Locked up.......

[Punk'd]

What a great day.. Drove 1 hour to go riding and then this.......

Well I went riding for about 15mins and all of a sudden it shut off. So I thought ah.. my fault. Started it back up and was fine for 5mins then shut off again. Put it in nuetrual think just to make sure its not rider error and kick it one last time starts and dies.

Well now the kicker is locked up and will not budge. I have no idea what this could be. Im breaking it down now.

Any ideas?? I hope its not crank issues (its a 04):eek:

[ghott]

Maybe a crank bearing issue....

Maybe dropped a valve?

Piston shattered into a million pieces?

Cam Timing jumped a tooth...all down hill from there?

Could be a million different things...

Open her up and let us know! Good luck man!

[Punk'd]

Well I got the valve cover and valve block off. Piston looks fine.

I noticed when I was pulling the valve cover off there were metal shavings EVERYWHERE!:mad:


I wasnt even moving when it locked up so lets hope damage is as low as it gets in this kind of situation.

Any ideas on what new things ill need to fix this crap?

Thanks guys.

[ss440ex]

Can you show pics of the area where the shaving were found??
Were you still using the Pennsoil ?
Plz keep up dated.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by ss440ex
Can you show pics of the area where the shaving were found??
Were you still using the Pennsoil ?
Plz keep up dated.

Shavings were found EVERYWHERE. All over the cam, valve springs, cam chain. Thats as far as im tearing it down. Im going to take it somewhere.

And no, I was using Amsoil.

Has this happened to you?

[crazymgtnut]

What year is it? Decprsion spring inside the valve cover broke if its a 04-05 my buddy has went thro 3 or 4 of them just a $6 part that sucks.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by crazymgtnut
What year is it? Decprsion spring inside the valve cover broke if its a 04-05 my buddy has went thro 3 or 4 of them just a $6 part that sucks.

??

Crank, not the cam.

[Punk'd]

Does anyone know if theres a updated stock replacement crank?

Also if you have the part number that would help me greatly.

Thanks

[Architects]

Check this thread out. Good luck!

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263590

[N300exJ]

Id put money on crank failure. Just get a hot rods heavy duty crank and make sure you flush out the engine and anything to do with oil really good.

Did you take out the oil filter? Im sure it was full of shavings.

[Architects]

Yes make sure you flush that oil cooler very very well. Id just replace it personally.

[N300exJ]

good point i did replace my oil cooler with a new one and get a new oil pump as well. The shavings get in the gears of the pump. not good stuff.

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by N300exJ
Id put money on crank failure.


Me too

[ricks450]

Originally posted by Punk'd
Well I got the valve cover and valve block off. Piston looks fine.

I noticed when I was pulling the valve cover off there were metal shavings EVERYWHERE!:mad:


I wasnt even moving when it locked up so lets hope damage is as low as it gets in this kind of situation.

Any ideas on what new things ill need to fix this crap?

Thanks guys. that sucks mine has the same problem. i tor my bike down and crank was bad. ill bet your lower rod bearing broke. i know this sucks. it can get alittle pricey. $1300 for me. plus i got the edalbrock carb. so $1800. hope you have better luck then i did.

[Sjorge450R]

damn, chad you gotta get that collar made so this doesnt happen to anyone else. I sure as hell dont want this to happen to me. Since now I have the rekluse, I would have to tear my entire clutch apart and install the clutch back to stock in order to take it in for warrenty work, and my luck, they would notice the clutch cover having the one molding mark ground off :(

[atv450rrich]

I went out to ride yesterday like I always do and it was in the low 40s. I started the 450r TRX that I have and it stalled after like ten seconds of idling. Now have the same issues where the darn kickstarter is stuck and will not budge.

I am hoping I am not running into some costly repairs? One of the Honda shops here told me I could run two stroke transmission oil on my four stroke? I kept asking if this was true? I bought two stroke, oil and found when I got home it was not four stroke. Took back the oil to Honda and they kept stating the two stroke oil would be fine.

Anyone ever run into this with these two types of oils? Anyways I am looking to see about tearing down the parts now to see what the heck is going on with the starter.

Thank you,
Rich

[Punk'd]

Where is everyone buying Hondas updated crank? And how much around are they?

[MAD450r]

Your R is an 94 correct? About how many hours you have on it. I have an 04 myself and im about at 200 hours on it so I was curious if you think I should tear into it, or just keep riding. I am still under warrenty so I never opened the motor myself.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by MAD450r
Your R is an 94 correct? About how many hours you have on it. I have an 04 myself and im about at 200 hours on it so I was curious if you think I should tear into it, or just keep riding. I am still under warrenty so I never opened the motor myself.

Mines an 04, Got it right when they came out so about 3 years?

Im not sure on hours sorry bro.

Id deff replace it before it goes out, it may cause more damage.

Mine went while idleing and im pretty sure it could have been 10 times worse if I was reving in high rpms:eek2:

Originally posted by atv450rrich
I went out to ride yesterday like I always do and it was in the low 40s. I started the 450r TRX that I have and it stalled after like ten seconds of idling. Now have the same issues where the darn kickstarter is stuck and will not budge.

I am hoping I am not running into some costly repairs? One of the Honda shops here told me I could run two stroke transmission oil on my four stroke? I kept asking if this was true? I bought two stroke, oil and found when I got home it was not four stroke. Took back the oil to Honda and they kept stating the two stroke oil would be fine.

Anyone ever run into this with these two types of oils? Anyways I am looking to see about tearing down the parts now to see what the heck is going on with the starter.

Thank you,
Rich

The oil they are referring to is for the transmission only. It is gear lubicant. It isn't for the motor side.

[atv450rrich]

Mine is a 2005 and yes the oil I bought for two stroke but used for my 4 stroke is transmission. The HP Pro Honda stuff. Is this fine to use? Any ideas or suggestions as to whay my kickstarter is stuck now?

Regards,
Rich

[ricks450]

Originally posted by Punk'd
Mines an 04, Got it right when they came out so about 3 years?

Im not sure on hours sorry bro.

Id deff replace it before it goes out, it may cause more damage.

Mine went while idleing and im pretty sure it could have been 10 times worse if I was reving in high rpms:eek2: mine went out at top end (WIDE OPEN). it ruined my top end. sence yours went out idleing your top end is porbably fine. mine did the samething as yours it froze up. then it freed up so i started it again then it ran for about a min. then shut back off and froze up. i took it apart and took the rod and turned it and it would turn then lock up. then i noticed the lower rod bearing broke. it was binding up. sence you said the piston look fine. the cylinder wasnt scarrred was it? if not your lucking compared to me. the factory crank with new bearing is right at $300. plus $20 for the ball bearing.

[ricks450]

Originally posted by Punk'd
Mines an 04, Got it right when they came out so about 3 years?

Im not sure on hours sorry bro.

Id deff replace it before it goes out, it may cause more damage.

Mine went while idleing and im pretty sure it could have been 10 times worse if I was reving in high rpms:eek2: mine went out at top end (WIDE OPEN). it ruined my top end. sence yours went out idleing your top end is porbably fine. mine did the samething as yours it froze up. then it freed up so i started it again then it ran for about a min. then shut back off and froze up. i took it apart and took the rod and turned it and it would turn then lock up. then i noticed the lower rod bearing broke. it was binding up. sence you said the piston look fine. the cylinder wasnt scarrred was it? if not your lucking compared to me. the factory crank with new bearing is right at $300. plus $20 for the ball bearing.

[ricks450]

Originally posted by Punk'd
Mines an 04, Got it right when they came out so about 3 years?

Im not sure on hours sorry bro.

Id deff replace it before it goes out, it may cause more damage.

Mine went while idleing and im pretty sure it could have been 10 times worse if I was reving in high rpms:eek2: mine went out at top end (WIDE OPEN). it ruined my top end. sence yours went out idleing your top end is porbably fine. mine did the samething as yours it froze up. then it freed up so i started it again then it ran for about a min. then shut back off and froze up. i took it apart and took the rod and turned it and it would turn then lock up. then i noticed the lower rod bearing broke. it was binding up. sence you said the piston look fine. the cylinder wasnt scarrred was it? if not your lucking compared to me. the factory crank with new bearing is right at $300. plus $20 for the ball bearing.

[ricks450]

what just happened it posted 3 times.:confused:

[atv450rrich]

Thank you for all your replies, everyone. I am going to try and pull it with my truck and have a friend try and start it. Anyone have luck doing this? Also going to see if the back tires move while the back end is lifted up.

Please continue to post and let me know what else you find. I have not taken mine apart yet, as I am trying to get familiar with the service manual.

Rich

[EASTHILL]

Originally posted by atv450rrich
Thank you for all your replies, everyone. I am going to try and pull it with my truck and have a friend try and start it. Anyone have luck doing this? Also going to see if the back tires move while the back end is lifted up.

Please continue to post and let me know what else you find. I have not taken mine apart yet, as I am trying to get familiar with the service manual.

Rich :eek2:

[EASTHILL]

Originally posted by atv450rrich
Thank you for all your replies, everyone. I am going to try and pull it with my truck and have a friend try and start it. Anyone have luck doing this? Also going to see if the back tires move while the back end is lifted up.

Please continue to post and let me know what else you find. I have not taken mine apart yet, as I am trying to get familiar with the service manual.

Rich :eek2:
Dont force anything!!!!!
Break it down and carefully inspect the trouble area.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by atv450rrich
Thank you for all your replies, everyone. I am going to try and pull it with my truck and have a friend try and start it. Anyone have luck doing this? Also going to see if the back tires move while the back end is lifted up.

Please continue to post and let me know what else you find. I have not taken mine apart yet, as I am trying to get familiar with the service manual.

Rich

WOW.. dude your going to mess it up more. Dont try and pop start it if your kicker is frozen!!!

[ricks450]

dude its your crank i can almost guarantee you. do not pull start your bike. your bike freezing up on a idle. you do not get any more luck then that. if you try to start it say good by to just needing a crank. your motor is full metal thats not good for anything in that motor. just changing the oil isnt going to get it out neither, you need to open it up to get it out. starting your motor can go from $400 to $1500 real quick. :huh :eek2: :scary:

[atv450rrich]

Originally posted by ricks450
dude its your crank i can almost guarantee you. do not pull start your bike. your bike freezing up on a idle. you do not get any more luck then that. if you try to start it say good by to just needing a crank. your motor is full metal thats not good for anything in that motor. just changing the oil isnt going to get it out neither, you need to open it up to get it out. starting your motor can go from $400 to $1500 real quick. :huh :eek2: :scary:


Cool, thanks. It is common and why would this happen on an '05 trx? I have been so nervous and freaking out over the outcome. I am not going to pop start it either.

I was thinking maybe it was a vapor lock for not thinking and using the throttle, when cold a couple of times before starting?

It must be the crank, you know more than I do and I appreciate your help. Would using two stroke hp transmission oil (poured into correct location), cause any issues? People have told me the 450r/250r are the only two exceptions?

I have been meaning to change this oil, which as far as I know has only been used once. When my buddy owned it for the year or so, he never did any maintenance on it. Total hours since he's owned it are very few, right below 50 hours or less I believe.

Need to mention I have also been running the 10 40 chevron oil. Only used once and only because that is all I had at the time when learning to change the fluids myself. I have been meaning to change out both fluids, but since only very few weekend hours (max 2.5 to 6 hours), since I've owned it. Thought it would be fine. Now the lockup after stalling in idle.

Sounds like I am lucky this didn't happen while wide open. Damn. These are Hondas. I am confused as to why the issues?

I know tearing it down will help a lot. Is it good to put the back end up, using a jack and then turn the back wheels in neutral and then in first gear to test anything? Or just tearing it down and opening it up? Would contaminated fuel cause this? Just thinking about fuel and run only 91 in it.

I thought maybe there is some kind of lock that might have locked the kickstarter into place? Am I thinking way wrong here?

Thanks,
Rich

[atv450rrich]

Originally posted by ricks450
mine went out at top end (WIDE OPEN). it ruined my top end. sence yours went out idleing your top end is porbably fine. mine did the samething as yours it froze up. then it freed up so i started it again then it ran for about a min. then shut back off and froze up. i took it apart and took the rod and turned it and it would turn then lock up. then i noticed the lower rod bearing broke. it was binding up. sence you said the piston look fine. the cylinder wasnt scarrred was it? if not your lucking compared to me. the factory crank with new bearing is right at $300. plus $20 for the ball bearing.

I don't even know if the piston is fine. I did hear a faint ching type sound before the engine cut off and starter stuck. How would I know if the cylinder was scarred?

Rich

[NET450r350x]

you'll see if your cylinder is scarred when you tear it down. It's not going to fix itself. if i were you i'd be turning some wrenches right about now.

[quadwanter]

Originally posted by atv450rrich

I have been meaning to change this oil, which as far as I know has only been used once. When my buddy owned it for the year or so, he never did any maintenance on it. Total hours since he's owned it are very few, right below 50 hours or less I believe.


they are hondas and they are good bikes but that doesnt mean you dont have to do maintance. You have to change your oil all the time like after every 2 or so rides. These are preformance bikes they will take a lot more maintance than your average honda 250ex. When was your '05 bought? The early models of the 2005 have/had crank problems from the get go.

[atv450rrich]

I bought the '05 TRX from a good friend about three months ago. So riding time has usually been just on the weekends and on holiday weekends since then.

Just surprised I would see these issues so new into it.

Rich

[N300exJ]

performance 4 strokes require ALOT of upkeep. All 04/05 450r's do this.( some people have been lucky so far) Everyone i know around my way with an 04/05 450r has had this problem. It just happens. Its really a design flaw(crank bearings to small) that we gotta live with. I rebuilt my whole engine when the crank went and it cost me 1100. and thats just parts no labor because my brother and i know how to build engines. While you have it apart you really should have the head looked at to make sure the valves arent cupped or hammerd to bad. If the last person didnt take care of it he probably didnt ever check valve clearances and shim them properly. also now is a good time to mod the thing. Cam and piston if you havent had that done. another thing i can recommend is a Hot Rods heavy duty crank. Its alot nicer and better made than an oem crank. I put one in my 450r and havent had a problem yet. So yeah get to tearing that thing down and make it even better!

[atv450rrich]

Originally posted by N300exJ
performance 4 strokes require ALOT of upkeep. All 04/05 450r's do this.( some people have been lucky so far) Everyone i know around my way with an 04/05 450r has had this problem. It just happens. Its really a design flaw(crank bearings to small) that we gotta live with. I rebuilt my whole engine when the crank went and it cost me 1100. and thats just parts no labor because my brother and i know how to build engines. While you have it apart you really should have the head looked at to make sure the valves arent cupped or hammerd to bad. If the last person didnt take care of it he probably didnt ever check valve clearances and shim them properly. also now is a good time to mod the thing. Cam and piston if you havent had that done. another thing i can recommend is a Hot Rods heavy duty crank. Its alot nicer and better made than an oem crank. I put one in my 450r and havent had a problem yet. So yeah get to tearing that thing down and make it even better!

1100? Ouch that is still a lot. So it could cost over 1100 since I do not know a lot about rebuilding engines? :( Next time I will need to research before putting money into a performance bike.

Then again what can someone expect with performance and up keep, right?

Thanks for the good advice.

[Punk'd]

UPDATE: NOT crank bearing issues.. The rod bearings went and locked everything up.

Crank will be replaced just incase along with cylinder getting a new sleeve and new piston. Also a couple other little things like valve work etc.. Should be running top notch when I get it back togther:D

[atv450rrich]

Originally posted by Punk'd
UPDATE: NOT crank bearing issues.. The rod bearings went and locked everything up.

Crank will be replaced just incase along with cylinder getting a new sleeve and new piston. Also a couple other little things like valve work etc.. Should be running top notch when I get it back togther:D

Man I might be lucky then, if that is all that is going with mine as far as the rod bearings. How much will your repair costs and mods cost? Just trying to get an estimate to prepare for the good vs the bad on my lock up.

Thanks

[trick450r]

im surprised that it started and died a few more times...when my crank went i was in the air and all i heard was DINK and that was all she wrote...lost the crank, both cases, oil pump, connecting rod, piston, timing chain, obviously the bearings...but mine was 3 laps after it was built by a reputable engine builder...

[trick450r]

Originally posted by trick450r
im surprised that it started and died a few more times...when my crank went i was in the air and all i heard was DINK and that was all she wrote...lost the crank, both cases, oil pump, connecting rod, piston, timing chain, obviously the bearings...but mine was 3 laps after it was built by a reputable engine builder...


Oh and btw...this was at about 9k rpm and the motor was built to the balls...it cost a shade over $1500 to repair but that was with a falicon crank and knife rod

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by atv450rrich

It must be the crank, you know more than I do and I appreciate your help. Would using two stroke hp transmission oil (poured into correct location), cause any issues? People have told me the 450r/250r are the only two exceptions?

I have been meaning to change this oil, which as far as I know has only been used once. When my buddy owned it for the year or so, he never did any maintenance on it. Total hours since he's owned it are very few, right below 50 hours or less I believe.

Need to mention I have also been running the 10 40 chevron oil. Only used once and only because that is all I had at the time when learning to change the fluids myself. I have been meaning to change out both fluids, but since only very few weekend hours (max 2.5 to 6 hours), since I've owned it. Thought it would be fine. Now the lockup after stalling in idle.


not saying this is the problem, but if your friend used synthetic oil during the time he had the quad then u changed back to regular oil that is never good for an engine. use one kind of oil and stick with it. and the 2 stroke oil you use for your tranny is not an issue. most people use that oil in the transmission, including me.

[atv450rrich]

Originally posted by Johnny B
not saying this is the problem, but if your friend used synthetic oil during the time he had the quad then u changed back to regular oil that is never good for an engine. use one kind of oil and stick with it. and the 2 stroke oil you use for your tranny is not an issue. most people use that oil in the transmission, including me.

Have you heard about whether or not the engines in the 05s have a very shallow oil sump?

Like when you change oil, if you don't add enough to cover the bearing, it will start up dry?

Is it a good idea to run extra oil in the transmission? If the gears are only lubed by splash? So would running an extra 100 ccs allow for better starting and no dry starting?

[watts16]

Originally posted by Punk'd
UPDATE: NOT crank bearing issues.. The rod bearings went and locked everything up.

Crank will be replaced just incase along with cylinder getting a new sleeve and new piston. Also a couple other little things like valve work etc.. Should be running top notch when I get it back togther:D
Good it wasnt the crank. You gfoing to run the MO series this year? Cant wait to race.:p

[Sjorge450R]

Originally posted by atv450rrich
Have you heard about whether or not the engines in the 05s have a very shallow oil sump?

Like when you change oil, if you don't add enough to cover the bearing, it will start up dry?

Is it a good idea to run extra oil in the transmission? If the gears are only lubed by splash? So would running an extra 100 ccs allow for better starting and no dry starting?

the extra will come out of the crank case breather lines.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by watts16
Good it wasnt the crank. You gfoing to run the MO series this year? Cant wait to race.:p

Yeah I will be there for sure. I just cant wait to get a top notch running engine back..

Everythings going to be brand new.

Valve job, sleved cylinder, new piston, crank, cam chain.. the works;)

[atv450rrich]

Originally posted by ricks450
dude its your crank i can almost guarantee you. do not pull start your bike. your bike freezing up on a idle. you do not get any more luck then that. if you try to start it say good by to just needing a crank. your motor is full metal thats not good for anything in that motor. just changing the oil isnt going to get it out neither, you need to open it up to get it out. starting your motor can go from $400 to $1500 real quick. :huh :eek2: :scary:

UPDATE

Got a call from Honda and it is in fact my Crank Bearing. Ouch and you nailed it to the point. Hopefully going to be covered under the warranty plan I have. Thanks again.

[ricks450]

Originally posted by atv450rrich
UPDATE

Got a call from Honda and it is in fact my Crank Bearing. Ouch and you nailed it to the point. Hopefully going to be covered under the warranty plan I have. Thanks again. i know it sucks. sorry to hear that man. when you were explaining it. you were taking the words right out of my mouth. my bike did the exact same thing. but mine went out wide open. (5th gear pinned) :( whiped out my top end to.