06 Estart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GIXXER1KR]

Whats up with these things blowing starters..Well when i had my 01 Raptor they were known for the same problem.I GOT RID OF IT!!!!But eventually Yamaha came out with an improved 1 way clutch bearing and so did an aftermarket company,cant remember the name of it.But the oem starter clutch bearing was $180 a pop not too mention the rest of the parts needed.And there were several people who would bring it to the dealer and a few weeks later it would happen again!!!I should of given it more though about buying a 1st year Estart but thats what attracted me to the 06.I loved the 1st year 450 but was all set with buying a 4 stroke and having to kick it over!!!I have a built 2 stroke and i was sick of kicking it over all the time when my buddies would push a button and go!!!.But i figured the 400EX has been electric start for years so Honda new what they were doing.Most 400ex's still booting around with no starter problems..It rediculous it took Honda till a few months ago to mail everyone a manual about how to avoid this issue.I never used the throttle during starting but most people are used to giving a bike a little gas when starting.But since its gotten cold here i had to majorly rejet for the weather.Which is a common thing but most people i know with 4 strokes dont really mess with it!!!Enough said..I hope Honda figures something out because i can see i may possibly need one.LOL!!!Its 27degrees now and i am going to go see if its a PITA to start...

[GIXXER1KR]

Well after a lot of clonking and a few really sickly sounding cranks,like something was outta place it started.Its such a ***** to start but once it starts after a few second of running it fires right up.Any ideas!!!I put my pilot up to a 48 from a 42 and this helped a ton!!It no longer backfires on de accel too.Im lost and waiting for the starter to grenade.Its only 1 year old.Granted i have the extended warant but will they blame it on the valves or my HRC kit.I dont get it!!!:confused: I guess that i can expect to be changing starters as a routine maintenance!!!!!!!:D I hope there eventually some updated parts for this!!!

[daniel981]

Originally posted by GIXXER1KR
... Its 27degrees now and i am going to go see if its a PITA to start...

Good luck with that!

I just bought my 450, so do you think Honda is going to mail out the manual you were talking about to all the new people? What did that manual say? thx

[GIXXER1KR]

No ull be fine.It was a few pages telling you about normal maintenance.Highly stressed about the no throttle when starting and recommended running the OEM foam filters!!!Nothing ur missing out on!!!;)

[lumi]

thee starters are very very sensitive they cost about 50 dollars for the one way and if u take out other parts can cost up to 150 with gaskets and all which still isnt too bad but....


anyways low oil, extended cranking and throttle during cranking will cause the starter clutch to fail....


hearing sounds from it as i have heard is a sign that it has worn.


u have to be really sensitive with the e-start... :( suks

im actually doing a write up on this whole issue soon explaing exactly how it works and what can fail and so on with pics and all.... but hey in ur case just tear it apart and replace the 50$ clutch and ur good to go. doesnt sound like u murdered the whole system but it does sound like u did some "agressive" starting


good luck

-lumi

[GIXXER1KR]

No i know how to start my bike and no,,I never gave it any throttle or excessive turning over.Just with the freezing weather it takes a little more to get it started and eventually it kicks back once in a while with a loud clank.I am going to also try a battery tender so it well keep the rpms up to a max when cranking it over cold.Its been fine up until the dramatic change in weather.It went from mid50's to 20's in a matter of a few days!!!!!!!;)Anyone know what the costs are to add a kicker and would i have to change my plastics for that!!!

[lumi]

it costs about 500 bucks... and u will need to cut a piece of the plastic where the kicker shaft goes as to what i know... 50 bucks beats that imo...


well than u got me stumped.. usally it goes from a rider error thing, but maybe its not engage from the oil bee to thick and giving it a harder time than usual..

jetting and the decomp setting can effect the starting performance aswell... if the battery always turn over slow either ur bad has been sitting too long or ur decomp is off... if it turns over fine but doesnt start, jetting and the cold weather most likely the culprit.



jmho


-lumi

[rollie]

Mine is also a ***** to start but once its hot it firs up with no problem at all. I still plan on getting a kicker i dont know if ill keep the electric or not, hasnt failed yet, any idea if a 04-05 subframe will fit on an 07 so if i take the battery off the ugly mount wont still be there? thanks

[GIXXER1KR]

Lumi thanks for the input!!I was thinking about maybe a valve and decomp adjutment but it does turn over fine.And since i rejetted it it does start better but when it does kick back once in a while its not a healthy sound.I was gonna bring it in to the dealer for a valve adjustment because of warranty purposes.I though it was jetting but it does start better after the rejet but it takes longer than it should and sounds like once in a while something is outter place and the starter isnt smooth.But as long as its turning over fast and smooth it should start!!!!Oce it fire uo and runs a about 30 seconds it fires right up:( :confused: I think maybe a 42 to a 48 was to big of a jump in jetting.It had a 42 from the HRC kit in it...I now have an adjustable air screw.I just when and turned it over while its warm and gave it pops with a nice backfiring flame.Maybe go to a 45 or adjust the 42 with the airfuel screw i added!!!

[lumi]

ill post a video of mine quad starting and a fellow freinds.... and tell me if it sounds anything close to this....


the weather can be making it harder than usual to start...


but its under warranty bring it to the dealer..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqYcjU-aAAk

HERE AND ILL GET THE OTHER ONE UP LATA.. thats mine its like about 6 months on that starter.... never over cranked, no throttle while cranking and proper oil and level... does ur start like this or crank over like this..? or did it ever do...


slow cranking like i said is either almsot dead battery or a out of spec decomp clearance... valves if there way off will make for a quad not to start and wont effect speed of cranking...


valve adjustment and jetting can be u culprit, so if u say the jetting is good, check the valve celearances or bring it to the dealer.




-lumi

[GIXXER1KR]

Well now that im getting a huge backfire and then it starts not giving it any fuel i when its warm i rembered that i added an airfuel screw(DUH!!!)So i turned it in all the way to full closed and it stayed running so i guess i gotta go down to a 45 pilot or should i put the 142 back and try the air/fuel adjustment!!!Its only been a problem since its been real cold.And the backfiring and popping on deacell definately makes me think its jetting.Now with the larger (maybe to large) of a pilot its not backfiring on deaccel but tough to sart.And the pop is a burst of fuel igniting from the too large of a pilot.The bike should choke and stall with the A/F screw closed!!!!

[TWISTED]

This Sunday, I choked mine out and went to start it. It sounded like a broken connecting rod.... We finally had to pull it to get it started. I cut it off after another lap and then hit the button and it fired right up... What's up with that???

[GIXXER1KR]

I had almost the same problem but it finally started.I am messing with the pilot jetting.I am trying to figure out if its to rich now because it backfires with a big blue flame!!!

[Lonestar_R]

mine can sit for quite a while (months at a time) in my garge which is not much above freezing....I would say it maybe 35-37 degrees all winter long....and I hit the throttle 5 times and she will fire right up. now I do have a battery tender on it all winter also

[ieatglue]

i just ordered all the parts to add a kicker to my 06 (except for the kicker itself, gonna use a 05 and grind it a little) and cost me $261 total including shipping. my honda dealer was gonna be over $400 for all of it. i ordered it for hondaparts-direct.com

[lumi]

u sure u got all the parts im pretty sure about 3 people i know paid 500$




-lumi

[ieatglue]

yep, got everything but the kicker itself and plastic. i went to my local honda dealer and wrote down all the part numbers from the microfiche thing, im sure its everything. this was the cheapest place i have found and i have been looking for about a month.

[GIXXER1KR]

Id like to see pics of what to look for.I know the one way bearing and stuff but id like to see failed parts.Im sure theres enough of em out there.If mine does fail its going to the dealer under warranty!!!

[TWISTED]

Originally posted by GIXXER1KR
Id like to see pics of what to look for.I know the one way bearing and stuff but id like to see failed parts.Im sure theres enough of em out there.If mine does fail its going to the dealer under warranty!!!

Me too. That e start is the reason I bought an extended warranty...

[lumi]

yea looks like the parts are aorund 300 bucks or so... wierd.

here my thread with pics... thanks to chad and greg and blackie for the pics.


i also talk about the kicker and stuff http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=34430&st=0


-lumi

[Flodies400ex]

is it hard to put the kick on because I would like to do that soon when I can afford it lol

[lumi]

i can see where u got that price now... minus the 93 dollar kickstart itslef...

did u get a right case gasket? oil seal for the kicker lever? and a extra replacement lock tab for the clutch...

my freind actually is making a kit soon. i think.

its not that hard but requires some skills..... u need a service manual...a troque wrench some other tools, tranny lube, moly paste and $$


-lumi

[cLogan]

do u have to split the case to get to replace this mine is doing the exact same thing gotta rock it to get the gear to engage

[mikesbikes09]

post the part number im going to do this!

[lumi]

no u do not, only the complete right side cover.

than the whole clutch assembly and 2 gears and than the starter clutch in the hosuing..... but like i said a service manual and torque wrecnh and some knowledge is needed.




-lumi

[ieatglue]

i got everything today from ups, it is everything but the kicker and the gasket (my friend has an extra so i didn't order one). i bought used kicker from an 05 for $40. so without the gasket i'm sittin at just a couple dollars over $300 for everything. i am putting it all in tomorrow so i will let you know how it goes.

later
bob

[Woodsracer400ex]

Hey guys, I have a 2006 450er and have had problems with it starting. Not when it is cold but when it's warm and I had been riding a while. I kept reading all these threads on what to do? Kickstart? Replace parts? Incorrect starting procedures? I would be riding xc for about an hour and would stall and the bike would not crank, one time it made the cunking sound but started, this time it would turn and turn but would start, I pushed it to the edge of a hill and rolled down it dropping into 2nd gear and it started and was fine the rest of the day. So the solution I found was tyring to get a battery with more cranking amps, but this battery that honda make offers the most amp so that was out the window. Then I got brave and bought a battery that was a 1- 1 1/2 taller with about 15 more cranking amps than stock. I have seen a 100% turn around since then. My problem wasn't starting the quad that is easy if your jetting is right, when the quad would warm up and stall you will either be racing or practicing and it will turn to the piont were it wants to fire but wont so you try to hang in there and hold the button a couple of seconds longer and then it fires, thats what cause the starter to fail. With this oversized battery from interstate batteries it works great, the only thing is you will have to make your own custome bracket to hold the battery in. It like to fire up twice as fast, thus not putting strain on the starter, I never try to start longer than 5 sec.s and then wait a few seconds before trying again.

[sandmanblue]

I honestly believe the biggest problem ppl face with the ER not starting is the setting of their decompressor.

I just got done with a rebuild and checked the cranking compression - it was at 65 psi. I left it that way and found out was a little hard to start. I also had a couple backfires through the exhaust (I guess that's not really a backfire... ).

I was hearing several other 450R's doing the same thing (kicker versions) and thought about what was happening. It seemed that if the decompressor was set to too low a pressure (too tight a gap), it would open the exhaust valve a LOT sooner than it should and it would basically allow the exhaust to escape through the open valve, rather than push the piston down and start the motor.

Yesterday, I rechecked the cranking compression and it was still at 65 psi, so I reset the decompressor only 1/4 turn (counterclockwise.looser) and the cranking compression jumped to 75 psi.

Put it all together and it started immediately. I am not kidding. It maybe turned the motor over one time and BOOM. Fired right up.


So to those of you that are having problems starting the ER, especially if you have installed a cam of any type, set your decompressor not by what Honda says (clearance) but by compression testing. You can buy a compressin tester cheaply at auto parts stores. Set the decompressor clearance to make 75 psi when cranking the motor over with the throttle WIDE open (very important).

This should eliminate any of the hard starting issues some ppl have been having.

[ieatglue]

heres a pic of my kicker added to my 06 er, i just got it done today. the whole install took me 30-45 minutes and the cost was around $325 for all the parts. it hasn't been started for about month because of the cold weather but it started on the second kick. it still kicks easy with out a hot start too. other mods are hrc head pipe, no spark arrestor, stage 2 hc, no airbox lid. i don't know exactly what i set the decompressor at when i put the cam in but it starts good with the electric or kick start.

[Woodsracer400ex]

Just curious, if you get a kick start added to an 450er can you still use the electric start and let the kick be your back up. Also the decompression adjusting, never done it. Is this something that is easy to do or does it require great skill?

[ieatglue]

you can use both estart and kickstart. adjusting the decompressor is easy. i would do like sandman said and set it with a compression tester. when i put the cam in i set it at honda specs and it wouldn't hardly start. i adjusted it a 1/8 of a turn at a time and it starts great, both estart and kickstart

[400ex45]

all i have to say about the e start problem is that if you change your oil every 2 to 3 good rides you will not have a problem.

[lumi]

i talked to one guy who said that using the kickstart while having the starter clutch assmebly still installed wears the starter clutch out faster or something.... but i have talked to other people who said this wasnt true and that the kicker will not engage or have anything to do with starter clutch. something like bump starting the quad which aswell will not effect anything with the starter system
so to me seems like a very east install with no loss except money..

congrats on the install looks cool to have both.

as for me im too lazy and gonna keep my e-start :) even tho u have to start it like a girl.

im also gonna agree with everything sandman said, one smart fella for sure.

-lumi:D

[jb500ex]

adding a kicker is a great investment and the bike starts easier then the 05 kicker's. their will be times where you might need a hotstart but it's still better then just the er

[Dave400ex]

I sold my 06ER and got an 07 kicker. I'm happy I did. I don't have to worry about all of the problems anymore.

[400ex45]

there are no porblem with anything on the er if you do good maintenance on them. i know alot of people that have not had a problem with them but the change frequently. i just hate how alot of people say that this bike has all these problems but when i comes down to it, about 98% of the time it is the riders fault why it broke.

[ieatglue]

i had a problem once and honda put out a different part number for one piece in their bulliten and replaced mine under warrenty. it was not my fault either. on the late 06 and 07s they put the other part in and haven't had any problems. since i had mine fixed there have been no problems with the estart at all, i just wanted the kickstart for a back up. i do agree that most of the problems are from the owners, especially lack of mantinece. i have been a proud honda rider for over 10 years and will continue to be, one little problem doesn't make them a bad machine at all.

[TCracin440ex]

Originally posted by GIXXER1KR
Whats up with these things blowing starters..Well when i had my 01 Raptor they were known for the same problem.I GOT RID OF IT!!!!But eventually Yamaha came out with an improved 1 way clutch bearing and so did an aftermarket company,cant remember the name of it.But the oem starter clutch bearing was $180 a pop not too mention the rest of the parts needed.And there were several people who would bring it to the dealer and a few weeks later it would happen again!!!I should of given it more though about buying a 1st year Estart but thats what attracted me to the 06.I loved the 1st year 450 but was all set with buying a 4 stroke and having to kick it over!!!I have a built 2 stroke and i was sick of kicking it over all the time when my buddies would push a button and go!!!.But i figured the 400EX has been electric start for years so Honda new what they were doing.Most 400ex's still booting around with no starter problems..It rediculous it took Honda till a few months ago to mail everyone a manual about how to avoid this issue.I never used the throttle during starting but most people are used to giving a bike a little gas when starting.But since its gotten cold here i had to majorly rejet for the weather.Which is a common thing but most people i know with 4 strokes dont really mess with it!!!Enough said..I hope Honda figures something out because i can see i may possibly need one.LOL!!!Its 27degrees now and i am going to go see if its a PITA to start...


mine is a pita to start in teh cold but the thing that i do is i blip the gas twice before i start turning it over and crack the coke wfo and she fires right up no problem...usually it will stall right back out but bout the 2nd time i do it she will run and stay running...

[mikesbikes09]

PART NUMBERS?? ANY ONE??????

[lumi]

Originally posted by sponge_bob
i had a problem once and honda put out a different part number for one piece in their bulliten and replaced mine under warrenty. it was not my fault either. on the late 06 and 07s they put the other part in and haven't had any problems. since i had mine fixed there have been no problems with the estart at all, i just wanted the kickstart for a back up. i do agree that most of the problems are from the owners, especially lack of mantinece. i have been a proud honda rider for over 10 years and will continue to be, one little problem doesn't make them a bad machine at all.

i havent heard of anything about this.... and nothing on the tech bullentins u have the parts number they replaced?



-lumi

[tfuchs]

If I get ambitious I might take some pics of my Dual battery Setup. It starts Wicked Fast and doesnt make all of the crappy noises when I start it. I use mine for XC racing so starting fast is a huge issue with me. Now It starts faster than any other quad I have ridden.

[mikesbikes09]

post pics!!!!!!!!!!!

[lumi]

the decomp helps alot... makes the starter spin faster or make it spin slower, aka more comp.. the reason for a bigger battery would be to use more comp, slower spinning starter to make it spin faster, but than the starter handling more load than it can handle, dont know how that would work in the long run. cuz i would imagine the starter can only handle pushing or grabbing a certain amount of comp before it slips? cuz a bigger battery with the decomp set for more comp will most likely push it more than the stock battery can.... but imo the stock battery even tho cant spin a high load comp when set strong will spin less comp fast and enough to start the machine very fast.... if this is not the case i would look in to valve adjustment being out of spec or jetting....


decomp is very important for the e-start model.. as many things are :(




-lumi

[tfuchs]

You can put a 300cca Harley Battery on it and it dont help, I have tried, I just hit that starter with 24v. I know your all gonna say it is gonna fry the starter, but the starter does less work now than before. If all I have to do is change the starter once a year I can live with that.
XC racing is all about the holeshot and I am not letting the starting issue hold me back.

[tfuchs]

this is a video of my quad starting, Its not very loud but you can see how well it starts.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b63/tfuchs/th_450r009.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b63/tfuchs/?action=view&current=450r009.flv)

[mikesbikes09]

what excatly did you do im tired of loosing the whole shot i hit everysigle one on my 440

[lumi]

that sounds a bit faster than mine

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AqYcjU-aAAk


^ 6 month old quad/starter... but than again i dont race and baby the hell outta mine.



-lumi

[tfuchs]

I dont baby mine, Its a year old and I race it hard.

I run two batterires, 24v to the starter and 12v to the rest.
I do sell kits for the 450er's

[lumi]

yup exactly what i was mentioning, racers have no time to put it in neutral make sure not to touch the throttle and dont care how long they hold it as long as the thing starts lol



-lumi

[tfuchs]

Hell I can start mine in gear without the clutch LOL!!

[mikesbikes09]

how much foir the dual battrie kit mins and 06 i also race hard xc and im getting smoke dof the line by the kickers

[tfuchs]

$299 for the kit, It includes a new aluminum airbox with battery mount, new battery and all wiring needed.

[mikesbikes09]

any pictures?

[tfuchs]

The quads dirty

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b63/tfuchs/450r003-1.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b63/tfuchs/450r001.jpg

[mikesbikes09]

i think im just going to do the kicker mod