trx 250r vs atc 250r

[mineralgrey01gt]

Which one of these is quicker? I would think it would be the atc. I love them both and would love to own both one day. Also how much would it take to make the atc run with the new 450's?

[GPracer2500]

In a drag race the ATC's lower weight and slightly higher stock compression probably gives it the edge. The 86 ATC has a better carb than the 85. Don't know if that makes a big difference. I'm guessing it makes some difference (if must, right?) but nothing earth shattering.

My 85 has a PT high rev pipe, a little bit of porting, PJ38 carb, dual stage reeds in stock cage, and lots of compression. Some chassis mods too. In sand drags I can hold my own against some 450s but not all. A good rider on a well settup 450 can generally take me. And to be competitive I've got to get everything just right--the right tires for the situation, a great launch, get my gear changes just right, etc. If I make one mistake anywhere in the run it's a blow-out. I'll jump on some of my buds 450s and it's like, wow--this is a LOT easier to go fast on (so much more forgiving of little mistakes).

That's been my experience but YMMV.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3605/pc150003resizeemailvh1.jpg

[250r4life]

when are you going to the dunes again GP? i was supposed to go this weekend, but after looking at the weather report, i think i will hold out for next weekend...

how did those shaved sand sharks work for ya?


i still want to meet sometime and race/ride...

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
In a drag race the ATC's lower weight and slightly higher stock compression probably gives it the edge. The 86 ATC has a better carb than the 85. Don't know if that makes a big difference. I'm guessing it makes some difference (if must, right?) but nothing earth shattering.

My 85 has a PT high rev pipe, a little bit of porting, PJ38 carb, dual stage reeds in stock cage, and lots of compression. Some chassis mods too. In sand drags I can hold my own against some 450s but not all. A good rider on a well settup 450 can generally take me. And to be competitive I've got to get everything just right--the right tires for the situation, a great launch, get my gear changes just right, etc. If I make one mistake anywhere in the run it's a blow-out. I'll jump on some of my buds 450s and it's like, wow--this is a LOT easier to go fast on (so much more forgiving of little mistakes).

That's been my experience but YMMV.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3605/pc150003resizeemailvh1.jpg

Whining... Buy a 450 if your ATC is that hard. Don't punish yourself. Remember, amped up 450's are way more reliable than a 2stroke anyway.

It's not nearly that difficult to drag race for me on my TRX though - and I'm not even a racer. Shift points on an MX or midrange type 2stroke port job are not hard to hit. I dune all day long out there on a nice midrange OEM 88 cylinder and I'm not having any problems. 450's for me are too smooth. I feel like I'm in a truck. That's just my personal preference... Shift point problems are usually more associated with full 2stroke drag motors, albeit making huge hp numbers. I'd check your setup or sell it.

My most difficult thing is the hole shot. My nose wants to rise and I'll often lose the hole shot to the 4stroke.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Whining... [snip]

Whining? Yikes dude. I'm not whining about my ATC. I'm just explaining that on some runs I can hang and on others I'm not even close. The issue is that if I can't stay on top of 4th or 5th (depending on the hill) then I'm done. The only way I'm competitive on Oldsmobile is if I can get 5th to keep spinning and not bog down. A small variation in speed early in the whoops makes the difference on whether I can carry 5th to the top or not. Which paddles I'm running also makes a big difference. Gees...

What's with the attitude in your post? "....Buy a 450 if your ATC is that hard....". WTF??? "...check your setup or sell it..." WTF??? I like my ATC.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by 250r4life
when are you going to the dunes again GP? i was supposed to go this weekend, but after looking at the weather report, i think i will hold out for next weekend...

how did those shaved sand sharks work for ya?


i still want to meet sometime and race/ride...

Not sure. I too want to meet for some riding...we'll have to go soon, we're running out of time for this year.

The cut sandsharks have been a valuable learning experience, and they are much improved hill drag tires over what I started with. I'll post details soon....

[250r4life]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Not sure. I too want to meet for some riding...we'll have to go soon, we're running out of time for this year.

The cut sandsharks have been a valuable learning experience, and they are much improved hill drag tires over what I started with. I'll post details soon....

im thinking of making a dune trip next weekend, as supposedly the weather is supposed to cool of... i cant beleive how hot it has been here recently- its ridiculous...

where do you usually ride here in the valley? we'll have to meet as it doesnt look like we'll be able to meet up at the dunes...

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by 250r4life
im thinking of making a dune trip next weekend, as supposedly the weather is supposed to cool of... i cant beleive how hot it has been here recently- its ridiculous...

where do you usually ride here in the valley? we'll have to meet as it doesnt look like we'll be able to meet up at the dunes...

Next weekend as in the 17th or the 24th? I might be able to do the 24th.

[HondaATC500X]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Remember, amped up 450's are way more reliable than a 2stroke anyway.



I think the factory service manual for the 450R recommends inspecting/changing the piston more often then the 250R manual does :devil:

[86 Quad R]

an "amped up 450" is no where near as reliable as a 2 stroke.......... http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/images/smilies/insane.gif

[250r4life]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Next weekend as in the 17th or the 24th? I might be able to do the 24th.

as in the 24th... im gunna see if i can round up the troops for a guy trip... leave the wives and kids at home...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by HondaATC500X
I think the factory service manual for the 450R recommends inspecting/changing the piston more often then the 250R manual does :devil:

ever hear of a word called sarcasm?

[HondaATC500X]

Naw, whered you come up with that from?

[deathman53]

I too believe that the 450's may also require more top end maintance than a 250r and when it does, it will cost atleast 2-3 times what a 250r will cost. Its really easy to do a 250r or just about any 2 stroke, about $150 in parts and $60 for the cylinder to be bored(if needed). By the time you are done with a 450 top end, a shop would charge you about $500. Add in the cost of very frequent oil changes and valve adjustments, your maintence cost is double what a 250r costs.

[mineralgrey01gt]

i never knew that about 450's. Im glad i turned down buying one now!

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by deathman53
I too believe that the 450's may also require more top end maintance than a 250r and when it does, it will cost atleast 2-3 times what a 250r will cost. Its really easy to do a 250r or just about any 2 stroke, about $150 in parts and $60 for the cylinder to be bored(if needed). By the time you are done with a 450 top end, a shop would charge you about $500. Add in the cost of very frequent oil changes and valve adjustments, your maintence cost is double what a 250r costs.

deathman's right, but he one thing he failed to mention was the short valve life, not just adjustment, on most of the new 450's. My '04 450R was only two years old when it got the first valve job and all four valves replaced. These are not the old reliable 300EX and 400EX motors of the past, the valve train on the 450's takes a serious pounding, and honestly, they don't take it as well as a two-stroke does. If you think a 450 sounds bad, the 250F dirtbikes are even worse. Honda recommends 10 hours for piston and valve replacement and not to exceed 30 hours. I've seen them go longer but it's kinda scary, and risky.

[Kirt13]

My friends 450r just blew the crank. He was in 3rd gear just putting around when it went.

[deathman53]

I know this from expierence on my 450. On mine, the cam chain stretched, bent the valves and cracked the piston. I had to get new valves, get the seats cuts, new springs and such, new piston and gaskets. The only thing was wasn't new on the top end was head, cover, cam and cylinder. New cam chain and tensioner was gotten also. It was quite expensive, now I have transmittion problems with it, another grand lighter my bank account will be.

I have ktm450exc, I love this bike, but the maintence on it is rediculas, valve adjustments, 80 hours calls for a engine tear down and new crank bearings, piston replacement around the same time, Every 5-10 hours of riding oil change. ALso none of it is easy to do!!! The valves were a nightmare to do, there 2 oil filters, 2 oil screens, the oil drain bolt is a nightmare to get to and the 2 oil screens are a nightmare to line up and get the bolts in fast enough, so the screens don't fall out. Imagine doing this every 5-10 hours, it gets expensive and a huge hassle. I have to do this about every 300-400 miles. My crf450r hybrid isn't as bad, there is only 1 oil filter and nothing else, but you have to change the oil more often on it. Atleast the crf450r has a seperate oil for the tranny.

compare all of this to my 250r's. Oil change is a 5 minute thing, no oil screens and filters, no screens and bolts to line-up, don't need to change it as often(and its cheaper also). Top end maintence is easy, once a year $150-200 for the top end, $40 new reeds, thats it!!! I don't get these people saying that a 2 stroke is alot of maintence, compared to old school 4 strokes its more maintence. I doubt in 20 years you will find 450 motors never taken apart on the same piston, bore, valves, cam, valve springs, etc. I know of a good number of 200(x,m,s), 185s, 90, 350x and 250x motors on the stock piston and never taken apart. They all run perfect. I have a 86 200x, that was never taken apart and ran great, when the motor was rebuilt, things were like new inside of the motor, very little wear on the top end components. Sorry, the performance of the new tech 4 stroke motors wears off the atraction after the first time you have to work on the top end and you will find it costs alot more than you think and replace more stuff than you planned on.

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by 86 Quad R
an "amped up 450" is no where near as reliable as a 2 stroke.......... http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/images/smilies/insane.gif

No as noted, I have an attitude about the 4stroke solution to 2stroke pollution. I was being sarcastic. :D

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by deathman53
I too believe that the 450's may also require more top end maintance than a 250r and when it does, it will cost atleast 2-3 times what a 250r will cost. Its really easy to do a 250r or just about any 2 stroke, about $150 in parts and $60 for the cylinder to be bored(if needed). By the time you are done with a 450 top end, a shop would charge you about $500. Add in the cost of very frequent oil changes and valve adjustments, your maintence cost is double what a 250r costs.

$150 is being generous, I think. If you're in the know, it's cheaper. I just picked up a piston on ebay for $29.
30 piston kit
11 wrist pin
base and head gaskets, what, $20?

I'm nikasil'd so my next top end will cost me $59 bucks and an afternoon.

Oh and get this. It can all be done basically with 12, 14mm sockets and a needle nose pliers.

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by mineralgrey01gt
i never knew that about 450's. Im glad i turned down buying one now!
You're the guy that I make posts like this for. You and the principle of the matter. History indicates that people will follow if enough support is perceived. When the leader waving the banner is the one making the money, then people, do some simple math for cryin' out loud!

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by deathman53
I know this from expierence on my 450. On mine, the cam chain stretched, bent the valves and cracked the piston. I had to get new valves, get the seats cuts, new springs and such, new piston and gaskets. The only thing was wasn't new on the top end was head, cover, cam and cylinder. New cam chain and tensioner was gotten also. It was quite expensive, now I have transmittion problems with it, another grand lighter my bank account will be.

I have ktm450exc, I love this bike, but the maintence on it is rediculas, valve adjustments, 80 hours calls for a engine tear down and new crank bearings, piston replacement around the same time, Every 5-10 hours of riding oil change. ALso none of it is easy to do!!! The valves were a nightmare to do, there 2 oil filters, 2 oil screens, the oil drain bolt is a nightmare to get to and the 2 oil screens are a nightmare to line up and get the bolts in fast enough, so the screens don't fall out. Imagine doing this every 5-10 hours, it gets expensive and a huge hassle. I have to do this about every 300-400 miles. My crf450r hybrid isn't as bad, there is only 1 oil filter and nothing else, but you have to change the oil more often on it. Atleast the crf450r has a seperate oil for the tranny.

compare all of this to my 250r's. Oil change is a 5 minute thing, no oil screens and filters, no screens and bolts to line-up, don't need to change it as often(and its cheaper also). Top end maintence is easy, once a year $150-200 for the top end, $40 new reeds, thats it!!! I don't get these people saying that a 2 stroke is alot of maintence, compared to old school 4 strokes its more maintence. I doubt in 20 years you will find 450 motors never taken apart on the same piston, bore, valves, cam, valve springs, etc. I know of a good number of 200(x,m,s), 185s, 90, 350x and 250x motors on the stock piston and never taken apart. They all run perfect. I have a 86 200x, that was never taken apart and ran great, when the motor was rebuilt, things were like new inside of the motor, very little wear on the top end components. Sorry, the performance of the new tech 4 stroke motors wears off the atraction after the first time you have to work on the top end and you will find it costs alot more than you think and replace more stuff than you planned on.

I have 3 TRX250R's. 2 of them have the original piston in them. Granted they are relatively low hours machines and one is getting tired, but you're right, people are not being told that their 450 is not a new and improved 400ex. It's just like any other amped up 4stroke. It's honestly a real shame!

2strokes displaced 4strokes in GP racing and offroad bikes. The TRX250R was the best all around ATV. Then 4strokes were literally shoved back on the circuit but at twice the displacement along with the displacement rules thrown out the window to shoe horn them in the otherwise smaller division and then people want to shout about the benefits of 4strokes. It's fcuking ridiculous and what's sad to me is just how easily people can be lead to their own slaughter. Like I said before my next top end will cost me $60 and be done in a few easy hours - AND it's an absolute scream to ride.

[deathman53]

yep, the first time these "drones" have a top end failure, they will know what I'm talking about. I love my 450's, but noting compares to how easy and cheap it is to maintain a 2 stroke. Top end rebuilds for me involve new rings and gaskets, $60 is being generous, as my bikes have a nikeksil lining, usually I replace the reeds twice a year also, WOW, whopping $40. Piston replacement I do as needed, If the piston looks worn, I will replace it, that is the most expensive part ~150 for a big bore piston.

i had a conversation with a salesmen at my local dealer, and he was pushing the 450s down my throat was well and i told him that i was a owner of a 87 250r. He was more less telling me that the R was over and its time to move onto the new 4 strokes and boy did i let him have it! I told him, you watch and see in 20+ years from now how many 2004 or 2005 450s are going to be running strong like he old banshees and 250rs...

This is what i honestly beleive all the big companys want...You buy a 7,200.00 450 out the door after taxes, etc...you ride it for 3 or 4 years, do the basic maintenence and then once it gets just a tad bit old it takes a dump on you, the motor is going to cost about 2K-2500 to fix, but why bother when the whole bike is only worth 2800-3ish, so you sitting their scratching your head thinking to yourself "is it worth fixing?" but then you see the new 2010 450s out and you say hell with it (like most people would) and go out and buy another timebomb and bang now they go another 7 Grand out of your bank account


I bet it makes the big companys sick seeing these old cheap and simple machines running around...if you have a 250r, banshee LT 500 or a old 2 stroke of anything, keep up with the rebuilds, run them a tad bit on the rich side and youll save thousands compared to if you went 250f or 450

[250r4life]

now im not saying that i disagree with what is being said, and nor do i say that i agree with it either... i happen to own one of each, and also like to play devils advocate a lot...

no- you will not see these 450s in 15-20 years still on the same piston without being opened, still running like a champ... you wont... my 250r had never had the head off or anything until 2005, when i beefed it up... but it was running like a champ until then and was not tired... these new 450s will not do that...
however, what isnt being mentioned, is it isnt exactly a fair comparison. a stock 250r is not that fast, and will not compare with a stock 450. and by stock i mean stock engined, but with pipe and etc... in order for the 250r to be as fast as the 450, it needs to be modded, and when modded, you will not see 15 years on the same top end like you do with a stock 250r...

so your comparison isnt exactly apples to apples... im not denying that it is much simpler and less expensive to rebuild or maintain 2 strokes... not at all...

also, the suspension of say, the yfz, is head and shoulders above the suspension of the 250r...

amd the last thing you forgot to mention, is that the new 4 strokes can have a warranty purchased for a few hundred dollars. i think i paid $300 for a 4.5 year extended warranty... im covered... if something were to go, i wont have to pay anything, and since i dont trust the mechanics at the dealership, i would have them get the parts and do the rebuild myselfr...

like i said... im not saying youre wrong or right, but the argument isnt as simple or cut and dry as ya'll make it out to be...

[250r4life]

again, after re-reading some posts... a lot of you guys are way too one sided...

[250r4life]

and i love how when you guys are talking about rebuilds, its always the best case scenario 2 stroke build vs the worst case scenario 4 stroke build...

i love 2 strokes, and i love my 250r, but a lot of what is being said is biased...

and youre exactly right- for most uneducated people whoever shouts the loudest is who they will follow... some people are gunna hear you 250r guys and follow, some are going to hear the 450 guys and follow...

i dont shout either one over the other...

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by 250r4life
and i love how when you guys are talking about rebuilds, its always the best case scenario 2 stroke build vs the worst case scenario 4 stroke build...

i love 2 strokes, and i love my 250r, but a lot of what is being said is biased...

and youre exactly right- for most uneducated people whoever shouts the loudest is who they will follow... some people are gunna hear you 250r guys and follow, some are going to hear the 450 guys and follow...

i dont shout either one over the other...

I sure as hell wasn't talking about worst case scenarios in my post, just fact. I own two 450R's, and I don't think I'm biased towards 2-strokes, just stating the harsh reality of the new 4-strokes. I am a fanatic about maintenence, and only two years before my '04 needed a valve job seems like a very short life span for a valve train. I work on alot of different machines in my shop and the newer 4-strokes just don't hold up like the older motors do. I've seen four or five Z400/KFX's come through the shop with the valves pounded into the head, and needing complete replacement.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
I sure as hell wasn't talking about worst case scenarios in my post, just fact. I own two 450R's, and I don't think I'm biased towards 2-strokes, just stating the harsh reality of the new 4-strokes. I am a fanatic about maintenence, and only two years before my '04 needed a valve job seems like a very short life span for a valve train. I work on alot of different machines in my shop and the newer 4-strokes just don't hold up like the older motors do. I've seen four or five Z400/KFX's come through the shop with the valves pounded into the head, and needing complete replacement.

im sorry- i didnt recall saying that rich250rracer was at the basis of my criticism for his posts... :eek2:

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by 250r4life
im sorry- i didnt recall saying that rich250rracer was at the basis of my criticism for his posts... :eek2:

No problem:D

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by 250r4life
now im not saying that i disagree with what is being said, and nor do i say that i agree with it either... i happen to own one of each, and also like to play devils advocate a lot...

no- you will not see these 450s in 15-20 years still on the same piston without being opened, still running like a champ... you wont... my 250r had never had the head off or anything until 2005, when i beefed it up... but it was running like a champ until then and was not tired... these new 450s will not do that...
however, what isnt being mentioned, is it isnt exactly a fair comparison. a stock 250r is not that fast, and will not compare with a stock 450. and by stock i mean stock engined, but with pipe and etc... in order for the 250r to be as fast as the 450, it needs to be modded, and when modded, you will not see 15 years on the same top end like you do with a stock 250r...

so your comparison isnt exactly apples to apples... im not denying that it is much simpler and less expensive to rebuild or maintain 2 strokes... not at all...

also, the suspension of say, the yfz, is head and shoulders above the suspension of the 250r...

amd the last thing you forgot to mention, is that the new 4 strokes can have a warranty purchased for a few hundred dollars. i think i paid $300 for a 4.5 year extended warranty... im covered... if something were to go, i wont have to pay anything, and since i dont trust the mechanics at the dealership, i would have them get the parts and do the rebuild myselfr...

like i said... im not saying youre wrong or right, but the argument isnt as simple or cut and dry as ya'll make it out to be...

First of all a stock TRX250r or a stock CR250R? I've heard you mention this point before. TRX250R's came detuned from the factory as noted by their reduced output compared to it's contemporary 250cc CR. Either way, the CR or a ported TRX with a better intake and exhaust is less reliable? No sir. That's not correct. Either way again, if I take my modded 250R which is faster than many 450's and tally the maintenance bill against the average 450R modded or NOT, I know for a fact that I will spend less money. It's not apples to apples, you're correct. That's my point. Honda wants to sell me an expensive orange, but I want an apple - that I have more fun riding anyway. I don't get any meat in your point about maintenance. I would like to, but it's simply not there. Why? Because it's not a matter of opinion. It doesn't matter what either of us says about it. The fact is the average rider on 2strokes will spend LESS. Anything other than a drag engine is NOT going to cost as much as your rotating galaxy of moving parts so for most of us, that is what counts.

You say the YFZ suspension is better? What are YOU comparing? Apples to apples I assume, meaning stock for stock? I've ridden the YFZ and I don't agree with you. Even compare to my stock 89. So am I wrong or you? How would either of us prove such an assertion? Dirt Wheels articles? Interesting limb for you to climb out on.

And lastly, my shouting about 2strokes isn't even a peep compared to the roar of manufacturer's 4stroke marketing machine. Sounds like you disagree though? If you do, that would be hilarious. I think you stated another not so clearly defined point with that one...

Have fun on your YFZ. Nothing personal. I'm glad you dig it. But for my objective, un-biased opinions, I personally wouldn't pay more for it than I could sell it for a profit. God knows I wouldn't ride the time$bomb and certainly not with a razor sharp, *** kicker 250R to have to ride.

[GPracer2500]

iamjasyn, I'm guessing your not the greatest at making friends.... ;)

Now calm down (if you're not). If you're going to have such a brash style of interacting then you've got to expect people to be put-off by you (as I am). Only you could turn a simple "which is faster" type of question into a some sort of righteous crusade.

[250r4life]

its gunna be like that huh?

alright... let the games begin- lets dance...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by deathman53
Add in the cost of very frequent oil changes and valve adjustments, your maintence cost is double what a 250r costs.


are we forgetting that you have to add 2 stroke oil to run a 250r?

i change my oil in my YFZ after every good weekend of riding... lets say $3 a quart (its actually less) and just shy under 2 quarts, well thats $6 for oil for a weekned...

on a good weekend of riding on my 250r, i would go through 15 gallons of fuel... well lets see thats 60 ounces of yamalube, so we'll say two bottles of that, what, is yamalube now $8 a bottle, so that is $16... plus the fact that my yfz uses half the gas that my 250r uses, so there is another $25 a weekend right there...

we also have to consider the multiple spark plugs that are purchased for a two stroke that arent on a 4 stroke...

it may take a little time- but where are the excessive costs with adjusting the valves?

[250r4life]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by iamjasyn
$150 is being generous, I think. If you're in the know, it's cheaper. I just picked up a piston on ebay for $29.
30 piston kit
11 wrist pin
base and head gaskets, what, $20?

I'm nikasil'd so my next top end will cost me $59 bucks and an afternoon.

Oh and get this. It can all be done basically with 12, 14mm sockets and a needle nose pliers. [/QUOTE

are you kidding me?

you picked up a piston on ebay for $29- that is not retail so it is completely irrelevant...

thats like if i bought a yfz on ebay for 3k, and said "oh yfzs are cheaper to buy then 250rs"

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
$150 is being generous, I think. If you're in the know, it's cheaper. I just picked up a piston on ebay for $29.
30 piston kit
11 wrist pin
base and head gaskets, what, $20?

I'm nikasil'd so my next top end will cost me $59 bucks and an afternoon.

Oh and get this. It can all be done basically with 12, 14mm sockets and a needle nose pliers.

this is all best case scenario... so what about when that nikasil gets scared and you have to send it to US Chrome and pay $230 to have it re-nikasealed...

and at the same time when whatever chewed up your cylinder takes out your dome also?

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
$150 is being generous, I think. If you're in the know, it's cheaper. I just picked up a piston on ebay for $29.
30 piston kit
11 wrist pin
base and head gaskets, what, $20?

I'm nikasil'd so my next top end will cost me $59 bucks and an afternoon.

Oh and get this. It can all be done basically with 12, 14mm sockets and a needle nose pliers.

once again i have to return and acknowledge your intelligence as to your reference to a $30 piston, as if this is anywhere even close to the norm...

thats awesome!!!:devil:

like i said- you are biased, and are twisting your numbers and getting away from the truth and reality to help your argument...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
I have 3 TRX250R's. 2 of them have the original piston in them. Granted they are relatively low hours machines and one is getting tired, but you're right, people are not being told that their 450 is not a new and improved 400ex. It's just like any other amped up 4stroke. It's honestly a real shame!

2strokes displaced 4strokes in GP racing and offroad bikes. The TRX250R was the best all around ATV. Then 4strokes were literally shoved back on the circuit but at twice the displacement along with the displacement rules thrown out the window to shoe horn them in the otherwise smaller division and then people want to shout about the benefits of 4strokes. It's fcuking ridiculous and what's sad to me is just how easily people can be lead to their own slaughter. Like I said before my next top end will cost me $60 and be done in a few easy hours - AND it's an absolute scream to ride.

i love how i have seen you revert back to this same argument for the past several months on here...

you keep going back to cc's compared to cc's... nobody is arguing that- anybody who thinks 4 strokes can compare with 2 strokes on the same cc level is foolish... why do you have to beat a dead horse when everybody has already conceded to the fact...

let me guess- you dont have anything relevant to say...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by deathman53
yep, the first time these "drones" have a top end failure, they will know what I'm talking about. I love my 450's, but noting compares to how easy and cheap it is to maintain a 2 stroke. Top end rebuilds for me involve new rings and gaskets, $60 is being generous, as my bikes have a nikeksil lining, usually I replace the reeds twice a year also, WOW, whopping $40. Piston replacement I do as needed, If the piston looks worn, I will replace it, that is the most expensive part ~150 for a big bore piston.

c'mon deathman... this is exactly what i am talking about... comparing best case scenario 2 stroke with worst case scenario 4 stroke...

you are talking about 4 stroke top end FAILURE compared with re-ringing maintenance of a 2 stroke...

if a 2 stroke has a top end failure, it is a lot more pricey...

i know from experience... now im still not denying that 4 strokes are more expensive when something goes, but...

i had a duncan 265 pv top end... one day my wrist pin bearing decided to go out...

nikasil was $240, shipping to US chrome was another 15, my dome cost me another $60, my o-rings another $20, my base gasket another $10, my piston another $125, my wrist pin bearing another $10...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Honda86
i

This is what i honestly beleive all the big companys want...You buy a 7,200.00 450 out the door after taxes, etc...you ride it for 3 or 4 years, do the basic maintenence and then once it gets just a tad bit old it takes a dump on you, the motor is going to cost about 2K-2500 to fix, but why bother when the whole bike is only worth 2800-3ish, so you sitting their scratching your head thinking to yourself "is it worth fixing?" but then you see the new 2010 450s out and you say hell with it (like most people would) and go out and buy another timebomb and bang now they go another 7 Grand out of your bank account



i bought my 06 yfz for $6200 OTD. that is inclduing a 4.5 year extended warranty- so it is covered for 5 years... i do not have to take it to the dealer to service it, i can add an exhuast and filter, and if something goes, it is covered... in 3 or 4 years, i would bet i will still be able to get 4k for it- here in AZ i never see 04 YFZs going for less than 4k, and the 04s had the smaller motors even...
so i dont pull a jason and twist the figures, i will say i did get my 06 at year end, and so i was able to get it a little cheaper...

so in 4 years, i could sell my bike, get another brand new one for 2k more, and will always be covered under a warranty...

i completely understand wanting to hold onto the 250r as they are no longer being made... but when the exact same bike is being made, there isnt as much incentive...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
I've seen four or five Z400/KFX's come through the shop with the valves pounded into the head, and needing complete replacement.

suzuki has never made a solid bike- what else is new?

i know dozens of people who would burn up their old suzuki 250rs and quadzillas every single trip...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
First of all a stock TRX250r or a stock CR250R?

what the heck are you talking about? who said anything about a CR250...

of course we are talking about trx...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
TRX250R's came detuned from the factory as noted by their reduced output compared to it's contemporary 250cc CR.

whats your point? what bike doesnt come de-tuned from the factory... it is what it is... the YFZ come de-tuned as well...

man- im learning all types of stuff from you J... teach on....

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
ported TRX with a better intake and exhaust is less reliable? No sir. That's not correct.


yes- a ported trx is less reliable than a stock 250r...

and no- that wasnt what i was originally saying- i was saying that when you go and do considerable mods to the 250r, it is not more reliable than the yfz, especially when you do the mods to make it faster...

obviously this is debateable as who ports the engine, who assembles it, etc... but in general it does apply...

[250r4life]

just a side note- i love how it is ignored that a- i own a 250r 2- i love the 250r and d- i know a considerable amount about the 250r.....


all in addition to owning a YFZ>..

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
[B] No sir. That's not correct.]

prove it

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Either way again, if I take my modded 250R which is faster than many 450's and tally the maintenance bill against the average 450R modded or NOT, I know for a fact that I will spend less money.

you know for a fact? alright well facts are capable of being proven- so i anticipate you showing me...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Why? Because it's not a matter of opinion.

oh the irony in you telling me that... considering a considerable amount of your argument is purely that- opinion...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
The fact is the average rider on 2strokes will spend LESS.

the fact huh? so where is the census and elaborate studies that shows a 2 stroke rider will spend less?

now if there were 2007 trx 250rs your statement would have more merit, but there is not... that is what you need to realize- youre comparing 1986-1989 250rs with brand new 450s...

apparently you dont understand the concept of brand new- meaning every nut and bolt on the frickin bike is brand new- as in, never having been used before...

the older the 250rs get, the more maintenance they are going to need...

and no, we are not comparing what the 450s will be in 20 years compared with what the 250rs today... i knot its not a fair comparison to put the 20 year old machine against the brand new one, but it is reality...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn


You say the YFZ suspension is better? What are YOU comparing? Apples to apples I assume, meaning stock for stock? I've ridden the YFZ and I don't agree with you. Even compare to my stock 89. So am I wrong or you? How would either of us prove such an assertion? Dirt Wheels articles? Interesting limb for you to climb out on.


yes- the YFZ suspension is better... and yes, i am comparing stock for stock...

you've ridden a yfz- congrats! I OWN ONE! better yet- i own both the YFZ and 250r, adn have extensive time on both machines... in fact, i have ridden every single year of 250r, starting way back with first atc...

yes- you are wrong and I am right.. simple as that... :devil:

no- dirt wheels has no place in an intelligent conversation- theyre no smarter than you and are as bout as unbiased as you are also...

now how would either of us prove such an assertion... well, unlike your previous and many assertions that can not be proven, this one actually could... now have actual tests been performed and can i site such references- absolutely not...

now obviously there are many many many variables that would have to be controlled, and i do not wish to waste time describing them in detail, but having them land unevenly and seeing their responses and how much of an angle they can land without rolling over...

its sufficient for me to say i have extensive time on both of them, and the yfz's suspension as far as jumping and landing is hands down better than the stock 250r...

again- remember that i own and love the 250r- but reality is reality...

[Aceman]

Nothing to add really, but 250r4life you're on a roll. 18 posts in a row!! That's gotta be some kind of record!::p By the way if you would like to break up a quote so you can reply to each statement just copy/paste the posters quoting symbols before and after each statement. It'll save you from making so many posts, I don't know maybe you just like filling the pages up.lol

Like this:


Originally posted by 250r4life
the fact huh? so where is the census and elaborate studies that shows a 2 stroke rider will spend less?

now if there were 2007 trx 250rs your statement would have more merit, but there is not... that is what you need to realize- youre comparing 1986-1989 250rs with brand new 450s...

and


Originally posted by 250r4life
apparently you dont understand the concept of brand new- meaning every nut and bolt on the frickin bike is brand new- as in, never having been used before...

the older the 250rs get, the more maintenance they are going to need...

and no, we are not comparing what the 450s will be in 20 years compared with what the 250rs today... i knot its not a fair comparison to put the 20 year old machine against the brand new one, but it is reality...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn


And lastly, my shouting about 2strokes isn't even a peep compared to the roar of manufacturer's 4stroke marketing machine. Sounds like you disagree though? If you do, that would be hilarious. I think you stated another not so clearly defined point with that one...
.


what does that have to do with the price of tea in china...

what does that have to do with me?

you dont see me on here telling people that the yfz is OVERALL superior to the 250r, or vice versa. why? because there are some aspects in which the yfz is better, and there are some aspects where the 250r is better...

its all on what importance you give to what aspect...

i have a word you need to go research, learn, and understand...

S-U-B-J-E-C-T-I-V-E

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
. I think you stated another not so clearly defined point with that one...
.

clear enough for you...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
it. But for my objective, un-biased opinions, I personally .

lol... :D

and im the pope...


i do think you need to pay special attention to the last word that i quoted though... it goes back to that whole subjective word that i wanted you to learn...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Aceman
Nothing to add really, but 250r4life you're on a roll. 18 posts in a row!! That's gotta be some kind of record!::p By the way if you would like to break up a quote so you can reply to each statement just copy/paste the posters quoting symbols before and after each statement. It'll save you from making so many posts, I don't know maybe you just like filling the pages up.lol



you ruined my streak aceman!!! :D

i had 3 more to go ;)

[my88r]

the 250r will and always be the the best but one good thing about 4 stroke i mean only one good thing about is that parts wise there is more and even though is parts for the 250r its fading . asked lagers why they stop making frames and they send the demand is low and alot of companys have been telling me that which is said

[250r4life]

now before i go and get heck from all the die hard 250r guys, let me say a thing or two...

i absolutely love the 250r and think it is a sweet bike... for years i didnt think i would ever own another bike...

i, like many of you, would have a huge chub if they came out with a 07 250r... a brand new 07 250r, at like 265 ccs with larger cooling capacity like many of the aftermarket cylinders, and an improved port layout, with new piggy back shocks... no question it would be in my garage... 450 wouldnt cross my mind...

i dont mean to put down the 250r in anyway, and dont think i have... just in thinking that nothing could even compare to the 250r for 15 years after they stopped producing them is a testament of how great a quad it is...

i just gotta call it how i see it...

just a hunch, but i wonder who most people would think is the more unbiased person? somebody who owns a 250r, loves it, and also has a yfz, or somebody who strictly owns 250rs and has nothing good to say about the 450s... hmm? :eek2:

[mineralgrey01gt]

im actually building a 250R right now, and may be picking up a 2005 yfz 450 rolling chassis from a friend of mine next week. I do like 4 strokes also, but always had a special place for a 250R :cool:

what i dont understand about the 450 guys is most of them will admit a fullb lown MX 250r (afterarket frame, Suspenson and a 265 PV motor) is better then a 450...but yet alot of guys will blown 7+ grand on a new stock 450 when they can get a much better quad (like new condition) for 5 grand, witch WILL do donuts around the new 450 AND WILL cost less to maintain

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by 250r4life


just a hunch, but i wonder who most people would think is the more unbiased person? somebody who owns a 250r, loves it, and also has a yfz, or somebody who strictly owns 250rs and has nothing good to say about the 450s... hmm? :eek2:

So this is a pissing contest for you. You're just a kid who likes to spray. Cause honestly, did you really expect me to respond to all that? I can imagine what your sci reserach profs would say to your prolific style. You're not trying to prove anything objectively with all that. At least I had the sense of reality to summarize my points to you in one post. I don't even know where to begin responding to you but honestly, I don't think I even know where to begin caring either. You throw the word subjective at me like its something I need to learn, but the funny thing to me is that it's the same word you need to spend some time with. You want to say I have nothing good to say about 450's. Then you might as well read more of my posts, because that assertion because its incorrect shows you, yourself to not be above being biased. So why don't you sit down with all your messy grandeur before you fall of your soap box.

I've posted this before. It's not subjective information and as for the rest of your transparent posts, I'll just let it shine like the pissing contest that it amounts to be. Why are my rants not a pissing contest? Because they're intended to be objective:

LA Sleeve's reality check (http://www.all250r.com/UsefulContent/2strokeVs4strokeMaint.pdf)

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
iamjasyn, I'm guessing your not the greatest at making friends.... ;)

Now calm down (if you're not). If you're going to have such a brash style of interacting then you've got to expect people to be put-off by you (as I am). Only you could turn a simple "which is faster" type of question into a some sort of righteous crusade.

You're right. I was intending to be a little off-putting and I expected the style of response I got. I'm ok with it. However, I don't intend for anyone to take it personally. Some people are more of an a*s than others and that's just life, but it's not about you. There are several things 4stroke I have a strong disagreement with and in this thread it starting with your long observation about 450's when this thread isn't about 4strokes... I don't go into the 450 section raising hell about 2strokes. But in here, 450's are all open season. :p Again, though please don't take it personal. My apologies if I offended you.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
... and in this thread it starting with your long observation about 450's when this thread isn't about 4strokes....

The original poster asked, "....Also how much would it take to make the atc run with the new 450's...." That's why I commented about what my experiences have been with my ATC vs. 450's.

I commented about your style because I believe you'd be far more affective at making your points if you weren't on such a high horse about things. I'd only be half surprised if there were a few folks that have crossed your path that SOLD their 250r's just to spite you. That's suppose to be a joke. The point is your statments aren't effective (regardless of whether they're right or wrong) when they're delivered in an unecessarily insulting manner....somthing to think about.

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
The original poster asked, "....Also how much would it take to make the atc run with the new 450's...." That's why I commented about what my experiences have been with my ATC vs. 450's.

You're right.


I commented about your style because I believe you'd be far more affective at making your points if you weren't on such a high horse about things. I'd only be half surprised if there were a few folks that have crossed your path that SOLD their 250r's just to spite you. That's suppose to be a joke. The point is your statments aren't effective (regardless of whether they're right or wrong) when they're delivered in an unecessarily insulting manner....somthing to think about.
Point noted. Thanks.

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
I sure as hell wasn't talking about worst case scenarios in my post, just fact. I own two 450R's, and I don't think I'm biased towards 2-strokes, just stating the harsh reality of the new 4-strokes. I am a fanatic about maintenence, and only two years before my '04 needed a valve job seems like a very short life span for a valve train. I work on alot of different machines in my shop and the newer 4-strokes just don't hold up like the older motors do. I've seen four or five Z400/KFX's come through the shop with the valves pounded into the head, and needing complete replacement.

250rForNow: Are you not listening? Did you skip this post? Because you were more interested in telling me how I'm being biased when it seems you're not interested in hearing anyone else tell you the same thing. Denial is more than a river in Egypt. Like I said before, I'm glad you dig your YFZ. Chill out. Sell your R. I don't give a rat's a*s. I don't knock people for liking 450r's. I just dislike the industry telling me I have to. You're not acting any better than anyone else you're yelling at. If you can calm your nerves and ego and stick to being objective yourself, then you'll find you can listen and hold yourself to the same high standard you hold everyone else to.

[250r4life]

Jason- your lack of consistency on numerous levels amazes me¡K

You say I don¡¦t clearly define my points, but yet when I do, you whine¡K
You like to talk big, and then when called out, do you debate? no, you run¡K
You don¡¦t care about 4 strokes, and then you do¡K and then you don¡¦t¡K

Why do you refuse to debate with me Jason? I don¡¦t take it personally- I love a good debate¡K The way I see it is a good debate is the best way to get the truth out there¡K In fact, I think a debate helps both sides understand their own arguments better and helps them to really develop them¡K In this wonderful country in which we live, that¡¦s how a verdict is reached- both sides debate, and then the jury decides¡K don¡¦t run from the debate¡K

However, as in the case of the court room, one side may win the debate because either a- one attorney is more intelligent than the other or b- the evidence is highly on one sides favor¡K unfortunately for you- you got the short end of the stick in both cases¡K

Its ok¡K I¡¦ll just go ahead and bury you and your argument right here and right now¡K

And per your request, I¡¦ll go ahead and do it in one large post for you¡K

Subjective¡K Yes, subjective¡K That is your problem, and where your error lies¡K You can say that to you, the 250r is the most fun to ride. I wouldn¡¦t argue with you, and in fact, I would entirely agree with you¡K that¡¦s right- the 250r is more fun to ride than my YFZ¡K I¡¦ve never denied that¡K there is nothing like the thrill and rush of a two stroke powerband and just driving it like you stole it¡K these are subjective things that can¡¦t be argued- regardless of if I want to or not ƒº

However, your persistent allegation that they are so much more expensive is not correct.
You have posted that article before, and I haven¡¦t entirely agreed with it then either¡K For the purpose of our discussion, that article and reference is taken out of context. They are comparing a brand new CR125 with a brand new CRF250¡K They are also comparing 2 stock machines¡K We are doing neither¡K
We are comparing a 1989 (at best/newest) 250r with a 2007 YFZ. We are also comparing a modified 250r engine, with a stock YFZ engine, and if we were to compare stock to stock there is no comparison- the YFZ hands the 250r its butt if the 250r engine is stock¡K
There are also several other flaws in using that article in this discussion. Warranties are not taking into consideration, nor are the facts that 250r parts are becoming less and less abundant, and more and more expensive¡K And the 250rs are not getting any younger.

Now before we move on, I need to establish a few things¡K Who knows how much argument I will get out of this¡K Jason, you and I are both duners, so we will use that (dunes- racing comp hill or olds or¡K) for our basis of comparison. Do we both agree that if you leave the engines stock, and say put a pipe and filter and re-jet, the YFZ will walk away from the 250r? It is my stance that a ported 265-275cc R with a pipe, rad valve, carb, lid off and K&N is ROUGHLY equal to a 450cc YFZ with the lid off, pro design K&N, re-jetted, slip on pipe (or baffle removed- the slip on isn¡¦t too much improvement)¡K Like I said- roughly- as no two bikes are the same¡K I would estimate my races at the dunes between my R and my YFZ in the past two seasons is well into a 4 digit number¡K and this is what I have learned¡K if you agree, great, if you don¡¦t, o-well¡K assuming you will agree, or at least go along for the purpose of the comparison¡K

Now obviously each scenario will be slightly different, depending on what has been already done to the R, how recently, etc¡K and what price is paid for the YFZ, etc¡K this is not meant to be 100% accurate, but will cover the basis with a little leniency expected¡K

This comparison could be carried forward starting with a stock 250r, or a modified¡K the result is still the same, the time frame and numbers are just slightly different.

Lets use my buddies R that was sold at the beginning of this season¡K it had a pipe, rad valve, K&N, the engine was completely stock and untouched¡K ran exceptionally well and would smoke all the other non-450 4 strokes¡K (he sold the bike for $3500¡K) however, the stock 250r is being out performed by the yfz, so one can go two ways- mod out the 250r, or go buy a 450¡K

250r
Engine: Spend at least $1k on 265/275pv to get to par
Carb: $200
Suspension: $500 (just get some recreational works shocks)

YFZ¡K
Buy a year end YFZ with a 4.5 year extended warranty for $6200
Between what you sold your R for, and the money that you didn¡¦t have to spend on it, you are out a grand to have the YFZ over the 250r¡K

You buy a pro design K&N, take the baffle out, re-jet, and retard the cam, and you¡¦re out another $150¡K so you¡¦re in the hole $1150¡K

I go to the dunes quite often, and counting days that I get there mid day at half a day, I figure I am probably at the dunes roughly 24 days out of the year.
250R would be 6 gallons of gas a day, have to run at least 100 octance with the aftermarket cylinder and to have the power, and mix in two stroke oil¡K well, lets say we use av gas, that¡¦s $3.50 a gallon, and 144 gallons¡K 144 gallons is 576 ounces of yamalube at 32:1, which is 18 bottles @ $8 a piece¡K that is roughly $650 in fuel for the season¡K
My YFZ would be 3 gallons a day, and can run pump gas¡K that¡¦s 72 gallons, and lets say premium pump gas is $3¡K that is $216 for gas¡K I also change my oil after every trip, it takes 2 quarts @ $3 a piece, at 11 trips, and Im at $66¡K 216+ 66= $282¡K Looks like it costs $368 dollars more on gas/oil to ride an R than a YFZ¡K if we said the YFZ uses 4 gallons s day, you¡¦re still looking at $300 more a season for the R¡K. If that is all the riding you did in the course of a year, you would make up the money you were out for buying the R within 3 seasons¡K This isn¡¦t even taking spark plugs into consideration¡K I didn¡¦t ever foul plus and could go a long time on one plug, but I liked to change them after each day of riding¡K Lets say we change them once a trip- that¡¦s an additional $25 a year that the two stroke costs more than the 4 stroke¡K Oh, but I almost forgot¡K you also have to change the tranny oil in the 250r¡K I would change mine after every trip, but lets say the average guy does it ever 3rd trip¡K well, that¡¦s 4 changes at $5 a bottle, that¡¦s another $20 more¡K

Ok, so I have established that it is more expensive just to fuel and ride the 250r than it is the YFZ¡K now lets move on to maintenance¡K

You have to maintain the filters very well on both, so that is a wash¡K I forgot that the YFZ uses an oil filter, which you can purchase a re-usable one which costs $50¡K My bad¡K It doesn¡¦t cost anything to go and check the specks on the valves¡K If you know how to do it, it¡¦ll take a little time every few months.. No big deal¡K Besides that, there isn¡¦t a whole lot to do¡K I think the article is way too over zealous on his replacement of piston and rings, and you guys know you don¡¦t re-do your top ends like the article suggests anyhow¡K
I have several friends with 450s that have had them for two seasons, and they show no sign of slowing down and have had no failures¡K I don¡¦t think it unreasonable to expect a 3rd season without problems¡K and let it be said, that we ride our bikes hard¡K we¡¦re not there to mess around¡K we have our bikes wrapped out on our trail rides, and do quite a bit of racing at the hills¡K

But lets say for instance there was a failure¡K how much is it going to cost me? Oh wait- I have a 5 year warranty¡K that failure isn¡¦t going to cost me a dime! Sure- it may cost the warranty several thousands of dollars, but it isn¡¦t going to cost me a dime¡K So, what do I do? I buy a year end YFZ for a little over 6k with the extended warranty. After 3 seasons I sell it, and I don¡¦t think it unreasonable to think with being immaculate in my air filter maintenance, constantly changing my oil, and keeping a close eye on my valves, that I will have a catastrophic failure¡K but, worst case there is always that warranty¡K Since I will keep the rims and tires and whatever else is compatible with the newer addition of the YFZ that I buy, I would guess that I could sell it for $4k and the new buyer will be thrilled he still has 2 years of warranty¡K So I am out 2k, which averages out to $700 over the course of the 3 seasons that I used it¡K Ok, so I was paying 700 a year for bike that cost me nearly 400 less a year to ride, and was at the most 3 years old, and was constantly under warranty¡K and was just as fast!

However, the 250r on the other hand¡K lets assume that there are no failures and just maintenance. Well, lets say you do a top end each summer before dune season. You¡¦re going to spend $100 on a piston, another $10 on the wrist pin bearing, another $20 on o-rings, and another $10 on a base gasket¡K oh, and another $30 on a hone¡K ok, well there is $170¡K another $40 a year for reeds¡K so we¡¦re looking at $210 a year, and that is being very conservative and assuming that nothing major happens¡K

So, if you consider those figures, it would only be slightly more expensive to own a YFZ, and you would have a new machine every 3 years¡K So basically, you would be paying $100 dollars a year to have a new machine at the end of 3 years¡K

But hold on¡K youre not going to get away with just doing a top end every year¡K youre going to have to throw a new bottom end in there at least every 3 years, and your tranny isn¡¦t going to last forever¡K trust me- ive got a gear from my 250r that is in about 11 pieces¡K so its actually not going to be any more expensive to own a yfz than it is a 250r¡K

What this also isn¡¦t considering, is that the 250r is 20 years old¡K while getting a new YFZ every 3 years, you shouldn¡¦t have to mess with a lot of the additional maintenance like getting your shocks re-valved or having your rear end go out¡K there is a lot of things on the bike besides the engine, and those things wear out¡K by renewing your bike periodically you can skip out on a lot of stuff¡K when you hold onto that R, its inevitable that you will end up replacing almost everything on that bike¡K those frames don¡¦t hold up forever, and I¡¦ve seen several where once they begin to be welded, they just keep cracking in other places¡K

So, although this comparison is not exactly perfect and there are exceptions¡K you can see that in 20 years I will have put less money into riding and maintaining my bike, and will have a brand new YFZ (or whatever they decide to call it in 20 years), and you will have a 40 year old 250r where parts are extremely difficult to come by, and expensive as crap¡K and who knows if your frame will still have held up and your bike is still rideable¡K


that is reality... sad but true...

if you know how to play your cards right, the yfz should be less expensive in the long run...

thats if you know how to play your cards right... it could end up being a nightmare... i think your profile said you were in real estate devolpment jason- same principle... some people have made fortunes playing with real estate, some have blundered away every penny... all a matter of how you play your cards... and a little bit of luck...

alot of truth to that post, but remember the 450s value will drop dramticallly the first 2-3 years, say you got a 450 for 6200, ride it 2 hours, its now worth 5 Grand, after a season or 2, now your looking at over a 2 grand lose...my 250r, i got it 3 or 4 years ago for 2800 and i might loose a couple hundred, sell for 2600ish, or it could go the other way and i will make money on it, sell for 3K (depends on buyer)

a proven fact tho, THOSE 450s ARE TIME BOMBS....they will blow, and it will cost thousands to fix. In the next 5-10 years you will see alot of junk 450s around with blown motors, while the 250rs will be a little bit more rare, but still screaming on the 20th rebuild :D

both are fun, but i would rather own something that i know will not come back to bit me in the rear, and i love the sound of the pingers :D

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Honda86
alot of truth to that post, but remember the 450s value will drop dramticallly the first 2-3 years, say you got a 450 for 6200, ride it 2 hours, its now worth 5 Grand, after a season or 2, now your looking at over a 2 grand lose...my 250r, i got it 3 or 4 years ago for 2800 and i might loose a couple hundred, sell for 2600ish, or it could go the other way and i will make money on it, sell for 3K (depends on buyer)

a proven fact tho, THOSE 450s ARE TIME BOMBS....they will blow, and it will cost thousands to fix. In the next 5-10 years you will see alot of junk 450s around with blown motors, while the 250rs will be a little bit more rare, but still screaming on the 20th rebuild :D

both are fun, but i would rather own something that i know will not come back to bit me in the rear, and i love the sound of the pingers :D


if you look on traderonline.com, the least expensive 2004 yfz in AZ is for $4400. a lot of them are asking several hundred more than that... you also have to figure those are a- the 1st year models and b- the smaller motor so they shouldnt not hold their value as much as the newer ones... so acutally, i would be looking at an $1800 loss after 3 years...

yes, the initial cost vs the ending sale of the R should be about the same... its the cost while you own it is what could get yu...

i beleive they have worked out the bugs in the yfzs and they are no longer time bombs, but that whole warranty thing doesnt make me sweat too much either way...

i think is the southwest your quads hold their value more..i seen plenty of 04 and 05 yfx got for 3500 range (give or take a hundred or 2) and i also seen alot of just rollers 04s for sale...wonder what happened to the motor?:confused:

the 450s will all blow up, with a pancake piston and the compression as high as they got them, its just a matter of time, they run good but only for a short period of time witch is what all the big companys want, because that equals sales

out here a nice built 250r will bring more money thena piped or cammed 450, and piped and ported 250r brings about the same as a 04 450, give or take a few hundred either way....the 250r is a better investment

[iamjasyn]

Ok, I honestly didn't scrutinize the details of your numbers. I don't have much time to be online today and maybe tomorrow too. For the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, I will say that on one hand you can play the warranty game and see if you wind up a winner. More power to you and good luck with that. I don't assert that 4strokes are more expensive because I personally want them to be, there homie. I came to the conclusion based on that article I posted (that you in your important opinion don’t agree with) and also based on the NUMEROUS posts such as a couple in this very thread I've seen where catastrophic failure and trouble with cashing on the warranty have left people with more problems than I know I'd care to have after ponying up for a new bike.

For the first part of your post, it just sounds like sand box pissing. Call my lack of desire to respond to it running from a debate, but ironically I think a lot of what you've said previous can't really be debated. It just sounds like a worthless rant. Ok, I'm being nice because honestly I could come up with more to say about it. It just doesn't amounts to anything, just like it didn't when you said it to me.

Anyway, I'll play the risks on the side of 2strokes if for no other reason than the principle matter honestly of waving my finger at the marketing of "4 strokkkkes" and at people who line up to donate to the newest technology that just replaced a platform that outperfoms 4strokes in power and don't understand that because they probably aren't really inclined to understand much of anything that requires more of a brain than to turn on the TV, laugh at brainless programming and absorb commercials. Yes, it sounds crude, but I wave my finger at it.

4strokes in small motor applications are best at reliable, low emissions power. They have a broad predictable torque curve and are great for many general use applications. 2strokes suck gas and to be cliche, flat haul *** – with a more simple, lighter weight, less expensive design. That's the way the natural products landscape looked before government intervention and consequently before 4strokes were over amped to make the buying public want them and unseat 2strokes on the showroom floor. I don't say they aren't powerful. I don't say they aren't fun. I do say on average, from looking around and speaking with owners of repair shops who charge their customers to fix them that it sounds to me like many of the consumers I just described are going to unknowingly pick up the bill for having shoe horned steroided 450's into our simple, light, easy to work on 250R's. So, to say that I have nothing good to say about 450’s is to say that I don’t see the big picture. I just don’t care enough about them to repeat myself about what they’re good for. This stuff is not a matter of opinion and it amazes me that we don’t all agree on it and if you see any other argument that I’ve made about the whole entire situation, I certainly don’t remember what it was because these things sum up most of my entire stance on the issue.

I had a VERY proud guy on here try to tell me that a twin 4stroke runs on the same power output principle as a 2stroke. No, you say… impossible. How can anyone make that mistake? Well it’s true. The guy HONESTLY believed that 4strokes have more power potential and THAT is why 2strokes are an outdated, dying breed. Zombie... ***cing zombie man. Check the valves weekly, change your oil regularly. Do whatever you have to do to keep that thing from blowing the crank out the front of both cases. If he doesn't have that happen to him, then hopefully all he'll have to do is replace the (numerous) parts in the top periodically, but he will never be able to turn a simple physics lesson upside down to fit his romantic notion about ***cing 4strokes... laughable if not unfortunate… And by the way 250's do not need a crank every 3 years. That is so unlikely, that given your long best case scenario with yfz's you shouldn't have even said it. I don’t think you’re a moron, but you're not the model debater you think you are; at least not in this thread. I don't really care to point my finger at you for the cracks in your arguments either though. Especially with how long they are... I just don't have that kind of time for it. I hope that you have cooled off enough to see my point. It's not hard to get honestly and though I have my personal preference, a lot of what I say about the issue is not a matter of opinion and are issues or items that I can site.

Here's a quote from another article from Honda that isn't pointed at the atv buying consumer that spells out the reason 4strokes are here (and it’s not power potential guys). Man, you'd think by saying that 4strokes are here as an epa workaround that I just insulted someone's intelligence. What an ironic joke that is. Good luck with your gamble. My money's on the engine with a 2piece cylinder and head and making more power doing it. If after reading all that people aren’t at least raising questions, then to each his own.

Motorcycles
To achieve the cleaner emissions and higher fuel economy targets it announced for motorcycles in 1999, Honda began as early as 1997 to take measures to discontinue the use of 2-stroke engines by the end of fiscal 2002. These simply structured 2-stroke engines had been adopted mainly in small motorcycles because of their superior output. Our goal was to replace them with more environment-friendly 4-stroke engine technology.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn


Anyway, I'll play the risks on the side of 2strokes if for no other reason than the principle matter honestly of waving my finger at the marketing of "4 strokkkkes" and at people who line up to donate to the newest technology that just replaced a platform that outperfoms 4strokes in power and don't understand that because they probably aren't really inclined to understand much of anything that requires more of a brain than to turn on the TV, laugh at brainless programming and absorb commercials. Yes, it sounds crude, but I wave my finger at it..


you may not agree, but i dont think you and i are all that different... i agree that there are A LOT of people, especially the younger riders, who are completely clueless and who are told that the 450s are the best and thats what they go off of... i dont know how many times ive had some high school kid on this site trying to tell me his 450 would walk all over my 250r and that the 250r is slow and out dated design and everything else...

a perfect example of everybody just listening to marketing, wanting the "next best thing" and having no idea why they want it, is the FI in the raptor 700 and the LTR... everybody uses FI as a huge selling point, but personally that would be a whole reason for me not to buy the bike and i really hope the yfz doesnt go to FI... sadly it probably will...

youre right... marketing... FI doesnt give any more power, the fuel economy doesnt seem to be any better, and instead of buying a couple jets they are spending hundreds of dollars on fuel controllers... and lets wait till they have to be fixed.... and the people love them for it...

i completely agree...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn

4strokes in small motor applications are best at reliable, low emissions power. They have a broad predictable torque curve and are great for many general use applications. 2strokes suck gas and to be cliche, flat haul *** – with a more simple, lighter weight, less expensive design. That's the way the natural products landscape looked before government intervention and consequently before 4strokes were over amped to make the buying public want them and unseat 2strokes on the showroom floor. I don't say they aren't powerful. I don't say they aren't fun. I do say on average, from looking around and speaking with owners of repair shops who charge their customers to fix them that it sounds to me like many of the consumers I just described are going to unknowingly pick up the bill for having shoe horned steroided 450's into our simple, light, easy to work on 250R's. So, to say that I have nothing good to say about 450’s is to say that I don’t see the big picture. I just don’t care enough about them to repeat myself about what they’re good for. This stuff is not a matter of opinion and it amazes me that we don’t all agree on it and if you see any other argument that I’ve made about the whole entire situation, I certainly don’t remember what it was because these things sum up most of my entire stance on the issue..

youre right... for those guys that dont do their own work and arent on the ball with quads, it will cost them a lot more with the 450s... especially if they dont have warranties...

there are a lot of people with more money than sense, and unfortunately most of them are riding 450s...

i see a lot of what you see in a lot of 450 riders, and can see why you are put off by them...

they dont respect the R, they think the 450 is God's gift to the quad world, they think they can ride...

you can see my quad in my sig... pretty plain jane 450... and i have smoked so many bikes with so much more into them... why- cuz they just go and buy what theyre told, and half the time theyre sold on whatever the shop carries, and the fact they still just cant ride the bike..

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn


I had a VERY proud guy on here try to tell me that a twin 4stroke runs on the same power output principle as a 2stroke. No, you say… impossible. How can anyone make that mistake? Well it’s true. The guy HONESTLY believed that 4strokes have more power potential and THAT is why 2strokes are an outdated, dying breed. Zombie... ***cing zombie man. .

i remember- i was in that debate, only i was on "your side" on that one...

my motto is "the world is full of stupid people..."

thats just stupidity and has nothing to do with what you ride...
there is a guy on here yesterday with a pretty basic R, not even a big bore, talking how he was right with drag YFZs... im not arguing with you or anything, but unfortunately stupidity runs rampant in the world... there is no avoiding it...

[3leggeddog]

what about a atc 500r,and a trx 250r???who would win that race???i'm just curious,thats all,lol.

[Kirt13]

You guys are like a bunch of hens in a chicken coupe.....just walking around and clucking at each other.

THIS THREAD IS BEAT TO HECK!!!

[250r4life]

c'mon now fellas... jason and i were just beginning to understand eachother, and yall come in sidebusting...