honda-nothing but 4 strokes?

[Ace250]

is it true that honda will stop making two-strokes at all in 2008,why

[400exrider989]

i believe its becaue 4-strokes are better for racing because they are less of a work out , less pollution.

lol thats all got
i guess you ca justsay 2-strokes are going up n smoke now :ermm: ;)
dont worry another company (probably 1 of the big 4)
well come up with a new 2-stroke later on... i hope

sucks to see em' go

Mike

the "intelligent" u.s. government is outlawing some 2-strokes...and the law takes effect then...

[trxwannbe]

yeah as of 2008 2-stroke atvs are being nixed for good but i dunno about 2-stroke bikes i think it applies to them to

[Tater049]

wow i didnt know this, but i guess im happy and sad at the same time. The 250r is a piece of atv history, but then again i never really liked two strokes, so its ok i guess.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by dlerch
the "intelligent" u.s. government is outlawing some 2-strokes...and the law takes effect then...

Laws have nothing to do with it. 2 stroke dirt bikes are "closed course competition use only" bikes, and therefore are not affected by the laws. (All the other manufacturer's are still making them after all. Quads are considered "offroad", and they are affected, that is why there is no more Banshee and Blaster.) Why is Honda getting rid of all there 2 strokes? Probably the biggest reason is Honda 2 stroke sales are WAY down. The last few years, the motors have not quite been on par with the other manufacturer's, and Honda has not put any R&D money into them. Looks like Honda figured that instead of wasting money producing them, might as well get rid of them. With the introduction of the CRF150, they have all the classes covered. (85, 125, 250)

Doug

[CRich[814]]

yeah it sucks. ktm just redid all there 2 strokes this year and they're sick. there 125 is bored to a 144 and is still legal and i guess its a amazing bike. i hope some guys still chose to ride the smokers.

[Ace250]

yea,its pretty much always about money,im not an expert on 2-strokes but do know they are high-matinence,for the average person possibly to much headache to rebuild it all the time,so i figure it has to do with sales

[Tommy 17]

its simple the 2 strokes can't keep up...


thats why last year in the outdoor nationals for bikes 40 of 40 bikes on the line were 4 strokes!

[Ace250]

arent 2-strokes supposed to be faster?

[m.h.s.c.#527]

they rev faster and typically they r but with how good 4 strokes are becoming they wont for long

[400exrider989]

here in canada they still make the banshee and the blaster
they even have a banshee SE, i went and looked at one, its really nice it was orange, red, yellow and black, with back rims.

just what i saw

Mike

[m.h.s.c.#527]

they are selling whats made but not making them n e more

[Which 450?]

its only in the us, you can still get them outta canada and such. look on their canada website, they still list 2 stroke for '08

[400EXtreme]

LONG LIVE THE 2 STROKES!

[300exQuadracer]

my take on it is that honda and all the other manufactuers are putting all there r&d into the "new" 4-stroke craze and making them better with a little less maintainance, everybody "wants" the new thumpers cause in theory they are "cheaper to maintain and reliable" when evinrude has a new outboard 2 stoke engine that is now more environmental friendly than 4 strokes, because they put r&d time into it cause thats what a lot of boaters know, its all about supply and demand, whats wanted and they are gonna supply what sells

[Tommy 17]

honda had a clean burning 2 stroke in the late 90s designed... they never put it into production thou because noone wants them... 4 strokes are the future...

[Xater]

4 strokes will never be able to produce the power to weight ratio of a 2 stroke...

[m.h.s.c.#527]

agreed u all have great points and im sorry i was unaware that they where made outside the u.s.

[Tri-valleyracin]

Originally posted by Xater
4 strokes will never be able to produce the power to weight ratio of a 2 stroke...

right

i have a 86 quadracer lt250r and its dry is 295lbs and with stock 30 hp thats pritty good for a bike made in the late 80s. mine has motor mods so it has around 40-45 hp. The 87-92 lt250rs have enven more power some were around 45 stock but they are around 325 lbs. my motor is only 50 lbs.

[byrdman37876]

well i think i will buy an up to date yama 250 dirt bike and take the motor and build a hybrid quad with it ( any 2 smoke for that matter ). should be able to get a lot of parts for it since my buddy bought one new this year and it rocks. i miss the days of hearing the " ring ding ding '

[deathman53]

I like the 2 strokes, the people that say they are alot of maintence, must not know how to do their top end, its so easy, so every year you rebuild the top end, replace reeds, about $200, compare that to the cost of adjusting the valves on a 450r and it seams almost constant changing of the oil. The 4 strokes aren't all that. They definetly are easier to ride and have more linear power, thats the advantage they have. A good rider on a well tuned 2 stroke can win, its just easier to do so on a 4 stroke. For a mechanicly inclined person, the 2 stroke will cost less to maintain.

[Crazy lil punk]

Originally posted by deathman53
I like the 2 strokes, the people that say they are alot of maintence, must not know how to do their top end, its so easy, so every year you rebuild the top end, replace reeds, about $200, compare that to the cost of adjusting the valves on a 450r and it seams almost constant changing of the oil. The 4 strokes aren't all that. They definetly are easier to ride and have more linear power, thats the advantage they have. A good rider on a well tuned 2 stroke can win, its just easier to do so on a 4 stroke. For a mechanicly inclined person, the 2 stroke will cost less to maintain.

very well said. My pop raced drag boats.(points champion for several years) and as we speak we are rebuilding my 87R, and we have the bike apart, and the only thing that CANT be done in the garage is the cylinder honing. Id like to see some one rebuild a 4-stroke in their garage, It can probally be done, but probally much more expensive and time consuming.

There doing it because no one buys 2 strokes anymore. If anyone bought a 2 stroke bike to race, sell it. And good luck selling it. Two strokes are dead.

[400exrider989]

why doesnt a manufacture make a 3-stroke :blah: :confused: :ermm: ;)
torquey+high revving=perfect

lmao

[Ace250]

well my dad had a yamaha yz 125,he had to rebuild it every other month if not every,he took good care of it but we rode em alot

[deathman53]

one thing I never understood is why some 2 strokes(mostly mx bikes) only have 1 ring, when others have 2 rings. I redo the top end on my 250r about every year, I have heard that single ring top ends, you have to rebuilt it often, not hard, but can be annoying.

[400exrider989]

does the banshee have 2 rings?

[CRich[814]]

Originally posted by deathman53
one thing I never understood is why some 2 strokes(mostly mx bikes) only have 1 ring, when others have 2 rings. I redo the top end on my 250r about every year, I have heard that single ring top ends, you have to rebuilt it often, not hard, but can be annoying.

i dont know about R's but for alot of mx bikes, wiseco makes a race and standard piston. the race has one ring and rev's higher and the standard has two rings. the standard obviously lasts longer and i guess you can not tell a difference between the two.


Originally posted by 400exrider989
does the banshee have 2 rings?

you are all about those damn banshee's tonight. go buy one and take it apart.

2 strokes are still where its at...ill take a 250r over a yfz and ill take a Cr500 over any 450 bike

[CRich[814]]

Originally posted by Honda86
2 strokes are still where its at...ill take a 250r over a yfz and ill take a Cr500 over any 450 bike

id take a brand new 1988 250R over any other wheeler ever made.

[400eXr1d3rZ]

Originally posted by dlerch
the "intelligent" u.s. government is outlawing some 2-strokes...and the law takes effect then...

They should outlaw cars and trucks too, you know...pollution.

[atvRiDa400ex]

Originally posted by trxwannbe
yeah as of 2008 2-stroke atvs are being nixed for good but i dunno about 2-stroke bikes i think it applies to them to

well...it sure as hell better apply for the bikes also!!

[CRich[814]]

it doesnt. most are done with r&d so like 2007-2008-2009 bikes are going to be the same. like the 2005-2007cr125 are the same because of no changes. i dont think they changed it much before that either. ktm is the only one with HUGE changes for their smokers.

[mephyst]

Honda has the most money by far out of all of the other manufacturers and is the leader in the new 4stroke technology. They are not making 2 strokes anymore because, well, lets see.... the majority of people don't want them anymore. 4 strokes are the wave of the future right now.

But I have to say, my cr250 eats up 450f's all day long in the dunes. It's not even close, once I hit the powerband in 4th gear up a steep dune I am gone.... :)

[firefighterjosh]

Not real sure in 3 pages if anyone has even awnsered the person question.

I belive I am right but its not 2-strokes that are getting banned its the emmisions on them are so tight that they can not make them worth while. But you can still buy them and sell them like 3-wheelers

will people still be able to race the 250r in 2007 or 2008?

[krt400ex]

because they gave up on the 2 smokes...they cant figure out how to make a competitive 2 stroke, and they dont want to be bothered with a dying market. they decided to quit on it all together instead of working to make a kick A** 2 srtoke to beat the yz's.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by krt400ex
because they gave up on the 2 smokes...they cant figure out how to make a competitive 2 stroke, and they dont want to be bothered with a dying market. they decided to quit on it all together instead of working to make a kick A** 2 srtoke to beat the yz's.

Look at the cc advantage a 4 stroke has. You have to give the 4 stroke a 200 cc advantage for it to be more powerful vs a 2 stroke. As far as I am concerned, the AMA has killed the 2 stroke. First the banned leaded fuel, and leaded fuel was HUGE to a 2 stroke to help produce power. If the AMA would up displacement limits I would bet ALOT of people would still be racing 2 strokes. (They did do it for the 125's in the amateur ranks, looks like they need to do something for the 250's also.) Granted, this only applies to bikes, 2 strokes in ATV's are dead.

Doug

just curious what is the HP difference with leaded fuel vs unleaded fuel on a 2 stroke? anyone know??

[krt400ex]

Originally posted by Honda86
just curious what is the HP difference with leaded fuel vs unleaded fuel on a 2 stroke? anyone know??


there is no power difference. leaded fuel ups the octane, and allows higher compression to be used. 2 strokes benefit alot from higher compression, but since the leaded fuel was banned they can't go as radical with compression as they used to be able to. infact, there is more lead in your fuel from the gas station than in regular racing fuel that you'd buy for your bike...so much more that is illegal to use in the AMA. people have actually been penalized as cheaters for using pump gas cuz they ran out of race gas.

the AMA is one F'ed up organization IMO

[Ace250]

do you guys figure the rest of the companys will follow hondas example? i just couldnt see yamaha without 2-strokes.

honda has always been a 4 stroke company, but i could see suzuki doin away with the RM...its all about sales, if it dont sell and make money, its gone...i think the last to go would be KTM though....i really would liek to ride their new 144, i heard it makes abuout 4 HP more then any 250f...then get that 144 ported piped, reeds, etc...can u say keeping up with 250 pingers? :cool:

[krt400ex]

Originally posted by Honda86
honda has always been a 4 stroke company, but i could see suzuki doin away with the RM...its all about sales, if it dont sell and make money, its gone...i think the last to go would be KTM though....i really would liek to ride their new 144, i heard it makes abuout 4 HP more then any 250f...then get that 144 ported piped, reeds, etc...can u say keeping up with 250 pingers? :cool:


honda has always been a 2 smoke company until they came out with the CRF line. they had the greatest powerbands of any bike made all the way up until '97, and the handling was the best around too. they panicked after yamy came out with an all new yz125 in '95 (maybe '96...im not sure) and that is when they went down hill.


i do not think yamaha will follow in honda's footsteps till probably '09 or 2010.

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by CRich[814]
id take a brand new 1988 250R over any other wheeler ever made.


the 250r sucked... i dunno why people think its "god" a new 450r would run laps around a 250r stock for stock on a race track anyday...


remember the 250r wasn't the legend of racing... the leager was;)

the only people that hate the 4 strokes are the people that can't afford them... its that simple...

[400EXTRA]

2 STROKES ARE ONLY GOOD FOR FREESTYLE 4 STROKES ARE BETTER BECAUSE MORE RELIABLE AND MORE PERFORMANCE PARTS

[Tri-valleyracin]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
the 250r sucked... i dunno why people think its "god" a new 450r would run laps around a 250r stock for stock on a race track anyday...


remember the 250r wasn't the legend of racing... the leager was;)

the only people that hate the 4 strokes are the people that can't afford them... its that simple... i have to say ur right about the 250r but i bout a 2 stroke because i like the way the run and i know how to ride them. i can buy a 4 stroke if i wanted. i do have a 300ex i ride also but my race quad and my dirt bike are both 2 strokes and i would have it no other way.

[Tri-valleyracin]

Originally posted by 400EXTRA
2 STROKES ARE ONLY GOOD FOR FREESTYLE 4 STROKES ARE BETTER BECAUSE MORE RELIABLE AND MORE PERFORMANCE PARTS

a good topend rebuild on a 2 stroke will last as long as a 4 stroke and the new high tech race quads and bikes are breaking down all the time.

[krt400ex]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
the 250r sucked... i dunno why people think its "god" a new 450r would run laps around a 250r stock for stock on a race track anyday...


remember the 250r wasn't the legend of racing... the leager was;)

the only people that hate the 4 strokes are the people that can't afford them... its that simple...


i dunno what you are talking about. yea the suspension isn't as good on a modern 450, but if you bolted on a set of stock 450R shocks to a 250R and then sent them around the race track...the 250R would have it beat

the 250r isnt a god?? it only dominated for how many years?? :confused: and a stock frame is great on a 250r

i would take a 1989 250r over any 450 too...atleast i know i aint buying a peice, and id save like 4 grand :D

450s= rip off

[deathman53]

the 450s are nice, but they aren't what they are talked to either. I don't understand these new people, they are so brainwashed to think the 450's are the best and they love to say the 2 strokes are alot of maintence. A hard ridden 450 is just as much maintence, its just alot cheaper to do the same to a 2 stroke. I like both, the 4 strokes are easier to ride and are FASTER on a tight track than 2 strokes, on a open track, its up to rider abilty and how the bike is setup. The 250r was raced for so long because there was nothing else. A well modded 250r will stay with a 450, the suspension didn't get any better, nor did chassis design(if got worse). The only suspension changes that were made were re-buildable and remote/piggy back resourvar. Almost everyone who races went to aftermarket suspension anyway. I have ridden 450's, stock and modified, when stock, they aren't hard to beat. When modified, they aren't all that fast, a well done 2 stroke can beat them, it takes the right rider. Many have switched to the 450's due to sponserships, readily available parts and the pro production class. With all the pro's on 450's, this is what people see, and the 450's sell, it doesn't help that say, their 450 is worlds better than 250r(sponsers make them say that).

Honda stopped with the 2 strokes, due to declining sales, the pro classes and what the pro's are riding. It goes back to that its easier to ride them. For you guys that don't know, in the pitts at races, about 1/2-3/4 of the bikes don't have the motor in them, they get changed between qualifiing and the main event. The same as when 2 strokes were raced.

yes, 4 strokes are the wave of the future, but it still takes 2 times the motor size to make the same power. When 4 strokes make the same power cc to cc as 2 strokes, then you guys can talk all you want.

[300exQuadracer]

Originally posted by deathman53
yes, 4 strokes are the wave of the future, but it still takes 2 times the motor size to make the same power. When 4 strokes make the same power cc to cc as 2 strokes, then you guys can talk all you want.

i completely agree

and heres a direct quote from PRO Shane Hitt from this last year on his 450 at NC when he busted up his spine

"We've been dialing in my Honda since Ashtabula. I felt really good to finally be back to where I was health wise and equipment wise. It's been a while since I had a bike that worked as good as my old 250R, -- this one was right there."

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by krt400ex
i dunno what you are talking about. yea the suspension isn't as good on a modern 450, but if you bolted on a set of stock 450R shocks to a 250R and then sent them around the race track...the 250R would have it beat

wow dumb$uck go sit in the corner for that comment...

if you had any knowledge of suspension you would know that if you bolted 450r shocks on to the "o so great" 250r it would completly throw off the ratio of the shocks... the geometry isn't the same and the 450rs suspension will not work on the 250r correctly... i guess i wouldn't know thou seeing as my engineering classes deal with things like vibrations with dampners and springs and how to design suspension parts...

not only would the 450r kill it in suspension why don't u go look up some horse power and torque curves stock for stock;)

[deathman53]

the 4 strokes do make more power on the bottom end and more torque, the 2 strokes like to rev to make the power. 50 horses on a 250r can be gotten with porting, pipe, carb and reeds. For most of the 450's to hit those numbers you need to get a pipe, cam, and some require more stuff. The honda is the lowest(requires the most work), yfz requires a slip on pipe, lid delete and timing changed, suzuki requires the least,remove insert in stock exhaust, delete lid and cherry bomb. I am intersted to see what the ktm 450 quad(to be released ~ 09) will do, stock my 450exc rips and makes more power than can be used.

[krt400ex]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
wow dumb$uck go sit in the corner for that comment...

if you had any knowledge of suspension you would know that if you bolted 450r shocks on to the "o so great" 250r it would completly throw off the ratio of the shocks... the geometry isn't the same and the 450rs suspension will not work on the 250r correctly... i guess i wouldn't know thou seeing as my engineering classes deal with things like vibrations with dampners and springs and how to design suspension parts...

not only would the 450r kill it in suspension why don't u go look up some horse power and torque curves stock for stock;)


cool off. i know some ppl who have put 450 shocks on the 250R and said they are good...

so lets put it this way, put a set of high grade aftermarket shocks on both quads, and then run them around the track. the 250R's frame geomatry is better than the 450R and it is more stable.

don't go calling names...i don't make blind assumptions

haha tommy boy needs to chill out....

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by krt400ex
cool off. i know some ppl who have put 450 shocks on the 250R and said they are good...

so lets put it this way, put a set of high grade aftermarket shocks on both quads, and then run them around the track. the 250R's frame geomatry is better than the 450R and it is more stable.

don't go calling names...i don't make blind assumptions


I know people that dont know the first thing about suspension and they said the same thing....

How is a 250R going to beat a 450R around any track with equal suspension even. The power of the 450 is higher. Im talking stock for stock. I think it would be interesting but I dont see a 250R winning that race. Stock they are S L O W!!! They are extremely choked up stock.

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by krt400ex
cool off. i know some ppl who have put 450 shocks on the 250R and said they are good...

so lets put it this way, put a set of high grade aftermarket shocks on both quads, and then run them around the track. the 250R's frame geomatry is better than the 450R and it is more stable.

don't go calling names...i don't make blind assumptions

then don't make assumptions from a friend who knows nothing and make urself look stupid..


the 250r frame geometry is better? are u kidding me... if it was "so great" why did everyone change it:o

[juanki]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
I know people that dont know the first thing about suspension and they said the same thing....

How is a 250R going to beat a 450R around any track with equal suspension even. The power of the 450 is higher. Im talking stock for stock. I think it would be interesting but I dont see a 250R winning that race. Stock they are S L O W!!! They are extremely choked up stock.

OK, lets say that you have a 250r and a 450r with mods that give the same output of hp, to be fair, and put same aftermarket shocks.
what bike wolud you prefer to run at a track?
chasis???? 250r
handling???? 250r
botom power???? 450r
mid and top???? i'll say even

what more characteristics???

powerband????
holeshot?????
jumps?????
whoops???

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by juanki

chasis???? 250r
handling???? 250r


how can u say this??!??!?! are you people blind... how can u compare 1980s technology of a heavy square tubed weak frame with out dated geometry??? i'm being honest here... how can you even put it in the same "game" as the new frames?

the stock 1986 to 1989 250r frame was junk... if it was so great people wouldn't be rich off it like laegers, walsh, lsr, etc... yeah alot of things are based off it but the original stock 250r frame wasn't that great...

[deathman53]

you got it, juanki, this is why I love my hybrid, 250r chassis, but bottom end from a 4 stroke. For the oem 250r frames, 450r frames are no different, still make from the same grade steel, the difference being round tubing. I got bad news for you guys, 450r frames do break, also. All oem frames are weak, if oem 450r frames are so good, why does lsr sell aftermarket frames for them???? As far as handling, 250r, yfz, suzuki and last would be the 450r, in all stock forms. The 450r sits way too high, zps shocks do wonders do them. Have you 250r bad mouthers every ride a well done 250r?? If you guys did and stopped listening to the hype, brainwashing and rode a 250r hybrid(450r motor), you would see why the 250r handles better. Yes, the geometery was changed on the walsh, roll and SOME leagers, to make them a narrow front end to handle better in rough stuff with less bump steer. Alot of the aftermarket frames are almost exactly the same and use the stock parts.

the 450r shocks are alot different and better in stock form, but the aftermarket shocks for a 250r and 450r are equal. You are comparing apples to oranges, 2 different era's. Yes, the 450r is an improvement on many things, but honda hit the nail on the head with the chassis with the 88/89 250r, still yet to be duplicated by a OEM. If honda had kept the 250r geometery frame, I would consider to buy a 450r, I can't get over how they handle, the weight is centered too high.

450r shocks on a 250r are a bad idea, 2 competely different frames, when 450r shocks are on a 250r, it sits too high and stiff, when the opposite is done, the 450r sits too low and soft. As for the 250r choked up stock, well of course it is, look at the era, honda was geting lawsuits like crazy over the 3 wheelers, they wanted to reduce to lawsuits over the new stuff. The 450r is pretty choked up stock also, you need a cam, pipe, different cdi and intake mods to bring out the true power.

To be fair to the trikes, before you guys go on to say how dangerous they are, it takes a certain riding style to safely ride them, a big part of the lawsuits were fueled by money hungry lawyers and can't forget the kids, high/drunk, no rider training/expierence and people who bought the fastest bike they could with little training/experience on their parts. I love my trikes and can count on one hand the number of times I flipped in about 5 years, and all but one wasn't my fault. I want you to research how the manufactures are getting lawsuits from people getting hurt on 4 WHEELED atv's now, most were riding double, inexperienced, no safety stuff, kids and poeple who buy the fastest bike they can with little training/expierence. Its almost exactly the same as why people were getting hurt on the trikes, isn't it????? From 87-89 more people got hurt on 4 WHEELED ATV'S than all the years trikes were sold as new, but trikes are death traps aren't they???

[z-mann]

I own both, my 250r handle a lot better. To be fair I don't have the suspension work yet on my 450r but, the seat height and geometry won't change when I get a-arms and shocks. The newer 4 strokes are just plain easier to ride. But, they aren't faster than a 250r.

[deathman53]

we need more people who own both to chime in on this. I don't own a true 450r, but I have ridden enough to know, they aren't any faster, just make bottom power verses mid-top end power. I happen to love my trikes, I'm in a class by itself. I love to ride my dirtbikes and 4 wheelers too, just partial to my trikes. Many of these anti-250r guys probably never rode one, they are just going on what they heard.

My friend loves his 450r(its far from stock), he will admit he can do circles on it with my hybrid(formally his). He raced 250r's since the 90's and switched over to the 450's since you can get then new, compared to used and disconitnued parts with 250r's. He switched over in 04, when 250r parts started to disappear and getting brand new bikes was available.

[54warrior]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
guess i wouldn't know thou seeing as my engineering classes deal with things like vibrations with dampners and springs and how to design suspension parts...

how can u say this??!??!?! are you people blind... how can u compare 1980s technology of a heavy square tubed weak frame with out dated geometry??? i'm being honest here... how can you even put it in the same "game" as the new frames?

the stock 1986 to 1989 250r frame was junk... if it was so great people wouldn't be rich off it like laegers, walsh, lsr, etc... yeah alot of things are based off it but the original stock 250r frame wasn't that great...


I've read every post on this thread and you, TOMMY, sure do come off like a real @$$, unlike everyone else who has acted in a civil manner.

The stock 250r geometry is pretty much what EVERY modern quad is based off of. The aftermarket frames that people got rich off of were just round tube versions of the original, with some MINOR tweaks to the geometry that were discovered years later. How can you not expect them to come up with SOME improvements over 20 years time?

Was the 250R designed specifically to be raced? I think NOT. I'm sure that if it were, alot of these updates might have been incorporated then. I think chassis design hasn't changed that much in those 20 years since it's introduction.

If you want to point fingers, why are all these companies making different shock linkages for ALL the new quads? I guess the new machines aren't perfect either?!?! (Maybe you should take your Chassis engineering degree from PSU and apply for a job with one of the big 4 and fix all these problems for them, while your at it, dial in their shocks too since your such an expert!)



As far as the 2 vs. 4 thing. It's all about $$$, hasn't everyone realized that yet??? With all of these new government regulations, combined with the misconception that these new hi-perf. 4 strokes require less maintenance than their 2-stroke counterparts, many people have switched to them. Combine that with the fact that the top racers were using engines that were designed almost 20 years ago and that is what spelled the demise of the 2 strokes. It wasn't because the 4-strokes might be better, it was because of AMA regs, availability, and the desire to sell more ATV's. If it hadn't been for Yamaha and the 426 motor, we might not even be having this conversation. We also owe Cannondale a big pat on the back for getting the ATV segment of this 4-Stroke revolution going.

Yes, the 4's have more useable power and are easier to ride. Easier to work on/maintain: HECK NO. More fun to ride, perhaps. It takes alot more skill to ride a 2-stroke though.

I personally, would take the new 450 over the 250 any day. Simply because of parts availability and current market trends. If there was a modern 2-stroke and a modern 4-stroke though, the "new" 2 stroke would be going home in my truck.

[hsr]

Originally posted by 54warrior
I've read every post on this thread and you, TOMMY, sure do come off like a real @$$, unlike everyone else who has acted in a civil manner.

The stock 250r geometry is pretty much what EVERY modern quad is based off of. The aftermarket frames that people got rich off of were just round tube versions of the original, with some MINOR tweaks to the geometry that were discovered years later. How can you not expect them to come up with SOME improvements over 20 years time?

Was the 250R designed specifically to be raced? I think NOT. I'm sure that if it were, alot of these updates might have been incorporated then. I think chassis design hasn't changed that much in those 20 years since it's introduction.

If you want to point fingers, why are all these companies making different shock linkages for ALL the new quads? I guess the new machines aren't perfect either?!?! (Maybe you should take your Chassis engineering degree from PSU and apply for a job with one of the big 4 and fix all these problems for them, while your at it, dial in their shocks too since your such an expert!)



As far as the 2 vs. 4 thing. It's all about $$$, hasn't everyone realized that yet??? With all of these new government regulations, combined with the misconception that these new hi-perf. 4 strokes require less maintenance than their 2-stroke counterparts, many people have switched to them. Combine that with the fact that the top racers were using engines that were designed almost 20 years ago and that is what spelled the demise of the 2 strokes. It wasn't because the 4-strokes might be better, it was because of AMA regs, availability, and the desire to sell more ATV's. If it hadn't been for Yamaha and the 426 motor, we might not even be having this conversation. We also owe Cannondale a big pat on the back for getting the ATV segment of this 4-Stroke revolution going.

Yes, the 4's have more useable power and are easier to ride. Easier to work on/maintain: HECK NO. More fun to ride, perhaps. It takes alot more skill to ride a 2-stroke though.

I personally, would take the new 450 over the 250 any day. Simply because of parts availability and current market trends. If there was a modern 2-stroke and a modern 4-stroke though, the "new" 2 stroke would be going home in my truck.

amen to that

[reptikes]

54warrior,
That just might have been the most intelligent post in this whole mess.

I would like to add something though. A couple posts ago someone had stated that Honda was the leader in the 4 stroke technology ect. Is that true!?. Honda can sell on there name alone. The really don't change things all that much in there ATVs, STREET BIKEs, ect. unless they are really trying to boost sales in one catagory that might be on a downward slant or have some reacurring issues. Don't get me wrong Honda is awesome, i have a 450r. I recently went to Gattos Cycles (Honda, Kawasawki, Suzuki, Polaris dealer) and was told when comparing the 04 450r and the 07 450r to one another, and then to the 450YFZ that the Yamaha YFZ450 was supperior becuase Yamaha has been leading the technology race. Not a good thing to say to a guy inquiring on a new quad. So, how true is this ?

[54warrior]

I think they all have their +'s and -'s. If you look at the three that we can compare with each other right now, in no particular order: Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha (Kawasaki too new and unproven).

Remember, my opinion only:

Motor: Yamaha
Brakes/Suspension: Honda
Frame Geometry: Suzuki

Props to Kawi for the Aluminum frame

Remember, Cannondale was the first with alot of what many people think is "cutting edge" technology way back in 2001 (over half a decade ago, LOL). Unfortunately they just needed some more R&D. Technology which included Fuel Injection, Aluminum Frame, wider arms/axle, smaller "racing" tires/wheels, battery mounted low in chassis, fuel tank mounted low in chassis, etc...

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by 54warrior
I've read every post on this thread and you, TOMMY, sure do come off like a real @$$, unlike everyone else who has acted in a civil manner.


why thank u thats exactly what i was goin for haha... u read this site for 6 years and listen to everyone that thinks the 250r is the "greatest thing" and people who go half *** on stuff then come on here and ask why does my quad handle like ****... the point was to come off like an ******* because its about the only way u can knock it into some peoples minds that are still fightin for their horrible set ups 5 years down the road...


and btw they weren't just minor tweaks... movin the engine, changin the entire geometry of the rear shock, and moving front shock and a-arm mount locations is not a "minor" tweak...

[54warrior]

Originally posted by Tommy 17 and btw they weren't just minor tweaks... movin the engine, changin the entire geometry of the rear shock, and moving front shock and a-arm mount locations is not a "minor" tweak... [/B]

Changing the "entire geometry" of the rear shock was accomplished by using different swingarm/linkage combinations.

I and many others do consider slight adjustments to the a-arm mount locations as a minor tweak, we're not reinventing the wheel here man.

[krt400ex]

Originally posted by 54warrior
Changing the "entire geometry" of the rear shock was accomplished by using different swingarm/linkage combinations.

I and many others do consider slight adjustments to the a-arm mount locations as a minor tweak, we're not reinventing the wheel here man.


100% agreed.


tommy, you need to take some extra engineering classes...because you are way off the mark.