450R vs YFZ450 Magazine shootouts?

[TRX450R014]

This post is directed at the magazine shootouts between the
450R and YFZ450 since their release.Does everyone remember
how they said the YFZ450 was the clear winner when it came to
MX racing?Well,what happened?The 450R has won 2 years in a
row with 2 different riders which gives more credit to the 450R
success.As a matter of fact the 450R has won more races and
titles than the YFZ in many other forms of racing too.The only
exception is the GNC XC which was a very close battle.
This post is NOT directed at YFZ450 owners and I am not
suggesting the YFZ450 is not a competetive machine,in fact I am
grateful that all 4 of the japanese manufacturers are now making
competetive 450cc race quads and factory backing them too.
These are great days for us quad guys no matter what you ride.

I would just like the mags to acknowledge that they were wrong
to suggest the 450R was an inferior machine.Some of us Honda
owners even suggested that Yamaha was paying these mags to
say the YFZ450 was better.I am doubtful of that being the case
but it is somewhat understandable considering practically all of
the mags said basically the same things.In reality I believe it was
a combination of a couple things-1)The perception of the YFZ450
being faster because of its midrange hit compared to the 450R's
smooth power delivery.I ,myself can tell you the power curve of
some machines can be very deceptive.I have a 450R and my son
has a banshee and I can honestly say a stock banshee feels
faster than a stock 450R..but in reality the 450R is faster.Because
the banshee has that topend hit that is very abrupt it tends to
feel more powerful.2)The other reason is what I call the "what he
said" factor.Once one of the leading publications stated that
yamaha had released a quad that was superior to the Honda
(which was a very bold statement considering Hondas history with
the good old 250R)the others followed suit.After all...surely no
respected magazine would make such a statement unless it were
true.
Either way,let this be a lesson to all those magazine testers and
editors....never try to dump on a Honda because if you slip things
could get messy.:D

Who's with me?....let your voices be heard.

[Architects]

Who cares it's just a magazine. Not to mention there comparing stock machines. Not full blown MX quads with full suspension and national motors.

[Pappy]

Soooo, you will acknowledge that the LTR will be a superior machine over all others when it grabs the GNC and WPSA titles next year, or can we give the rider a bit more credit in a series such as these:p (I am not brand bias, just using that as an example)

Using racing to determine a superior/inferior machine is a pretty big task unless the case is made that one brand failed consistantly causing a winner to be based on machine longevity and not on rider skill.

[lumi]

im 110% with u... the dirtwheel mags and all suck...

i have both 06 yfz and 06 trx 450 and the trx is the besty god damn thing to ride next to a banshee for me.... to tell u the truth

i have done alot of repairs on my yfz, coolant seals gone, clutch burnt, piston and piston pins burning up lack of oil jet, sticking gears problems, loose starter system bolts.... i even got a stripped axle teeth after one week of opwnership of the damn thing... the trx is faster out of the box and jumps better. the yfz can handle a bit better i will give it that...


the engine on the trx is better and of a better design with a oil jet and all... just the hrc kit will make a yfz owner look both ways and say what happpened... only if yfz had long term tests on these things from when they tested them



-lumi

[TRX450R014]

Originally posted by Pappy
Soooo, you will acknowledge that the LTR will be a superior machine over all others when it grabs the GNC and WPSA titles next year, or can we give the rider a bit more credit in a series such as these:p (I am not brand bias, just using that as an example)

Using racing to determine a superior/inferior machine is a pretty big task unless the case is made that one brand failed consistantly causing a winner to be based on machine longevity and not on rider skill.



First of all....If you want to debate the LTR make another thread
because you are missing the point.The LTR has not been touted
so unanomously inferior like the 450R was when it was released.
(making the same mistake twice would really hurt PR).As I stated
in my post this is not a bash on the YFZ450.

Second...your remarks about racing to determine superior/inferior
machines.That is the way it has been since the inception of racing...win on Sunday,sell on Monday.These are sold as racing
machines and whichever one can prevail in the grueling world of racing earns that right to be considered superior.As far as longevity is concerned,that is and always has been Hondas strong
point.

I welcome any and all to respond to this post,but please keep things in perspective.The mags have shootouts all the time with
many types of machines and most of the time when they have two machines as equally matched as the 450R and YFZ there are
usually varied opinions as to which is better or they say there is
no clear winner and it depends on preference.However,that was not the case with the 450R/YFZ450 shootouts.The 450R did not win 1 shootout but has dominated in most of the race series.

And yes I agree the LTR is a formiddable machine that has the potential to take the top spot next year,heck we haven't even seen what the new Kawi 450 is capable of yet.

[Pappy]

Simmer down Junior, I clearly stated the LTR as an example. By your remarks I can see you have Honda on the brain and not reality.

And yes, win on sunday sell on monday is a sales pitch, just like the reviews your complaining about. Try and tell me Earnhardt couldnt win in a Ford over a Chevy blah blah blah.

Honda's strong point should be concentrated on its tranny and its frame. Longevity doesnt exist with current models.

And maybe you should do a bit more then bash someone for thier reply and learn to listen to those who work with every model and know their weaknesses well.

[gbcap]

i agree i think there is a weird bias towards the yfz450.

you can't always use racing to PROVE one machine is better then another. reason being the rider has a lot to do with how the bike does.

the win on sunday sell on monday thing works because people buy what they "think" is best by the win...but that doesn't always mean that bike is best.

a better way to determine what bike is better is to look at sales. look at the numbers at races. i would be willing to say the 450r is an awesome bike just because if you look at any start line of the gncc and your going to see mostly 450r's...oh but imagine that...for the past 4 years a yfz won...so does that mean the yfz is better? if what you said is true then that means the yfz is the best xc bike.

on the other hand the 450r won the baja 1000 and 500...so does that mean its the best? the ltr won the wspa but a 450r won the gnc...

it will always be up the rider preference...period...so don't listen to the mags and formulate your own opinon.

[cdrookie]

the honda not winning 1 mag shootout is because stock vs stock the yfz completely outhandles the trx. my buddy and myself(with about 40 combined years of riding and racing experience) just had our own shootout with a stock chassis trx(05 mine) against his stock chassis 04 yfz. i wasn't even close on our side hill track, and i'm the better rider. i just couldn't corner with the yfz.


the honda winning championships might have something to do with the fact that those aren't stock machines like the ones in the mag shootouts.

[oldskoolex400]

who cares which bike is better go out and have fun, i hate people who start these useless threads about overrating this blablabla
how about i go start a thread in the yfz forum about how the 450r is overrated?

all the 450's are so close its pitiful, you need to acknowledge this and leave the subject alone.....

[Architects]

Originally posted by cdrookie



the honda winning championships might have something to do with the fact that those aren't stock machines like the ones in the mag shootouts.


exactly my point.

[TRX450R014]

Junior...If at 36 I am still considered a junior...anyway,no simmering needed...I am calm and collected.

Obviously you are a very opinionated guy and I can appreciate that but please don't jack my thread.We could go back and forth for days about the whole "if this person did this or if that rider were on that"....which is pure speculation.The fact still remains that the 450R was dubbed as inferior,yet proved otherwise.
I haven't bashed you...I think you are reading my post too quickly
or something.I haven't even said the 450R is the best,I am simply stating some pure and simple facts with the exception of the "reason" the mags said what they said...I'm just guessing there.
Also,I too own a Performance shop and have first hand knowledge regarding Quads,Bikes,Sleds,etc.I hope you are not basing my knowledge on the amount of posts I have because that
would not be an accurate assessment.
Obviously you are a long time member with a great deal of knowledge and I respect your opinion and once again I assure you I am not bashing you by any means.I don't expect everyone
to agree with me but I have not made any false or insulting comments towards anything or anyone.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by TRX450R014
Junior...If at 36 I am still considered a junior...anyway,no simmering needed...I am calm and collected.

Obviously you are a very opinionated guy and I can appreciate that but please don't jack my thread.We could go back and forth for days about the whole "if this person did this or if that rider were on that"....which is pure speculation.The fact still remains that the 450R was dubbed as inferior,yet proved otherwise.
I haven't bashed you...I think you are reading my post too quickly
or something.I haven't even said the 450R is the best,I am simply stating some pure and simple facts with the exception of the "reason" the mags said what they said...I'm just guessing there.
Also,I too own a Performance shop and have first hand knowledge regarding Quads,Bikes,Sleds,etc.I hope you are not basing my knowledge on the amount of posts I have because that
would not be an accurate assessment.
Obviously you are a long time member with a great deal of knowledge and I respect your opinion and once again I assure you I am not bashing you by any means.I don't expect everyone
to agree with me but I have not made any false or insulting comments towards anything or anyone.


I simply drew a comparison based on your thread and your opinion and asked if you would claim the LTR (as an example) the clear winner of the race quads if it won the gnc and wpsa series next season, and based this soley on your theory of the honda winning. If you can not accept your own logic, then you have no basis for any form of arguement. Instead I get a lesson on how not to jack with your thread.

If you do indeed have expierence in the world of atv's, then you well know the deal and dont need to convince anyone of anything, but then this thread wouldnt exist now would it:p I dont need to make anyone believe me, I allow folks to form thier own opinion based on what I post without instructing them in forum etiqutte:cool:

[Pappy]

and to add, if Kawi sticks to its latest contingency layout, there will be a few less Hondas and other brands on the line:eek2: talk about investment:)

[iamjasyn]

Hi all. I think for example Dirt Wheels has really changed over the years. I have an old magazine from 88 where they did a shootout between a stock 250R and a Graydon Proline modded R. There is also an article comparing the new 88 LT250 to the new 88 Honda R. I dunno, it just seems to lack the marketing, hype and glamour that you see in the mag now. By the way the R was preferred at least marginally in every category against the LT except for it didn't have a crossbar handlebars like the Suzuki. And the stock R beat the Graydon bike in every drag race but one even with the Turf Tamer tire swaps.

I'm not trying to say anything too important, but the editing of the articles just feel more honest to me back then. You have to think too that advertising dollars play a big role and ATV riding is a much more visible and bigger money maker than it used to be. Cynically speaking, it's not really about what you would want, it's about what they want you to want. HUGE money is poured into marketing and media in general because it's soo effective.

If you want real info on these machines, talk to old school builders or pit crew people who have been around the block for a while. And like someone else said, go ride one, because a pro rider on an MX track is going to want something different than a weekend warrior duner. Dirt wheels for me is good for pictures as I pass the magazine isle and that's mostly about it.

[hy250r]

i have this same type of argument with my friends and what i always say "its what ever you prefer". these quads are all setup differently and if a rider doesnt feel comfortable on one then he is bound to feel comfortable on the other. it doesnt matter what you have, when it comes down to it, its all in the rider... good example, look at GNCC top racers, Ballance, Borich, Smiley, and Yokley they are on all 4 different machines and they are all good at what they do.

[TRX450R014]

Originally posted by Pappy
and to add, if Kawi sticks to its latest contingency layout, there will be a few less Hondas and other brands on the line:eek2: talk about investment:)



QUOTE ",in fact I am
grateful that all 4 of the japanese manufacturers are now making
competetive 450cc race quads and factory backing them too.
These are great days for us quad guys no matter what you ride".


We agree on something :cool:

[Pappy]

LOL...i didnt disagree with the entire magazine post! I disagreed with your claim that due to two consectutive wins it was the clear winner!

Re read what I posted, and you might get it!

I would add that I have never been approached or been told to sway opinion towards any product that I have been asked to review, and I also posed that question to a few of the editors of the magazines that I know and they said they had also never been told to write an article favoring one brand or one part over another. The YFZ got the nod based on thier findings, if you read more into that then what it is then you are just as much a sucker as the guy who runs out and buys one based on any shootout from anyone!

[450rJam]

the mags lie !!! flat out and simple

I posted a thread about dirtwheels claiming that putting a
"slip on " would gain 15hp on a yfz.

they really think people are going to believe that ?
I do hope most people are smarter than that.

(not knocking any makes, a slip on aint giving any atv 15hp)

[tx_250r]

when they tested the gekos i bought a pair online and had to wait about a month and a half... they were sold out every where and i had to get a set of 10" tires and wheels and after all that the wheels really are not that great. And what about the article where the lt450r with the cherry bomb beat out the CT250r... you just can't trust the mags alone with out first check other sources.

[bigH]

Originally posted by tx_250r
when they tested the gekos i bought a pair online and had to wait about a month and a half... they were sold out every where and i had to get a set of 10" tires and wheels and after all that the wheels really are not that great. And what about the article where the lt450r with the cherry bomb beat out the CT250r... you just can't trust the mags alone with out first check other sources.

hey tx_250r are you talking about the shootout in the dunes with a fully modded 330r went up against a ltr450 that was bone stock.....eventually they said they added the cherrybomb, took off airbox lid, and took the core out of the exhaust and somehow the suzuki pulled the ltr by 6 bike lenghts in a drag......i lost the mag but i am pretty sure it was ATV Sport

[bigH]

i meant suzuki pulled the 330r

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by bigH
i meant suzuki pulled the 330r
Yea, I heard about that... Common sense alone should tell you something is wrong there. That is either some biased testing or straight out of a fairytale. If a 270R can beat a piped 450, a 330 is certainly not going to fall on its face. Rediculous Pappy. What say you to that, cause it sounds like a buttf**k to me.

[Pappy]

Umm, how can I comment on a race that I wasnt at to see for myself?

Ive seen 330R's that couldnt get out of their own way so anything is possible, espeically in a drag race:p Tire spin with a big bore 2 stroke can be its own worst enemy, rider could not know how to ride it etc. What you say to that, should I get you a condom:eek:


and just FYI, it was an ATK taking the stock class in the GNC and a Polaris in the GNCC. does this mean they are the best 2 models to buy:confused: