trade my 450r for banshee?

[Slimyslipknot]

I have a
2005 450R with some mods..
Yohsi slipon.
K&N.
Dial-a-jet
ESR intake.
and some other mods that are just for looks
(Bumper,nerfbars, handle bars OMF scoop, cut fenders... ect)

I love banshees.. but iv heard they have problems when built up.

This guy wants to trade me his banshee.. bored to a 420.

I ride sand. (sometimes dirt...mostly sand)

i like to drag people just for fun.. but i also ride trails for 70% of my riding. and hill lcimbs and other stuff..

I hear banshees overheat fast.
and they suck for trails.. i hear alot of bad things about the,, and the only good thing i hear is there fast.

What should i do?

[97blaster200]

my banshee has never overheated....i dont have any problem riding mine in the trails...thats what i mostly ride on.

[Xater]

i would keep the 450r becuase 70% of your riding is trails. but if it was mostly sand i would take the shee.

[250r4life]

i would keep the 450... and yes, banshees can be very unreliable when built up... of course, anything can be very unreliable when built up...

Personally, i would never buy a bike that somebody else built up... i know it costs more to do it yourself, but that way you know whats done, you know it was done right, and thats half the fun is building them up...

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by 250r4life
Personally, i would never buy a bike that somebody else built up...

Yeah.. but my 450 i bougth already modded and stuf... i traded my KFX400 and 1000 for it.



And yeah i ride pretty much sand.. like sand trails. hill climbs... drags.. stuff liek that. But we also go on LONG rides.. and i know the 450R has a much bigger gas tank then the banshee.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Yeah.. but my 450 i bougth already modded and stuf... i traded my KFX400 and 1000 for it.



And yeah i ride pretty much sand.. like sand trails. hill climbs... drags.. stuff liek that. But we also go on LONG rides.. and i know the 450R has a much bigger gas tank then the banshee.

im not talking about bolt ons like you have- its kind of hard to mess up putting on a slip on and nerfs and what not... im talking about engine work...

i dont know about hte 450 having a bigger tank than the banshee, but it sure doesnt suck gas like the banshee thats for sure...

[iamjasyn]

I hate 4strokes as a replacement for 2strokes in general, but especially for sand! If you ride mostly sand like I do, you want either a 250R or a Banshee. 2strokes get the wheels spinning fast which is preferable in dunes.

As far as fuel, I can rail till my body needs a recharge on about a complete tank on my R with a 38mm carb. So that's about enough fuel for me. I ride hard and am in good shape.

[Slimyslipknot]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by iamjasyn
I hate 4strokes as a replacement for 2strokes in general, but especially for sand! If you ride mostly sand like I do, you want either a 250R or a Banshee. 2strokes get the wheels spinning fast which is preferable in dunes.

Iv heard about the 250R having good handiling for a 2 stroke... but se eim 250 LBs 6'1 And no im not fat.. i lift weights.And im just afriad the 250R wont have neough power for me.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
[B
Iv heard about the 250R having good handiling for a 2 stroke... [/B]

good handling for a 2 stoke? the 250r has exceptional handling PERIOD!!!

[firefighterjosh]

Depends what the banshee is built for. I raced mine in XC but I set it up for that.

Just ride it see what you think. And yes its going to be more upkeep on a engine like the one on the banshee due to it all hopped up compared to your stocker 450.

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
[QUOTE]Originally posted by iamjasyn
I hate 4strokes as a replacement for 2strokes in general, but especially for sand! If you ride mostly sand like I do, you want either a 250R or a Banshee. 2strokes get the wheels spinning fast which is preferable in dunes.

Iv heard about the 250R having good handiling for a 2 stroke... but se eim 250 LBs 6'1 And no im not fat.. i lift weights.And im just afriad the 250R wont have neough power for me.

Haha. Tha'ts funny. So I guess you're one of the people that think that the 450's are here because its an improved technology. Just from the sidelines: they are a replacement technology, it's for legal environmental reasons and its not necessarily even new. cc pre cc 2strokes make much more power and have fewer moving parts to maintain and improve to get it. That's not an opinion by the way... Besides though if you think about your comment you'll get that the engine has nothing directly to do with the handling. Althouigh you would think that the 450 would have a better chassis after 18 years to think about it, but I hear more often than not that people tend to think the 250R is still a better chassis for some reason. I know it feels lighter to me...

Weigh your options, but don't read dirt wheels alone and think you're getting well rounded info that's not biased by manufacturer advertising dollars.

Good luck hombre.

[Slimyslipknot]

Can the 250r Be just as fast as a banshee? and handle just as good as the 450's?

If its such a good bike why did they stop making them in the 90's?

Is the 250R even less reliable then the Banshee?

Would it have enough power for my size?


And what abote the LTR250? and 500?

[whoamack22]

the 250r will definately have the power to get you around

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by whoamack22
the 250r will definately have the power to get you around

Im looking for somthing to be fast.. bu ti dont want to make it a stict drag machine.. just somthing to mess around and own people on there 450's and 400's and the dunes. but also be good for trails and dirt MX riding. I would go banshee... but i hear they suck on trails and there handling sucks. woyuld the 250R be able to spank some 450's? even with 250 LBS on it?

[firefighterjosh]

Go with a raptor 700. Put a pipe on it and you should beat other piped 450s.

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
Go with a raptor 700. Put a pipe on it and you should beat other piped 450s.

My brother has a raptor 700 and it has pipe with airfilter and EFI controller.. and i beat him... i want a good fast good handleing 2 stroke... to lay a whooping on these new 4-pokes

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
My brother has a raptor 700 and it has pipe with airfilter and EFI controller.. and i beat him... i want a good fast good handleing 2 stroke... to lay a whooping on these new 4-pokes

MY banshee has t - 6 pipes, d2 reeds, adj timing plate, vitos pistons. Otherwise stock and very reliable. 3rd gear on I pulled away.

As for handling. I raced it in XC. Not real hard to control once you get used to it. Best thing is a good pair of shocks.

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
MY banshee has t - 6 pipes, d2 reeds, adj timing plate, vitos pistons. Otherwise stock and very reliable. 3rd gear on I pulled away.

As for handling. I raced it in XC. Not real hard to control once you get used to it. Best thing is a good pair of shocks.


What if i was to put a banshee engine.. in a 250R body?!

[Supercup]

I have both a 450R and a Banshee. The serve different tasks. You can ride either one anywhere, trails included. Both of mine are highly modified.

I would stay away from someone elses modified Banshee or big bore kit. They tend to get to be problematic and you don't want someone else's mistake. If you want a Banshee get a stocker or one with suspension mods, but limited motor mods.

You put in a K&N filter, do a port job and add pipes and be making close to 65hp. No other bike you can buy will give you that type of power for the moeny. However when you are done you will have a lot of power and no handling. The Shee needs wider a-arms and rear axels, more travel etc... to deal with the power. But you can get all of that too (if you have the budget) and have a great ride.

The 450 is easier to ride, a lot more torque, has much better suspension and is far more user friendly. It does everything well and will do everything you want, except beat a Banshee in a drag race. If I could only have 1 bike I would have a 450 (Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, doesn't matter). They are just newer technology and superior all around bikes.

But if you want to win drag races, instead of real races you need a Banshee, nothing like it!

Good luck,

JCM

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn


but don't read dirt wheels alone

more like dont read dirt wheels period, or at least dont let anything you read there influence your decision... i read so much BS in that mag

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot


And what abote the LTR250? and 500?

what about them? stay away- now those are unreliable bikes... shoot- they were unreliable back then, i can only imagine now...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Can the 250r Be just as fast as a banshee? and handle just as good as the 450's?

If its such a good bike why did they stop making them in the 90's?

Is the 250R even less reliable then the Banshee?

Would it have enough power for my size?




1- yes, the 250r can be faster than most banshees, and handle better than the 450s... for each, assuming it is set up correctly of course
2- they actually quit making them in 89, and everybody in the ATV world has been asking that question ever since
3- no... although any bike can be reliable or become unreliable, generally comparably the R is more reliable than the banshee... but that always depends on the bike, its history, mods, etc...
4- thats a good question... a lot depends on what you did to the bike... i hate to tell ya but that 250 lbs is a pretty big handicap for drag racing...

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by 250r4life
i hate to tell ya but that 250 lbs is a pretty big handicap for drag racing...

I may be 250 lbs.. but i usually beat people i drag mainly just cause i know when exactly to shift and theres ways to use your weight.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Im looking for somthing to be fast.. bu ti dont want to make it a stict drag machine.. just somthing to mess around and own people on there 450's and 400's and the dunes. but also be good for trails and dirt MX riding. I would go banshee... but i hear they suck on trails and there handling sucks. woyuld the 250R be able to spank some 450's? even with 250 LBS on it?

ive owned a banshee, ridden and worked on several, and i own an R and a yfz...

now assuming youre an equal rider to me, its going to take a serious big bore R to beat my on my YFZ with your weight... im talking a pretty aggresive 330 or 350 at least... oh yah, and i weigh 170 lbs...

they say 7lbs is like one horsepower, although obviously it is a bell shaped curve, and im not exactly sure where the middle would be as far as weight... i imagine that would be different for each bike with each HP...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
I may be 250 lbs.. but i usually beat people i drag mainly just cause i know when exactly to shift and theres ways to use your weight.

then youre racing people who suck at racing then...

and i dont know how you would use your weight besides to keep the front end down...

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by 250r4life
ive owned a banshee, ridden and worked on several, and i own an R and a yfz...

now assuming youre an equal rider to me, its going to take a serious big bore R to beat my on my YFZ with your weight... im talking a pretty aggresive 330 or 350 at least... oh yah, and i weigh 170 lbs...

they say 7lbs is like one horsepower, although obviously it is a bell shaped curve, and im not exactly sure where the middle would be as far as weight... i imagine that would be different for each bike with each HP...

My friend who is only 160lbs when we both had KFX 400's his was a 04 mine was a 05.. mine was bone stock an dhis had pipe and airfilter. He did beat me.. but only by like a half a foot.. now if my quad had the same modds i would have won and hes a good dragger to. Like i said theres ways to shift your weight to benifet

[Slimyslipknot]

Then should i just get a banshee and get better suspension? such as YFZ suspension and maybe some wider A arms.. then i got the Banshee power with the 450 handiling.

[250r4life]

alright... i guess if you know everything already then why are you here asking questions...


i dont care about racing one or two people who apparently dont know how to ride...

no- weight is not a benefit... i dont care what you say, the downs will outweigh the ups...

and if you win all your races already, why do you need a banshee?

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
My friend who is only 160lbs when we both had KFX 400's his was a 04 mine was a 05.. mine was bone stock an dhis had pipe and airfilter. He did beat me.. but only by like a half a foot.. now if my quad had the same modds i would have won and hes a good dragger to. Like i said theres ways to shift your weight to benifet

The only thing weight does is keep your front end down and can help you get traction. Otherwise its going to take horsepower away from you.

[250r4life]

if youre going to be humble enough to ask questions, be humble enough to listen to the answers...

dont ask questions and then act like you know everything

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by 250r4life
if youre going to be humble enough to ask questions, be humble enough to listen to the answers...

dont ask questions and then act like you know everything

?I have been listeing... a 250R isnt enough power for me.. and a basnhee doesnt have the handleing i want.. so if i was to just get new suspension fo rthe banshee then wouldnt it fix that problem?

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Then should i just get a banshee and get better suspension? such as YFZ suspension and maybe some wider A arms.. then i got the Banshee power with the 450 handiling.

A banshee will never handle like a 450.

What is your budget?

Also why do you want to ride trails and drag race? There complete opposites? You can't have a drag quad and then want to make it good for trails too.

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
A banshee will never handle like a 450.

What is your budget?

Also why do you want to ride trails and drag race? There complete opposites? You can't have a drag quad and then want to make it good for trails too.


If you would have read what i said erlier i said i dont want to make a strictly drag machine.. but i do like to drag at the dunes with friends and random people for fun, and of course i want to win.. so i want somthing fast.. but i mostly ride trails and hill climbs.

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
?I have been listeing... a 250R isnt enough power for me.. and a basnhee doesnt have the handleing i want.. so if i was to just get new suspension fo rthe banshee then wouldnt it fix that problem?

Just suspension is not going to help it handle like a 450.


Like I said earlier go ride the dang banshee and see what you think of it. If you like it then trade, if not then don't trade.

[250r4life]

just stick with your 450... if you mostly trail ride that is what you need, and you occasionally drag race and supposedly you beat a lot of people at it by "using" your weight, so sounds like youre good to go... whats the problem here? sounds like youre already set

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by 250r4life
just stick with your 450... if you mostly trail ride that is what you need, and you occasionally drag race and supposedly you beat a lot of people at it by "using" your weight, so sounds like youre good to go... whats the problem here? sounds like youre already set

Yeah but my friends are now getting the new LTR450 and the 08 KFX450 when they come out.. and ill beable to beat them now while tehre stock but once they start to mod i will be left behind.

What are some things i can do to my TRX do give it more power..(besides a bore)

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
If you would have read what i said erlier i said i dont want to make a strictly drag machine.. but i do like to drag at the dunes with friends and random people for fun, and of course i want to win.. so i want somthing fast.. but i mostly ride trails and hill climbs.

I did read earlier.

Anyways I have seen HRC kit 450s beat all decked out banshee with Trinity big bore engines in them in a sand drag. Its not all about engine. Depends what paddles your running and sometimes in sand too much power is bad. Also you want a light quad. Banshees are not the lightest thing around

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
Banshees are not the lightest thing around


Thats why i had the idea of putting a banshee engine in a TRX250R or a 450... but i dono if that would work or be any good.

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Yeah but my friends are now getting the new LTR450 and the 08 KFX450 when they come out.. and ill beable to beat them now while tehre stock but once they start to mod i will be left behind.

What are some things i can do to my TRX do give it more power..(besides a bore)

Yea a CB on the LTR and your Done for. Your going to needa ICE CUBE big bore to beat the LTR 450 with CB and exhaulst lol.

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
Yea a CB on the LTR and your Done for. Your going to needa ICE CUBE big bore to beat the LTR 450 with CB and exhaulst lol.

Well another friend of mine has the 06 LTR with the CB and the silencer taken off the pipe.. and i beat him. hes not the best rider... but he doesnt suck.

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Thats why i had the idea of putting a banshee engine in a TRX250R or a 450... but i dono if that would work or be any good.

Never seen it done. I would rather put the work/ money into your 450


Just keep the 450 and get it setup right. The LTR 450 is a bad machine, but get your quad running right put a cam, pistons and jetted correct. You might just be alright. If not big bore.


Why don't you just buy a LTR 450 then?

[250r4life]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
Yea a CB on the LTR and your Done for. Your going to needa ICE CUBE big bore to beat the LTR 450 with CB and exhaulst lol.

i hope there was some sarcasm thrown in there

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh

Why don't you just buy a LTR 450 then?

Dont have the moeny for it. and i dono if i would trade mine for a stock one..cause mine has a bit of money into it.. not all performance but looks too.

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by 250r4life
i hope there was some sarcasm thrown in there

Maybe a little:p :macho

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
Yea a CB on the LTR and your Done for. Your going to needa ICE CUBE big bore to beat the LTR 450 with CB and exhaulst lol.


I HEARD! that the LTR450 doesnt have as much HP as the other 450's... and the CB brings it right up to par.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
I did read earlier.

Anyways I have seen HRC kit 450s beat all decked out banshee with Trinity big bore engines in them in a sand drag. Its not all about engine. Depends what paddles your running and sometimes in sand too much power is bad. Also you want a light quad. Banshees are not the lightest thing around

i dont know about HRC kitted 450s beating big banshees... at least they shouldnt... there has to be other variables affecting the race- a lot more than just paddles...

sometimes in sand too much power is a bad thing? well obviously a 200 hp banshee would be pretty unrideable, but within reason i dont know how too much is a bad thing... obviously you have to alter your paddles and swing arm to compensate, but...

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
I HEARD! that the LTR450 doesnt have as much HP as the other 450's... and the CB brings it right up to par.

The CB brings it a little past par I belive. My friend gutted the exhaulst, put a CB on it and took the airlid off and he couldn't be touched by anything but my banshee. Even then It was a very close race. He is a excellent rider though. He is very good at lauching his quad. Me I wasn't so good at lauching the banshee on asphault.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Yeah but my friends are now getting the new LTR450 and the 08 KFX450 when they come out.. and ill beable to beat them now while tehre stock but once they start to mod i will be left behind.

What are some things i can do to my TRX do give it more power..(besides a bore)

who knows about the KFX, but the suzuki is the slowest out of the existing 3...

throw a cam in there... adjust your gearing... etc...

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by 250r4life
who knows about the KFX, but the suzuki is the slowest out of the existing 3...

throw a cam in there... adjust your gearing... etc...

Yeah iv heard of the suzuk being the lowset of the 450's...

Any good site for a High performence cam?

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by 250r4life
i dont know about HRC kitted 450s beating big banshees... at least they shouldnt... there has to be other variables affecting the race- a lot more than just paddles...

sometimes in sand too much power is a bad thing? well obviously a 200 hp banshee would be pretty unrideable, but within reason i dont know how too much is a bad thing... obviously you have to alter your paddles and swing arm to compensate, but...

I seen it at the dunes. Might even have some vids. My friends 450 had a hrc kit and that was it. He beat some guys with big bore banshees. We couldn't belive it and ether could they. All I can think of is he could lauch off the line hard and they seemed to spin more. (the too much power thing). They seemed to have some big engines in stock chassis's. Stock chassis + Big engine = no traction.

So for somone on a budjet that can't offord alot of chassis stuff to get the power to the ground I would just stick with the 450.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
The CB brings it a little past par I belive. My friend gutted the exhaulst, put a CB on it and took the airlid off and he couldn't be touched by anything but my banshee. Even then It was a very close race. He is a excellent rider though. He is very good at lauching his quad. Me I wasn't so good at lauching the banshee on asphault.

i havent done anything to my YFZ that you havent just mentioned... i didnt use the CB obviously, i just rejetted, and i have not gotten beat by a single LTR on my YFZ... and i raced quite a few of them over thanksgiving... surely somebody out of who i raced was bound to be a good rider...

if you do the equivalent of what you do to the LTR to the YFZ, the YFZ will be faster still

[Slimyslipknot]

Im also thinking of experimenting in using this..

http://www.electricsupercharger.com/

It says it works on quads... and adds around 10 HP to a car... and if it adds 10HP to that big of a engine.. then to a small quad engine it must add alot more... It adds a instant boost at full throttle.

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by 250r4life
i havent done anything to my YFZ that you havent just mentioned... i didnt use the CB obviously, i just rejetted, and i have not gotten beat by a single LTR on my YFZ... and i raced quite a few of them over thanksgiving... surely somebody out of who i raced was bound to be a good rider...

if you do the equivalent of what you do to the LTR to the YFZ, the YFZ will be faster still

Did they have a CB? All I know both my friends are great riders and one has a LTR with CB and pipe. Other has a YFZ with pipe, cam mod, jetted, filter and the LTR walks away pretty good. Lots more tourqe.

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
Did they have a CB?
Im sure they had a CB.. i mean the CB is $30 who would not buy like 8 more HP for 30 bucks?

[Slimyslipknot]

I just watched some videos of KFX700 beating built banshees in drags.........

Whats up with liek the FPS, punisher stuff?

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
I just watched some videos of KFX700 beating built banshees in drags.........

Whats up with liek the FPS, punisher stuff?

Something is definitely wrong there. That thing is heavy. I can beat that thing with my 250R - sadly it has 65% more displacement too. Sounds like you've ridden some 250R's and aren't happy with it. Oddly though, its dominated racing since it's creation. Its not underpowered, especially with some simple mods. I think its just a matter of preference. I agree, you should stick with your 450 and not worry about being the baddest on the hill. It requires less shift timing precision (5speed) and is tractor enough to pull your weight around. Bottom line, ride what you have the most fun on.

To whoever said the 4strokes are more updated technology, I don't think you mean to overlook the fact that it requires a lot more displacement for a 450 to outperform a 250 - plus cam, valves, chain... yea, newer technology. If it were a 450 2stroke slaughtering a 450 4stroke what would you say then? Somehow that observation always sounds like "dirt wheels reader" to me. lol

[sandmanblue]

Slip -

I love all the comments from people that haven't even owned both a 450 and Banshee. Lots of good info there... not...

My '99 Banshee had the typical junk on it, T-5's, Pro-Flow filter, airbox lid removed, proper jetting, 4 degree timing key, cool head w/20cc domes. Wow. Exiting, huh? I was lucky to have 48 hp with all of that done to it. Yeah, I could have ported it, but then the powerband is so peaky that it's only good for hill racing. It's the complete opposite of what is needed for trails...

The 450's are MUCH better as an overall quad. It's not even a comparison.

The Banshees are ill handling, front heavy, peaky, have NO low end and a hard hit that is in no way a good choice to ride in technical trail areas. In the dunes, when the going gets tough and technical, you find yourself clutching it all the time and running at low rpm or else the abrupt power will launch you over dune crests. Yeah, you "can" make the Banshee motor have more bottom, but then it takes all the top end out of it. The only place the Banshee was any fun was on smooth hills. Just watch the number of boneheads with stock Banshee suspension trying to go through whoops at the bottom of Olds hill at speed - the rear end kicks all over the place. Either that, or their arms are stretched out to the max in order to load the rear end to keep it planted - compensating for the front end being so heavy... Major suspension work is needed, and you still are stuck with a poor turning chassis and terrible brakes.

As far as the other 450's making more power. :confused: I don't think so. Go look in the dyno room. All of them in lightly modded form will run in the 45 - 48 hp range. Once they get porting and high compression, they get to around 53+ hp. Of course, the Banshee guys are all going to quote 65 hp and talk about how much faster they are... Whatever. I guess that's why 450's are so popular then, huh?. If power was everything, then why won't these Banshee guys stuff 600cc 4 cylinder motors in the chassis and then tell us all how great a duner they built? I'm sure they'd make great trail quads too... :rolleyes:

Posting this in the Banshee thread is going to get the 2 stroke guys all excited :blah: If you posted this in the 450 section, you'd get more people leaning that way.

Look at it this way. The 250R and the Banshee are out of production. Your current 450R will rip with a little motor work. AND it will still be a much better quad.

Of course, this is just my own opinion. Maybe the best answer for you is to actually ride a Banshee and see for yourself - then post your comments.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue


Look at it this way. The 250R and the Banshee are out of production. Your current 450R will rip with a little motor work. AND it will still be a much better quad.



k, i can understand and even somewhat agree with some of the other argument you posted. however, this is irrelevant and ignorant...

the 250r has been out of production since 89, and until 2004 it was still leaps and bounds ahead of every other quad as an all around quad...

and the banshee is there for fun... i know it has no bottom end, i know it is heavy and handles for crap, but in the right situations there isnt a more fun bike...

[250r4life]

you know what... a lot of you guys sit there and say you need faster bikes, and you need to mod them out and get the big bores etc...

i think a lot of the problem is not your bikes- its your riding ability... learn how to ride and you wont need the fastest bike...

thats a lot of the fun for me- not only smoking people but smoking people with a lot more money into their bikes than i have...

my personal favorite was last dune season when i was on an 03 raptor with a pro design K&N, lid off, rev limiter, and baffle out, and i beat tons of piped raptors and even a couple trx 450s...

[Slimyslipknot]

I want to keep the 450.... mines a 2005 but what about when its 2008? My bike will be out of date, new stuff comming out on the newer bikes. With a banshee there all the same.

[sandmanblue]

"the 250r has been out of production since 89, and until 2004 it was still leaps and bounds ahead of every other quad as an all around quad... "


FYI - It's not 2004 anymore... So, actually what I said is relevant, even if you don't want it to be... In addition, statements and/or ideas cannot be "ignorant". People, however, can show ignorance quite well by the words they use and the opinions they profess... Some people do it much better than others....

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
I want to keep the 450.... mines a 2005 but what about when its 2008? My bike will be out of date, new stuff comming out on the newer bikes. With a banshee there all the same.

Huh? How can your 3 year old 450 be out of date when the Banshee hasn't changed since before many of the members here were even born??? 1989 Was the last year it was changed, if I remember correctly... Talk about out of date...

Anyway, if you are going to buy a second quad, then the Banshee might be a fun toy. If I were simply going to buy a hill shooter, I would buy a Banshee too. Then again, I wouldn't ride it on the track, trails, regular old duning - since I already have a much better quad for that.

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
In addition, statements and/or ideas cannot be "ignorant". People, however, can show ignorance quite well by the words they use and the opinions they profess... Some people do it much better than others....

I dare say you're not one of them. Not from this statement anyway. Sounds like baffling-with-bs to me. "statements and/or ideas cannot be "ignorant". People, however, can show ignorance quite well" What??

Anyway, you're about as passionate about the 450 as I am the 250R. So I get you on that level. Chalk up difference of opinions about which is more fun up to preference. But the day that massive rotating pile of metal of a top end can beat my 250R in any way shape or form with 250cc's is the day I'll concede that 4strokes are somehow any different than they always have been for many, many, before we were born years. My point is, that 450 is not new technology "as much as you want it to be". It's just a highly strung 4stroke which friend, is not a new idea. What IS new are EPA deadlines that discourage manufacturing of the simple, small, light 2stroke engine. By the way, the banshee is not out of production. It's just not legal to register the 07 in the US. Since your statement is not correct and I assume you believed it before you typed it, and since it's not your words that are ignorant, should I say then that you are? Just kidding.

Slimy, if you like 2strokes and want a tunable engine for duning, I personally don't think the banshee is all that bad. Porting doesn't involve moving parts and in the hands of a good tuner, can make you an engine that's got plenty of what you'd want. I personally think 2strokes are best at duning. I ride a 250R though because of the awesome engine and chassis combo, and I am also considering buying a banshee for longer cross country duning trips... These things are riding preference. Personally I wouldn't worry about your 05 being out of date by 08. A lot of people like those 450s; and the introduction of Fuel Injection is going to be mandatory by EPA standards. It's not necessarily because it increases performance. It's just more smog equipment, cost passed on to you. This also means that it won't be legal to sell the 450 setup you own today (sound familiar?). Riding is about having fun. So pick what is FUN for you and stop worrying about keeping with the ky'd a**es of the dirt wheels jones's!

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
"the 250r has been out of production since 89, and until 2004 it was still leaps and bounds ahead of every other quad as an all around quad... "


FYI - It's not 2004 anymore... So, actually what I said is relevant, even if you don't want it to be... In addition, statements and/or ideas cannot be "ignorant". People, however, can show ignorance quite well by the words they use and the opinions they profess... Some people do it much better than others....

looky here retad! and yes, i left out the "r" on purpose...

you used the argument that since they are no longer being produced, that they are inferior... which IS NOT RELEVANT! let me guess, youre going to tell me the reason they quit making the R in 89 is because it had been surpased? and thats the same reason they never brought it back, because the new bikes were so much better? c'mon, lets hear it...

so like i said, the fact that they are no longer being produced is neither here nor there... and if you still maintain that it is, then youre exactly right- people may show ignorance quite well!!! and you would be showing it much better than most i have come across.

furthermore- if this new technology is so bad and so much further ahead, then why did you have to go put a big bore on yours? why did you have to go mod it? if we are allowed to do engine mods now, then your 450 inst any better than the 250r. i can put a lot less into a 250r and have a bike that handles better, is lighter, and will smoke your 450...

i guess it didnt help that you went with the trx 450- i guess i now know why you had to go get the big bore- to keep up with the YFZ...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue


Of course, this is just my own opinion.

yah, and a not too bright one at that...

just to let you know this is coming from a guy that said a 40 ft lb torqued 450 would beat a 80 hp banshee

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
I dare say you're not one of them. Not from this statement anyway. Sounds like baffling-with-bs to me. "statements and/or ideas cannot be "ignorant". People, however, can show ignorance quite well" What??

Anyway, you're about as passionate about the 450 as I am the 250R. So I get you on that level. Chalk up difference of opinions about which is more fun up to preference. But the day that massive rotating pile of metal of a top end can beat my 250R in any way shape or form with 250cc's is the day I'll concede that 4strokes are somehow any different than they always have been for many, many, before we were born years. My point is, that 450 is not new technology "as much as you want it to be". It's just a highly strung 4stroke which friend, is not a new idea. What IS new are EPA deadlines that discourage manufacturing of the simple, small, light 2stroke engine. By the way, the banshee is not out of production. It's just not legal to register the 07 in the US. Since your statement is not correct and I assume you believed it before you typed it, and since it's not your words that are ignorant, should I say then that you are? Just kidding.

Slimy, if you like 2strokes and want a tunable engine for duning, I personally don't think the banshee is all that bad. Porting doesn't involve moving parts and in the hands of a good tuner, can make you an engine that's got plenty of what you'd want. I personally think 2strokes are best at duning. I ride a 250R though because of the awesome engine and chassis combo, and I am also considering buying a banshee for longer cross country duning trips... These things are riding preference. Personally I wouldn't worry about your 05 being out of date by 08. A lot of people like those 450s; and the introduction of Fuel Injection is going to be mandatory by EPA standards. It's not necessarily because it increases performance. It's just more smog equipment, cost passed on to you. This also means that it won't be legal to sell the 450 setup you own today (sound familiar?). Riding is about having fun. So pick what is FUN for you and stop worrying about keeping with the ky'd a**es of the dirt wheels jones's!

Keeping it civil here...

Have you owned a 450? If not, you don't know what you're missing...

I don't think you can really appreciate them until you race them or dune them. I will contest the notion that 2 strokes are better dune motors. But, that's based on my 30+ years of racing 2 strokes as well as riding the dunes with them, then finally going to the thumper.

I hope Slimeyslip gets the chance to ride a Banshee and tell us what he thinks about it... Should be a good topic - especially if people with the inability to spell simple words like Warrior stay out of the conversation.

Thankfully, there's the ignore user button :D

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Keeping it civil here...

Have you owned a 450? If not, you don't know what you're missing...

I don't think you can really appreciate them until you race them or dune them. I will contest the notion that 2 strokes are better dune motors. But, that's based on my 30+ years of racing 2 strokes as well as riding the dunes with them, then finally going to the thumper.



that explains it all right there... over 30+ years of racing... what does that mean? lots of wisdom and he knows it all and his opinion is the one that we should listen to? no- it means he has gotten old... that 2 stroke thrill no longer thrills him, it scares him. that work required to put into a 2 stroke to make it perform correctly wears him out, and he would rather have an easier ride... rather have the ability to be lazy and use that torque... now im not saying that is bad, but obviously his age has altered his preference.

youre past your prime- physically and mentally. and obviously its a bell shaped curve and there are a lot of people on here who havent started sloping upwards...

and yes, i did spell warrior incorrectly. i would rather be off on one character than be retarded in a whole theory and train of thought.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Then again, I wouldn't ride it on the track, trails, regular old duning - since I already have a much better quad for that.

and if we want to look for small and simple little things, technically there should be an "OR" after "trails,"

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Anyway, if you are going to buy a second quad, then the Banshee might be a fun toy. If I were simply going to buy a hill shooter, I would buy a Banshee too. Then again, I wouldn't ride it on the track, trails, regular old duning - since I already have a much better quad for that.

this is exactly my point about ignorance... this is what i am getting at...

nobody is arguing that 450s are better for the track... nobody is arguing that the 450s are head and shoulders above the banshee in handling and suspension...

and you wouldnt buy a banshee for regular old duning because you have a much better bike... who says? that is entirely subjective. people dont buy banshees for the track or for the suspension- they buy them for other purposes. i could buy a banshee right now, do a few mods to it, and would have no complaints about it. would it fulfill my every need- of course not... but a banshee is what it is.... it would serve its purpose...

its like youre comparing a ford lightning to a duramax... sure the duramax will tow better than the lightning... you think any single lightning owner is bothered by that? they didnt buy it to tow... just like banshee owners didnt buy banshees to be a track bike...
back to the lightning and duramax- both will get you around town- its just a matter of how you like it... same with the banshee and the 450s... both will get you around the dunes, its just a matter of how you like it...

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
I hope Slimeyslip gets the chance to ride a Banshee and tell us what he thinks about it... Should be a good topic - especially if people with the inability to spell simple words like Warrior stay out of the conversation.

I have ridden a banshee before.. it was my brothers.. i liked it cause it was fast.. but i only rode it in a straight line, but it was to built up for my needs/liking, and was a twist throttle which i didnt like..

I want a banshee that has some mods... like pipe/filter/ported, and some minor mods. This one was bored and was tottaly built up by duncan racing.

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
I have ridden a banshee before.. it was my brothers.. i liked it cause it was fast.. but i only rode it in a straight line, but it was to built up for my needs/liking, and was a twist throttle which i didnt like..

I want a banshee that has some mods... like pipe/filter/ported, and some minor mods. This one was bored and was tottaly built up by duncan racing.

Did you have your 450 at that time?

If you have the funds, you can always buy a decent used one that you can do what you want to it, then sell it later if you don't like it.

Personally, I would spend a little on your 450 before doing anything. You might be really surprised at what can be done with that motor with just a piston, port and cam. If you still have the stock piston and cam, you're really missing out... You'll definitely spank your friends 450's by getting this done, and you'll still have a great trail quad too.

You could go with a 12.25:1 piston, HotCam2 and some porting from several good places - pm me if you want a recommendation - all for about $700 - $800. You'd be over 50 hp at that point. :D

BTW - there are other places on the web that have much better info for the trx.

[sandmanblue]

Just curious as to why you are always talking so great about the 250r, when a) you bought a yfz, b) you blew up second gear on the 250r, and c) don't even own the 265 PV cylinder anymore... Seems like the $1800 you spent on that cylinder wasn't a great idea now was it?

All that took was a little browsing. Seems like in the whopping 24 years of your life, you've accumulated so much information and experience, yet, you've never raced a day in your life, and haven't owned very many quads at all. Never got that 250r on the dyno either...

For somebody that always has something to say about things and always has to knock what other people have to say when you don't agree, you sure don't seem to have the background to back it up. Maybe it's short guy syndrome. Must be it. Gotta prove how smart you are in order to compensate for being short.

Just thought I'd do you a favor and let other people know a bit about you... Call me names if you want... I don't care.

Let the flaming begin - cuz that's all you got kid... Have fun too. If I get you angry enough, maybe the mods will step in and finally ban you...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue


Let the flaming begin - cuz that's all you got kid... Have fun too. If I get you angry enough, maybe the mods will step in and finally ban you...


thats the funny thing- you (and many other people on here) think i let something on here get me angry... i dont... yah i may write like im angry, but its just for amusement. i dont take too much on here seriously... if i saw you at the bottom of the hill at the dunes this weekend i'd joke with ya and race ya a few times...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Just curious as to why you are always talking so great about the 250r, when a) you bought a yfz, b) you blew up second gear on the 250r, and c) don't even own the 265 PV cylinder anymore...


what does B) and C) have to do with anything?

so if you break something on your 450 it means its not a great bike anymore? i can almost gurantee your 450 wont last as long as my R did... remember that my 250r had its 1st repair for something breaking in dec of 2005...

nope- i dont on the 265 pv cylinder anymore.... i loved that bike before i had the cylinder, and it will still be a great bike after... what does that have to do with anything that i dont own the cylinder anymore? shoot i'll probably even get rid of the bike, but i will still profess what a good bike it was/is.

and i explained why i bought the yfz in another thread, so go ahead and go fetch that one...

i talk so good about the 250r cuz you talk like its a chump and i talk like its a legend, which it is...

and even though i have a YFZ, i will admit that i have more fun on my R then i do on my YFZ

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Seems like the $1800 you spent on that cylinder wasn't a great idea now was it?


fyi- i didnt spend $1800 on that cylinder... i said thats what it would cost you if you went to duncan to buy it new...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue

Never got that 250r on the dyno either...



nope- i never got my 250r on the dyno... sure didnt...
my question to you is... why? dyno HP is only good for talking crap over the internet or messing with your buddies... what matters- being the 1st one up the hill. so as long as im not getting beat up the hill, what does it matter?

my good buddy took his raptor 700 to the dyno, came out with 55 hp... and i got out on him and pulled away from him up the hill. its a good thing he took it to the dyno..

i dont let shops assemble my bikes- i do... in fact if its something that doesnt require tools i dont have (boring, nikasil) i do all my own work myself. that includes tuning my carb. so if i have my bike dialed in, running crisp, what need to i have to take it to a dyno?

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue

All that took was a little browsing. Seems like in the whopping 24 years of your life, you've accumulated so much information and experience, yet, you've never raced a day in your life, and haven't owned very many quads at all. Never got that 250r on the dyno either...

For somebody that always has something to say about things and always has to knock what other people have to say when you don't agree, you sure don't seem to have the background to back it up. Maybe it's short guy syndrome. Must be it. Gotta prove how smart you are in order to compensate for being short.

Just thought I'd do you a favor and let other people know a bit about you... Call me names if you want... I don't care.

Let the flaming begin - cuz that's all you got kid... Have fun too. If I get you angry enough, maybe the mods will step in and finally ban you...

dont act like you know me.

yep, i am 24 years old. youre right- there are people with a lot more experience than me- youre one of them. information is somewhat of a different story. you see i retain information faster than the majority of the population. In may i will graduate with honors from ASU in the accounting program. With my academic scholarship that i have there, i actually have been paid to go and get my degree. I am constantly on the Dean's List, and have done this all while working full time, riding a bunch, and hardly studying... I am fluent in Portuguese & Spanish, and understand about 50% of Italian... point being- i learn very easily and very quickly, and in my short 24 years on this earth i have learned quite a bit- bike included.

what background do i need to back my stuff up?

who says i have never raced a day in my life? again- dont act like you know mw.

i didnt think short man syndrome applied to intelligence. i knew it did physically, but not mentally.


flaming is all ive got huh? ive brought up many valid points and arguments, and all youve done is dodged them and had nothing in return. all you could bring up is that "hey im twice this guy's age so you guys should listen to my." all youve done is bring up things of no relevance.

[whoamack22]

250r- hey i have a question for you im looking at an elka rear shock for my 06 and i think it was used on an 05 yfz will it work on my 06?

[250r4life]

Originally posted by whoamack22
250r- hey i have a question for you im looking at an elka rear shock for my 06 and i think it was used on an 05 yfz will it work on my 06?

yes it should

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Keeping it civil here...

Have you owned a 450? If not, you don't know what you're missing...

I don't think you can really appreciate them until you race them or dune them. I will contest the notion that 2 strokes are better dune motors. But, that's based on my 30+ years of racing 2 strokes as well as riding the dunes with them, then finally going to the thumper.

I hope Slimeyslip gets the chance to ride a Banshee and tell us what he thinks about it... Should be a good topic - especially if people with the inability to spell simple words like Warrior stay out of the conversation.

Thankfully, there's the ignore user button :D

You know I've read what you've had to say in this thread, and like I said, though I respect your riding preference, you came out of the gate pretty strong about people's comments yourself. The first hting you stated was that Slimy should ride a banshee and a 450R. Well he has actually, so you're not so humbly wrong. You also said that the Banshee is out of production. There again, not so humbly wrong.

I don't have any beef with you personally, but before you go slamming people for having a strong statements about your strong statements, I think you need to use some of that long wisdom you have and realize, no one is going to do you any favors simply and only for being older. Just to let you know also, I don't hold much merit after hearing your other observations that after your 30+ years (very grandiose!) of experience, that you are CLEARLY an expert on what is a better dune machine. Do you really honestly think that your experience of 30 years makes you qualified to know what other people that aren't you are going to perfer in the sand? What it tells me, is close to what it tells Mark. That you're older and prefer the less racous dune ported 2strokes. It also tells me that what is good for you is not good for everyone, because I personally know from duning both that the 450 is not the motor for me.

So yes, I have ridden the 450 - both the TRX and YFZ. Why did you assume I don't have enough experience to know what I'm missing? You're so full of conjecture, how do you expect people to take your large amount of experience seriously, because it appears that you're willing to assume just about anything just to make a point. Either way, like I said, I personally don't prefer it. You like 4strokes in the sand. I don't mind them, but the fun factor that puts me out there for a long, dirty, uncivilized weekend is not a 4stroke. And I CERTAINLY am not lining up to pay for the smog equipment on them that makes them suitable for sale in the US.

I'd like to ask you your opinion about a question you asked earlier. Why do you personally think the 250R was only sold for 4 years, ending in the reduced production year 1989? You elluded I think that it was because it was an inferior machine - that was just my take. Please though, share your long wisdom on this and make it clear to us what you know about the short production run of the 250R fourtrax.

[Slimyslipknot]

If you take a 450R piped and airfiltered
vs a 250r Piped and airfiltered who would win?

asuming the racer is the same person

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
If you take a 450R piped and airfiltered
vs a 250r Piped and airfiltered who would win?

asuming the racer is the same person

Probably the 450. Though I can tell you that a bone stock 89 250R is not a slouch. It's light, very agile and has a nice, smooth powerband. They're slightly different in feel. I think the 450 is a little heavier and of course it has a 4stroke feel to it, but I think the 06 and up TRX450 has more stock hp.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
If you take a 450R piped and airfiltered
vs a 250r Piped and airfiltered who would win?

asuming the racer is the same person

i wont try and deny- the 450 will win. no question...

[250r4life]

and im still waiting to hear what credentials are needed in order for us to know anything about quads...

do i need to have the full 30+ years of racing, or what exact credentials do i need in order for my statements to contain any merit?

[250r4life]

im still waiting to be enlightened by the source of all wisdom and knowledge. where did that blue sand man go?

[Slimyslipknot]

I think i have made my decision, Im goign to stick with the 450, sicne i ride trails mostly.. and ima get a Hotcam to give more power for my draging.. and ill prolly get a smaller sprocket to give it more torque.

[sandmanblue]

Wise choice indeed!

You'll notice a huge difference with the cam. You are talking about the HC 2 right?

That is the cam to beat for an overall great powerband. I didn't realize you had the stock 14 tooth sprocket. The 13 will wake it up as well.

sandman just got owned

[iamjasyn]

sandman is a strange bugger...

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
sandman is a strange bugger...

Yep - strange to those that have no clue in life. Maybe you'll understand in a few years...

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Yep - strange to those that have no clue in life. Maybe you'll understand in a few years...

I was thinking the same about you. However, you're a slow learner and human life spans just aren't that long. Sorry about your bad luck.

[sandmanblue]

Slow learner?

I'm not the one stuck riding on a machine built in the late '80's...

I'm not sure if you three better exemplify slow learning, or a complete refusal to acquire knowledge... In either case, there is no open mindedness, logic or rational thought spewing from your keyboards. Must be the typist...

Whatever... I guess somebody has to ride those things. It gives everyone else something to point out and laugh at as you lose race after race...

See you at Glamis - or rather, you'll be seeing my rear end there... Have a nice day ;)

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Slow learner?

I'm not the one stuck riding on a machine built in the late '80's...

I'm not sure if you three better exemplify slow learning, or a complete refusal to acquire knowledge... In either case, there is no open mindedness, logic or rational thought spewing from your keyboards. Must be the typist...

Whatever... I guess somebody has to ride those things. It gives everyone else something to point out and laugh at as you lose race after race...

See you at Glamis - or rather, you'll be seeing my rear end there... Have a nice day ;)

Chuck, right? Sounds like I hit a nerve. It's funny to me to read your comments because they're pretty much what I think of you. You make assumptions to substantiate your arguments and then pass conjecture as fact. When asked rational questions or to clarify your points, you either reply with more conjecture or don't answer at all. I have the feeling you're an intellectual midget compared to me. You appear to lack critical thinking skills. Your scientific background is probably the sci-fi channel because clearly you tend to borrow from your imagination.

You prefer a 4stroke 450. Fine. I don't care. I just think you're stupid because you don't realize what all the many applications 2stroke engines are used for and WHY your 450 is here. Are you stupid or just in denial? It's not a matter of opinion. That's not a 250 4stroke is it? Hello?? When you realize that cc per cc your 4stoke will lose "race after race", then we can relate. And by the way, you're going to have trouble passing me on that thing and I'm on a 80's 270 with a less complicated design - CAN YOU SEE MY ONLY SIMPLE POINT? Does it make sense to you that an "80's" 270 can give your "new" 4stroke a run. I've raced 3 450's, all at least piped and they weren't trouble to pass....

I don't owe you anything, but I'll do you a favor. Read about your "new technology" 4stroke here (if your emotional filter and attention span can stand it):
2stroke vs 4stroke cost (http://www.all250r.com/UsefulContent/2strokeVs4strokeMaint.pdf)
world.honda environmental plans (http://world.honda.com/environment/2006report/04010000.html)
Since you may not have gotten much through your adolescent brain, here is an excerpt from Honda about the reason you can buy "new technolgoy" to replace "outdated" 2strokes. I bet the last article you read was in Dirt Wheels:
"Honda began as early as 1997 to take measures to discontinue the use of 2-stroke engines by the end of fiscal 2002. These simply structured 2-stroke engines had been adopted mainly in small motorcycles because of their superior output. Our goal was to replace them with more environment-friendly 4-stroke engine technology." cc per cc your 4stroke is basically a legislative work around Chuck. I'm laughing at you when you have trouble beating me doing anything on a 450.

Lastly, don't talk to me about seeing me in Glamis because I don't know about you but I am not a passive indivudual. If you want to put a beef past the keyboard, once again you're assuming a few things. I honestly suspect much of your perspectives you've developed over the wasted years of your life are derived from speculation and imagination, and for that I pity you. The real world once you have the courage to face learning about it objectively is a great place. Don't talk to me about seeing me in Glamis.

[Chin_Chilla]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Chuck, right? Sounds like I hit a nerve. It's funny to me to read your comments because they're pretty much what I think of you. You make assumptions to substantiate your arguments and then pass conjecture as fact. When asked rational questions or to clarify your points, you either reply with more conjecture or don't answer at all. I have the feeling you're an intellectual midget compared to me. You appear to lack critical thinking skills. Your scientific background is probably the sci-fi channel because clearly you tend to borrow from your imagination.

You prefer a 4stroke 450. Fine. I don't care. I just think you're stupid because you don't realize what all the many applications 2stroke engines are used for and WHY your 450 is here. Are you stupid or just in denial? It's not a matter of opinion. That's not a 250 4stroke is it? Hello?? When you realize that cc per cc your 4stoke will lose "race after race", then we can relate. And by the way, you're going to have trouble passing me on that thing and I'm on a 80's 270 with a less complicated design - CAN YOU SEE MY ONLY SIMPLE POINT? Does it make sense to you that an "80's" 270 can give your "new" 4stroke a run. I've raced 3 450's, all at least piped and they weren't trouble to pass....

I don't owe you anything, but I'll do you a favor. Read about your "new technology" 4stroke here (if your emotional filter and attention span can stand it):
2stroke vs 4stroke cost (http://www.all250r.com/UsefulContent/2strokeVs4strokeMaint.pdf)
world.honda environmental plans (http://world.honda.com/environment/2006report/04010000.html)
Since you may not have gotten much through your adolescent brain, here is an excerpt from Honda about the reason you can buy "new technolgoy" to replace "outdated" 2strokes. I bet the last article you read was in Dirt Wheels:
"Honda began as early as 1997 to take measures to discontinue the use of 2-stroke engines by the end of fiscal 2002. These simply structured 2-stroke engines had been adopted mainly in small motorcycles because of their superior output. Our goal was to replace them with more environment-friendly 4-stroke engine technology." cc per cc your 4stroke is basically a legislative work around Chuck. I'm laughing at you when you have trouble beating me doing anything on a 450.

Lastly, don't talk to me about seeing me in Glamis because I don't know about you but I am not a passive indivudual. If you want to put a beef past the keyboard, once again you're assuming a few things. I honestly suspect much of your perspectives you've developed over the wasted years of your life are derived from speculation and imagination, and for that I pity you. The real world once you have the courage to face learning about it objectively is a great place. Don't talk to me about seeing me in Glamis. :macho

[CHEVYZ]

Well I like biscuits. :chinese:

[400eXr1d3rZ]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Chuck, right? Sounds like I hit a nerve. It's funny to me to read your comments because they're pretty much what I think of you. You make assumptions to substantiate your arguments and then pass conjecture as fact. When asked rational questions or to clarify your points, you either reply with more conjecture or don't answer at all. I have the feeling you're an intellectual midget compared to me. You appear to lack critical thinking skills. Your scientific background is probably the sci-fi channel because clearly you tend to borrow from your imagination.

You prefer a 4stroke 450. Fine. I don't care. I just think you're stupid because you don't realize what all the many applications 2stroke engines are used for and WHY your 450 is here. Are you stupid or just in denial? It's not a matter of opinion. That's not a 250 4stroke is it? Hello?? When you realize that cc per cc your 4stoke will lose "race after race", then we can relate. And by the way, you're going to have trouble passing me on that thing and I'm on a 80's 270 with a less complicated design - CAN YOU SEE MY ONLY SIMPLE POINT? Does it make sense to you that an "80's" 270 can give your "new" 4stroke a run. I've raced 3 450's, all at least piped and they weren't trouble to pass....

I don't owe you anything, but I'll do you a favor. Read about your "new technology" 4stroke here (if your emotional filter and attention span can stand it):
2stroke vs 4stroke cost (http://www.all250r.com/UsefulContent/2strokeVs4strokeMaint.pdf)
world.honda environmental plans (http://world.honda.com/environment/2006report/04010000.html)
Since you may not have gotten much through your adolescent brain, here is an excerpt from Honda about the reason you can buy "new technolgoy" to replace "outdated" 2strokes. I bet the last article you read was in Dirt Wheels:
"Honda began as early as 1997 to take measures to discontinue the use of 2-stroke engines by the end of fiscal 2002. These simply structured 2-stroke engines had been adopted mainly in small motorcycles because of their superior output. Our goal was to replace them with more environment-friendly 4-stroke engine technology." cc per cc your 4stroke is basically a legislative work around Chuck. I'm laughing at you when you have trouble beating me doing anything on a 450.

Lastly, don't talk to me about seeing me in Glamis because I don't know about you but I am not a passive indivudual. If you want to put a beef past the keyboard, once again you're assuming a few things. I honestly suspect much of your perspectives you've developed over the wasted years of your life are derived from speculation and imagination, and for that I pity you. The real world once you have the courage to face learning about it objectively is a great place. Don't talk to me about seeing me in Glamis.

That was EXTREMELY well put and thought out.

[Slimyslipknot]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
HC 2 right?

I didn't realize you had the stock 14 tooth sprocket. The 13 will wake it up as well.

13 tooth? thats for front sprocket isnt it? i was thinking rar sprocket. isnt that what i want?


and about the Hotcam2... where can i get it? i havnt heard of hotcam2. send me a link or somthing. thx.

[250r4life]

yes the 13 is for the front sprocket...

[250r4life]

like it has been said already- all sandman does it state his opinion and does not back it up... valid comments and arguments have been presented, and he simply dodges them...

if youre going to post contriversial information, be prepared to back up what you post... or just run around and avoid it like sandman does... wait a while... and then side bust on a later comment...

i said it before and ill say it again....sandman just got owned (and it wont be the last time either) :p

[sandmanblue]

Blah, blah, blah...


This is why there are no technical threads worth a damn on this entire site. Little pukes have to run off at the mouth and pretend to know things. Internet geniuses... :rolleyes: Sad part is, there are people actually looking to get good info from here, and you three mental giants have to screw it all up with complete BS about the evil EPA and how 2 strokes are the worlds greatest engine. Morons...


How about you come out and show me how bad those POS antiques you supposedly own actually run? The two local kiddies can come out to Speedworld. And that other wimp jasn will have to get his mommy to drive him to Glamis. I'll be ther over the 1/20 wknd. And again in Feb and March. If you pukes have what it takes, bring it on!

Put up or shut up little boys.

We'll bring vid cameras and post links to the races right here on this site. I can't wait to embarrass the f out of you.

Do you three have any balls - or is it all just a big show? Can you ride, or do you suck? I think it's the latter.

I'll put my money on every single one of you turning out to be complete puss wannabees that won't show or will make excuses about why they won't/can't meet this challenge.


BTW - the term "owned" is juvenile and lame. Little 12 year olds came up with it while playing video games. "Ooohhh You got owned"... OOOOHHHHH. What a great term. :rolleyes: I'm surprised you didn't type "pwned" like a true internet wannabee should.

[250r4life]

you still have not defended any of your arguments, neither have you come up with responses for any of the arguments stated against you...

all you have done is stated your opinion, not backed it, and finally have let a couple of "little pukes" get you worked up...

i find it hilarious that some 50 year old man is on these forums, and lets some "little kids" get him worked up... classic...

[250r4life]

and yes, theyre are people on here actually looking for information... so why dont you back up some of your information with reasoning, logic, or fact, and respond to our "false arguments" so that those people seeking the truth can find it, and not simply take your word for it because you have been riding for 30 years...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Blah, blah, blah...


This is why there are no technical threads worth a damn on this entire site. Little pukes have to run off at the mouth and pretend to know things. Internet geniuses... :rolleyes: Sad part is, there are people actually looking to get good info from here, and you three mental giants have to screw it all up with complete BS about the evil EPA and how 2 strokes are the worlds greatest engine. Morons...


How about you come out and show me how bad those POS antiques you supposedly own actually run? The two local kiddies can come out to Speedworld. And that other wimp jasn will have to get his mommy to drive him to Glamis. I'll be ther over the 1/20 wknd. And again in Feb and March. If you pukes have what it takes, bring it on!

Put up or shut up little boys.

We'll bring vid cameras and post links to the races right here on this site. I can't wait to embarrass the f out of you.

Do you three have any balls - or is it all just a big show? Can you ride, or do you suck? I think it's the latter.

I'll put my money on every single one of you turning out to be complete puss wannabees that won't show or will make excuses about why they won't/can't meet this challenge.


BTW - the term "owned" is juvenile and lame. Little 12 year olds came up with it while playing video games. "Ooohhh You got owned"... OOOOHHHHH. What a great term. :rolleyes: I'm surprised you didn't type "pwned" like a true internet wannabee should.

little pukes... Internet geniuses.... mental giants... Morons... little boys...

oh, this is much better than saying "you got owned..." :huh maybe in another 30 years i will have acquired enough knowledge to come up with such profound insults...

by the way- i have never said "you got owned" in my entire life...

[250r4life]

in all seriousness- i would like to hear your responses to the arguments presented thus far... so far you have just dodged them.

and i would like to know why the arguments presented do not deserve any merit.

and i am also waiting to know what credentials are needed in order that anybody should listen to a thing we say...

[250r4life]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sandmanblue
[B] I'll be ther over the 1/20 wknd. And again in Feb and March. If you pukes have what it takes, bring it on!
QUOTE]

were supposed to listen to a guy that cant spell there correctly?

you were the one that started that whole thing :D

oh man, i guess i better ask my mom to reserve that day to drive me down to glamis...

you sure showed us now didnt ya...

[iamjasyn]

Wow, I'm impressed at how insignificant you display yourself to be Chuck. I'm not impressed however by your counterpoints, because like we've said, you're not producing any. And a round of laughter too for how worked up you get and out of frustration fall to your only apparent defense - brawn over brains. "Hmm, since I'm mad and am up against the ropes, I'll just challenge them to an in person duo! - arrghghg!!" Chuck just to help you out, your challenge has nothing to do with the original argument, which at this point has just been that you don't have one! Talk about ruining a thread. What is your point anyway?? For the same reason, I'll say it again: you're interesting bugger.

So, if I don't show up to your juvenile challenge, (do you know the meaning of the word hypocrite?) does that mean our points in this thread are wrong, you idiot? It's VERY interesting how you're capable of telling us what you don't like about us, and then display those exact characteristics! I don't think there is a way to win an argument against you because it seems there is no common objective to the argument! If I entertain your childish ranting challenge, the first thing I'm going to do is ask you why your POS has to have 200 more cc's than me to call it a fair race (that actually is one of my thread-worthy points)? I can't believe following along with that is so unclear to you - refusal to open your eyes, or something I think you said? lol!

Ok, let's test your ability to follow along one more time. Can you intelligently answer that last question? I'll tell you what, if you can, and can ALSO tell me correctly why the TRX250R is no longer being made (because it sure sounds like you know), I will honestly see what I can do to show up for your race (I assume it's in Glamis?). If there is an intelligent response from you I'll see that you really had to dig down hard to open your eyes and that you really want this race, otherwise, I'm done helping you make an example of yourself.

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
the first thing I'm going to do is ask you why your POS has to have 200 more cc's than me to call it a fair race (that actually is one of my thread-worthy points)? I can't believe following along with that is so unclear to you - refusal to open your eyes, or something I think you said? lol!

Ok, let's test your ability to follow along one more time. Can you intelligently answer that last question? I'll tell you what, if you can, and can ALSO tell me correctly why the TRX250R is no longer being made (because it sure sounds like you know), I will honestly see what I can do to show up for your race (I assume it's in Glamis?).


Okay - that's easy and it's been said before.

The displacement difference is because your 2 stroke fires one power stroke every 360 degrees of engine revolution, wheras the 4 stroke fires one power stroke every 720 degrees of engine revolution. For any given rpm, the 2 stroke fires its cylinder twice as often - hence the factor of 2 in comparing the displacements. The only way to compensate for the 2X factor in firing frequency would be a 2X displacement factor or a 2X cylinder factor. I am quite confident that a 2 cylinder 4 stroke with 250cc's total displacement would easily make the same power as a 250cc single cylinder 2 stroke. But, AMA rules do not allow multi-cylinder motors for MX, so they have not been developed. The lone examples I have are the Aprilia 450 and 550 v-twin bikes that are fairly new. I believe they are targeting supermoto with those models as the rules are different - but don't quote me on that - I haven't looked that particular item up.

Continuing on with a cc for cc discussion here is pointless. The AMA and other race sanctioning bodies who are far more familiar with making rules that make things as fair as possible than I am, are the ones that came up with these classifications. If anyone wants to argue this on the basis of equal displacement, take that up with the AMA...

Secondly, Honda stopped making the 250R because at that time, they were facing many legal challenges on the safety of ATV's. Honda, being the conservative company that it is, pulled back from performance ATV's in order to prevent the possibility of getting sued in this wonderfully lawsuit happy land we live in.

The only reason I even responded to you personally is because you seem to be willing to prove your point with an actual race. Until the other two guys step up, I won't bother with any responses to them.

For the record, I'll refrain from the sarcasm and name calling so long as any replies will follow suit.

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Okay - that's easy and it's been said before.

The displacement difference is because your 2 stroke fires one power stroke every 360 degrees of engine revolution, wheras the 4 stroke fires one power stroke every 720 degrees of engine revolution. For any given rpm, the 2 stroke fires its cylinder twice as often - hence the factor of 2 in comparing the displacements. The only way to compensate for the 2X factor in firing frequency would be a 2X displacement factor or a 2X cylinder factor. I am quite confident that a 2 cylinder 4 stroke with 250cc's total displacement would easily make the same power as a 250cc single cylinder 2 stroke. But, AMA rules do not allow multi-cylinder motors for MX, so they have not been developed. The lone examples I have are the Aprilia 450 and 550 v-twin bikes that are fairly new. I believe they are targeting supermoto with those models as the rules are different - but don't quote me on that - I haven't looked that particular item up.

Continuing on with a cc for cc discussion here is pointless. The AMA and other race sanctioning bodies who are far more familiar with making rules that make things as fair as possible than I am, are the ones that came up with these classifications. If anyone wants to argue this on the basis of equal displacement, take that up with the AMA...

Secondly, Honda stopped making the 250R because at that time, they were facing many legal challenges on the safety of ATV's. Honda, being the conservative company that it is, pulled back from performance ATV's in order to prevent the possibility of getting sued in this wonderfully lawsuit happy land we live in.

The only reason I even responded to you personally is because you seem to be willing to prove your point with an actual race. Until the other two guys step up, I won't bother with any responses to them.

For the record, I'll refrain from the sarcasm and name calling so long as any replies will follow suit.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the civil tone. I always think it's a situation of denial though myself when 4stroke fans try to overlook the cc issue between the two platforms. If it's not denail, it's arrogance and marketing trendiness. It's cc's that make the difference between motors when comparing power output between motor styles. How much power is your motor making given a certain volume of combustable gases? If it weren't about cc's, then the AMA would have no cc rules at all. My only point with regard to the entire debate between which is "better" is that 2strokes make more power than 4strokes with a less complicated design. Obviously if you increase the displacement of a 4stroke it gets more powerful - but that is the same with the 2stroke as well. So like you said it's been said before. It's not a matter of opinion. So to me the debate of power isn't a debate. The only debate is preference for which feel you like better. And that is where my argument ends. I prefer the feel of a 2t, others the 4t. Happily ever after...

For the technical assertion about a 250 4stroke twin being equal power to a 250 2stroke. I don't think that is technicaly accurate. Each cylinder when it fires will only make half the power as a single cylinder given a certain displacement (there's that displacement issue again). All having more pistons does is spread out the power. It does not by itself increase it. And another thing. Honda is making a GP 250cc 2stroke street track bike (of course like 2stroke ATV's now, can't be registered) that puts out over 90hp. A 250!

Again, the only thing worth talking about with regard to a comparison between the two platforms is that of preference. Because it is a fact, not an opinion that 2strokes put out more power than 4strokes - cc per cc AND do it with a less complicated design! What a bargain! The only reason I'm mentioning this again, is because you mentioned that 250R's are outdated - which I assume you mean that 2strokes are outdated. 2strokes are used in aircraft carriers today. Did you know that? Can you picture lugging a 4stroke chainsaw up a tree, or flying your model airplane with a 4stroke? Like Honda said themselves in that page I posted earlier, 2strokes were adopted because of their superior output and have being replaced with a solution that is environment-friendly. The reason I hammer on guys who say 2strokes are outdated is because they are just flat wrong, uninformed or trendy happy.

Regarding the history of the TRX250R. The way I heard it Honda agreed to not produce a high performance ATV for 10 years, ending the TRX250R. In 99 they made the 400ex however the 250R continued to dominate racing and the 400ex until the 04, maybe even 05? Hat's off to the 450R. It's powerful and has an easy power curve. It's still not for me though, for more than one reason.

So, I'm not saying your 477 won't beat my 270. I AM saying though that it's certainly not saying anything positive about 4stroke power.

As for the original thread. I think the man did good staying with his 450. There are many factors to consider and it sounded to me like the high strung, good chassis 4stroke might suit him better than the upgrade needy, albiet power friendly banshee. Banshees probably make better XC bikes though, imo.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue


The only reason I even responded to you personally is because you seem to be willing to prove your point with an actual race. Until the other two guys step up, I won't bother with any responses to them.



an actual race between your bike and my bike does not prove a dang thing...
i go to gordons well, and i dont care enough about it to go over to glamis to race you... i occasionally go over to glamis about once a season, and if i happen to have a trip planned, i will let you know... if you are to be over at gordons well, let me know, and we will race...
secondly- assuming you dont completely suck at riding, i would hope that your 477 R with a bunch of work done to it would beat me stock YFZ which doesnt even have a pipe... i smoke a lot of people with a lot more into their bikes than what i have, but my riding ability can only compensate for so much...
now if you have access to a more comparable bike to race me on, i would love to dance... it will show who has the riding skills, which i hope is the argument here as anybody can put a lot of money into a bike to make it fast...

so whether i race you or other people, i gurantee you will be impressed at how well i hold my own on a stock YFZ...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue


Secondly, Honda stopped making the 250R because at that time, they were facing many legal challenges on the safety of ATV's. Honda, being the conservative company that it is, pulled back from performance ATV's in order to prevent the possibility of getting sued in this wonderfully lawsuit happy land we live in.


oh, so the 250r wasnt discontinued because it was inferior like you inferred earlier... :devil:

[sandmanblue]

250r4life -

a) the challenge was for your 250R. That IS what we have been discussing, right? Lining them up to run is exactly the best way to end this ridiculous discussion. If it's not your idea of fun, then let's drop it. I still would enjoy the track time and a few starting line drags.

It is the opinion that the 250R is better and not outdated that we are debating. It is my contention that it has been surpassed by the 450R in both acceleration as well as track performance. I have read in several posts that (and I can't remember who's post it was - doesn't matter) there seems to be an opinion that the 250R is still a better choice for MX and that the only reason that the 450 exists was to meet environmental restrictions. It has been noted that (if we use pro level riders as the benchmark) lap times are faster when these guys ride their 450's. There may be some exceptions, but when both 250's and 450's could race together, the 450's started to take over. Considering the years of development put into the 250 quads, they had reached their peak and the 450's were still being developed and refined. That is still the case. There has been but a few years of 450 development and they will continue to be refined, whereas the 250r development has come to a near standstill. I do not know how anyone could interpret that as being anything other than outdated.

b) I never implied that the 250R was discontinued because it was outdated. If you can find a quote of mine that could be interpreted that way, I would like to see it. It was discontinued because Honda was afraid of lawsuit happy scumbag ambulance chasing lawyers and the liberal judges that were awarding ridiculous amounts of money to plaintiffs. Honda didn't want the ATV industry to get sued out of existence.



Now, as far as the 10 year thing - in short, the 3 wheelers were blamed for the actions of inept and completely irresponsible parents who allowed their children to ride what appeared to them to be a tricycle - usually without any safety gear whatsoever. Then, accidents happened and the media had a field day. 60 minutes even fabricated a blatantly biased story on 3 wheelers in which a "professional" rider rode over 3 foot whoops on an ATC90, at speed, with forks bent so the front tire would hit the frame, and he did it obviously leaning forward in order to cause an endo - all for the cameras. Then they blamed it on the machines inherently dangerous design. Lying POS scumbags! This is why I refuse to watch that POS show. Anyway, lawsuits were filed against Honda regarding 3 wheelers safety. A ban on 3 wheelers went into effect for 10 years. There were none made after 1987 (I owned the last 3 wheeler made by Honda - 1987 ATC200X). They continued on with the 250R quad until 1989. Other brands never stopped making performance quads - Banshee ring a bell??? So there was no ban. Honda voluntarily stopped making them.

Does that clear things up?

[sandmanblue]

Missed one point -

The current development of 450's and the lack of the factories continued production of 2 stroke ATV's are related in that these products are not sold as race only closed course vehicles. Therefore, they have to conform to restrictions that have been put in place by the infamous EPA. BUT... 2 strokes are alive and kicking as closed course mx bikes. They still make 125's and 250's. KTM makes a ton of 2 strokes and shows no sign of discontinuing them. With the rule changes allowing uo to 144cc 2 strokes in the lights class, we may very well see more 2 strokes in the future.

I suppose one could say that 2 strokes were banned by the EPA, but that only applies to "off road" vehicles, not closed course. So it's not really a ban. It a restriction that they can only be used in certain areas.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
250r4life -

a) the challenge was for your 250R. That IS what we have been discussing, right? Lining them up to run is exactly the best way to end this ridiculous discussion. If it's not your idea of fun, then let's drop it. I still would enjoy the track time and a few starting line drags.

It is the opinion that the 250R is better and not outdated that we are debating. It is my contention that it has been surpassed by the 450R in both acceleration as well as track performance. I have read in several posts that (and I can't remember who's post it was - doesn't matter) there seems to be an opinion that the 250R is still a better choice for MX and that the only reason that the 450 exists was to meet environmental restrictions. It has been noted that (if we use pro level riders as the benchmark) lap times are faster when these guys ride their 450's. There may be some exceptions, but when both 250's and 450's could race together, the 450's started to take over. Considering the years of development put into the 250 quads, they had reached their peak and the 450's were still being developed and refined. That is still the case. There has been but a few years of 450 development and they will continue to be refined, whereas the 250r development has come to a near standstill. I do not know how anyone could interpret that as being anything other than outdated.



a- I have not gotten around to replacing 2nd gear in the R, so it is currently out of comission...
2- when i do replace it, the stock top end that is all original, will be going back on it

d- no, i dont beleive that is what we were discussing this whole time...

i have already said that stock for stock or piped for piped the 450s are hands down faster.. no question... i never said the 250 was faster in that case... however, i did say that you were not working with a stock 450, and since big bores and etc were allowed, that with less money i could make a faster 250r...

as a matter of fact we were discussing the banshee at first, and the discussion has hopped around to several different items...

and a lot of our argument is that you talked a lot about things that are completely subjective, and passed your opinion off as fact...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue


b) I never implied that the 250R was discontinued because it was outdated. If you can find a quote of mine that could be interpreted that way, I would like to see it. It was discontinued because Honda was afraid of lawsuit happy scumbag ambulance chasing lawyers and the liberal judges that were awarding ridiculous amounts of money to plaintiffs. Honda didn't want the ATV industry to get sued out of existence.




Originally posted by sandmanblue


Look at it this way. The 250R and the Banshee are out of production. Your current 450R will rip with a little motor work. AND it will still be a much better quad.



if you will go and read the context of this quote, you were discussing how the 450s were superior and then continued on with this quote, as if to infer that the 250r and banshee are out of production because they are inferior...

both i and jason read it this way...

[firefighterjosh]

I didn't read everything but this thread makes me laugh.

1 thing I do not think "Chuck" is as old as he says. I don't know one old man that says my 450 is better then you 250r talk. PLus don't most older ppl like the older machines???:confused:

Anyways first the 250r was built...........years later they start making machines based of the geomitry of the 250r. Yes the new 450s are improved and ppl can handle the new 4-stroke power easier but with a good rider a 250r can still handel its own.

the reason you see 250s getting beat at the races is because there isn't very many of them. I see one a race. you put half the quads 250rs and half the feild 450s I am sure that the 250s would hold there own and win some races.

2-strokes have a peakier power band. (most the times) it is harder to keep it in the right RPMs for maximum power.

I guess what I am saying 4-strokes are easier to ride. Everyone can ride one which in turn makes more ppl buy them.

If You get a 450 and a 250r each with 15k dumped into them and put a rider on each that can handle them 100% I think you would have a good race on your hands.

[smokin 400]

i too am an old man like chuck and i have had my share of 250r's and banshees and numberous dirt bikes in the 2 and 4 stroke class. hell i even had a suzuki 500 quadzilla(biggest junk around). i see both peoples points here, but in all reality chuck has the inside on most everything mentioned. not saying anyone is wrong, but to have 30yrs ridind and racing expierence like chuck and myself do i think we know a little about old bikes and quads. see we were brought up to buy our own equipment ,do all our own wrenching and have the transportation to get to the tracks when we needed. now a days all these parents go out and buy jr a new yfz or 450r cause there friends have them and when they break they send them to the shop and pay outragous prices to get stuff fixed. my son is 18yrs old and he is riding a 250r that i bought brand new in 1988 and i sold it to him for 2200.00 bucks 2 yrs ago. he knows i wont buy him a new one if he wants it he is gonna work for it. today most people have big enclosed trailers or nice landscape trailers to haul there toys with, you wanna talk old school i used to haul a kx 250 in my trunk of a 1973 ford ltd and close the trunk lid. only problem was i had to run the bike outta fuel so it didnt leak gas a burn the car to the ground.

hey sandman and , i havnt been able to get on to this thread in a while..i am not some 45 year old in a midlife chrisis going out and buying the "best ATV according to dirtwheels" :D Its funny that you have nothing else to do but challenge people over the internet while video taping it....i can see the kind of person you are...:p

And to smokin 400

Some of us have jobs and pay for things on our own...yes i am 19, going on 20...i live on my own, pay for my own gas, insurence, quad, parts for it...you name it, my work truck, my daily driver dirt bikes should i go on? And i still find time to take care of my Mother... not everyone gets their mom and dad to buy them a 2007 LT-R 450...i bought for my 250r with my own money, restored it with my own money, and still work full time, 2 jobs, live on my own, ect....I have been working every summer and a ton of weekends since the 8th grade...and this is not a diss to you, i just want you to open your eyes just a tad

Now i have to go take care of a few things and get my butt into work...

ill finish this up later

[smokin 400]

maybe you were brought up old school also and to your parents i say excellent job. i wasnt being specific you know as well as i do it goes on in the outdoor toy playground. you have accomplished quite a bit for a young man and i commend you. to those who it offened im sorry. i just cant get over the cars some of the silver spoon kids drive anymore, hummers , bmw's and they know who they are. that is why the comment was made.

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by Honda86
hey sandman and , i havnt been able to get on to this thread in a while..i am not some 45 year old

And to smokin 400

Some of us have jobs and pay for things on our own...yes i am 19, going on 20...


Honda 86 - I had you pegged from the start. You have the audacity to judge my behaviour on this site and call it childish, yet you're a whopping 19 friggin years old. WOW! An amazing revelation. You're still a TEEN!

That explains the reluctance to show me how fast you are. That explains why you can't prove that your Banshee will "walk away" as you put it, from my quad. That explains why you have a big mouth and no balls. That's exactly why I posted the other thread about punks that have no respect and mouth off, but when push comes to shove, they hide like little children at night in a blanky.

You remind me of this little twerp I went fishing with years ago. I was 13 - he was 8. I was driving the boat and he wanted to go all over the place and kept yelling and screaming at me because he couldn't get his way. I finally had enough and told him if he didn't STFU, I'd throw him out of the boat. He continued to mouth off and all I did was stand up - he peed his pants and started crying...


Needless to say, if you can't back up what you are saying, then you're the poser internet wannabee that is full of complete BS. All you got is name calling left, cuz you certainly don't have the guts to prove jack.

BTW - to use a term even YOU might understand... who's "owned" now, punk?

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
I didn't read everything but this thread makes me laugh.

1 thing I do not think "Chuck" is as old as he says.

Not your fight Josh. I have more gray hairs than I care to have.

I put my money where my mouth is. Like it or not. If somebody calls me out - I'm right there. I am also not afraid to call out somebody that can't prove jack and keeps spewing crap from their keyboard.

I always start off in a civil manner - go check the threads. I don't throw the first punch, but I also don't cower in the corner either.

Maybe the younger crowd hasn't seen much of what happens when you push older people. Maybe their parents are gutless and let them roll over them too much. Now the kids think they own the world.

If so. they have a rude awakening coming. There's plenty of people like me that have had it with the 15 - 25 year old punks that think they can get away with anything they want, think they know everything, but don't know how much they don't know....


Unless there is something productive left in this thread. I can't envision me posting anything more...

[250r4life]

i will have to say that i am embarrassed in regards to some of the people who are arguing on "my side." and to be honest, with the exception of iamjason, i dont agree too much with a lot of the other people and feel the same way chuck feels about them.

also, its pretty much been chuck, jason, and i that have been going back and forth for the past few pages, and i felt we were actually going somewhere finally, and then we had a bunch of sidebusters jumping in ruining all the progress we had just had...

[250r4life]

again, that sux that we were actually getting down to a civil conversation, and people had to come mess it up...

even though you may characterize me as one of these 15-25 year old punks who knows nothing and mom and dad buys everything for, which i dont beleive i fall into either, i can see your frustrations with a lot of the younger users...

i play devils advocate a lot on this site, and it is entertaining a lot of the information that is posted on this site...

to some users the 250r hung the moon and it is superior in every category to every other bike... to others the 450s are the best things since sliced bread... the fact of the matter is different bikes excell in different areas, and what is important to each individual is highly subjective... if it wasnt, nobody would own a banshee... but obviously, is is subjective and where the banshee crowd places the most value is where the banshee thrives- in that powerband...

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
250r4life -

a) the challenge was for your 250R. That IS what we have been discussing, right? Lining them up to run is exactly the best way to end this ridiculous discussion. If it's not your idea of fun, then let's drop it. I still would enjoy the track time and a few starting line drags.

It is the opinion that the 250R is better and not outdated that we are debating. It is my contention that it has been surpassed by the 450R in both acceleration as well as track performance. I have read in several posts that (and I can't remember who's post it was - doesn't matter) there seems to be an opinion that the 250R is still a better choice for MX and that the only reason that the 450 exists was to meet environmental restrictions. It has been noted that (if we use pro level riders as the benchmark) lap times are faster when these guys ride their 450's. There may be some exceptions, but when both 250's and 450's could race together, the 450's started to take over. Considering the years of development put into the 250 quads, they had reached their peak and the 450's were still being developed and refined. That is still the case. There has been but a few years of 450 development and they will continue to be refined, whereas the 250r development has come to a near standstill. I do not know how anyone could interpret that as being anything other than outdated.

b) I never implied that the 250R was discontinued because it was outdated. If you can find a quote of mine that could be interpreted that way, I would like to see it. It was discontinued because Honda was afraid of lawsuit happy scumbag ambulance chasing lawyers and the liberal judges that were awarding ridiculous amounts of money to plaintiffs. Honda didn't want the ATV industry to get sued out of existence.



Now, as far as the 10 year thing - in short, the 3 wheelers were blamed for the actions of inept and completely irresponsible parents who allowed their children to ride what appeared to them to be a tricycle - usually without any safety gear whatsoever. Then, accidents happened and the media had a field day. 60 minutes even fabricated a blatantly biased story on 3 wheelers in which a "professional" rider rode over 3 foot whoops on an ATC90, at speed, with forks bent so the front tire would hit the frame, and he did it obviously leaning forward in order to cause an endo - all for the cameras. Then they blamed it on the machines inherently dangerous design. Lying POS scumbags! This is why I refuse to watch that POS show. Anyway, lawsuits were filed against Honda regarding 3 wheelers safety. A ban on 3 wheelers went into effect for 10 years. There were none made after 1987 (I owned the last 3 wheeler made by Honda - 1987 ATC200X). They continued on with the 250R quad until 1989. Other brands never stopped making performance quads - Banshee ring a bell??? So there was no ban. Honda voluntarily stopped making them.

Does that clear things up?

Chuck, I commend you for not being a roll over guy. I do however think that if you're being assertive, you'd best cover your bases and part of that means owning up to your initial posts as being a bit on the antagonistic side. That doesn't offend me though. I do however think you haven't read my last post carefully enough for us to come to a conclusion here.

topic a) Even if you win, and you likely may, you're still doing it with a bigger motor. My point: That's not much to be boasting about the virtues of a 4stroke with...

The 250R has not topped out... It was last developed in 89 as you say. This means it has not benefitted from the advantages of newer developments such as a powervalve for example. By the way, the CR of the same era put out more hp than the TRX version. The TRX came detuned by design. Again, a 250 2stroke being put out by Honda themselves today is putting out over 90hp. The platform is NOT out of date. Remember this is a mcrocosm of applications we're discussing (ATV's). Either way, it's a smaller displacement engine than a 450. So my point is the same. Think of it this way too. If you were Honda, and you wanted to make a successful successor to the 250R, wouldn't you make it faster? So I'll give you the road that stock for stock the 450 is faster than a 250R (and yes, some random people think that even if track times are faster on a 450, the 250R is still a better handling quad). I don't think that is saying much for the 450 though. My argument is not about the specific application because size wise, this is an apples and oranges discussion. My argument is the basic platform itself. As a platform, 2strokes are not outdated and yes the 450 is here because of EPA legalities. If the R itself is considered outdated when compared against the basically more powerful 450R, then I say, yes, but my "outdated" R is cheaper to fix, easier to upgrade and less of a worry to diagnose and get running normally again. So, if you were to look at the two side by side, which would you be inclinded to say is "outdated"? If I weren't aware of the timeline of these engines, I'd say the one that has to get the job done with a bigger engine, and more complicated design is the "outdated" platform. I'm a software engineer and I have to design functional things to be used in the real world as well. In my experience, the solution that does the intended job with less work, less complication and less maintenance is the better design. Any layman should be able to agree with that I think. The bigger picture in ATV's and racing though is a political and money making one. I'm not an expert here, but I think it stands to reason that Honda is not going to promote 2strokes on the track on Sunday with sponsored riders and marketing, only to have to sell the consumers a registerable 4stroke on Monday. They put their money into making the 4stroke a consumer ready alternative instead - a larger, more complicated engine that in stock form, by the way, just edges out an 80's detuned 2stroke setup. I think my point is clear here by now. Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't be proud of your 450. It's fast and has a broader hp range than my R. I'm glad you love it and I hope you continue to. Again though, it's not where my dollars for ME are going.

topic b) I didn't say manufacturer's in general entered into a 10 year discontinuation agreement. I said Honda did. It's obvious to me and everyone that Yamaha and Suzuki for example continued to make them past 89. We didn't see the 400ex until 99 however. This is just what I've heard though. I don't know the details or even how true it is. I was just saying that, that is how I heard it. And, like you said, there was a lot of sue-fear going on back then around ATV's, which I agree is the result of competely ball-less, can't be responsible for my own decisions parents that both they and their kids who if they were to grow up to be the same ball-less, whiny adults, then in reality probably just needed to be taken out of the gene pool with an ATC anyway. Kids meeting their end prematurely is tragic for sure, but so is their destiny if they grow into parasitic adults. I just wonder how much of a role ATV's play in pollution when I can't drive into LA without seeing an orange horizon. Money and pollitics run the world and Honda and high strung, complicated, large (fast and broad powerband!), "environment-friendly" 450's are no different.

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by 250r4life
again, that sux that we were actually getting down to a civil conversation, and people had to come mess it up...

even though you may characterize me as one of these 15-25 year old punks who knows nothing and mom and dad buys everything for, which i dont beleive i fall into either, i can see your frustrations with a lot of the younger users...

i play devils advocate a lot on this site, and it is entertaining a lot of the information that is posted on this site...

to some users the 250r hung the moon and it is superior in every category to every other bike... to others the 450s are the best things since sliced bread... the fact of the matter is different bikes excell in different areas, and what is important to each individual is highly subjective... if it wasnt, nobody would own a banshee... but obviously, is is subjective and where the banshee crowd places the most value is where the banshee thrives- in that powerband...

;)

Good to hear all of that.

Good post from iamjaysn too. I understand what you are saying.

I will not argue the simplicity of the 2 stroke, nor the lower cost of maintenance - never have. I would contend that even though Honda stopped production in 89 of the ATV motor, it continued with 2 stroke development and still has them in it's lineup as an 85, 125 and 250. But, the amount of effort put into the 2 stroke - even including KTM has diminished. My opinion is that it is not so much a matter of profit potential as it is power potential.

Look at how far thumpers have come in just the last 8 years. We are finally seeing the fruits of all that streetbike motor development coming our way. With a 4 stroke, to make more power, you simply spin it faster. I know that is simplistic, but that doesn't apply nearly as well to 2 strokes. Th ethumper has such a wide powerband, that if it gets narrowed down through higher rpm/more power modifications, it will still not be as peaky as the two stroke.

It's a matter of usable rpm width.


I don't know about that 90 hp thing you're talking about. Go HERE (http://world.honda.com/WGP/spec/) to see what I see...

It looks to me that there are two 250 cc bikes. One is a V-5 5 cylinder 4 stroke and the other is a V-twin 2 stroke. The power numbers listed are very different as well. I see 240 from the thumper and 90 from the 2 stroke.... Units are (PS) - whatever that is...

If it is HP, then 240 hp out of a 250 thumper! Holy Crap!

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Not your fight Josh. I have more gray hairs than I care to have.


I know its not my fight I am not trying to agrue just saying what I had to say.

Have a good Day:)

[sandmanblue]

After doing a little research, the v-twin 2 stroke does put out 90 hp. The v-5 4 stroke does also put out 240 hp....

Both are 250cc machines...



Anyone wanna argue about 2 stroke and 4 stroke potential anymore???? :D :D :D

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by firefighterjosh
I know its not my fight I am not trying to agrue just saying what I had to say.

Have a good Day:)

Okay - no problem!

[250r4life]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Okay - no problem!

josh sure didnt make a whole lot of sense now did he?

[firefighterjosh]

Originally posted by 250r4life
josh sure didnt make a whole lot of sense now did he?

HUH? About okay no problem? Or about all the BS that is on the last 6 pages?:confused:

[guesswho]

http://world.honda.com/WGP/spec/

240 horse power in a 250 2 stroke?
you are reading wrong,,its 990cc engine with over 240 horse power.

First off what does my age have to do with anything? I have done alot for a "teen" if thats what you want to call me, and yes id put my banshee up agenst your 450r in a drag ANY DAY...

For example i rode with a guy i know and he had a 2005 RMZ 450, with a pipe and few other things, he rode my banshee while i rode the bike. It was the most impressive 4 stroke i ever rode (and yes ive rode the quads too), after he got done with my banshee i asked if he wanted to drag and his words were "boy, i really dont wanna lose" and ill admit the 450 was fast, but my banshee would take it...now if you think your 450r quad coule take my banshee, put your money where your mouth is and meet me somewhere reasonable....I am in Flint MI but could meet u in Lapeer at the drag strip

and how could i remind you of someone if you never meet me? you dont know my type of work ethic, your just some 40+ year old that argues about the quad that u bought because of a midlife crisis...And i am not someone that would "run away" as you put it when the tough gets going...as a matter of fact, id put my work ethic, heart and bravery up agenst yours anytime. I am not trying to pick a fight here, just defending when i get lashed out at

the funnest part of this whole thing is my last post i wrote out before i went to work, now i come home and see that sandman hasnt done nothing but made posts about this topic and surfing the net...what do you do for a living? what makes you such a tough old man?

Sandman, i dont understand why you think your 450R could run with my banshee, after my banshee walks away from YFZ450, raptor 700s and DS 650s, and other 450Rs....but i guess yours is magical huh? :p

what exactly is done to you thumper? how much did you spend in the motor? because the HP numbers i am sitting at right now, i have NEVER seen a 450 hit....but then again, your so bad i guess you have something special?

haha, ur reading wrong sandman...go get your eyes checked :p


On a sidenote (i dont want to get anymore off topic) one thing i never understood was only in motocross do they allow 4 stroke to have higher displacement...in other racing like snocross the 600s, run with 600s....you dont see RX1s running with the ski doo 550s or 600s anyone know why?

Also anyone see the new 1100 artic cat 4 stroke? they are braggin it up cuz it can run with the 600 2 strokes now...itll be a long time (if ever) they make those big bore 4 stroke run with the 800s, built or not

[250r4life]

lets hear whats done your banshee...

my banshee has, pipes, v force reeds, advanced timing, 34mm carbs, K & N clamp ons, full drag porting, and when i had the porting done i also got it .020 over just to clean everything up, I was running a 16 front tooth sprocket but just went down to 15 because i was riding more trails then fields at the time, i may go back up to 16, i also have holeshots in the rear...my jetting is right on (got specs from the guy who did the port work out in NY) also has a cool head with 19cc domes to bump up the compresion a bit...

A banshee with similar set up got on the dyno and was just under 70...i feel with my porting and jetting i might be a hire above 70...

Now with why i know i could run away from sandman is....

the port work is great. The only thing to beat me was a KX 500 when i just had pipes and a cool head....so i dont think this 450r would give me much trouble...another reason would be the weight difference in riders...im sure if he is as old as he makes himself out to be, he has a belly...id say anywhere in the 200-230 range...so that another advantage...and also in the 1/4 mile my gearing WOULD DESTROY his 450...like i said ive beating the big bore 4 stroke without using 6th...Another reason is i flat out havnt seen a 450 get past the 65 HP mark...but my 350 can...

Now i know he will go on and say he has this that and the other thing, but unless he has nitrious or some other crazy mod, he will not win....

The reason i didnt go and get a set of cubs is because of the price, and also i still like to ride some fast trails and i think a 90+ hp banshee would be a little too much...

but banshees do own the drags, thats why i love them....cheap compared to 4 strokes, easy to take care of, and parts are basically unlimited

if i had the money i would go out and get a 450 or 400ex or something, but i just dont see why to pay more to go slower :confused:

now what do you have done to your 450?

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
;)

Good to hear all of that.

Good post from iamjaysn too. I understand what you are saying.

I will not argue the simplicity of the 2 stroke, nor the lower cost of maintenance - never have. I would contend that even though Honda stopped production in 89 of the ATV motor, it continued with 2 stroke development and still has them in it's lineup as an 85, 125 and 250. But, the amount of effort put into the 2 stroke - even including KTM has diminished. My opinion is that it is not so much a matter of profit potential as it is power potential.

Look at how far thumpers have come in just the last 8 years. We are finally seeing the fruits of all that streetbike motor development coming our way. With a 4 stroke, to make more power, you simply spin it faster. I know that is simplistic, but that doesn't apply nearly as well to 2 strokes. Th ethumper has such a wide powerband, that if it gets narrowed down through higher rpm/more power modifications, it will still not be as peaky as the two stroke.

It's a matter of usable rpm width.


I don't know about that 90 hp thing you're talking about. Go HERE (http://world.honda.com/WGP/spec/) to see what I see...

It looks to me that there are two 250 cc bikes. One is a V-5 5 cylinder 4 stroke and the other is a V-twin 2 stroke. The power numbers listed are very different as well. I see 240 from the thumper and 90 from the 2 stroke.... Units are (PS) - whatever that is...

If it is HP, then 240 hp out of a 250 thumper! Holy Crap!


Hi Chuck,
Here is the Honda GP racer I was talking about. I think 250R4Life posted this somewhere actually:http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/rs250r/index.html
Supposedly if you convert 67.7kw/12500rpm to hp you wind up with 91hp or something.

Of course, I don't agree with you about power potential. That is the fundamental issue I have with 4strokes actually. I think given their overhead, their power potential compared to a 2t is atrocious. True 4strokes have a broader torque range and I can see how people would like that, but I don't think a 450 4stroke would have a broader torque band than a modern well-tuned 450 2stroke - maybe flatter of a curve. My buddies 400ex has a MUCH more even torque curve than I do. Which is more fun for my girlfriend to put around? The ex. Me on a dune face? The spastic 2t. :)

By the way, of the two bikes you posted, here are the comparable power numbers:
4stroke:
cc: 990
power: 240
cc/hp: 4.125:1

2stroke:
cc: 250
power: 90
cc/hp: 2.78:1

If my figures are right, the 2stroke is putting out 33% more power per cubic centimeter of combustion volume. I DO NOT see how there is more power potential in a 4stroke.

By the way I have a book that says that Honda developed the late coming CR250 as a response to yamaha and Suzuki's 2strokes because they COULD NOT make a 250 4stroke that could win against the 2stroke. They tried various experimental designs, but finally conceded like 3 years after they said they'd never make a 2stroke.

Anyway, good argument! Maybe we'll all do some wrestling out in the sand one day! :macho

[250r4life]

it has already been established that cc for cc the 2 strokes are superior... that is not being contended...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Honda86
my banshee has, pipes, v force reeds, advanced timing, 34mm carbs, K & N clamp ons, full drag porting, and when i had the porting done i also got it .020 over just to clean everything up, I was running a 16 front tooth sprocket but just went down to 15 because i was riding more trails then fields at the time, i may go back up to 16, i also have holeshots in the rear...my jetting is right on (got specs from the guy who did the port work out in NY) also has a cool head with 19cc domes to bump up the compresion a bit...

A banshee with similar set up got on the dyno and was just under 70...i feel with my porting and jetting i might be a hire above 70...

Now with why i know i could run away from sandman is....

the port work is great. The only thing to beat me was a KX 500 when i just had pipes and a cool head....so i dont think this 450r would give me much trouble...another reason would be the weight difference in riders...im sure if he is as old as he makes himself out to be, he has a belly...id say anywhere in the 200-230 range...so that another advantage...and also in the 1/4 mile my gearing WOULD DESTROY his 450...like i said ive beating the big bore 4 stroke without using 6th...Another reason is i flat out havnt seen a 450 get past the 65 HP mark...but my 350 can...

Now i know he will go on and say he has this that and the other thing, but unless he has nitrious or some other crazy mod, he will not win....

The reason i didnt go and get a set of cubs is because of the price, and also i still like to ride some fast trails and i think a 90+ hp banshee would be a little too much...

but banshees do own the drags, thats why i love them....cheap compared to 4 strokes, easy to take care of, and parts are basically unlimited

if i had the money i would go out and get a 450 or 400ex or something, but i just dont see why to pay more to go slower :confused:

now what do you have done to your 450?

what pipes? are you running the stock swing arm?

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by 250r4life
it has already been established that cc for cc the 2 strokes are superior... that is not being contended...
Yea, I think it is actually... But it definetely shouldn't be.

CPI inframes, yup running stock swing arm, it dont wheelie too bad when im up on the handle bars...now i would like to know what is done to sandmans 450...im sure he has the usual mods hat are done to 450s that make them run good on a MX track, but there is no way he is gonna be able to come close on the straights :p and that was the only point i was trying to make...not only that but all my mods cost a whole lot less then a 4 stroke....I am sure he spent 5 or 6 grand on the bike, then probally close to another 1500 or 2 grand in mods making it a 7500 or 8 grand bike...while my banshee costs about 1/2 that and i am going faster :D

Right there is the reason i continue to stay 2 stroke....plus they sound sweet ;)

acctually now that i think about it..while my banshee cost around 4 grand, my 250R is about 3 into it....so i have 2 quad faster then a 450 for still less money...wow those 4 strokes are great investments...and not only that but WHEN that 4 stroke motor blows in a year or 2 youll be screwed rebuilding it as far as costs go...as for me ill tear down my R or shee and re ring it (if needed) and even the worst case possible is they both blow up (witch dont happen too much as long as mixture is right) and i can rebuild my banshee and 310r for less then you can rebuild that slower 450....2 for the price of 1 and still have cash left over :D

I think ill stay with my quads, but everyone likes different things and some people act like money is no object to them. THats fine if you have unlimited amount of cash

[sandmanblue]

For the record - I thought Honda86 was in the phoenix area or I would have never asked him to come out and race. I don't know why I thought that. My mistake - been known to make those.

I also thought you were a LOT older based on the birthday of September 25, 1966 that you have in your profile... Maybe you'll fix that now that everyone knows your age. THAT's why I came down on you for the age thing. I thought you were misrepresenting your age and then admitted another age.

Also, in a drag race, I believe your banshee would beat my 477, but that's the only place. All that motor won't be worth a damn if you can't hook up or have to turn.

I'm too tired of all of this back and forth crap to continue. I also need to look at that Honda page again.

[sandmanblue]

Okay - saw the engine size difference - I thought that number was out of line...

Lesson for you kids, don't do drugs in high school, when you get older it will catch up to you...

[firefighterjosh]

Honda86,

IF you want a more all around bike engine check out Jim at Passion Racing. He has some awesome MX and TT engines. I was looking at a 412 big bore stroker making 90HP. I guess even though its making so much power it is still ussable in MX. Not too much of a bite.

Also my banshee had about the same mods as you. Except I did not have Port work and I had T-6 pipes. I would get beat by the 450s int he sand but would beat them on the ashphault. I also run stock gearing.

yeah a buddy of mine set up this account years ago, i am so bad with computers all i knwo how to do is check my mail and go to this website

and to sandman, this isnt nothing person, just wanted you to knwo whos dust you would be eating if we ever rode together

ill check that out...i dont have much intrest in changin my set up though, i like where the power comes on and how hard it hits, plus still has great relieabilty...ill take a look though, thanks

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Honda86
CPI inframes, yup running stock swing arm, it dont wheelie too bad when im up on the handle bars...now i would like to know what is done to sandmans 450...im sure he has the usual mods hat are done to 450s that make them run good on a MX track, but there is no way he is gonna be able to come close on the straights :p and that was the only point i was trying to make...not only that but all my mods cost a whole lot less then a 4 stroke....I am sure he spent 5 or 6 grand on the bike, then probally close to another 1500 or 2 grand in mods making it a 7500 or 8 grand bike...while my banshee costs about 1/2 that and i am going faster :D

Right there is the reason i continue to stay 2 stroke....plus they sound sweet ;)

like i said, i like to play devils advocate and i like to call out errors where i see them... just because i have had different views than sandman doesnt mean im going to let BS statements come from the other side...

you say how you have so much less into your banshee, and that they are so much less expensive, but you have a lot of faulty reasoning into your logic... you say he spent like 6k on his bike and then put another 2k into it... sure, he probably has... but he bought his bike new. if you buy a new banshee, off the show room floor the banshee is right up there with the 450s in price...
the fact that you bought yours used for less is irrelevant... what if i go buy a modded yfz that will smoke your banshee, and i buy it for less than what you have into yours... you never get out of your bikes what you put into them, so comapring your used banshee to his new 450 is ludacris...

comparing new to new, the price isnt too far from eachother... it costs about 5 bills to pipe each of them, so were still even in cost, and piped for piped the 450 will smoke the banshee. in fact, if you take the baffle out, lid off, and rejet the 450, it will smoke the piped banshee, and have less money into it... now i know as you get pretty radical the banshee will pull away, but you have to put a lot of money into it for it to be that way... the fact that you have to buy two of everything, and get porting and polishing and etc done to both sides doesnt make it that much less expensive on a banshee...

again, if you want to make a drag bike the banshee is it... but if you want a bike you can ride and drag, and not have it dragged out to the max, the banshee may not be the best choice...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Honda86
CPI inframes, yup running stock swing arm, it dont wheelie too bad when im up on the handle bars...

k... well the fact that you are running and can still run the stock swing arm makes me seriously question how fast your bike is... ive ridden a lot of fast banshees, and if theyre really that fast with the stock swing arm you cant keep the front end down, no matter if youre up on the handlebars or not... especially when you drag port them where they are going to hit like crazy...

a- i question you being anywhere near 70 hp
b- if for some reason you were to be near 70hp, it would be pretty hard to ride on that stock swing arm...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Honda86
acctually now that i think about it..while my banshee cost around 4 grand, my 250R is about 3 into it....so i have 2 quad faster then a 450 for still less money...wow those 4 strokes are great investments...and not only that but WHEN that 4 stroke motor blows in a year or 2 youll be screwed rebuilding it as far as costs go...as for me ill tear down my R or shee and re ring it (if needed) and even the worst case possible is they both blow up (witch dont happen too much as long as mixture is right) and i can rebuild my banshee and 310r for less then you can rebuild that slower 450....2 for the price of 1 and still have cash left over :D

I think ill stay with my quads, but everyone likes different things and some people act like money is no object to them. THats fine if you have unlimited amount of cash

apparently you dont have too much experience in rebuilding the bikes... very rarely when a 2 stroke goes does a new set of rings fix everything... i wont deny that 2 strokes are less expensive to fix, but not as drastic as you make it out to be...

[250r4life]

and i still question that if i put into my bike the money you have put into yours, i think i would take you up the hill... and have a bike better for everything else too...

read my post again, i said i should need to be re-ring after a year, and the worst case possible would be to throw in a new piston...120 bucks....how much do 4 strokes cost to rebuild?...go ahead and put about 1500-2K into your 450....still wont be in the high 60s, low 70 HP range with the same relieabilty as my banshee....

i may only be 19 but i rebuilt my 1st 2 stroke top end when i was 12-13 and started riding at 3....so i have a couple years under my belt, i am sure some of you old guys have more years into it, but with years to experience ratio im sure i have more in that aspect

but back on topic, most 2 stroke could use a re ring after a year of riding and like i said, WORST CASE POSSIBLE they will need a new piston and bored over a lil bit, when your 4 stroke piston,rings, valves, etc go...let me know what the cost was to rebuild

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Honda86

but back on topic, most 2 stroke could use a re ring after a year of riding and like i said, WORST CASE POSSIBLE they will need a new piston and bored over a lil bit, when your 4 stroke piston,rings, valves, etc go...let me know what the cost was to rebuild

WORST CASE POSSIBLE huh? c'mon now- you forget that i am a two stroke owner and its been less than 2 months since i have purchased the 450.... a lot more can go wrong then that... i have had wrist pin bearings go out and take out my piston, my cylinder, my dome, etc... they can fall down into the lower end and take out your bottom end as well...

of course when you have such a high power banshee too, cranks never seperate nor need to be welded either... oh, and did i mention with a banshee you have to do two of everything? :devil:

oh, and if my 4 stroke was to go any time in the next 4 years and 4 months, it actually wouldnt cost me a dime to fix... well, i take that back- it cost me $250 for the 4 year extended warranty...

good deal on your extended warranty....but but a 2 stroke costing alot to rebuild is rare...sure there are some freakish blow ups on 4 stroke and 2 stroke, but i think you get the point. 4 strokes are alot more expensive...

Still alot of 4 stroke rebuilds are in the 4 didgets...just something i wouldnt want to spend on a hobby

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by Honda86
good deal on your extended warranty....but but a 2 stroke costing alot to rebuild is rare...sure there are some freakish blow ups on 4 stroke and 2 stroke, but i think you get the point. 4 strokes are alot more expensive...

Still alot of 4 stroke rebuilds are in the 4 didgets...just something i wouldnt want to spend on a hobby

This is on average true. Ask C-Leigh. He's not the only builder who sees the high cost of new high strung 4stroke ownership. You're not going to get a free ride squeezing the hp people love out of them. Remember, power is more easily obtainable in a 2stroke. I've posted this till people are sick of it, but it at least puts someone's numbers to paper:
2strokes vs 4stroke maintenance (http://www.all250r.com/UsefulContent/2strokeVs4strokeMaint.pdf)

yup that puts alot of the numbers down...some people prefer 4 strokes and some prefer 2 strokes...but what i dont like about the Mx bike running together and the quad company ONLY ofering 4 strokes is the sport will grow into a more wealthy kids sport...2 stroke are so cheap to run and keep up i think that would help the sport grow alot....

for MX bikes i think classes should be 125, 250 (2s and 4s) and then 450 class

[250r4life]

it is not as plain and simple as that article makes it out to be....

now i actually prefer 2 strokes, but there are other variables...

for instance, you can pipe and filter a 450, and it is going to take a 250r or banshee with motor work to be as fast... now youre telling me that a modded ported and polished 2 stroke is as reliable as a stock 450? i dont think so...

and like i already stated, if youre going to really drag them out, of course it is better to go 2 stroke...

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by 250r4life
it is not as plain and simple as that article makes it out to be....

now i actually prefer 2 strokes, but there are other variables...

for instance, you can pipe and filter a 450, and it is going to take a 250r or banshee with motor work to be as fast... now youre telling me that a modded ported and polished 2 stroke is as reliable as a stock 450? i dont think so...

and like i already stated, if youre going to really drag them out, of course it is better to go 2 stroke...

The article is not profiling modified engines.

The article is not making it out to be plain and simple. It clearly says that things with the 4stroke particularly depend on time spent in upper rpm ranges, (like say racing), which varies rider to rider. The 2stroke is less suseptible to this issue (come on please, there's no rev limiter). If reliability is the debate (and it shouldn't be), the trade off with going to a 4stroke is an increase in parts, and complication. When you use the more complicated design to put out more than a 250 2stroke in only 450cc's, you lose reliability. I can't believe that isn't completely clear.

By the way though, like on a 4stroke a pipe, carb and dome reshape and blueprinting on a 2stroke doesn't decrease reliability. Port timing changes and increasing tunnels for more intake don't by itself necessarily decrease reliability either. Now high compression... that's a reliability killer. But it doesn't wear out as many parts in a 2stroke. Overall you're going to see less cost than you will a 4stroke. In modified engine comparisons too (not modified XR motors to 450's, but modified 450's), 4strokes definetely don't cost less.

I talk to people all the time... it's weird how when I sit down and think about things, how people are lulled into the idea that the 4strokes that are to replace 2strokes are because of a natural progression of technological improvement. I can see however, how at first glance how someone would think that. We naturally assume that technology moves forward, because in most cases it does! But that is because usually capitalism is usually pushing for better products. High def TV's and smaller, faster computer memory... blah blah. In this case, it's not capitalism driving the change though. I've peeled it around so much over the months that to me at this point though it's just common sense. If you prefer a 2stroke, then ride a 2stroke because to me the only reason to ride a 450 is because you prefer the ride of a high performance 4stroke, and don't mind the increased cost, OR you are assuming you're on a "improved technology" XR.

I don't know why you were having such problems with fuel economy and the other issues and that blows... but, over the long run, on average people would spend less on their original R's.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
The article is not profiling modified engines.

The article is not making it out to be plain and simple. It clearly says that things with the 4stroke particularly depend on time spent in upper rpm ranges, (like say racing), which varies rider to rider. The 2stroke is less suseptible to this issue (come on please, there's no rev limiter). If reliability is the debate (and it shouldn't be), the trade off with going to a 4stroke is an increase in parts, and complication. When you use the more complicated design to put out more than a 250 2stroke in only 450cc's, you lose reliability. I can't believe that isn't completely clear.

By the way though, like on a 4stroke a pipe, carb and dome reshape and blueprinting on a 2stroke doesn't decrease reliability. Port timing changes and increasing tunnels for more intake don't by itself necessarily decrease reliability either. Now high compression... that's a reliability killer. But it doesn't wear out as many parts in a 2stroke. Overall you're going to see less cost than you will a 4stroke. In modified engine comparisons too (not modified XR motors to 450's, but modified 450's), 4strokes definetely don't cost less.

I talk to people all the time... it's weird how when I sit down and think about things, how people are lulled into the idea that the 4strokes that are to replace 2strokes are because of a natural progression of technological improvement. I can see however, how at first glance how someone would think that. We naturally assume that technology moves forward, because in most cases it does! But that is because usually capitalism is usually pushing for better products. High def TV's and smaller, faster computer memory... blah blah. In this case, it's not capitalism driving the change though. I've peeled it around so much over the months that to me at this point though it's just common sense. If you prefer a 2stroke, then ride a 2stroke because to me the only reason to ride a 450 is because you prefer the ride of a high performance 4stroke, and don't mind the increased cost, OR you are assuming you're on a "improved technology" XR.

I don't know why you were having such problems with fuel economy and the other issues and that blows... but, over the long run, on average people would spend less on their original R's.

i am not saying at all that these new 4 strokes are new and superior technology... and i do not prefer the ride of the 4 stroke to that of the 2 stroke... if they were to make an 07 250r, or say an 07 265r, i would have one... i absolutely love my R... and although it makes all the sense in the world to sell that bike, i am having the hardest time with the idea of it...

however, after how many problems i had with my R in 2006, the idea of a stock engine with a 4.5 year warranty that i could still smoke most people on the hill with was very attractive... and that great YFZ suspension that i needed to put on my R if i was to keep it as my primary was great also...

the R's are just old, and are going to continue to have little things constantly going out on them... my wrist pin bearing going out was a fluke thing... however, my rod bearings going out were just cuz of wear and tear- it had a lot of years of hard riding and especially with my duncan cylinder, it was a lot of HP over what it was designed for... same thing with 2nd gear... just got old and wore out...

fuel economy wasnt really something that weighed on my decision- more of just an added bonus...

i think i speak for everyone when a 2007 265R would sell like hotcakes if it was ever produced :D just use CR 250 motor in a updated 250r frame....even if ti was 8 grand new, everyone and their brothers friend would buy one

[250r4life]

i dont know about the whole CR motor idea... im thinking more along the lines of a 265 trx motor that is counterbalanced, not a dirt bike motor, with the 250r frame, and some nice piggy pack shocks like the 450s have... i would still want the 88/89 plastics though- i love that look... it could be offered in red and white...

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by 250r4life
i dont know about the whole CR motor idea... im thinking more along the lines of a 265 trx motor that is counterbalanced, not a dirt bike motor, with the 250r frame, and some nice piggy pack shocks like the 450s have... i would still want the 88/89 plastics though- i love that look... it could be offered in red and white...
Hell yea. I saw the 07 300ex this weekend and if you thought the other new quads were looking cartoonish this ******* is about at the top. The red color Honda is using lately is already a bit faded to some off-red. Just little more and they will be pink. haha Maybe they will come with a hentai trading card set and a pack of bubble gum for 08. :D I don't get the stock headlights on the yamaha's either. The raptor has a f-d up looking mug. I think the japanese want to make the world appreciate its modern view on aesthetics these days. Maybe I just think too much. Gone are masculine looking lines for a while though. Even their trucks look like cartoon bugs. I would like to know what they are thinking with this stuff. I used to like Tacomas till like 2000 or something. Anyway I think the 88-89 R's were the best looking too. I kinda like the 86 with no light and cut fronts too though. I want them to polish the Al swingarm again too and put a halogen in the headlight again, the cheap fcukers.

But ya, the motor probably needs to be counterbalanced. Typically the gears in ATV's are stronger and havier too I think. Service Honda put the CR motor in a 400ex though... I've seen CR top ends with the powervalve on a TRX bottom too. Don't know if it has better port design than a Pro-X PV or what?

Oh wait, was this a banshee/450R thread? oops.. Uhm.. 250R and a banshee for XC! No valves necessary. :D I just need to find a place to XC in so cal and I'll have an excuse to buy a shee!

[krt400ex]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Im looking for somthing to be fast.. bu ti dont want to make it a stict drag machine.. just somthing to mess around and own people on there 450's and 400's and the dunes. but also be good for trails and dirt MX riding. I would go banshee... but i hear they suck on trails and there handling sucks. woyuld the 250R be able to spank some 450's? even with 250 LBS on it?


a stock bore 250R will not beat the 420 ur looking at, but it will beat a stock bore banshee. ive seen it with my own eyes...and a 330R will be close to the 420 banchit. the chassis handles better than alot of machines out there, and it is super light.

i would get a 250R over a banchit any day

[250r4life]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Hell yea. I saw the 07 300ex this weekend and if you thought the other new quads were looking cartoonish this ******* is about at the top. The red color Honda is using lately is already a bit faded to some off-red. Just little more and they will be pink. haha Maybe they will come with a hentai trading card set and a pack of bubble gum for 08. :D I don't get the stock headlights on the yamaha's either. The raptor has a f-d up looking mug. I think the japanese want to make the world appreciate its modern view on aesthetics these days. Maybe I just think too much. Gone are masculine looking lines for a while though. Even their trucks look like cartoon bugs. I would like to know what they are thinking with this stuff. I used to like Tacomas till like 2000 or something. Anyway I think the 88-89 R's were the best looking too. I kinda like the 86 with no light and cut fronts too though. I want them to polish the Al swingarm again too and put a halogen in the headlight again, the cheap fcukers.


although i love the 88/89 R, i must say i think the YFZ is pretty slick looking too... and, i actually think the brand new tacomas are pretty sharp as well.. .

[sc400ex_rider]

dude is trying to unload it cause its about to blow up,stick with the bulletproff honda. handles way better too:blah:

[N2SAND]

IVE READ ALL YOUR GUYS POSTS AND IT MAKES ME LAUGH ARENT WE ALL DOING THIS SPORT FOR THE FUN OF IT EVERYONE HAS THERE OWN OPINON ON WHAT BIKES ARE BETTER I OWN A 06TRX450ER WITH PIPE FILTER AND JET KIT I ALSO OWN A 97 BANSHEE WITH WELDED CRANK, LIGHTENED FLY WHEEL, ADVANCED TIMING, CUT AND CC HEAD, K&N FILTERS STOCK CARBS, BILLIT INTAKES, VFORCE REEDS, PORTED CYLINDERS, AND BARNETT CLUTCHES. I DO HAVE THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS 2STROKE AND 4STROKE AND I ALSO LIVE 20 MINUTES FROM BUTTERCUP WHEN ME AND ALL MY BUDDYS SADDLE UP AND GO FOR A DUNE RIDE I JUMP ON THE BANSHEE ITS A **** LOAD MORE FUN AND THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT... THE WIFE GETS THE 450 LOL...

[bansheerider98]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Yeah.. but my 450 i bougth already modded and stuf... i traded my KFX400 and 1000 for it.



And yeah i ride pretty much sand.. like sand trails. hill climbs... drags.. stuff liek that. But we also go on LONG rides.. and i know the 450R has a much bigger gas tank then the banshee.

the banshee has a Fuel Capacity of 3.2 Gallons

the suzuki 450R has a Fuel Tank Capacity of 10 liters (2.6 gal.)

[bansheerider98]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Yeah.. but my 450 i bougth already modded and stuf... i traded my KFX400 and 1000 for it.



And yeah i ride pretty much sand.. like sand trails. hill climbs... drags.. stuff liek that. But we also go on LONG rides.. and i know the 450R has a much bigger gas tank then the banshee.

the banshee has a Fuel Capacity of 3.2 Gallons

the suzuki 450R has a Fuel Tank Capacity of 10 liters (2.6 gal.)

[bansheerider98]

Originally posted by Slimyslipknot
Yeah.. but my 450 i bougth already modded and stuf... i traded my KFX400 and 1000 for it.



And yeah i ride pretty much sand.. like sand trails. hill climbs... drags.. stuff liek that. But we also go on LONG rides.. and i know the 450R has a much bigger gas tank then the banshee.

the banshee has a Fuel Capacity of 3.2 Gallons

the suzuki 450R has a Fuel Tank Capacity of 10 liters (2.6 gal.)