elka ride height softer/stiffer

[banshee84]

My gf has these elka shocks that were built for her +3 arms on her blaster. She also has offset rims on it soher front end is 4" wider than stock on each side. The shocke came like this: (The ride height is at the top)
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g137/broncogurl351/Other%20Quad%20Riding%20Pics/100_3766.jpg

My question is this: Will lowering the ride height make the shocks stiffer (which is what I want to do). Also will it make a noticeable difference in stiffness? I would just try it bought I don't have them with me, but I will tommorow and would like some advice

[bradley300]

in that picture they are as soft as they will go, so they can only get stiffer. dont worry about stiffining the shocks, just set the ride height per elka's specs and if they are valving right, the stiffness will work its self out once the ride hieght is correct

[banshee84]

Originally posted by bradley300
in that picture they are as soft as they will go, so they can only get stiffer. dont worry about stiffining the shocks, just set the ride height per elka's specs and if they are valving right, the stiffness will work its self out once the ride hieght is correct

So, they will get stiffer if I lower it a little, thanks.

[1fst400]

by the way. wheel spacers do NOT change how the shock valving works. You could have a mile long spacer, and as long as the spindle stays in the same spot the shock will work the same. Its hard to grasp at first, I dident believe it. but its true.


I would say to go doun with the collar like an inch and work form there. Like bradley said, the spring preload is more just to set the ride height.

[sammy5x]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1fst400
[B]by the way. wheel spacers do NOT change how the shock valving works. You could have a mile long spacer, and as long as the spindle stays in the same spot the shock will work the same. Its hard to grasp at first, I dident believe it. but its true.

This is incorrect. It does not matter how you space the wheel out from the frame, it is where the tire contacts the ground that supplies the leverage on the shock. The placement and position of the spindle has nothing to do with the motion ratio and travel path of the shock. The upper shock mounts, lower shock mounts, and the a-arm mounts are all fixed points. Again, the ground contacts the tire, not the spindle. That is basic geometry and math. Wheel spacers are never a good idea as they put too much stress on spindles as does the old fashioned rim flip. The benefits of a wider stance get cancelled out from the amount of mechanical bump steer that is introduced.

[Pappy]

hey bradley, do you remeber that thread from like 4 years ago that went out of control on this issue...lmfao

[bradley300]

yeh, only about 14 pages and i still dont think a professional shock guru confirmed either way. might have to look that one up

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Pappy
hey bradley, do you remeber that thread from like 4 years ago that went out of control on this issue...lmfao

I remember a few of them off hand... Im not sure if I was here yet or not for the 14 page one though!!!:eek2:

I would say search the topic but I think bradley is right, I dont think anyone was ever fully convinced.

[sammy5x]

Originally posted by bradley300
yeh, only about 14 pages and i still dont think a professional shock guru confirmed either way. might have to look that one up

I have been an Elka Suspension R&D engineer for over 7 years.

[bradley300]

Originally posted by sammy5x
I have been an Elka Suspension R&D engineer for over 7 years.

we got 2 different answers from elka:confused:

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by bradley300
we got 2 different answers from elka:confused:

I cant wait to hear this, please show me the two ansers!!!!

[bradley300]

let me see if i can find it

[Pappy]

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69982&perpage=20&highlight=ratio&pagenumber=1

what a read:p

[bradley300]

page 9 of pappy's link 2nd post i think (jeff@quadshop post) that the offset does change the effect. it MAY have gotten deleted, but i swear gabe called elka, explained his experiement and elka said offset does NOT change the effect. i'm still looking for that post tho, it may be in a different thread

[bwamos]

LoL, not this debate again.

Instead of typing up a 500 word essay.. I'll just throw up an AutoCAD drawing. As they say a Picture is worth a thousand words.

[bradley300]

i cant find that post, but i know it was there, but i geuss i could be crazy

[Pappy]

Originally posted by bradley300
i cant find that post, but i know it was there, but i geuss i could be crazy

jeff called from elka and stated what they told him, but he wasnt able to post it during his trip to elka.

lol, looking back, that bickering was tame by todays standards..lmao

[bwamos]

Yep.
Here's an added illustration (to compare to the other 2) on why the extending a-arms does change the leverage ratio of the the a-arm/shock system.

Same vertical motion, less movement of the shock = more load on the shock.

This ratio also has a side effect of giving you more vertical wheel travel whith the same shock travel capacity. (excluding ball joint limitations of course.)

Leverage ratio on the origional & the +3 spacers = 15:12 or 1.25:1
Leverage ratio on the +3 arms = 18:12 or 1.5:1 A 20% increase in leverage against the shock, and why they feel softer on longer a-arms.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by bwamos
Yep.
Here's an added illustration (to compare to the other 2) on why the extending a-arms does change the leverage ratio of the the a-arm/shock system.

Same vertical motion, less movement of the shock = more load on the shock.

This ratio also has a side effect of giving you more vertical wheel travel whith the same shock travel capacity. (excluding ball joint limitations of course.)

Leverage ratio on the origional & the +3 spacers = 15:12 or 1.25:1
Leverage ratio on the +3 arms = 18:12 or 1.5:1 A 20% increase in leverage against the shock, and why they feel softer on longer a-arms.




Your missing the whole picture...... That is for extended arms.... With wheel spacers you are NOT extending your arms. It is still applying all of the force to the exact same point where it connects to the spindle. The arm length has NOT changed. You cant simply add the length of the spacer to the arm length. It does not work this way.


Theoretically you could just add a mile long spacer and not change the shock leverage ratio, but at some point physics will kick in and your unsprung weight and the sheer size of the spacer will effect the shock, but not like you are saying.

[TBD]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Your missing the whole picture...... That is for extended arms.... With wheel spacers you are NOT extending your arms. It is still applying all of the force to the exact same point where it connects to the spindle. The arm length has NOT changed. You cant simply add the length of the spacer to the arm length. It does not work this way.


Theoretically you could just add a mile long spacer and not change the shock leverage ratio, but at some point physics will kick in and your unsprung weight and the sheer size of the spacer will effect the shock, but not like you are saying.

When leverage or motion ratios are taken you only consider where the arm pivots at. It pivots at the frame and the spindle. So you are correct in that statement but when it comes down to the facts by moving the tire further out it does change the leverage against the shock.

[gotwarrior]

So if my tires are bowed out at the top.. (the wrong way) I need to make the shocks stiffer?

Here is what my shocks are set at.. I have adjusted them at all. They are in the middle. What do I need to do?

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by TBD
When leverage or motion ratios are taken you only consider where the arm pivots at. It pivots at the frame and the spindle. So you are correct in that statement but when it comes down to the facts by moving the tire further out it does change the leverage against the shock.

You just contradicted yourself in one sentence.

When leverage or motion ratios are taken you only consider where the arm pivots at.

moving the tire further out it does change the leverage against the shock.

I get what your saying. This is why I said theoretically it shouldn't make a difference because the shock doesn't "see" the spacer because of the pivot points. It however does add leverage but by no means does it add it w/ bwamos calculation.

[TBD]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
You just contradicted yourself in one sentence.

When leverage or motion ratios are taken you only consider where the arm pivots at.

moving the tire further out it does change the leverage against the shock.

I get what your saying. This is why I said theoretically it shouldn't make a difference because the shock doesn't "see" the spacer because of the pivot points. It however does add leverage but by no means does it add it w/ bwamos calculation.
I agree. I hadn't noticed that I did that but thanks. I'm not sure how accurate his calculations are but he does have the basics right. The leverage ratios that he listed seem a little bit off but I couldn't say without doing the math myself.

[TBD]

Originally posted by gotwarrior
So if my tires are bowed out at the tire.. (the wrong way) to make the shock softer??

Here is what my shocks are set at.. I have adjusted them at all. They are in the middle. What do I need to do?
With out knowing all of the specifics (spring rates, amount of crossovers, your wieght or the length of the arms and shock mount positioning I would only be able to guess at it.
What do you mean by tires bieng bowed out?

[400exrider707]

hahaha I was gonna wait for somone else to take a stab cause I have no idea what this person is saying

[bwamos]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Your missing the whole picture...... That is for extended arms.... With wheel spacers you are NOT extending your arms. It is still applying all of the force to the exact same point where it connects to the spindle. The arm length has NOT changed. You cant simply add the length of the spacer to the arm length. It does not work this way.


Theoretically you could just add a mile long spacer and not change the shock leverage ratio, but at some point physics will kick in and your unsprung weight and the sheer size of the spacer will effect the shock, but not like you are saying.


Umm... I'm agreeing with you.. LOL :D :blah: :D


See the illustration at the very bottom of the 1st page.

Leverage ratio between the non-spacer and the 3" spacer are identical.
2nd post was just to illustrate why extended a-arms do change the leverage ratios in comparison.

Oh and my ratio was simply the ratio between the Fulcrum (inner joint), effort (outer balljoint at the spindle), and load points (lower shock mount).

F1D1 = F2D2

With 12" to the shock and 15" to the ball joint.. applying 100lbs of pressure at the wheel puts 125lbs of pressure at the lower shock mount.

This does not change wether or not you have a wheel spacer.

With 12" to shock and 18" to the ball joint, applying 100lbs of pressure transfers 150lbs of pressure to the shock.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by bwamos
Umm... I'm agreeing with you.. LOL :D :blah: :D


See the illustration at the very bottom of the 1st page.

Leverage ratio between the non-spacer and the 3" spacer are identical.
2nd post was just to illustrate why extended a-arms do change the leverage ratios in comparison.


hahaha sorry, I must have had my head up my ..... oh man. Now when I hear people say its been a long day at work...I know what they're talking about. hahaha oh man, sorry about that.


Yes everybody please refer to the pictures that I said were wrong before because they are right!!!


DOH!

[bwamos]

No worries.. lol. ;)

[banshee84]

I tightened the collar on the shocks and the ride height went up and the shocks got stiffer. I am glad it worked out because the front of the frame was only about 6.5 inches off the ground with the rider on it. Now it is sitting at aboout 8" and the body roll in the corners isn't an issue anymore

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by banshee84
I tightened the collar on the shocks and the ride height went up and the shocks got stiffer. I am glad it worked out because the front of the frame was only about 6.5 inches off the ground with the rider on it. Now it is sitting at aboout 8" and the body roll in the corners isn't an issue anymore

Good deal, glad it worked out for you, sorry about hijacking the thread. Glad your problem is worked out.

[banshee84]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Good deal, glad it worked out for you, sorry about hijacking the thread. Glad your problem is worked out.

Yeah I don;t car about the hijacking cause you guys already answered my question. I have ordered three sets of elkas now and I don;t know why the collars on these ones came at the top causing the bike to sit really low and soft. All three sets were built for mx and an intermediate rider.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by banshee84
Yeah I don;t car about the hijacking cause you guys already answered my question. I have ordered three sets of elkas now and I don;t know why the collars on these ones came at the top causing the bike to sit really low and soft. All three sets were built for mx and an intermediate rider.

The collar is just an adjustment point. They do not come "setup" You should adjust any and every new shock you put on your quad. Sure they are valved and sprung for your weight, but ultimately you are responsible for setting them up correctly. There is no way elka could possibly set up the shock for your bike without it being on the bike!