Questions on re-selling frames

[Pappy]

I have a few 450R frames that were replaced under the Honda warranty program. The owners of these frames are 100% legit ( I just coated thier replacement frames)

The issue I have is that the replacement frames come with absolutley no VIN numbers. That I geuss could be explained if there were an issue involving ownership of the frame, but what about the VIN on the frames that need repair? I wont remove a VIN plate, but I also feel sanding it off or leaving it on could lead to issues. Taking it off could eaily land someone in trouble if they used the frame and had to explain why the number has been altered etc, leaving it on could cause issues because the VIN is titled to someone other then the purchaser etc.

These frames are not bad, simple cracks and a gusset kit will have them ready for use, but I just dont feel right about trying to sell them without some proper resolution to the VIN number issue.

Any advice?

[TheFontMaster]

I would say the best use for them would just be a backup frame for yourself, or the owner of the frame.

The only other thing I can think of is that mainly the vin is for registration, and inshurance reasons. Would someone racing need to have a vin number since they wouldn't be registering, or inshuring the quad? Are there any rules that require the vin in racing?

[Pappy]

not that i am aware of.

i was browsing ebay when i came across a 400ex frame that had no vin plate nad it stated so in the auction (said he used it on another frame?) so i got to thinking etc

the back up i concur with, but just like everyone else, everyone is looking to sell what they dont need at the time for a few extra bucks etc.

removing them would be legal I suppose, but IMO doesnt really come off right to buyers. when the new frames arrive with no vin how are folks transfering the numbers to the new frame? i am sure most folks that are not in the know either turn thiers in to the dealer handling the warranty or throw them in the garbage:confused:

[cop292]

Pappy,

You can probably re-use the frames and get a new vin assigned to them. I know that you could do that here in Ohio, Im not sure about WV. If you are interested, shoot me a PM and I will give you the lowdown on how to do it legally.

[Pappy]

in wv we are not required to title our quads, but i know other states are.

todd, send over the info, i may never sell one but the info would be handy if anyone ever asked. (btw, i would never inform anyone i didnt fully trust on how to do it, because i know enough of the criminal element is always looking for ways to get around the law etc)

[Quad18star]

Call the registration office and explain to them the situation ... I'm sure there is something they can do about it. How do the aftermarket companies do it ?? Don't they just stamp their own numbers ???

[1fst400]

what do the aftermarket frame companies do?

Just do the same thing.

[jrspawn]

Pappy, how are you getting the replacement frames? Anytime we go through that our dealers demand the old frame to be returned/disabled. they require at least the front portion of frame cut off with the vin on it. We were told this was direct from honda. We've had this happen at several dealerships, and i even believe kellner's also. Its crazy also, because in DE quads arent required to be titled, so would think it wouldnt matter, its probably just a money racket though.

Justin

[Rich250RRacer]

Are they coming with a sticker that shows the original VIN and states that it is a replacement chassis? Honda replaced the chassis on my 2000 400EX when it was a month old and it had one of these stickers on it.

[tamehart]

Pappy, The only concern that came across my mind is that the Production Classes require the use of a stock frame, not that anyone would really know or protest, but how would they tell it would be a stock frame without a Vin from Honda??? Just thinking out loud. If not, I would just fab a new piece.

[Pappy]

not sure how some are keeping the frames.

i dont know about the stickers, i havent seen any on the ones i have coated but the owner could have removed

[cop292]

The aftermarket companies are registered as builders or manufacturers, thus they can stamp the frames with id numbers. They keep track of the numbers and provide them to the appropriate agency.

[wilkin250r]

I'm with Justin (jrspawn) on this one.

Is there a legal obligation to destroy or disable the old frame? Or somehow transfer the VIN number to the new frame? And what about the existing title, since it now refers to a VIN number on an old frame? Does a new title need to be issued? If you are the one replacing the frames, can you be held accountable if any problems arise with ownership and VIN number complications?

I can't imagine Honda supplying replacement frames without somehow making provisions for the LEGAL aspect of it all.

We all know that it doesn't really affect the practical usage, since they aren't registered or insured. But if you are concerned about being fully compliant, this sounds like an issue you need to take up with the lawyers at Honda.

[y3llow400ex]

i just bought a new frame from honda. my dealership is having my vin stamped into the new frame. the lady that sold me my frame said something about last time she sold a frame they needed a peice of the old one. there is no way im cutting up my old frame, i was going to try and have it fixed eventualy

[brandon34r]

when I broke the one mount off my 450r frame I went and bought a new OEM Honda replacement from Motosport.com and it was around 300 bucks cheaper for the frame and subframe than through Honda.I had to tell the guy over the phone my VIN number so they could put it on my new one,only thing is all they did was print it on a sticker and slap it on.From washing it and waht not the sticker is almost coming off.My frame can easliy be fixed but I figured i might as well buy a backup and get the stock one powdercoated and fixed.One I do that I will have a frame with no VIN on it and I too was wondering how I could go about and sell it.So please if you guys PM'ed pappy for the legal way,please inform me as well.

[firefighterjosh]

I would think you just stamp the old vin numbers onto the new frame. Thats what wwe had to do with are trailer.

[wishmasstir]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
I would think you just stamp the old vin numbers onto the new frame. Thats what wwe had to do with are trailer.

that would just take care of the new frame though, what about the original? i would hope that it wouldnt need destroyed. i built my 250r from the frame up with an arens frame and it doesnt have ANY numbers on it at all to get it titled.

[gbcap]

if you sell the frame document where you got it and that your selling the frame with x vin on it.

when we sell car parts that have the vin's stamped on them somewhere we just put it on the invoice and that way if they ever get questioned they have proof of where they got it.

i don't understand why the title should have to follow the frame on the bike...your telling me if i replace my stocker with an LSR frame i can't sell my other frame without the title? BS..i can do with what i please. you can sell EVERYthing else on the bike with no problem.

i would leave the vin on there incase someone questioned it and you can prove who you got it from. at the same time you can get a new vin assigned to bikes that have been custom built. if you cut it off you can always say the plate was damaged and you could repair everything else but the number was comprimised and you couldn't fix it.

[bradley300]

when i bought a new frame for my blaster, it didnt come with any kind of ID, no vin, no paperwork. my geuss is you could ask honda for a new vin, but in WV and KY, you dont register the quad anyway so its not a big deal. if you want insurance, i was able to explain the situation and gave the agent every vin i could find on the rest of the quad. think there was one on the crankcase and cylinder

[K_Fulk]

I think that may just be a Yamaha thing. When I bought a new yfz frame it came the same way.

[cop292]

Originally posted by gbcap

i don't understand why the title should have to follow the frame on the bike...your telling me if i replace my stocker with an LSR frame i can't sell my other frame without the title? BS..i can do with what i please. you can sell EVERYthing else on the bike with no problem.

i would leave the vin on there incase someone questioned it and you can prove who you got it from. at the same time you can get a new vin assigned to bikes that have been custom built. if you cut it off you can always say the plate was damaged and you could repair everything else but the number was comprimised and you couldn't fix it. [/B]

In some states it is a law that the title stays with the frame or chassis. So yes, if you are in one of those states and switched frames on a 450R the title would go with the frame. Your new build on the LSR frame would have to be inspected and wouldnt be considered a Honda on the new title. It would be titled as a LSR or "assembled" . I know a lot of manufacturers require dealers to send the old vin back for destruction. For example if you need to replace a Harley frame because of an accident or damage, the new frame will have the same vin as the old one. If the dealer doesn't return the neck of the frame with the vin, they get fined.

[gbcap]

i guess its going to matter per state. most people that would buy a frame off you aren't going to worry about a title anyway.

ill buy every frame you have, gusseted, coated and ready to go for $5 a peice. hows that sound...then you don't have to deal with it ken!

[Pappy]

$5 each, id hang on to them for the scrap yard:p


Thanks for all the advice folks, I always put integrity and honestly before profitability so I wanted to try and clarify my questions prioir to agreeing to either buy the frames for resale etc.

[gbcap]

Originally posted by Pappy
$5 each, id hang on to them for the scrap yard:p


Thanks for all the advice folks, I always put integrity and honestly before profitability so I wanted to try and clarify my questions prioir to agreeing to either buy the frames for resale etc.

but i AM a scrap yard...

[trick250r]

grind the vin off and sell it as a BK performance product with the gusset kits and everything. thats what i would do.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by gbcap
but i AM a scrap yard...

lol, i know:blah:

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by gbcap
i don't understand why the title should have to follow the frame on the bike...your telling me if i replace my stocker with an LSR frame i can't sell my other frame without the title? BS..i can do with what i please. you can sell EVERYthing else on the bike with no problem.


It started as a car thing. Think about it, you cannot title an assembly, because some components of that assembly might change. Do you want to get a new title every time you change the tires? The only real solution is to have a major component hold the title. That way, you can replace peripheral componets without a new title.

The engine bock or the frame are the only logical choices. And it's a big deal for cars, because they DO need to be registered and insured. So following the footsteps of the cars, the frame holds the title on motorcycles.

[derekhonda]

I didn't read everyones response, but I bought a fourwheeler with a new honda frame on it. The seller bent the frame a wee bit and had it replaced. But....he wanted to keep the original frame for a build up he was planning. Before i handed over the cash, we took up the old frame to the police station along with the whole fourwheeler, and i had them run the vins and give me a statement (for the lack of a better word) that showed the fourwheeler was not stolen, just had the frame replace. I wanted that incase I wanted to resell it later. They also gave me a piece of paper on how to get a new vin number from the bmv, but i never filled it out.

When you think about it, the people who build their own motorcycles (kind of like oc chopper style) they have to get a vin somewhere, you just have to apply for it and prove you didn't steal it basically or grind off the old vin.

[gbcap]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
It started as a car thing. Think about it, you cannot title an assembly, because some components of that assembly might change. Do you want to get a new title every time you change the tires? The only real solution is to have a major component hold the title. That way, you can replace peripheral componets without a new title.

The engine bock or the frame are the only logical choices. And it's a big deal for cars, because they DO need to be registered and insured. So following the footsteps of the cars, the frame holds the title on motorcycles.

but the title doesn't follow the frame on a car...haha. it follows the assembly. but it is way different on a car. your not changint the fenders every season. and the suspension normally stays stock and whatnot.

i understand why they vin the frame...but that shoudln't mean that a frame is usless if you replace it with a new one.

[eastside 400]

if you have any 04-05 450r frames for sale let me know

[Architects]

when I had honda replace my frame the frame came with no vin. They then stamped the same vin that was on my old frame on it. Sucks because they went through that sweet powdercoating you did!:mad:

[Pappy]

I would have had them stamp my forehead before i let them stamp my pc work:eek:

[Architects]

Yah I was pissed when I saw it. I didn't know they were going to do that.

After you powder coat your frame you can't see the VIN numbers any more anyway!

In the firearms world, if you destroy a serial number bearing receiver, you can get that same serial number placed on a new from the manufacturer replacement receiver. But the old receiver has to be rendered inoperable.

I suspect you'll want to check with DMV re: VIN numbers.

Good luck.

[Creech52]

This seems a little too simple, but why not just give the purchaser a notarized bill of sale stating that the frame isnt stolen, just include the VIN, and the original owners signature, and also your signature as the seller. If something happens and the new owner is questioned they just have to produce the bill of sale, and its legit. The cops would probably leave well enough alone seeing that the frame with the VIN is not in their database as being reported stolen. Lastly as long as the person with frame isnt doing something illegal with the bike there should be no reason for anyone to check the VIN.