shock linkage

[atvrider23054]

What is the rear linkage on shocks? And what does it do; like if i got one for xc or mx?

Thanks.

[400exrider707]

It is where the bottom of your rear shock connects to. You can accomplish a lot with a linkage... mostly changing shock geometry to get a more progressive rate, or you can also lower your quad with one. Either way your rear shock will need to be vavled/sprung to match the new linkage.

[atvrider23054]

ok, thanks for the info. Not sure if I should get one for xc or not.

[beatie]

This is a linkage ive made that works very well with the stock rear shock. I have about a 3 to 4 inch increase in travel and is alot more plush. This is the final of three prototypes ive done this one is the winner. Ive since made several for all my friends and plan on selling them online one day soon.

[beatie]

this is for a 400ex

[beatie]

My friend added the sticker. Ive rode two people across very rough terrain for an extended time with no problems. Uses stock bearings.

[beatie]

2001 400ex: Hyper wheels plus 1" in rear, -1" up front, ITP GNCC tires, Houser swingarm plus 1.25", long travel linkage, Houser a-arms plus 2", Elka shocks, GPR steering damper with remote adjustment, Whitebrothers full exhaust, jet kit, high rev cdi box, Hotcames stage2, 418 big bore kit, 10:1 piston, Hotrods heavy duty crank, ceramic bearings, full skids, and alot of love

O yea and check out the video i made riding at Englishtown N.J.


http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=joe+biank

[400exrider707]

Who redid your shock to match the linkage?? How are you figuring 3-4 more inches of travel?

[Colby@C&DRacing]

Ya I would like to see were you are getting your #'s.

I got GT Thunders XC link, that allows 3-4" of "sag" - that is, rear end drop without any rider weight. (MY rear end is now 3-4" lower than stock) In other words, when you lift the rear by grab bar, there's 3-4" of up travel BEFORE the rear wheels lift off the ground.

Maybe that's what he means.

Its pretty difficult (read: expensive) to add much travel to the rear end.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by garandman
I got GT Thunders XC link, that allows 3-4" of sag - that is, rear end drop without any rider weight. (MY rear end is now 3-4" lower than stock) In other words, when you lift the rear by grab bar, there's 3-4" of up travel BEFORE the rear wheels lift off the ground.

Maybe that's what he means.

Its pretty difficult (read: expensive) to add much travel to the rear end.

No its not that difficult at all actually, and I know I understand, and Im sure Colby has a vast understanding on the subject.

3-4inches of sag is possible, but that does not add any travel. Still the same shock with the same amount of shock travel, if he hasn't done anything to it. Repositioning the shock mount on the linkage could gain or lose you travel, but I dont see where 3-4 inches is possible.

Also from his pics, his linkage looks almost straight with hardly and bend to it. If anything it looks like stock, or it might actually even raise the back end up.:huh

Originally posted by 400exrider707
No its not that difficult at all actually, and I know I understand, and Im sure Colby has a vast understanding on the subject.

3-4inches of sag is possible, but that does not add any travel.

I'm saying adding 3-4" of additional wheel travel is gonna take some SERIOUS mods.

Its easy and fairly cheap to add sag.



Also from his pics, his linkage looks almost straight with hardly and bend to it. If anything it looks like stock, or it might actually even raise the back end up.:huh

Yup.

[400exrider707]

gotcha... now lets here what beatie has to say about this.....

[beatie]

Wow where to start, Well without a in depth geometry lesson its really not that hard to understand. The GT Thunder linkage as a noticable bend to propable compansate for a longer shock with more travel, or long travel shocks. If you use the stock shock with it, it will lower the ride height. My linkage is designed to work with the stock or regular travel shock.
The linkage on the Honda as three basic pivot points from front to back- frame, shock, and swingarm. If you move the shock pivot closer to the frame the swingarm travels more. If you move the shock pivot closer to the swingarm it travels less. In either case a simple preload adjustment will correct the differance. Also the more travel or leverage applied to the the shock will make it less responsive (less rebound and compression) Both of witch the stock shock can compansate no problem. My overall ride hight is the same with a little more sag. And travel is increased by excactly 3.875" more.

[beatie]

This is an exaggerated example. Without an animated preview its hard to see whats happening but you can clearly see the linkage on the right travels more.

[beatie]

Polygon based prototype of yfz450, Very usefully for realizing almost anything you can dream up.

[beatie]

another render

[honda250xrider]

with that you just threw off the entire valving process, i would think that the stock shock and stock linkage would work better if set up right, you did just change the leverage ratio the whole geometery of what the stock linkage was. also your getting roughly about 12" of rear travel now, Im a little baffled on how you got that even with that lear linkage i cannot imagine you gaining almost 4 inches without increasing the shock length to compensate for the inceased stroke. Well as long as it rides better than stock then more props to you, im always down to learn a little about suspension setups

[400exrider707]

Although your calculations and drawing make sense, lets go back to the real world... Like I asked before if you did indeed change this...who did your shock work? The rebound on the stock setup was so far off, I don't see how you can say that it can compensate for such a drastic change. I applaud you on the nice job of the linkage, it looks top notch, and the drawings are pretty cool too, but Im still not persuaded. How did you figure the 3.875? Just a mathematical calculation? Will the shock shaft travel and the travel of the swingarm actually allow this much travel without binding anywhere? Have you rode this setup yet? Also the GT Thunder linkages are designed for a standard travel shock, and they are designed to lower the ride height. Keeping the ride height up at stock with a longer shock is pointless...this is why we have ZPS. If you have rode on this setup I would like your honest feedback on it. You seem like you have the theory down very good though... Thanks for you input.

[beatie]

Too-honda250xrider,
Right all i did was make it more "progressive" in other words, make the shock work more, or put more leverage on it in relation to the travel of the suspension. Trust me there was alot of "thats not going to work" or "back to the drawing board", but rip this thing over some woops or through the trails and you'll be sold hands down. I have plenty of testimonials, my freinds love them.

[beatie]

Too-400exrider707,
Like i said in the illustrations "this is an exaggerated example" not the accual geometry. Just to show the basic theory. The same is done on alot of suspention systems. Where you mount the front shock on the lower a-arm"closer of farther from the frame" changes the progession making it more or less responsive. Some atv companys are finally realizing this and know have multiple shock possition a-arms. Stadium trucks, even rc cars use mulltiple holes to compansate for differant types or racing or track conditions. ZPS???
It all depends on want you want the suspention to do. Having standard ride height with long travel shocks and suspension is excellent for GNCC. Landing big jumps and woops works great with that set-up as well. Track riding with relitively small jumps and tight turns wouldnt work. You need it to work fast and stiff not slow and plush.

[beatie]

Ive had this linkage on my 400 for more then a year with the stock shock and have done all sorts or riding. No binding or any clearance problems at all. Next time you work on your quad, any quad, try carefully disconecting the lower shock bolt and let the arm swing down. Any quad can hang down an extra few inches. You'll be supprized how far you can go before any clearance issues. Im accually thinking of rebuilding, revalving and changing the spring to a dual rate on the shock to get some sag. but i dont know yet if its worth the cost compared to just buying an elka. I cant imagine how it could be much of a noticable differance from stock, im telling you i wish i could let you take it for a ride and see for yourself. If your ever in Jersey:)

[bradley300]

as long as you have the a few measurments, gt thunder can rebuild that stock rear shock to work with your linkage

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by beatie
Ive had this linkage on my 400 for more then a year with the stock shock and have done all sorts or riding. No binding or any clearance problems at all. Next time you work on your quad, any quad, try carefully disconecting the lower shock bolt and let the arm swing down. Any quad can hang down an extra few inches. You'll be supprized how far you can go before any clearance issues. Im accually thinking of rebuilding, revalving and changing the spring to a dual rate on the shock to get some sag. but i dont know yet if its worth the cost compared to just buying an elka. I cant imagine how it could be much of a noticable differance from stock, im telling you i wish i could let you take it for a ride and see for yourself. If your ever in Jersey:)

I already have a GT Thunder linkage and revlaved shock and to date this is the best rear shock I've ridden on and that would include a long travel elka with a lonestar outlaw rear end.

So from what I understand is you changed everything about how the shock is being used, but did nothing to the shock? I seriously doubt that it rides as good as you "think" it does. Also I still am not seeing where you got 3.875 inches of more travel or whatever it is. Your drawing and your calculations make sense, but your linkage looks almost like stock mounting holes. I dont see gaining that much extra travel.... :ermm: Also if your idea of doing this is so great... why is it that not a single one of the shock manufacturers or suspension designers is making linkages like yours?

Moving the lower pivot bolt forward enuf to get another 4" of travel would DEFINITELY require revalving the stock shock - too much leverage.

In fact, I think the leverage would be so great, you'd need a 1" diameter plunger rod. Anything less would prolly bend. I highly doubt the stock plunger rod would survive.

Also, I don't think the stock shock has enuf preload adjustment room to get the rear end anywhere near stock height, with the lower shock bolt moved that far forward.

That's my guess anyway....

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Also if your idea of doing this is so great... why is it that not a single one of the shock manufacturers or suspension designers is making linkages like yours?

That's my question.

If he truly has figgered this all out, he needs to patent it and get it to market.

A 12" rear travel quad would be truly amazing.

Definitely cool pix and mind experiment tho.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by garandman
That's my question.

If he truly has figgered this all out, he needs to patent it and get it to market.

A 12" rear travel quad would be truly amazing.

Definitely cool pix and mind experiment tho.


His calculations show 3.875" of gained travel, but look at his linkage.... it doesn't look much different than stock. You would drastically have to change the location of the lower shock mount in order to gain this... and his does not look like it changed hardly at all.

[beatie]

If you know everything you'll never learn anything. Do or die if not to try. Im not feel'in the negitive tone here. I think you left a valve up your *** somewhere. Your thinking into it to much. And guess what, if you dont want to buy it, YOU DONT HAVE TOO!!! You act like im holding a knife to your neck and forcing you to bolt it on your quad. I greatly appreciate constructive criticism and take into consideration every coment made, but you wrongly assume to much, "who rebuilt your shock to match the link, how are you figuring 3-4" more travel, I seriously doubt that it rides as good as you "think" it does.
Nobody rebuilt my shock, a frigin tape measure, and yes it rides damm close as the same year 400ex with a long travel elka and elka linkage. It doesn't "pack" over woops "kick up" or kide sideways. She fly's true and strait. The only problem is endurace. Oil heats up.

[beatie]

O yea and thank you "bradley300" for the info and "usefull" comments, i think ill try that gt thunder rebuild on my stock pogo.

The picture above shows the stock link next to one of the one's i made. You can see the difference. The shock possition is 1.215 forward and .375 down. Actual shock travel divided by relitive link ratio(8, 6.785, 1.215)multiplied by length of swingarm= end travel. Do the math. If your such an expert (and you know who you are) you know what the travel of the stock shock is and you know how long the swingarm is. Tell me what you get smartass. Stop reading everybody else's books and write your own. I build and design shocks all day. All that valving does is make your adjustments more or less pronounced. Thats all, nothing more. Damm. Now, if you have any suggestions or something usefull to say im listening, im all ears, if you want to showoff im closing this thread.

[400exrider707]

Thats all I wanted to see was the pic of the side by side. At no point did I ever say I was going to purchase one or bolt anything on my quad, I was simply just trying to figure out where you were getting your numbers from. I bet you would like how it rides a LOT more if you got it revalved to match. Also I wouldn't compare it to an Elka if you want anyone to take you seriously because they are notorious for their bad valving. Also your oil is heating up because you added a lot more leverage on the shock, and are now over working it. Thanks for the explanation though on how your linkage works and your calculations.:cool:

[itismejoshy]

hey i will gladly "bolt one on my quad" and run it! then post how it feels, i have a stock shock and an alka valved for 187 pound me. plus about 5 miles of intense whoops that will kick any riders #$& by the end, but it's a great place to test ride different set-ups, hell i will even send your linkage back, or purchase one when you start to sell em, i just can't see paying $300+ for an alka linkage that you can make. i just want to try something new/better(i will pay shipping both ways). let me know!~josh

[mad440]

yeah bro, i'll run a prototype and give ya feedback, ive got a endless woop section know as railroad track service road and my stock rebuilt to PEP with stock linkage handles it pretty good, but could use a bit more travel...also what software are you using to do those renderings?

[beatie]

I might just have to do that for both of you. Some more feedback would be great. I'll spin up a couple and get back to both of you for an address. The software is autodesk 3dsMAX, mostly for visuals. I use Autocad for the prototypes and dimmensions.

[aaronqjones]

I would like to see how one would work on my Raptor 660 if you are interested. I could use it when I go to WV. F'ing bumpy as hell.

[itismejoshy]

ya man keep me posted! i will send ya paypal for shipping, send me a line when you get an extra.~josh

[beatie]

You got it. I would need a raptor to develope a linkage.

[Chino886]

Originally posted by beatie
You got it. I would need a raptor to develope a linkage.

Beatie,

I commend you on your accomplishment and your willingness to try something new!

There was a company, Rocky Ridge, quite some time back that I heard of doing something similar to what you are doing, although they did it will the top shock mount! They relocated the top shock mount on the 400EX to achieve what most do with an aftermarket link.

If you need a test pilot for a 06 450R or any measurements, let me know, I will be glad to get some numbers for you.

Chino886

[atvrider23054]

Yea, it all sounds like a good idea. I just want to know how everyone likes it.

[DF400ex]

Originally posted by beatie
I might just have to do that for both of you. Some more feedback would be great. I'll spin up a couple and get back to both of you for an address. The software is autodesk 3dsMAX, mostly for visuals. I use Autocad for the prototypes and dimmensions.

Well I'm going to send my stock rear out to GT Thunder next week or so for a re-valve and stuff. If you give me one I'll send them the correct specs so they can re-valve it to both my weight and your linkage. That way you can have some good feedback about it when the stock is set up for it. PM me if you're interested.

[LS@GtThunder]

I just saw this thread and love it.

I always love to see people try things for themselves.

I also love to see a good discussion as everyone invloved can learn from it.

I have tested with a few link designs over the last few years and will gladly share any good and bad experiances I have seen in the process. I am constantly learning more about suspension and have had the privilage of getting solid feed back from some very good riders. I am constantly updating various link designs I have based on things I learn from constant testing.

Feel free to ask any question you may have.

I first started with linkage design in an effort to get more wheel travel and a lower ride height on a 400EX I was testing at the time.

The first link I bought helped but did not get what I was looking for. I then built dozens of test links till I had what I wanted.

Several things that various link designs can do

1. Change leverage ratio and thereby add wheel travel.

2. Change progression ratio - thereby changing how fast the suspension stiffens as the rear wheels move up toward the quad.

3. Change where the travel is thereby effecting both ride height and how far the wheels trravel in either direction.

[DF400ex]

Originally posted by LS@GtThunder
I just saw this thread and love it.

I always love to see people try things for themselves.

I also love to see a good discussion as everyone invloved can learn from it.

I have tested with a few link designs over the last few years and will gladly share any good and bad experiances I have seen in the process. I am constantly learning more about suspension and have had the privilage of getting solid feed back from some very good riders. I am constantly updating various link designs I have based on things I learn from constant testing.

Feel free to ask any question you may have.

I first started with linkage design in an effort to get more wheel travel and a lower ride height on a 400EX I was testing at the time.

The first link I bought helped but did not get what I was looking for. I then built dozens of test links till I had what I wanted.

Several things that various link designs can do

1. Change leverage ratio and thereby add wheel travel.

2. Change progression ratio - thereby changing how fast the suspension stiffens as the rear wheels move up toward the quad.

3. Change where the travel is thereby effecting both ride height and how far the wheels trravel in either direction.


pm sent

[bradley300]

always good to have your opinions on this site also laz, thanks for the input:)

[gumby2461]

lol joe its shiraz from up the street, whenever my lil bro gets a 400ex were running ur setup and since i already no its kicks ***** i will give u 2 thumbs up. nice i like when tempers flair.

[400exrider707]

Any update on this linkage?? Im wondering if this ever went anywhere?:confused:

[beatie]

Hey everyone, sorry for the delayed responce. Ive since been working with a local machine shop to mass produce this linkage and other certain items i want to distribute. Ive been doing alot of gncc and cross country testing or abusing as i like to call it. Besides the few trees and one very tough guard rail ive become "one" with, the linkage is 100%. Ive found it works the same on the trx450 as well. Bolts right on. Ive also been doing alot of mx racing at Engishtown, N.J. to see how it fairs on the track. Big jumps and narley woops, SWEET!! My endurance as gone way up and can hold on alot longer. Ill be sure and let you know when there availlable and will be giving some away free to a few select posters for some feedback, positive or negative. Also, here is a video i made of some friends and me riding track and hillclimbs and stuff. Enjoy!http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=joe+biank