question about hot cams

[hondarules]

i kno this has already been asked an u are tired of answering these kind of questions but i have searched an didnt really find anything that answered my question...if i go with stage 1 hot cam will there be a huge loss on top or juss a small loss an how big of a difference is there between a stage 1 an 2 thru bottom an mid is it that much of a difference

thanks for any help

[400exfan19]

ya i have the same question but i am also wondering if any1 has a link for installing the cam. after installation do you have 2 rejet or adjust valve stuff?

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by hondarules
i kno this has already been asked an u are tired of answering these kind of questions but i have searched an didnt really find anything that answered my question...if i go with stage 1 hot cam will there be a huge loss on top or juss a small loss an how big of a difference is there between a stage 1 an 2 thru bottom an mid is it that much of a difference

thanks for any help

Stage 1 is really a low to mid cam. With a stock compression I don't think you will LOSE top end, just won't gain top end.

The Stage 2 is mid to top end cam that really needs to have a high compression piston (stock bore is OK) to perform well. If you run a stage 2 on stock compression will lose alot of power on the all over!!!! :(

Just my $.02

Good luck.

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by 400exfan19
ya i have the same question but i am also wondering if any1 has a link for installing the cam.

Try the Hot Cams Web site. They have a video that shows it on a CRF450 that is pretty close!


Originally posted by 400exfan19
after installation do you have 2 rejet

Maybe.. jetting should be checked!


Originally posted by 400exfan19
di i have to adjust valve stuff?


YES... absolutely required, but don't be afraid. Get a shop manual (i can help here..PM me), get good tools (i.e. in-lb torque wrench), and take your time. Its not hard.

[JJE02EX]

Originally posted by zrpilot
Stage 1 is really a low to mid cam. With a stock compression I don't think you will LOSE top end, just won't gain top end.

The Stage 2 is mid to top end cam that really needs to have a high compression piston (stock bore is OK) to perform well. If you run a stage 2 on stock compression will lose alot of power on the all over!!!! :(

Just my $.02

Good luck.
i agree i have a stock motor with a stage 2 cam and i had to some major gearing to get anything out of bottom end they suck..

[hondarules]

ok well i am also goin with high compression piston and exhaust but stayin with stock bore will that make a difference with the cam choice i forgot to mention that in my 1st post

[jrm03]

I just made the change you are making. Stock bore, 11:1, Stage 1, HMF Full and I couldn't be happier. Its a good overall improvement. You won't lose any top, but you will have a pretty good increase through the bottom and mid from my experience.
Its my impression that the Stage 2 is designed for the big bores, but I could be wrong.

[hondarules]

aight thanks for the info jrm

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by zrpilot
Stage 1 is really a low to mid cam. With a stock compression I don't think you will LOSE top end, just won't gain top end.

The Stage 2 is mid to top end cam that really needs to have a high compression piston (stock bore is OK) to perform well. If you run a stage 2 on stock compression will lose alot of power on the all over!!!! :(

Just my $.02

Good luck.

Not really true. You will notice a very good gain across the board. Almost all cams put the power up top, its just how much they put there, and how much they take away from bottom. A stage 1 will put power everywhere, where as a stage2 or stage3 will put a lot up top and you will lose bottom end.

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Not really true. You will notice a very good gain across the board. Almost all cams put the power up top, its just how much they put there, and how much they take away from bottom. A stage 1 will put power everywhere, where as a stage2 or stage3 will put a lot up top and you will lose bottom end.

400exrider,

I agree with what you are saying.... IF you have a high compression ratio.

To quote GPracer2500

"I see a lot of discussion about the HC stage 2 vs. the HC stage 1 for a stock compression engine. I've done some calculations to define how much the stage 2 might hurt bottom end performance. If you read the entire first post then you know that the issue is the loss of compression from the intake valves staying open a long(er) time. Compression is a dominating factor for producing low end torque. Here's the difference:

Taking into account the valve specifications:

Stock cam cranking compression at 1000ft = 8.2:1
HC stage 1 cranking compression at 1000ft = 7.8:1
HC stage 2 cranking compression at 1000ft = 7.6:1

If you go to a 11.0:1 piston (instead of the stock 9.1:1 piston) then the numbers change to:

stock cam: 9.9:1
HC stg 1: 9.5:1
HC stg 2: 9.2:1"

[hondarules]

ok im confused once again so by what zrpilot juss said the stock cam would be better in both situations?

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by hondarules
ok im confused once again so by what zrpilot juss said the stock cam would be better in both situations?

No the stock cam is not better.

Hondarules, consider motor work as a recipe. All the ingredients work together to make the final product. if you have to much of one thing...well you know what would happen.

I'm no expert here, but this is my opinion:

A cam does alot of things, lifts the valves more, lifts them faster, and keeps them open longer. The result (hopefully) is putting more fuel/air into the cylinder for combustion.

The more time the intake valves stay open the more important it is to have a high(er) compression piston. This is because with the valve open there is more opportunity for air to escape back through the valves as the piston begins its compression stroke. Even on the stock cam, the intake valves are still open when the piston begins its compression stroke. With an aggressive cam (like the Stage 2) some dynamic compression is lost through valves that stay open for a long time. This must be made up for with a higher compression piston. An aggressive cam with a stock compression piston may actually perform worse than the stock cam because too much compression is being lost through the valves being opened so much.

Now you are thinking why add a cam? OK, good question, IF the static compresion were higher AND you had an agressive cam that resulted in the compression ratio being equal to or slightly higher then the motor was stock, the engine is then breathing better, making more power.

That is why I think the Stage 1 with a stock compression 400ex is a better choice, you will lose less compression and compression is a dominating factor for producing low end torque.

If you read JJE02EX's post he said it best:
"i agree i have a stock motor with a stage 2 cam and i had to some major gearing to get anything out of bottom end they suck." There is real world proof about the Stage 2 and a stock compression motor.

Here is a quote form another member here, Def-E-nition, who just put in a HOT CAMS stage 1 on a stock motor.

"One can never understand what guys mean when they tell you - " yeah , this thing'll go Nicely with a cam in ..." Bloody Hell !!
from a standard motor - im impressed . Certainly one of the quickest 400's now in the area . I'm Helluva impressed . Which Leads me to my next contemplation : Are there NO Honda Techs RIDING 400's? before they release that twenty pound weakling to the Public , WHY they Dont look at Releasing a 400 with a slightly modified cam , for this amount of performance , I DO NOT KNOW ."

Seems like a clear choice to me.....

[Chino886]

Originally posted by zrpilot
No the stock cam is not better.

Hondarules, consider motor work as a recipe. All the ingredients work together to make the final product. if you have to much of one thing...well you know what would happen.

I'm no expert here, but this is my opinion:

A cam does alot of things, lifts the valves more, lifts them faster, and keeps them open longer. The result (hopefully) is putting more fuel/air into the cylinder for combustion.

The more time the intake valves stay open the more important it is to have a high(er) compression piston. This is because with the valve open there is more opportunity for air to escape back through the valves as the piston begins its compression stroke. Even on the stock cam, the intake valves are still open when the piston begins its compression stroke. With an aggressive cam (like the Stage 2) some dynamic compression is lost through valves that stay open for a long time. This must be made up for with a higher compression piston. An aggressive cam with a stock compression piston may actually perform worse than the stock cam because too much compression is being lost through the valves being opened so much.

Now you are thinking why add a cam? OK, good question, IF the static compresion were higher AND you had an agressive cam that resulted in the compression ratio being equal to or slightly higher then the motor was stock, the engine is then breathing better, making more power.

That is why I think the Stage 1 with a stock compression 400ex is a better choice, you will lose less compression and compression is a dominating factor for producing low end torque.

If you read JJE02EX's post he said it best:
"i agree i have a stock motor with a stage 2 cam and i had to some major gearing to get anything out of bottom end they suck." There is real world proof about the Stage 2 and a stock compression motor.

Here is a quote form another member here, Def-E-nition, who just put in a HOT CAMS stage 1 on a stock motor.

"One can never understand what guys mean when they tell you - " yeah , this thing'll go Nicely with a cam in ..." Bloody Hell !!
from a standard motor - im impressed . Certainly one of the quickest 400's now in the area . I'm Helluva impressed . Which Leads me to my next contemplation : Are there NO Honda Techs RIDING 400's? before they release that twenty pound weakling to the Public , WHY they Dont look at Releasing a 400 with a slightly modified cam , for this amount of performance , I DO NOT KNOW ."

Seems like a clear choice to me.....


Very good discussion of cams so far!

To break it down to the simplest terms, a Stage I or II from Hotcams will put a smile on your face. Stage I would be my choice if you are just going to put a cam in w/out piston. Stage II if you are going to bump up the compression!

I personally did the Stage II cam, High Compression piston, and head work all at one and it put a smile on my face!

I hope that helps. :devil:

[hondarules]

aight so guys thanks for the help

[Def-e-nition]

oi zr pilot - ten points for effort you put into your posts !! Damn ....

and he;s right about me . the bike is a torque monster now , and I'm talking from having a stock engine , to running circles around some of the 450 bikes .

MAN - we started 54 Bikes . 400 class started 1 minute behind the entire 450 (open) class .

I won the 4oo pro production class , and finished 7th Overall .I get a smiley feeling all over just writing that last bit . Can you imagine the guys on the bomb , Yfz , Trx that i overtook , how they must have felt ?? Man , it was a gooooowwwwd Feeling !!
Lol

Still want to know if the Cam works ?? :D