire balls?


Anyways I don't think they have the money to do that.

witech
03-19-2007, 11:40 PM
Well change doesnt come easy. Its kind of wierd how the atv industry is so absurdly slow to accept change. There are quads still in production today that were rehashed designs back in the 80's. Cripes atv's and lawn mowers are about the only engines left still using mostly carbs. It is nice to see the japs stepping up to technology that should have been here 15 years ago.

54warrior
03-20-2007, 09:32 AM
Having owned a Cannondale and even getting a tour of the mfg facility(long story). They were both ahead of the times yet also behind the times.

Personally, I credit C'dale for getting the ball rolling. You can ALL thank them for the YFZ, TRX, LTZ, etc.

Some Firsts, all of which were STOCK on the Moto:
Aluminum Frame
Fuel Injection
Extended Arms
Extended Axle
20F/18R tires
Battery mtd low in frame for low CG
Gripper Seat
aftermarket (TAG) bars
nerf bars
aftermarket Shocks with Rezzy's


All for only $12k, you could go out and whoop some @$$.

Where they failed was in the R&D department. Motor design was too "advanced" yet not refined enough to make it durable. Combine that with some bad parts from their vendor(cranks) and you have alot of unhappy customers. Poor fuel injection system. I had major problems with that. UGLY!

They were on the right track, but just like alot of things, the pressure was on to get things released and that resulted in alot of errors/corner cutting.

2000ex
03-20-2007, 11:28 AM
Completely agree with everything people have said. They are still the best fit and finish of parts for a factory bike. Frames? Works of art..swingarms are nearly indestructable, stems made by Arens, and axles from LSR....everything on them chassis wise is far better than what the jap bikes are currently manufacturing. I challenge anyone to refute that statement.

Cannondale may very well would still be in business today if they farmed out the motor R&D to a company well versed in building engines or had an endless supply of cash. They should have stuck to their core competency which always was welding aluminum and building great chassis components.

The people left with these bikes are for the most part die hard cannondale lunatics, and most of the old issues with them have been fixed. The motor is probably one of the best designs out there still and now that the reliability issues have been taken care of they are better than ever. You just need to be a good mechanic and want to learn their quirks

54warrior
03-20-2007, 12:05 PM
Your exactly right about that 2000ex. I unfortunately am not a great mechanic. I was aware of the quirks but my pocket book got tired.

I was having major FI issues with my quad. It wouldn't run below 40*F. I did alot of *****ing and the regional sales rep said to just bring it to the factory, they would work on it and also give me a tour. This was about 2 months before they went under. I even got a new set of front plastics with graphics out of them.

The place was really cool. It was frightening to see this large crate (4'x4'x5'deep) with junked engine parts in it though!!!. Everyone was really nice and they had excellent customer service. It's a real shame that things didn't work out better.

Here is/was mine:
http://www.cannondaler.com/albums/albun42/Speed2.jpg

Ron89
03-20-2007, 12:22 PM
It's almost funny how Cannondales get a better rep after they go under. With the devotion from all of the members, these machines are amazing. Before, no one took them seriously, but now, they are very competitive and quick. Now is a perfect time to buy them. They are cheap, powerful, and come with a good warrenty(the cannondale websites!!!). It's almost like a 24/7 live support. You have a problem, you get an answer. No take it to your dealer BS.

I think the company going under is sort of what kept them rolling. With no dealers around, the only people that kept the cannondales were the ones that sucked it up and opened the motor. All the people that drove them into the ground and threw them into the garage after every ride got rid of theirs and they eventually fell into the hands of those that loved them. With the challenge of starting from scratch with a flawed piece of machinery, I am amazed with the progress. These things are practically perfect now and all the problems now arise from all the horsepower these throw out. What a wonderful site. I am so glad that there are people that put time into these and make them what they should have been in the first place. The ultimate race machine. I will always be amazed with what such a small community can do with a horde of broken bikes.

NikNacs67
03-21-2007, 12:08 AM
I figured i'd chime in on this since I was a dale owner and am about to become one again very shortly. I have always thought the same thing but figured I was one of the very few who had those thoughts so nothing was said much about it from me. Where I am located, Dale's are pretty much non-exsistent. All my riding buddy's heard of Cannondale but never seen one in person or read about them so it was a big suprise to them when I showed up with it one day. It was an even bigger suprise to all the people at a local MX track who thought I built the danged thing from about 100 different quads:huh . One thing that has made me like these quads so much is the uniqueness, especially around here. Bad thing about it is, i've got an '06 450R that's basically gonna sit in my garage while i'm out on the Dale :devil: .

armoks
03-21-2007, 12:48 AM
Wow you guys are still hanging in there.

Yes Cdale was a good company who cared about thier customers, but that fell apart and killed them. ATK bought out the parts and was screwed by a bunch of guys on a certain site.

Yes Cdale is the reason we now have the New Kawi, the YFZ, and other 450R's (The LTZ was released shortly after the cdales). but the Moto is about the same as the LTR is now same power same MX ready features. I'll put my revalved stock shocks against any out there, Frame was good on the dales but not the subframe and engine cradle, let alone the engine itself falling apart.

No matter what you say, the big 4 would have came out and CRUSHED cdale in the end, thats what they do. The so called "C-Dale experts" Get great HP numbers on thier dynos but how come every other Dyno numbers are not posted??

Funny how it's cheap to get parts.....I got a bunch here for sale you wanna play you gotta pay!!! too bad the cdalerider comunity is too cheep to buy parts or they would support the suppliers trying to get them parts but they don't they go out and try to replace the parts for cheaper ones!!!

yamadjs08
03-21-2007, 11:08 AM
Ahh come on armoks, you used to be a die hard C-dale owner... And you let a few guys get you down. No need to dog this wonderfull thread...:o

Ron89
03-21-2007, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by armoks
Wow you guys are still hanging in there.

Yes Cdale was a good company who cared about thier customers, but that fell apart and killed them. ATK bought out the parts and was screwed by a bunch of guys on a certain site.

Yes Cdale is the reason we now have the New Kawi, the YFZ, and other 450R's (The LTZ was released shortly after the cdales). but the Moto is about the same as the LTR is now same power same MX ready features. I'll put my revalved stock shocks against any out there, Frame was good on the dales but not the subframe and engine cradle, let alone the engine itself falling apart.

No matter what you say, the big 4 would have came out and CRUSHED cdale in the end, thats what they do. The so called "C-Dale experts" Get great HP numbers on thier dynos but how come every other Dyno numbers are not posted??

Funny how it's cheap to get parts.....I got a bunch here for sale you wanna play you gotta pay!!! too bad the cdalerider comunity is too cheep to buy parts or they would support the suppliers trying to get them parts but they don't they go out and try to replace the parts for cheaper ones!!!
Dude, I don't even know you. Why would you bluntly blame me for some parts issue. After all, I am part of the community. I don't even know what you are talking about. I have never had a problem getting parts. Not everyone has money to shell out so they can be the "Cannondale Heros" and supply the community with new parts. Is this some sort of commitment you have to agree to to own a Cannondale?...wow.

Too cheap??...I believe owners of Cannondales spend more than they should for what they ride. They took a flawed machine and reinvigorated it...that's not cheap.

I have been around the forums for a while (probably since mid '03) and I knew everyone's personalities before I signed up and got a Cannondale. I never disrespected you and never blamed you for anything. To be honest, I looked at you as the one that knew a lot because if I remember right, you made custom MAPs? I don't know where your bitterness comes from but it's not from me and thats for damn sure. So come on, don't blame all of us over some bad experiences. As far as I'm concerned, I remember you being very helpful with these machines. I don't hold anything against people so lets try to get along. I'm not your enemy bro.

armoks
03-21-2007, 09:12 PM
After ATK bought out Pegasus(the holding company after cdale went bankrupt) the so called "R&D team" on Cdaleriders started bashing them on thier business practices and went on the forums
and complained how much ATK was charging for parts and rebuilds because they as backyard mechanics could do it cheeper.

The great savior on riders would undercut everyone else on prices and then bash the other builders untill they left the comunity, happened with Haydug and ATK, heck they even went after Blackwidow and cannonboomer.

sorry you though it sounded like I was going directly at you Rom89 but I just want to make sure people know the other side of the story since it's soo blurred on cannondale riders.

Why I say the community is cheep because if you try to sell anything for it MOST Cdale people try to get it for half of what its worth.

rollie
03-21-2007, 09:22 PM
Its too bad because soon enough the dales will be all but forgotten, IMO its the modern-day 250R, some people have never heard of it yet it started a revolution. If im ever in the poistion money wise and i found an 02 dale moto, i would pick it up, put it in my shop, then go to the track in 20 years:cool:

The other thing i was thinking of is it possible for ATK to ever go big time? i mean lets face it, unless you where into dales, chances are, you dont know ATK took them over, i mean if they bought a banner on this site, put more R&D into these bikes and updated some of the things, they could easily be back out winning nationals, i know i know, only a few people work at ATK and they dont have the finacial(sp sorry) resources, but could it be possible?

armoks
03-21-2007, 10:04 PM
Exactlly rollie, ATK just doesn't have the money as the big 4 to go out and do everything that could be done. Honda, Zuke, Yami, and Kawi motorsports are just a tiny piece of much larger companies and can afford to do every little thing to thier machines ATK doesn't have that kind of backing.

firefighterjosh
03-21-2007, 10:11 PM
My friends come to my house and go "WTF is that thing" I say its my dad Cdale. Normal people also don't know anything abou them. Most my friends think if its not yamaha or honda its a POS.

My one friend is a die hard yamaha fan. I told him I bought a suzuki 4x4 he said suzuki sux, the KFX 450 sucks. to him if its not yamaha it sucks.

.....weeks days, or whatever laters.....

I went riding got my friend to ride my king quad. He loves it. says its a nice sporty 4x4. Same thing with the Cdale. My dad let me borrow it (wow that was a first) but I whomped all over his Yami 450 in a drag race. I mean I relaly beat him pretty good too and now hes like I want to ride it that thing is awesome....so man there POS's.:devil:

I guess what I am saying honda, yami, and all of them have been around for a while. Got a good rep. Cdale never got going and when they finally did they went under making there rep even wrose.

Smae with Bombardier. They came out with a DS 650 no one wants one. They win some races. come out with some new machines. Now look they are a top GNCC utility machine

happyboy
03-22-2007, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by armoks
After ATK bought out Pegasus(the holding company after cdale went bankrupt) the so called "R&D team" on Cdaleriders started bashing them on thier business practices and went on the forums
and complained how much ATK was charging for parts and rebuilds because they as backyard mechanics could do it cheeper.


Do you think that ATK was charging too much for the work they were doing? They were banding the clutch, bad thing. They were putting in stock cranks when they new for $100 they could make the crank 100x more reliable. They were a small company that bought out a big companies stuff and thought they would make a buck while they could. Still are doing that.


Originally posted by armoks

The great savior on riders would undercut everyone else on prices and then bash the other builders untill they left the comunity, happened with Haydug and ATK, heck they even went after Blackwidow and cannonboomer.

Who are you talking about? Timbo? He never undercut anyone. Undercutting infers intent and Timbo has never intending in hurting anyone else. Who attacked Haydug? And since when has anyone gone after BW or Boomer? So what is there is an occasional disagreement, we are all adults and can get over it.


Originally posted by armoks
Why I say the community is cheep because if you try to sell anything for it MOST Cdale people try to get it for half of what its worth.
I agree here. Stuff has gotton too cheap. But, an item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Gone are the days of a 3k dale in stock form.

54warrior
03-22-2007, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by happyboy I agree here. Stuff has gotton too cheap. But, an item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Gone are the days of a 3k dale in stock form. [/B]


I sold my 03 Speed around June of 2005 for exactly $3k which was about the most they were going for then. It amazes me the prices that some of these things are being sold for now.

Whats really weird is that I just moved, like 250 miles, I was driving around one evening last week and I spot these two guys in a field standing there BS'ing, one on what looked like a 'Dale and the other guy on a KTM65 bike. I turned around and went back

The guy on the 65 was testing it for his son. The other dude, was in fact on a 'Dale. He claimed to have paid $500 for it. I told him he got a hell of a deal for that price. It was an 02 Cannibal. Looked kinda beat, but for the most part was in great shape. I think I scared him when I started spewing out what Cannondale knowledge that I do have from owning one for 3 years!! I think I new more about the thing than he did!

Next he tells me that he also has a TRX450R, but enjoys riding that much better. I was tempted to offer him $800 for it!!!


As far as the undercutting/other BS, that all happened after I sold mine, so I don't know anything about it. It really is a shame these things are like a DeLorean!!!!

armoks
03-22-2007, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by happyboy
Do you think that ATK was charging too much for the work they were doing? They were banding the clutch, bad thing. They were putting in stock cranks when they new for $100 they could make the crank 100x more reliable. They were a small company that bought out a big companies stuff and thought they would make a buck while they could. Still are doing that.

Hey everyone is out trying to make a buck. They at least came out and showed thier prices and backed up thier ideas. funny that the $100 fix is something "needed" but there are plenty fine running non-updated motors out there.


Who are you talking about? Timbo? He never undercut anyone. Undercutting infers intent and Timbo has never intending in hurting anyone else. Who attacked Haydug? And since when has anyone gone after BW or Boomer? So what is there is an occasional disagreement, we are all adults and can get over it.

I never mentioned names but a few come up...people soliciting rebuilds on chat rooms and behind peoples back undercutting prices in PM's, people saying they aren't charging but they are doing R&D seems now he is the cdale rirder of the year, and people who had to be called out to become a member of said site so they would HAVE to let the secrets out but didn't tell people that they were the ones doing the work on bad cranks.


I agree here. Stuff has gotton too cheap. But, an item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Gone are the days of a 3k dale in stock form.


AND I will say Yes I was wrong on the cams that were in my head I was going off of what someone told me but after he found out there was a problem he fixed that problem. Unlike some people who waited till it got out of control and then blamed the other guy for it...Wait he did that with the cranks too!!

Boomer and Brad....hmm the thread going after Brad was erased...but theres evidence of boomer getting attacked behind the scenes on one of the sites....All Balls bearing kits....hmmm.

Doug has been attatcked mutiple times on multiple forums...I'm not getting into too many details here.

happyboy
03-23-2007, 08:21 AM
27 did go after brad. It wasn't meant to be like that but that is what it looked like. After all was said and done I think steve apoligized to Brad. Not sure. 27 does get worked up and has to be kept in check. He does fly off the handle but he also brings good things to the table. Kinda like you used to. But once you stop bring the positives then you gots to go.

DRT
03-23-2007, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by happyboy
Who are you talking about? Timbo? [/B]

I think he is talking about the HBRacing thing. You were one of those people in the chat room trying to drum up some buisness for yourself doing engine rebuilds.

happyboy
03-23-2007, 04:04 PM
haha, the HBRacing thing again. Thats funny stuff seeing how Baker was the one that posted about it and made the decals. Yet somehow I got tied up with advertising. As for that chat room convo, I offered to help someone out on it as they were crying about money and they were supposedly passing through soon. I never said anything about $$ or that I would do it cheaper than Doug. I actually have helped out alot of people and didn't charge them a dime. If they came down here I would help them with it no charge, but if they wanted me to do all the work and them nothing then yes, I would charge them.

We are missing someone. Where is the rest of the anti-dale mofia at now? I have known some stuborn people in my day but you guys are the most I have ever seen. Talk about being stuck in the past. Most people have moved on and forgotton some of the problems in the past. It doesn't help to hold grudges guys, it just tears things apart. I would understand it if people were attacking you but that isn't the case. Its ok to disagree, that is what makes this place so great. But to take it all personal when it isn't even you that the problems are with is a bit much.

rollie
03-23-2007, 04:33 PM
lol enough arguing, haha i know id i hit the lottery, i would buy the name, eveything back from dinli, everything back from ATK and start up cdale again, with all the old models exactly how they where, except i would hire a few key guys to build engines and test them until they are the most reliable engines around, then i would sponsor a national rider and get more dealers...sounds like a plan, now all i need is like 100,000,000 dollars, hahaha

happyboy
03-23-2007, 04:40 PM
true that rollie...it really is a good machine, just too bad it didn't last.

rollie
03-23-2007, 04:55 PM
Yeah deffintly, Its too bad they get absolutely no regoniton either, i watched a video of a KFX they other day and one of the guys says "this is the first quad with an all aluminum chassis, its amazing", What if ATK gave a up and comming pro-am a good deal on a 450MX, i bet he would be winning races, and what wins on sunday, sells on monday, i know ive thought about how to get cdales or ATK back way to much, haha and ive never even owned one or ridden one, but i still want one, lol

54warrior
03-23-2007, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by rollie
lol enough arguing, haha i know id i hit the lottery, i would buy the name, eveything back from dinli, everything back from ATK and start up cdale again, with all the old models exactly how they where, except i would hire a few key guys to build engines and test them until they are the most reliable engines around, then i would sponsor a national rider and get more dealers...sounds like a plan, now all i need is like 100,000,000 dollars, hahaha


the sad thing about your statement is that it's pretty much true. All of the "kinks" have been worked out. Alot of improvements have been made to these things by just "regular Joe's". Things that should have been done by Cannondale prior to releasing them.

Cannondale was 95% of the way there. That extra 5% is what really cost them though.

cdrookie
03-23-2007, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by happyboy

We are missing someone. Where is the rest of the anti-dale mofia at now? I have known some stuborn people in my day but you guys are the most I have ever seen. Talk about being stuck in the past. Most people have moved on and forgotton some of the problems in the past. It doesn't help to hold grudges guys, it just tears things apart. I would understand it if people were attacking you but that isn't the case. Its ok to disagree, that is what makes this place so great. But to take it all personal when it isn't even you that the problems are with is a bit much. [/B]


right here, thanks for thinking about me:ermm: the problems of the past were mostly caused by your buddies the R&D team. talk about stubborn... they were/are as bad as any of us. i've said it before- cannondaleriders USE to be a great place, it's a joke now(or when i left) doubt it changed much since then.

happyboy
03-24-2007, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by cdrookie
the problems of the past were mostly caused by your buddies the R&D team. talk about stubborn... they were/are as bad as any of us. i've said it before- cannondaleriders USE to be a great place, it's a joke now(or when i left) doubt it changed much since then.

I will agree on the first half, they were as stubborn as some of you. But, for good reason. Why just let go of an idea because people disagree. And most of the ideas panned out. The arguements weren't handled very well no. And as for how it is. I would say its better than before. Ideas are thrown out there and discussed but there really isn't many extreme people. Well, there is 1. :) and he just needs to be beat into submission sometimes. A community is only as good as its worst members. And well, the most negative people are gone.

So rookie, destroyed any quads lately? I haven't heard much about what you are up to. There aren't many of us out there than can literally destroy a quad. :) Bending frames sucks!

witech
03-25-2007, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Ron89
It's almost funny how Cannondales get a better rep after they go under. With the devotion from all of the members, these machines are amazing. Before, no one took them seriously, but now, they are very competitive and quick. Now is a perfect time to buy them. They are cheap, powerful, and come with a good warrenty(the cannondale websites!!!). It's almost like a 24/7 live support. You have a problem, you get an answer. No take it to your dealer BS.

I think the company going under is sort of what kept them rolling. With no dealers around, the only people that kept the cannondales were the ones that sucked it up and opened the motor. All the people that drove them into the ground and threw them into the garage after every ride got rid of theirs and they eventually fell into the hands of those that loved them. With the challenge of starting from scratch with a flawed piece of machinery, I am amazed with the progress. These things are practically perfect now and all the problems now arise from all the horsepower these throw out. What a wonderful site. I am so glad that there are people that put time into these and make them what they should have been in the first place. The ultimate race machine. I will always be amazed with what such a small community can do with a horde of broken bikes.


Inspiring statement. It really has been wonderfull to meet,work,ride and race with such a diverse group of people from all walks of life with just a rare machine in common.