The age of jetting is soon to be gone...

[balls2da-wall]

The day is soon coming when instead of the time comsuming task of trying to figure out jetting and hours of test riding will be gone. The norm will be laptops to tune quads instead of the standard wrench. I will welcome that day, because of the tunablity quads will have and the simple task of either piggyback or stand-alone fuel management. This is not goign to be new to me because I ride super sport bikes, but some of you older guys might want to start taking some computer class:D. I for-see as soon as honda and yamaha step into the scene with FI that the tuning age will take off. Power Commanders by DynoJet will more than likely be the best piggyback system for the new sport FI's and I imagine HRC will come out with a stand-alone and some small companies will pop up either with some programing services or offering new ECU's. It's already begun with the LTR and soon Honda's. I can't wait!

as far as i am concerned computers can stay in their place....i dont want any more computer or advancement....hell i dont even want my own cell phone and after my contract is up, i might not get another one...but computers are the future i will admit that, but i am just a young man stuck in a olds man body...i love old things and things were a hell of alot better back in the days of the 60s and 50s....just my 2 cents

ill tell you where to put that computer "advancement" :D :p


big thumbs up to the guys that prefer carb over EFI :macho

[balls2da-wall]

I figured we would have a few "screw computers, they are the devil" people. But I only see carbs as a HUGE hassle. EFI pretty much adjusts itself within small perameters and there is a lot less to go wrong. You still jet your car too?:p

[Mxjunkie]

I'd rather jet it myself still.. efi is just more eletrical bs to deal with if you ask me..

Jetting is so simple once you master it, I dont see why people have such problems with it..

[CHEVYZ]

EFI sucks. I do not want to own a quad that has it. Carbs are just easy as hell to me. It is so much easier to just drop a jet in and be gone, compared to having to buy expensive computers that also need tuning. I agree, EFI has its benefits on a quad, but overall it is not worth it to me. I think I will stick with carbs. :macho

[NorCalRacer]

I'll stick with my mappable EFI. Thousands of advantages, foremost being power.:D

[balls2da-wall]

Well for most of you wont have to touch the EFI system...it should be able to compensate for normal mods like slip ons and air filters...its the people who want the most power out of there quad...how many throttle positions can you adjust the carb for? idle, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and wide open? What about inbetween those? A EFI system can tune almost every position on a 100% scale from 0% throttle- 100% throttle...so while you may think your jetting is spot on your still may be running lean in some spots and rich in others. For the hardcore tuners access to a dyno would be nessacery to get the most out of EFI and to insure the quad is not running dangerously lean....or I guess you can pull your plug and check it too a color chart:p :D :rolleyes:

Also you will be able to run different maps at a flip of a switch like the cannondales and atk's...not the "un-noticable" timing CDIs that claim they can change power settings. These would be fuel mapping changes so say you could run a traction control map off starts and in muddy sections than flip to your "all out power map" for open sections and passing.(example for you XC guys). I consider that a huge advantage instead of swapping out jets everytime I want a different power curve, and all i have to do is either plug in a lap top and use some simple software or unplug the system and hook it up to my PC...not that difficult-atleast no more difficult then figuring out how to type on these forums for old guys like you:p :D just kidding!

The biggest advantage to the average user would be downloadable maps from companies such as HMF or White Bros. for their pipes. It is done in the sport bike scene and would carry over to atvs as soon as EFI was out on most quads. What this allows you to do is say you buy a pipe and filter from HMF...they will have a free map you can download from there site that is set up to get the most out of the certain pipe and filter combo...download it to your system and bam...instant jetting that is SPOT-ON!

[honduh440]

i cant wait

[balls2da-wall]

Originally posted by CHEVYZ
EFI sucks. I do not want to own a quad that has it. Carbs are just easy as hell to me. It is so much easier to just drop a jet in and be gone, compared to having to buy expensive computers that also need tuning. I agree, EFI has its benefits on a quad, but overall it is not worth it to me. I think I will stick with carbs. :macho

Ignorance is bliss? What expensive computer equipment? your PC that your chatting on right now is all you need...and i could make changes in a matter of seconds that would take most about 15-20minutes to swap out jets...so while I could spend 1 day running through say 20-30 maps you may spend a week doing. And as far as addressing all the "electrical bs"...I would be more than willing to swap out one small wire harness for a carb anyday...the more moving parts that are gone the less that can go wrong or wear out! no more seals to leak or jets to change! Just check out the powertrain section and look at all post on carb problems or jetting issues. Instead of trying to explain to someone how to jet their quad you could just send them a quick map over the internet and they are off:D

[rollie]

idk, i like my carb, but once EFI is out for a few years, it will be the norm and everyone will except it, think of cars, they used to be all carbs, now theres not a new car made without FI,myas for wiring, there is more, but if you truly enjoy the sport, you like to learn about everything you can, so soon enough EFI will be even simpler. as for now, ill be ridin a carb for a while:cool:

[jrspawn]

Wow, where do you start.... Each(efi and carb) has there pro's and cons. But one key factor to remember is that we are still dealing with ATV's here. Yes technology is stepping in, BUT we all know how great electrical system's can be one quads. Many have problems when it comes to this, and not to down talk or open a can of worms, look how great it was on the old dales, yes they ran great.... when they ran. Suzuki seems to have a more reliable setup going on BUT, full easy access(computer mapping) in the hands of every average joe, IS NOT GOOD! I think you will see more and more causing self inflicted problems trying to tune and find that extra .3 HP. And yeah with mapping you have a world of tuneability available, but is it really needed? Seems to me that HP numbers and power curves of a carb. engine is just as good or not better in some cases. To each his own is my point i guess. Ill stick with my carb and couple hand tools, and not have a battery, extra pounds of harness, connections, injectors, ecu, maps, computer, ect... Once again not totally downing the EFI quads today at all, just my opinion on it all.

Justin

yup, ill stay with carb for as long as i can...all this technology isnt good for mankind as a whole....id much rather ride soemthing that i know exactly what is going on rather then just knowing i put gas in it and it makes the tire turn...its just my persnality to want to know how everyhting works...for example my car does not run right all the time right now, all because of the electrical BS...sometimes i will start it up (if it starts) and itll rev to 2500 in park...sometimes a normal 700 ro so...sometimes 1500, and a few times i been stuck places and it wont start for 20-30 mins.....ahh i love computers :rolleyes:

and do i dare talk about how many lost calls ive gotton from my cell phone??? not matter witch way u twist it technology is getting out of hand and there should be some kind of limit...

there are some good types of technology tho, i think we should produce as much as we can to the hospitals to try and save people, but to have a "map" on my quad to make it run a tad better? nah, ill stick with something i know how to work

[jrspawn]

Balls2dawall, why do you say carbs are a huge hastle? Just curious.

Justin

[trx400exxracer]

Originally posted by balls2da-wall
The day is soon coming when instead of the time comsuming task of trying to figure out jetting and hours of test riding will be gone. The norm will be laptops to tune quads instead of the standard wrench. I will welcome that day, because of the tunablity quads will have and the simple task of either piggyback or stand-alone fuel management. This is not goign to be new to me because I ride super sport bikes, but some of you older guys might want to start taking some computer class:D. I for-see as soon as honda and yamaha step into the scene with FI that the tuning age will take off. Power Commanders by DynoJet will more than likely be the best piggyback system for the new sport FI's and I imagine HRC will come out with a stand-alone and some small companies will pop up either with some programing services or offering new ECU's. It's already begun with the LTR and soon Honda's. I can't wait!

Don't forget the new Kawasaki 450 is going to be EFI right!

[orca0294]

I feel as though the people that don't like computer technology as much hate it but the ones that are into learning more about computers love the idea of what EFI brings. EFI has been around for a long time in cars why not bring it into the ATV world? I like the idea of it but I'll let them work all the little problems out of it before I start riding one. The only thing that worries me is what if the EFI gives out in the air? your going right over the bars.

[WhiteYFZ]

Originally posted by Mxjunkie
I'd rather jet it myself still.. efi is just more eletrical bs to deal with if you ask me..

Jetting is so simple once you master it, I dont see why people have such problems with it..

cant say it any better.:cool:

[RaptorRacer45]

I didnt think EFI was the best thing in the ATV World either but now that im on a Quad thats equipt with it I love it, smooth power and easy starts....so far im not 1 to complain:D

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by Mxjunkie
I'd rather jet it myself still.. efi is just more eletrical bs to deal with if you ask me..

Jetting is so simple once you master it, I dont see why people have such problems with it..


Ill third that

[F-16Guy]

Yeah, EFI on a quad is great :rolleyes:
Have you seen how much it costs for the interface unit for the LTR450? You can buy a lot of jets with that. I hardly ever change my jetting; only when I'm going to the dunes or high elevation. I'll take the simplicity of jets any day.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
Yeah, EFI on a quad is great :rolleyes:
Have you seen how much it costs for the interface unit for the LTR450? You can buy a lot of jets with that. I hardly ever change my jetting; only when I'm going to the dunes or high elevation. I'll take the simplicity of jets any day.
thats how I am. The only ones that needed jetted ALOT is my kids minis, I admit they are temperamental ,ut thats to be expected out of the minis for the most part. :scary:
Troy and I rarely rejet,maybe 2-3 times a year at best

[F-16Guy]

Yeah, I agree. I actually enjoy working on my quad, so it's no big deal. You guys getting some snow up there tonight? It's trying to here.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
Yeah, I agree. I actually enjoy working on my quad, so it's no big deal. You guys getting some snow up there tonight? It's trying to here. Not down in the valley, but its DAYUM cold! Troy and Kelsey went to actually jet her quad for the cold weather today and about froze to death.:scary: I was hoping to get a somewhat warming trend so that maybe swing an Christmas Eve ride,but not sure if its going to happen :ermm:


Im DEF. looking forward to AZ next month :cool:

[balls2da-wall]

I guess some people are willing to learn I suppose...like the ones that say they want to know what is going on instead of just putting in gas and going. Did you know exactly what is going on when you first saw a carb? You have to learn it...and as far as compairing cars to atv's EFI systems is a whole different story. Cars have tons of sensors and electronics to run the engine and transmission so there is alot that can go wrong and yes cost will be high until a few years down the road. I say jetting is a hassle because comparing it to EFI it is. Say im out at the track doing some tuning I could have to remove the seat, gas tank, run the fuel out of the carb, take the carb off the bike, take the screws out (which if your not carefully strip out extremely easy) and try and figure out what jet you need next. Now flip that...plug in my laptop and click clack for 2minutes and im done. When everything is out there will be performace maps floating around that you can download and go try out without having to worry about jetting...so instead of hearing in the powertrain forum that I run a 48main, with a blah-blah pilot, with the needle clip at position 3...I would say im running the Bill Ballance Map or Tim Farr Map. Then in turn you could run the same map without having to change a thing. As far as pros and cons I only see pros, but ONLY until they get all the bugs worked out and the cost comes down. Time is money and I would much rather spend my time riding and testing my quad then wrenching....I will take sore fingers over busted up knuckles anyday....just wait for the electronics suspension to come out then you guys will be really confused!:p

[CHEVYZ]

Originally posted by balls2da-wall
Ignorance is bliss? What expensive computer equipment? your PC that your chatting on right now is all you need...and i could make changes in a matter of seconds that would take most about 15-20minutes to swap out jets...so while I could spend 1 day running through say 20-30 maps you may spend a week doing. And as far as addressing all the "electrical bs"...I would be more than willing to swap out one small wire harness for a carb anyday...the more moving parts that are gone the less that can go wrong or wear out! no more seals to leak or jets to change! Just check out the powertrain section and look at all post on carb problems or jetting issues. Instead of trying to explain to someone how to jet their quad you could just send them a quick map over the internet and they are off:D Let me correct that...expensive programmers. Programmers for the LTR cost as much as about $300 dollars. Jets are more like a few bucks. I don't see what the big deal on jetting is. I can get my bike tuned nearly perfect with nothing but a couple of jets...if I want to get technical, I can always run down the road to the dyno and have it dyno tuned for relatively cheap. Nearly perfect tuning for my carburetor equiped bike, with the help of a dyno for maximum results, would still cost far less than what it would cost me to have it tuned by using maps via EFI.

I know quite a bit of people with both LTRs and 700 Raptors, and most of the people I talk to have had problems with the EFI as far as tuning goes. From what I have been hearing, I think that jetting a bike is just as easy, if not much easier to get it near tuned.

[balls2da-wall]

Expensive programmers? Are they re-programming the ECU or are they using a piggyback system? DynoJet makes Power Commanders which are very cheap and you use your PC to tune them. For every advantage of a carb there are 2 more to follow EFI. Im not going to re-state everything I have said and there is far more to go wrong with a carb than with EFI...its people who are computer illiterate or dont follow directions and think they now what it takes to make their own map that have problems with EFI...ive seen it on sport bikes time and time again. With a wide-band O2 sensor you should be able to reasonable tune a quad without a dyno, but you will not be able to tell HP ratings and so forth...only tune for air/fuel ratio's.

[FourFiftyFour]

I have the Power Commander on my Zuk and am really impressed. Suzuki really seems to have their fuel injected LTRs in good working order. The Cannondale was a really good start and then Suzuki came along a few years later and got it going again. If Cannondale would have had a few more years, their quads would have been a lot more reliable. A lot of people have a bad idea of EFI quads because the Cannondales were a bit "buggy", but keep in mind they were doing a whole lot in such a little time!

[NorCalRacer]

Originally posted by FourFiftyFour
I have the Power Commander on my Zuk and am really impressed. Suzuki really seems to have their fuel injected LTRs in good working order. The Cannondale was a really good start and then Suzuki came along a few years later and got it going again. If Cannondale would have had a few more years, their quads would have been a lot more reliable. A lot of people have a bad idea of EFI quads because the Cannondales were a bit "buggy", but keep in mind they were doing a whole lot in such a little time!

The cannondale EFI seems to work fine to me:confused:

[MOFO]

Everyone wants to use cars and bikes for examples of how well EFI works. Our ATV's are subjected to an environment that would kill most bike or car EFI systems. How often do you bury your car in the mud or water? How often is your bike bounced around at high rates of speed while being subjected to mud and water. These are my worries. All it takes is one circuit or wire to fail and your dead in the water (literally in some cases)... and in my case, this could be 20-50 miles in the middle of no where!

I understand and see the benefits of EFI from a performance and technological point of view, but sometimes the simplest most reliable design is the best.

For me, the average trail rider, I'll take a carb any day of the week due to it being more reliable and less of a headache when issues do arise. You have to keep this in mind that not every ATV owner is looking for that high HP machine using the latest technology. Some prefer the simple, reliable method.

BTW, I am NOT computer illiterate and follow technology more than most on this board - I've been on top of computers WAY before you were born, balls2da-wall! Your assumptions and stereotypes are FAR from being correct. Will EFI be the dominate way of sending fuel to a cylinder some day? Yes. Should you downplay and assume people who do not need or want EFI as being "not willing to learn"? Absolutely NOT!

[jrspawn]

Originally posted by balls2da-wall
Expensive programmers? Are they re-programming the ECU or are they using a piggyback system? DynoJet makes Power Commanders which are very cheap and you use your PC to tune them. For every advantage of a carb there are 2 more to follow EFI. Im not going to re-state everything I have said and there is far more to go wrong with a carb than with EFI...its people who are computer illiterate or dont follow directions and think they now what it takes to make their own map that have problems with EFI...ive seen it on sport bikes time and time again. With a wide-band O2 sensor you should be able to reasonable tune a quad without a dyno, but you will not be able to tell HP ratings and so forth...only tune for air/fuel ratio's.


There is more to go wrong with a carb than EFI? Now thats a crazy statement, first do you own an EFI quad? And second please explain to me why you say this. There are quite a few more components to an EFI system than carb, alot actually that have almost zero tolerance for problems. Yes EFI is a nice setup on anything, BUT we are dealing with ATV's that like someone else stated are subject to alot more than anyother EFI vehicle. You need to get some facts straight also before saying some of the things you have. Also, every quad i have owned(which i can go down the list if you want) only took but a few, and i mean a few minutes to jet, main jets can be changed pretty much without removing anything but the drain plug, and pilots or anything else, loosen the carb and turn it. And now haw is "that a huge hastle"? Pretty simple in my book if you know how to use a screwdriver:huh

Justin

[armoks]

The neatest thing C-dale's programing for thier system was the difference in maps. You could change where you wanted to have the power hit. It let you have a power curve where you needed it. I liked that ability. I could have a map in it that hit low for the woods so I could keep it in a higher gear but when I hit the desert I could throw in a map that had the power up high so it could be reved to keep traction in the sand. There's guys out there now that are using the same timing on all thier maps and just changing the fuel. You can't get the choices of power you want out of that system if you use the same timing on every map you make.

With a carb you are doing the same thing same power same spot everytime.

I also have a LTR with the power commander and it's nothing like that, you can only play with the fuel in it since it's a piggyback system you set it once and you're done. Kinda weak if you ask me. But I still perfer it over a carb because you don't go through the hassle of getting gas on anything just a quck plug into the computer and boom you're set. but in the same look it's the same as a carb because you can only have the hit in the same spot ever time.

Unless someone comes up with a programer where you can get into the ignition side of the map then the newer EFI's are just going to be electric carbs, not what the C-dale/ATK way of EFI was.

[PeeWee21]

Good post Armocks.....bottom line...EFI is here to stay, get used to it. There is pro's and con's with both......except the carb will be going away soon. I personally think the Dales EFI system was a TRUE EFI system cause it directly injected it through the valves. We''ll all be looking back in the day when people used carbs! lol lol

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Honda86
yup, ill stay with carb for as long as i can...all this technology isnt good for mankind as a whole....id much rather ride soemthing that i know exactly what is going on rather then just knowing i put gas in it and it makes the tire turn...its just my persnality to want to know how everyhting works...for example my car does not run right all the time right now, all because of the electrical BS...sometimes i will start it up (if it starts) and itll rev to 2500 in park...sometimes a normal 700 ro so...sometimes 1500, and a few times i been stuck places and it wont start for 20-30 mins.....ahh i love computers :rolleyes:

and do i dare talk about how many lost calls ive gotton from my cell phone??? not matter witch way u twist it technology is getting out of hand and there should be some kind of limit...


Im sending you a reply in the form of a telegram.

[balls2da-wall]

I like the part about the bouncing around effecting the EFI...I guess trophy trucks still run carbs in the baja:rolleyes: ....I think the float in the carb is ALOT more fragile than injectors...the only part I see being a problem is the connections and ECU which all can be made waterproof and as far as bike not compairing to an ATV I agree with.

[Honda TRX250ex]

to much weight and confusion :o

Originally posted by Honda TRX250ex
to much weight and confusion :o

That's cause your eleventeen and never worked on EFI quad, or probably rode one.
In like 10 years from now EFI will be so standard that the kids will be like"WTF is a carb?"

[MOFO]

Originally posted by balls2da-wall
I like the part about the bouncing around effecting the EFI...I guess trophy trucks still run carbs in the baja:rolleyes: ....I think the float in the carb is ALOT more fragile than injectors...the only part I see being a problem is the connections and ECU which all can be made waterproof and as far as bike not compairing to an ATV I agree with.


So your saying the current ATV's have the same EFI as 6 figure baja trucks (in terms of quality)?

...aside from that, you totally missed my entire point. Go figure... :rolleyes:

[MOFO]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
That's cause your eleventeen


Looking at your DOB, you would be "eleventeen" as well. :D

Back to the original point. How do these quads start when the battery is dead? Can you just push start it like a carb equipped bike? How well do they handle water getting into the fuel/air system?

[jrspawn]

Very good point MOFO. But according to balls2dawall the EFI is less of a hastle and far less to go wrong:huh Last time i check the EFI setups have a battery to deal with, in which mofo hit on the head, dead battery, your SOL, then you have you injectors, connections, ECU, sensors, Extra harness, Micro mesh style filters, fuel pump, fittings, ect.... doesnt sound like less of a hastle and far less to go wrong than a carb to me, not even close. And aside from even getting water in the fuel system, get some Very fine dirt/grit in the fuel, i guess your gonna say thats gonna pass through an injector better than a carb? And about floats, i have Never had a float problem, Never and i've had a couple quads. I would be willing to bet money that injectors will fail more than a float. In fact i know that for a fact, having had C dales in the family and having had injectors go bad, when all my floats were still floating. Once again i am not stating EFI is bad or junk, it is the technology of today, but remember, we a are still dealing with ATV's here. And once again please learn some facts before making some statements, from the sounds of it, some downing carbs prob havent ever even worked on one, or even had an EFI quad.....

Justin

[honda250xrider]

i think efi is just another step into the atv world, i personally like the fact that you can adjust so many aspects. But downsides are alot more to go wrong i would assume more maintance but there are advantages. I dont think one is to much better than the other just a new step into atv world. everyone can have there choice but i would perfer EFI if i had to choose.

[LTR450_#67]

Heres a fact: Doug Gust won the WPSA championship with an EFI equipped (sp?) quad. I'm sure that convinced a few people. I have had no issues with my LTR and I have a few buddies with the Raptor 700Rs with no probs either.
Both carb and EFI get the job done, but EFI is a step further though. Look at all of the cars built today.

Oh by the way EFI can run without a battery. Arctic Cat has had batteryless EFI for years now on their snowmobiles.

later

[jrspawn]

Another fact, joe byrd won the GNC series with a carb. My issue is not weather EFI is good or not, it does perform good, but alot of components, maybe in the future if some of the components can be eliminated some way, that would be even better for it. And how is artic cat running a batteryless EFI setup, an inline capaciter maybe? My post have been directed at people that for some reason say/think carb's are a huge hastle and alot to go wrong with, that just makes no sense.

Justin

[RaptorRacer45]

Originally posted by LTR450_#67
Heres a fact: Doug Gust won the WPSA championship with an EFI equipped (sp?) quad.


Im on a Raptor 700 and am all for EFI but sorry ill have to proove this fact false, Doug Gust and J. Jones Swapped out the EFI systems on their LTR's for FCR Carbuetors early in the season due to not having enough adjustibility and knowledge to keep a consistant competive Racer, now im sure they'll bring the EFI back but atleast for this Season Team Suzuki's LTR450s were carbureted

[PismoLocal]

I basically have no knowledge of how the fuel systems deliver on the new fuel injected quads, are they a fuel injected throttle body(TBI) or do they have direct port injection?

[jrspawn]

Originally posted by RaptorRacer45
Im on a Raptor 700 and am all for EFI but sorry ill have to proove this fact false, Doug Gust and J. Jones Swapped out the EFI systems on their LTR's for FCR Carbuetors early in the season due to not having enough adjustibility and knowledge to keep a consistant competive Racer, now im sure they'll bring the EFI back but atleast for this Season Team Suzuki's LTR450s were carbureted

I didnt want to open up that can of worms, but you already did:D What he stated is fact in a way. Before the start of this past years GNC circuit when gust was training on the LTR, he did in fact want it to be switched over to a carb, they had nothing but bad luck with it and not being what they anticipated with ajustabilty(remember its not a full out tuneable setup on the ltr like armocks stated), all of this came from Travis Spader(which i consider a Very good sorce to believe) when i had talked to hiim at englishtown before the start of this past season. They must have figured it out though, seeing that they did use the efi setup to race with afterall. And the EFI did not make gust win, Gust is a bad mofo, an could prob win on a blaster. :devil: Just wanted to clear that up before people started bashing that statement, it is true that the gust did not like the EFI setup.

Justin