GNCC Protest [Archive] - ATV Riders Forum

cdrookie

03-07-2007, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by skull2002
who really gives a sh1t !!!!!!!!!

alot of people. i thought the proproduction rule meant stock frames... the rule book can be interpreted as "vague", but now apparently the factory can make changes at will in the name of prototype testing. why not just go back to the aftermarket frames and bigbore 250R's? it's the same thing, those with the most money have the advantage. i personally think it's BS, but yamaha saw an opportunity and took advantage of it, good for them:cool:

Pappy

03-07-2007, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by cdrookie
i personally think it's BS, but yamaha saw an opportunity and took advantage of it, good for them:cool:

from what i understand, yamaha had nothing to do with it.

cdrookie

03-07-2007, 09:28 PM

oh, good for BB then:cool:

54warrior

03-08-2007, 05:30 AM

As long as it's within the rules, there shouldn't be any discussion about it. The other competitors are just sorry they didn't find the loophole first!!!

jb500ex

03-08-2007, 09:45 AM

there is alot more too it then just a loophole

c450Razy

03-08-2007, 09:49 AM

my opinion is that since it`s a "production" class that they should not be moding the frame in any way.

Just my 2cents.

krt400ex

03-08-2007, 12:10 PM

seems to me like he used the stock frae and then modded it? if so, then there is no broken rule because the rule is to use a production frame. he did...but he modified it a little...nevertheless it is still the production frame

mach1stang

03-08-2007, 12:11 PM

i agree it is poduction and if he did then most likly any body else can

54warrior

03-08-2007, 12:19 PM

I think this is a perfect example of a competitor doing whatever it takes to win. Based on the rules, he did not cheat. He used the rules to his advantage and that is what separates the men from the boys. Like I stated earlier, whoever it was that was complaining about it are just jealous they didn't take the time to read and interporate them like he did.

I wonder how many others will show up next race with frame mods?

Was his brother's like this too?

Interesting, I love stories like this.

400exrider707

03-08-2007, 12:46 PM

I know he didn't break any rules per say, but how can you call that a production frame? To be production dont like 500 units or something need to be sold per year? Wasn't this the same thing with Rath selling the mini quads that were decked out?

mach1stang

03-08-2007, 12:49 PM

i say it mostly production if there is a touch changed it is still considered a production frame it is not aftermarket it is not like he had the whole re done in titanium he did a change that every body can do them selves

54warrior

03-08-2007, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by 400exrider707
I know he didn't break any rules per say, but how can you call that a production frame?

Well it is the same frame that was produced from the factory. Again, no rules prevented him from doing whatever he did to it, so it's just tough luck for the rest of the competitors, they were caught with their pants down.

I agree with you 100% that it should be completely unmodified frames. That apparently is not what the rules are though. I don't even know what mods he made, but I'm sure that the frame wasn't completely hacked, sounds like he might have relocated the a-arm mounts??

You can't blame a guy for using every rule to his advantage.

smr

03-08-2007, 01:19 PM

Bill didn't catch anybody with there pants down. They all knew he narrowed up the frame to run longer a-arms. It wasn't a secret and anybody that buys parts from Bill could have seen the quad setting in his shop. It was no secret and Bill didn't try to hide anything

It's over and done.

The Ballances are great people and I don't think any of them would cheat anybody out of anything.

trxwannbe

03-08-2007, 01:58 PM

i don't think its right i know that around here the mx rules state that if its not a gusset and you can't bolt it on then you can't use it

A A R O N

03-08-2007, 03:02 PM

Here's the thing about this...

If he did it and it is legal, then good for him....why would somebody complain? This only means that anybody racing with him can do the exact same thing, leaving nobody at a disadvantage.

Also, I don't see how the argument is relevant anyway. He was winning before he had a special frame and he's winning now.

He won the first round because of hard work, not because the front of his frame has a few different dimensions.

I think the racers complaining about it would benefit from using their time taken to protest and go out and practice instead. They should try to become better themselves, not try to make somebody else slow down.

mach1stang

03-08-2007, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by A A R O N
Here's the thing about this...

If he did it and it is legal, then good for him....why would somebody complain? This only means that anybody racing with him can do the exact same thing, leaving nobody at a disadvantage.

Also, I don't see how the argument is relevant anyway. He was winning before he had a special frame and he's winning now.

He won the first round because of hard work, not because the front of his frame has a few different dimensions.

I think the racers complaining about it would benefit from using their time taken to protest and go out and practice instead. They should try to become better themselves, not try to make somebody else slow down.

your right like i have been saying every body could do this mod it is not like it is a prototype chassis that no body has it is a stock frame with on mod

Scro

03-08-2007, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by A A R O N

Also, I don't see how the argument is relevant anyway. He was winning before he had a special frame and he's winning now.

He won the first round because of hard work, not because the front of his frame has a few different dimensions.

My thoughts exactly. If I were him, I would go back to the stock frame, just to rub it in everybody's face:p

A A R O N

03-08-2007, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Scro
My thoughts exactly. If I were him, I would go back to the stock frame, just to rub it in everybody's face:p

Agreed. I would have a chuckle if that happened....It would certainly make a few people think a little harder before they spoke.

K-Dub

03-09-2007, 03:06 AM

Ok I have no problem with this, BB was within the rules, but the rules are messed up. I remember back in the early 90s in the AMA SX series, the AMA DQed one of the factory riders for altering a frame where the swing arm and kinkage mounts to the frame. The rule as per the racing show was that the frame could not be altered in any way. Now Im under the understanding that Mcgrath rode a 93 CR frame up intill Honda came out with the aluminum preimeter frame. Now I think that the closer to stock we have to keep these quads the bigger the racing scene will get. And it seems everybody wants quad racing more mainstream.
Think about it a second, a person wants to race MX or GNCC. He can buy a MX bike for around $6000 roll it off the showroom and race it as is and not be at a big disadvantage. Granted you can pipe it and change cams for more HP and get the shock/forks revalved for an additional $2000.

Now lets compare that to a quad. $7000 for the quad, $1000 or more for a-arms, $1000 or more for front shocks, $800 + for a swing arm, $800+ for a rear shock, and $400 for a steering stem. I know theres more and $500 for a pipe and $200 for a cam for basic engine mods. Lets add it up, $11700 for what I listed on the quad I know there is more but just an off the top of my head list. Thats $3700+ to race a quad over a bike. To me Suzuki is on the right track as far as MX is concerned, they need to make an XC version of the LTR also. Now if the production rule went to say no frame altering and you must run stock swing arm, a-arms, and shocks it makes it more affordable (the LTR doesnt cost much more than a 450R). I realize this would kill the aftermarket companys that kept this great sport of ours alive while the factorys went away.
sorry so long this is been a sore subject with me from racing both a CR250 and a 250R in the early 90s.

400exrider707

03-09-2007, 06:13 AM

You guys say anyone can do this, but how many of you can narrow up your stock frame without making a hack job out of it? Thats not something that you could just throw together over the weekend, it needs to be well thought out, most likely drafted on a computer and analyzed first, then custom arms would need to be made, as well as custom shocks. Its basically a narrow frame like the old laegers. Good for him though, not that he really needed to do this, the guy could probably win on a 250ex.

bradley300

03-09-2007, 06:24 AM

the problem was that no one else in the pro class knew about the rule, RP didn high light the rule in red like they did all the other new rules and didnt tell anyone about it. they told the factories, but what does that mean? how many factory riders are on the quad side? bill ballance, brian baker, yokely? baker wasnt even a rider when the rule was changed, so potentially 2 people knew about it before the start of the season. 1 of which (yokely) couldnt do anything about since he didnt get his quads until 2 weeks ago.

knowing that, most people are upset that there is obviously some favortisim with bill that may or may not be founded. the point is, no one knew about the rule except bill before the start of the season

this is also not a yamaha modded frame, he had an aftermarket frame builder do it.

Scro

03-09-2007, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by bradley300
the problem was that no one else in the pro class knew about the rule, RP didn high light the rule in red like they did all the other new rules and didnt tell anyone about it. they told the factories, but what does that mean? how many factory riders are on the quad side? bill ballance, brian baker, yokely? baker wasnt even a rider when the rule was changed, so potentially 2 people knew about it before the start of the season. 1 of which (yokely) couldnt do anything about since he didnt get his quads until 2 weeks ago.

knowing that, most people are upset that there is obviously some favortisim with bill that may or may not be founded. the point is, no one knew about the rule except bill before the start of the season

this is also not a yamaha modded frame, he had an aftermarket frame builder do it.

But it's not like the administrators of the GNCC came up to the factory riders and said, "Here is a new rule, but don't tell anyone". I'm sure each and every rider had the opportunity to review the new rules for the 2007 season.

GE4x4

03-09-2007, 06:57 AM

This is right from the GNCC web site. It allmost sounds like a Ballance/Yamaha favortism comercial.

The ATV set is all pumped up, as the chase for Bill Ballance continues.

There was actually some controversy that flared up after Bill romped home the winner on Sunday, as one of his competitors questioned the legality of the changes Bill made to the front end of his quad and felt they violated the production rule we utilize in the XC1 pro class.

So a protest was filed with the AMA, but the protest was eventually turned down, and Ballance’s win will stand.

The part at issue is a modification done to the frame on Bill’s YFZ450, which alters the pivot points of the A-Arms.

Look at the production rule in the GNCC rulebook for 2007 and you’ll see the new rule in there, which makes this change legal.

This rule was approved several months ago by both the AMA and all of the ATV manufacturers, including Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Polaris and Suzuki.

Why did we do it? If you recall from a few years back, the production rule is intended to encourage the ATV manufacturers to support ATV racing. Before we had the rule, riders were racing old 250Rs, and factory support was non-existent.

Once we placed the production rule on the pro class, everyone switched to the production machines and factory support showed up almost immediately, as well as contingency, dealer support, and just a ton of other great things for the racers.

This is still the goal. Factory help is there, but more is always better. In this case, Yamaha wanted to use the GNCCs as a test bed for future improvements to the YFZ line, and we’re honored they recognize GNCC racing as a place to do this.

A few years ago we were begging companies to care about the races, and now they’re working with us to make better machines for our racers. That’s a big improvement.

There are some that will say the new rule doesn’t help out Joe Average Racer. But that’s never been the intent of the production rule. It’s not supposed to neutralize factory support, it’s supposed to encourage it, and we think this proves that it works. And for Joe Average Racer, I have heard from a good source that the prototype of Ballance’s new machine was not built by Yamaha, but by a reputable performance company that helps many riders. So this stuff isn’t under lock and key.

Also, let’s not forget Bill Ballance has won on a ridiculous array of equipment over the last decade. A rule or machine change isn’t what’s going to win him this year’s title.

bwamos

03-09-2007, 06:58 AM

Reading the GNCC Rules it nowhere says you can do that though.

THe production rules specifically state you can do 2 things to the frame.

1) Reinforce the frame (gusset)
2) Frame modifications to permit longer REAR-wheel travel.

If you go with the "But the rules don't specifically state you can't do it".. then by default you could make 2 cuts to the frame on each side of the model/serial number plate.. remove the unnecessary steel, and replace that with a full custom Leagers chromoly pro-trax frame, no? I mean.. you still have about 1% of the original frame, no? Nothing in the rules specifically state you can not do that.

Production rules require the frame to be stock, with the permitted modifications (gusset & rear end). Outside if that if they make it a gray area, then you get 1 thing. Politics and favoritism. It's unavoidable w/o set in stone rules.

You do the exact same mod to your quad and win.. I bet you'd get disqualified.

GE4x4

03-09-2007, 07:12 AM

If you just open the rulebook section and looks here

MACHINE ELIGIBILITY AND CLASSIFICATION:

1. Production Rule (ATV): OEM motor and matching frame combination model required. Engine modifications, frame reinforcements and frame modifications to permit longer rear-wheel travel are permitted.

You see nothing that would suggest what Ballance did was leagel., But would show he broke the rules. But when you drop down to the pro rules, this is what is said.

MACHINE ELIGIBILITY AND CLASSIFICATION:

1. XC1 Pro (Bikes): (0-Opencc).
2. XC2 Lites (Bikes): (0-125cc 2-Strokes; 0- 250cc 4-Strokes).
3. XC1 & XC2 (ATV): (0-525cc). Fuel tanks are limited to a 4-gallon maximum capacity. OEM motor and matching frame combination model required. Engine modifications, frame reinforcements, and f rame modifications creating longer rear-wheel travel or altering front A-arm and shock pivot point locations, are permitted.

So you need to goo allmost all the way to the bottom of the rulebook page to see it. And like others have said, whenever a new rule is made, it's put in red so it sticks out. Well they didn't do that either.

54warrior

03-09-2007, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by bradley300
the problem was that no one else in the pro class knew about the rule,

(yokely) couldnt do anything about since he didnt get his quads until 2 weeks ago.

this is also not a yamaha modded frame, he had an aftermarket frame builder do it.

Look, I don't know all the details, nor do I pretend to, keep in mind that this is only my opinion:

I'm sure that the rules weren't published the day before the season started. ALL riders, be it pro or amateur had plenty of time in advance to read the rules and act accordingly.

It's not the AMA's or Bill Ballance's fault that William Yokley didn't get his quads till 2 weeks ago.

It doesn't matter who modded the frame, whether it was Yamaha, Lonestar, or you or I. It was a legal modification according to the rulebook, which you or I could have read prior to the start of the season.

Good 'ol country boys like Bill are great for the sport. He represents ATVing well. Same can be said for Yokley, and the vast majority of the GNCC guys.

smr

03-09-2007, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by bradley300
the problem was that no one else in the pro class knew about the rule, RP didn high light the rule in red like they did all the other new rules and didnt tell anyone about it. they told the factories, but what does that mean? how many factory riders are on the quad side? bill ballance, brian baker, yokely? baker wasnt even a rider when the rule was changed, so potentially 2 people knew about it before the start of the season. 1 of which (yokely) couldnt do anything about since he didnt get his quads until 2 weeks ago.

knowing that, most people are upset that there is obviously some favortisim with bill that may or may not be founded. the point is, no one knew about the rule except bill before the start of the season

this is also not a yamaha modded frame, he had an aftermarket frame builder do it.

Brad I have to desagree with you there. Bill has had that front end on his quad for awhile. Anybody that has been by his shop most likely saw it. It was also at the dealer show in Indiana.

Bill even talked to poeple about the front end. He never tried to hide it.

jb500ex

03-09-2007, 05:23 PM

dober250R

03-09-2007, 06:28 PM

I'm not huge into GNCC racing, but I do find it odd that Ballance has won so much in his career..... He is DEFINITELY doing something that nobody else is doing. And it sounds like this new rule was created for him, because of how much the person on the GNCC website is supporting him...... Just a few of my thoughts.

krt400ex

03-09-2007, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Scro
My thoughts exactly. If I were him, I would go back to the stock frame, just to rub it in everybody's face:p

excellent point

Scro

03-11-2007, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by dober250R
He is DEFINITELY doing something that nobody else is doing.

All he is doing different is being the badass that he is. Stock or modified frame, he is the man.

bradley300

03-12-2007, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by smr
Brad I have to desagree with you there. Bill has had that front end on his quad for awhile. Anybody that has been by his shop most likely saw it. It was also at the dealer show in Indiana.

Bill even talked to poeple about the front end. He never tried to hide it.

the point tho is the sneakiness involved in changing the rule. it was never discussed publicly, and never put in bold or highlighted in red like any other rule would be.i honestly remeber reading the rule quite a while ago before any of this happened, but they are the pro clas rules and didnt mean anything to me so i didnt think it would be an issue worth posting. i really dont care. i like billl and yamaha, i think if RP says its legal, there is nothing left to say about it. i just hope bills frame carries over to a showroom yfz instead of remaining a quasi production race quad.

bradley300

03-12-2007, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by bwamos
Reading the GNCC Rules it nowhere says you can do that though.

THe production rules specifically state you can do 2 things to the frame.

1) Reinforce the frame (gusset)
2) Frame modifications to permit longer REAR-wheel travel.

If you go with the "But the rules don't specifically state you can't do it".. then by default you could make 2 cuts to the frame on each side of the model/serial number plate.. remove the unnecessary steel, and replace that with a full custom Leagers chromoly pro-trax frame, no? I mean.. you still have about 1% of the original frame, no? Nothing in the rules specifically state you can not do that.

Production rules require the frame to be stock, with the permitted modifications (gusset & rear end). Outside if that if they make it a gray area, then you get 1 thing. Politics and favoritism. It's unavoidable w/o set in stone rules.

You do the exact same mod to your quad and win.. I bet you'd get disqualified.

you are reding from the ametuer rules, as ametuers, we cant do what bill did. there are seperate production rules for the pro classes

smr

03-12-2007, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by jb500ex
re-read what you wrote. so now all pro's must go too bill's shop in the offseason to get new rules

I guess It could have come across that what but that's not what I meant.

I was just saying that Bill never tried to hide anything....I also know that some of the pros had been out there lately and knew about the frame.

I was taken it that people thought Bill was trying to hide it and that's not the way he is.

mxracer

03-12-2007, 11:37 AM

Does someone have the picture of this bike I remember this picture from Indy show but can't find it

Thanks

Pappy

03-12-2007, 11:43 AM

Ballances frame is not gaining him any advantage as far as I can see. Borich has had bad starts, run through the pack and basically forced Ballance to run hard KNOWING Chris has hunted him down! Riding talent is all that is keeping ballance out front, the way it should be!

bwamos

03-12-2007, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by bradley300
you are reding from the ametuer rules, as ametuers, we cant do what bill did. there are seperate production rules for the pro classes

Edit: Found the Pro rules.

I appreciate the correction! :D

GNCC Pro Production Rule:
3. XC1 & XC2 (ATV): (0-525cc). Fuel tanks are limited to a 4-gallon maximum capacity. OEM motor and matching frame combination model required. Engine modifications, frame reinforcements, and f rame modifications creating longer rear-wheel travel or altering front A-arm and shock pivot point locations, are permitted.

mach1stang

03-12-2007, 12:24 PM

i say out the 100% of the frame he could have modded he only did 5-10% basically now if it was done to more than half the frame yeah maybe then he has an advantage over every body but there is no loss in material and no weight loss so it is still stock it is just tweaked you could hit a tree and tweak somthing and shave time but it is still stock

GE4x4

03-12-2007, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
Ballances frame is not gaining him any advantage as far as I can see. Borich has had bad starts, run through the pack and basically forced Ballance to run hard KNOWING Chris has hunted him down! Riding talent is all that is keeping ballance out front, the way it should be!

If it has no advantage, then the question would be, why was it done? Why cause contraversy(sp) over it if it has no advantage? Ballance is the best racer right now, but I think it's stupid for him to continue to race this quad that is going to cause uproar. If he does win his 8th, will this tarnish it?

54warrior

03-12-2007, 06:49 PM

Tarnish it? I think not. He's following the damn rules people. There's nothing stopping the rest of the field from modifying their quads just like he did. Not that it would matter, he'd stomp them regardless. You can't argue the consistency that Bill displays year after year. It's not Bill's fault that he is pushing himself and his quad to it's limits.

Let me ask you this. If you had the resources and you knew that changing the a-arm geometry would improve your quads performance AND it was a completely legal modification, wouldn't you change it too? It's a pretty clear answer that every "true" racer would make. OF COURSE you would modify it, no questions asked.

Tell me this, if Bill wasn't winning, would we even be talking about it?? Doubtful.

If you want to argue the frame, you might as well argue about "Brand X" pipe making 1 HP than "Brand Y".

GE4x4

03-12-2007, 07:08 PM

Your missing the point. To many, the rule looks added for the purpose for Ballance and Yamaha. It looks like they were the only ones that knew about it and no one else. That rule wasn't there last year, so I'm sure many didn't even see if it was added. And like many have said before, when NEW rules are added, they are put in RED so no one will miss it. So if you glace threw the rules and see no red, you would just asume nothing was added. So why was this not made known to all??

mach1stang

03-12-2007, 07:26 PM

yeah i say it may have been a shock at first when nobody knew abou tit but now that everybody has seen it i think we will see more people with this mod

54warrior

03-12-2007, 07:30 PM

Accident's do happen you know, maybe the editor missed the new rule and it wasn't made Red/Bold by mistake??

Regardless if there was some "foul play", the rule WAS still stated in the rulebook.

It seems odd to me that any racer would not read the rules from start to finish EACH year, regardless of how boring they might be. Simply skimming through, looking for BOLD RED TEXT is no way to run your race team or prepare for the season. There is always room for interperatation. EVERY rider should have a complete understanding of the rules and what they state. You can forget alot in a years time. Had the other riders been prepared by reading the rules instead of glancing through it, they would have been aware. Ignorance is bliss.

Yes, the whole situation was mishandled by the AMA. If they knew that there was a printing error, an announcement should have been made to make all riders aware.

Pappy

03-12-2007, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by GE4x4
If it has no advantage, then the question would be, why was it done? Why cause contraversy(sp) over it if it has no advantage? Ballance is the best racer right now, but I think it's stupid for him to continue to race this quad that is going to cause uproar. If he does win his 8th, will this tarnish it?

I will try and answer based on what I know which is very little:p

If it was within the rulebook (no matter who knew it or not) and a rider thought it would give him an advantage, then why not? Causing controversy I am sure was the last thing on anyones mind. The racing world lives in the grey area, if you follow nascar you will quickly see this, and atv racing at the pro level is really no different.

As far as protests go at the pro level they are done to keep folks in check wether the person protesting KNOWS the protest will not bare anything new! Borich may have known that Ballance was fully inside the rule, but to show their dismay with the sanctioning body they filed a protest. If chris wins and ballance protests him and claims his honda is not legal then there could always be that one chance an issue is found and points stripped, and when the racing is this close I wouldnt be surprised to see this SOON! Hell, I heard rumors that a protest was going to be filed at the end of the 90 MOD race for christs sake:p

cdrookie

03-12-2007, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by mach1stang
i say out the 100% of the frame he could have modded he only did 5-10% basically now if it was done to more than half the frame yeah maybe then he has an advantage over every body but there is no loss in material and no weight loss so it is still stock it is just tweaked you could hit a tree and tweak somthing and shave time but it is still stock

5-10%:confused: thats probably the single biggest area to modify? "it's just tweaked"... yeah by a torch and welder. so any frame that weights the same as stock should be considered a stock frame? how would you save time by hitting a tree and "tweaking" something?