Breaking Frames, broke mine now Qs????? [Archive]

Rootar

02-11-2007, 07:58 PM

well as too what everyone has told me a conversion frame wont hold up well now after about 15 hours of ride time i broke mine, i havent wrecked but i have framed out pretty hard over shooting a few jumps, but it broke the motor mount tab clean through on the shifter side on the bottom..

what would be best to weld it with? (i have a rod welder here at the house up or i can get a wire welder)

and how would you fix it if it was yours?

here is a pic of the break

440challenger

02-11-2007, 08:02 PM

Id, probably grind a V in it and weld in front and back :confused:

BSTURDIVANT

02-11-2007, 08:09 PM

Tig or mig (wire)!

Rootar

02-11-2007, 08:10 PM

here is what i planned on doing, first pull the motor out of course and then i was gonna cut two tabs to match those and put them flush against the ones already there, after i weld the one thats broken back in place (making them double thick), then i was going to put 4 triangle gussets like shown with the yellow lines ( 2 triangles on the bottom sides of the tabs and then two triangles on the top sides to match) that should be plenty strong am i right???

plus we are gonna gusset that tube that the mounts are on.

Rootar

02-11-2007, 08:18 PM

i dont have time to take the dam motor out and gusset this thing up between race weekends and such all the time we are about to go through this sucker this week and make it a tank, the front is all gusseted up good but the little motor mount tabs like pictured look weak as well water, gonna throw a few gussets up the rear frame rails and around the rear shock mount, i might as well bridge the frame rail out while im at it, itd make my airbox set up work much better and it wouldnt be a pain in the rear to get on and off..... guess its time to do a little research and find out where else this thing is gonna break on me, i cant afford to put it on an aftermarket frame till next season so this thing has to last and im far from easy on my stuff:o

joeb23

02-11-2007, 08:34 PM

where did you buy the bottom mounts or did you have atv four play do everything?

Rootar

02-11-2007, 08:52 PM

i bought the frame already converted with the motor in it, so yes atvfourplay did the conversion, it seems to me like they got it too hot when welding and it made it brittle right past the weld which is where it broke. everything bolts up nice and fits very well execpt my air boot which is a capital B so since im gonna have it down to a bare frame i guess i might as well fix that and make my radiator mounts more permenant while im at it. i dunno

Glamis400ex

02-12-2007, 05:24 PM

I believe the ONLY real answer is an aftermarket frame. Your'e gonna keep welding on different spots all over that frame. I know it's spendy but I'm glad I have one.

Glamis

protraxrptr17

02-12-2007, 05:47 PM

Just MIG it, and don't put any gussets. That's not bad at all. One thing I have learned about these things is if you make one thing too stiff, it will make something else flex too much. These frames flex way more than you think. You may have to weld a cracked tab every now and then, it's no big deal. There is no way ANY frame can take the abuse we put them through. Even the aftermarket 4130 frames. They crack up too.

Pappy

02-12-2007, 07:00 PM

i would tend to agree with protrax....

i would add some form of support there however as it is an area that will keep breaking. if you have access to a TIG, that would be the better choice do to that part of your chassis is chromoly (from the conversion @ ATV Four Play) but if you just need to get her going, MIG wont hurt anything.

Fix it, ride it, fix it , ride it...

Rootar

02-12-2007, 08:07 PM

i jsut finished tearing it down and im pissed, found 3 MORE breaks, 1 crack, and i have to put two more radiator mounts on and then fix all the cracks and the 4 breaks this PC work you did pappy aint gonna be to pretty if this thing is gonna break this often.

so should i atleast double the tabs or put a little small gusset on each one to help it last a little longer, it would still flex but less.....

i would rather weld the frame some where up top than have to take the motor out i guess:( i dunno :ermm: im jsut dissappointed with how this whole bike is turning out, im wishing i still had my 416 and built its motor up now...

ss440ex

02-12-2007, 09:18 PM

Show us pics of where the cracks are at..I saw the lower engine mount.

Pappy

02-12-2007, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Rootar
i jsut finished tearing it down and im pissed, found 3 MORE breaks, 1 crack, and i have to put two more radiator mounts on and then fix all the cracks and the 4 breaks this PC work you did pappy aint gonna be to pretty if this thing is gonna break this often.

so should i atleast double the tabs or put a little small gusset on each one to help it last a little longer, it would still flex but less.....

i would rather weld the frame some where up top than have to take the motor out i guess:( i dunno :ermm: im jsut dissappointed with how this whole bike is turning out, im wishing i still had my 416 and built its motor up now...

well, the finish can always be redone, but you need to look at what your working with here, and what you do with that quad! there isnt anything made that will not break under the stress of the types of riding you do. ramps, large jumps etc. something has got to give. and to top that off, your using a frame that was designed for a 400cc engine and moderate sport type abuse that is now outfitted with a much more powerful engine and doing things that it was never designed to do.

even switching to an aftermarket chassis will have the same cracks your faced with now, albiet at a slower pace(at first, once chromoly fatigues its a crack monster just like the stock frames)
strip it, gusset it, reassemble and ride it. ive seen XC quads in the same shape, ive seen MX quads welded on after every few races. if your going to push it, you pay the price.

protraxrptr17

02-13-2007, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by Pappy
Fix it, ride it, fix it, ride it...

Don't freak out, these are the facts of life. Just fix it and move on.

Rootar

02-13-2007, 05:18 AM

alrighty i guess im gonna stop by the hardware store and pick me up a good cordless impact because im tired of turning wrenchs by hand and it seems im gonna be working on this thing alot so oh well

300exQuadracer

02-13-2007, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Rootar
i was going to put 4 triangle gussets like shown with the yellow lines ( 2 triangles on the bottom sides of the tabs and then two triangles on the top sides to match) that should be plenty strong am i right???

plus we are gonna gusset that tube that the mounts are on.

if i was to gusset up the tabs just do one centered on the tab and stop right before the bolt head is so the head clears (see pic). you can still weld to and bottom on the gusset and it is just as strong as using one top and bottom and it also still give a little flex

Rootar

02-13-2007, 05:37 PM

i already cut two new tabs out of 1/8th inch plate to be welded to the tabs already there so they will be double thick, and flex better than with a gusset, if that doesnt work ill try the mini gusset you showed, as for the other breaks and cracks they were at factory welds on the frame and im just grinding them out and re-welding them good (some of these factory welds didnt penetrate worth crap into the tube they were welding to)

TampaBoy813

02-18-2007, 08:30 AM

figair

02-19-2007, 09:24 AM

I guess i should post pics of aftermarket frames cracked as well,Shoot might as well add the production bike frames cracked to......

I agree w/you guys but not 100%completely....I would really like to see how you guys ride,than we can talk,,I want to see how you guys come up short,and all the other badd angles you land,and see if ANY frame doesnt crack..Just cause he has a hybrid motor doesnt necessary mean its going to crack,yes I am sure it adds to it,but I believe it is aot to do w/the rider also..How hes riding capabilities are,just my 2 cents...I have had mine for a few now,and HAVE NOT had any problems w/mine...Been taking to the track quit a bit this year,and have had no probs,KNOCK ON WOOD,lol.....

figair

02-19-2007, 09:24 AM

figair

02-19-2007, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Glamis400ex
I believe the ONLY real answer is an aftermarket frame. Your'e gonna keep welding on different spots all over that frame. I know it's spendy but I'm glad I have one.

Glamis
Whats up ALLEN,your quad is sweet,take your quad up to the track see how she does,I know majority of your riding is on sand,,,I dont really think that makes a diffrence if it is aftermarket or stock...give it some Real abuse.Im not trying to be a prick,but everyone I know that has a stock frame w/a conversion.HAS had no problems,there might be a few that you here of, here and there like for instance this mans case..I read and hear more production bike crack than I do of the conversions,again My stupid 2 cents....:D

Glamis400ex

02-19-2007, 04:55 PM

What's up Eddie....you still need to come by and check it out or I need to get down to your place for some airbrushing.

Nah, you're not being a prick about stock frames and actually your yz450 appears to be damn good. They'll all crack if subjected to enough abuse. But, when I was looking for a hybrid I found several 400ex conversion frames (both YZ and CRF) for the same money as aftermarket frames.

I wasn't going to spend 5K on a 400ex conversion when I could get the full Houser chassis CRF450 for another $500. THAT was a no brainer.

Alin

figair

02-19-2007, 06:23 PM

you got it big daddy........

protraxrptr17

02-19-2007, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by TampaBoy813
yep...thats 100% right...its never going to hold up...

Are you trolling? I have already seen two posts in the hybrid forum where you are bashing hybrids. If you have some sort of vast hybrid experience, by all means, let's hear it. I see in your signature (which looks to be pretty in-depth.) that you have had only one "hybrid", and God only knows who did the work. I see a new addition to my ignore list coming up.

Rootar

02-19-2007, 08:19 PM

well i would have to say its my riding style i cant deny it i over shoot the heck out of my ramp sometimes and im game to try about any jump you can put in front of me some of which you cant help for a harsh landing. my stuff is well taken care of but it gets rode hard, and btw i know that i broke my frame when i over shot my ramp about 3 weeks ago because it wasnt broken the weekend before that, i would know i had the motor out.

the upper rails cracked becasue the spacers had squished and werent wide enough between the rails.

figair

02-19-2007, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by Rootar
well i would have to say its my riding style i cant deny it i over shoot the heck out of my ramp sometimes and im game to try about any jump you can put in front of me some of which you cant help for a harsh landing. my stuff is well taken care of but it gets rode hard, and btw i know that i broke my frame when i over shot my ramp about 3 weeks ago because it wasnt broken the weekend before that, i would know i had the motor out.

the upper rails cracked becasue the spacers had squished and werent wide enough between the rails.

Honest man.exactly what i am saying though..You a crazy man,and ride it hard..Thats the way it should be ridden....

Protrax,I also agree w/you tampaboy is alway bashing the hybrids..Hes might of been hacked thats why,hes speaks so negative about them..I am not sure,but I do remember his quad being pretty sweet though..Oh well.everyone entitledto there opinion..

figair

TampaBoy813

02-20-2007, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by figair
Honest man.exactly what i am saying though..You a crazy man,and ride it hard..Thats the way it should be ridden....

Protrax,I also agree w/you tampaboy is alway bashing the hybrids..Hes might of been hacked thats why,hes speaks so negative about them..I am not sure,but I do remember his quad being pretty sweet though..Oh well.everyone entitledto there opinion..

figair mine was far from a hack j0b...
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4984/0000224ls5.jpg
I just like to talk the truth so people are not led to believe that the stock 400ex frame will hold this motor...with out cracking...weld till your eyes turn blue its never going to hold and never going to be a "Real HyBrid"...just buy a frame and do it the right way!!!
this is just my .02 do it right the 1st and have a quad worth some thing...and I do not bash Hybrid...just ChopJ0bBrids!

protraxrptr17

02-20-2007, 05:15 AM

What defines a real hybrid? My definition of a hybrid is any quad with any engine that didn't originally come with that frame, that may or may not be a motorcycle engine. As I said before, all frames break, doesn't matter if they were made by Lonestar, JRD, Walsh, Honda, or whoever. As a matter of fact, the so called "real hybrids" you speak, are made from 4130 not to be stronger, but so they can be lighter. 4130 is stronger than steel, so therefore you can use tubing that has a thinner wall thickness. 4130 is also brittle as glass if it's not welded correctly. After many stress cycles these thin, light frames will start to crack. Eventually, the entire stucture will crumble into pieces. You can weld the cracks, but after it has been stressed, it's pretty much trash. Steel on the other hand, can be repaired many times. It can be flexed many more times before breaking. Welding is much more forgiving on steel too. You can only TIG 4130. How many here have a TIG? How many here have MIG, or stick, or flux core, or acelyene torch and a clothes hanger? All these are acceptable methods for welding mild steel. Yeah, after market frames are cool, they cost mega bucks, the narrow CR500 ones handle a little better, but to say they are the only real hybrids and they hold up better is just wrong.

Looks arent everything, you can paint a turd candy red, and it's still a turd.:macho

Rootar

02-20-2007, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by TampaBoy813

this is just my .02 do it right the 1st and have a quad worth some thing...and I do not bash Hybrid...just ChopJ0bBrids!

HOLD UP, how is my crf a "ChopJ0bBrid" it was done by atvfourplay fully gussted no corners cut everything on mine is done including machining the axle to where my chain lines up the right way, this whole thing was just a question on how to fix something i broke, and seeing if i could improve the strength of what i have. I was talking to my metals class teacher and mentioned an aftermarket 4310 frame and he said "youll have even worse problems after it starts to crack becasue once it goes it goes" the way i see it you can CONVERT not HACK or CHOP 3-4 good frames for the price of one aftermarket frame sure buying one would be easy but anyone can buy one. and from my research those converted frames would outlast that one frame by a long time sure your gonna have to weld them now and agian but like pappy said you gotta pay to play.

btw mine is fixed up and ripping around again