To all running 14.0 to1 on 05 models [Archive]

ricks450

12-03-2006, 11:09 PM

DID YAL RETARD YOUR TIMING TO ASEPT FOR THE HIGH COMPRESSOIN? I KNOW YOU GUYS HAVE TO RUN HIGH OCTAINE FUEL, BUT WHAT EXACTLY DID YOU GUYS DO? I ONLY RUN 11.5 TO 1. THANKS, I KNOW ALOT OF PEOPLE DON'T WONT TO TELL, BUT I DONT CARE . I TELL YOU EVERYTHING I HAVE. IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD HELPING PEOPLE OUT . THANKS AGAIN!!

ghott

12-04-2006, 06:00 AM

I run 13.1:1 comp with a Hot Cams Stage 2....timing is straight up :). I also use Sunoco/Cam 2 Purple 110 Fuel.

red2004 TRX450R

12-04-2006, 10:50 AM

are you talking cam timing or Ignition timing.

the ignition timing can only be changed electronically( i think). and the TPS changes ignition timing with throttle position.

ricks450

12-04-2006, 05:23 PM

YOUR RIGHT ABOUT THE TPS AND CHANGING IGNITION TIMING ELEC. I WAS TAKING ABOUT IGNITION TIMING.RED 04 TRX450R.

ricks450

12-04-2006, 05:32 PM

DAMN PUNISHER! THEY MUST HAVE NOT PUT MUCH ADVANCE ON THEM, UNLESS THE FUEL AS ENOUGH OCTANE TO KEEP IT FROM DETNATING . DO YOU KNOW? DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH ADVANCE THEY PUT ON THEM FROM THE FACTORY?

ghott

12-04-2006, 05:54 PM

I thought you were referring to cam timing.

I still run the stock CDI ignition with my modifications.

ricks450

12-04-2006, 05:57 PM

WHAT ABOUT CAM TIMING, DID CHANGE YOU THAT?

ghott

12-04-2006, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by ricks450
WHAT ABOUT CAM TIMING, DID CHANGE YOU THAT?

No sir, same.

ricks450

12-04-2006, 06:09 PM

I DONT KNOW HOW MUCH ADVANCE THEY PUT ON THEM. BUT I THOUGHT YOU WOULD GET PREDETINATION ON THEM WITH THAT HIGH OF COMPRESSON WITH THE ADVANCE THEY PUT ON THE MOTOR FROM FACTORY UNLESS YOU GOT A PROGRAMMABLE CDI. YOU DONT GET ANY DETINATION?

ghott

12-04-2006, 06:12 PM

Nope not at all.

I use Sunoco 110 fuel and have no detonation.

You can drop in a 14:1 Baldwin stock bore and use the stock CDI ignition....and as long as you use at least 107 octane fuel, you should not have any detonation problems.

I believe detonation is caused more by poor fuel choice, and the dynamic compression ratio achieved by your piston & cam combo.

GPRacer has some great info on this subject...hopefully he will chime in and school us :).

ricks450

12-04-2006, 06:18 PM

DAMN,IF I WOULD HAVE KNON THAT I WOULD GOT A HIGHER COMPRESSION PISTON THAN A 11.5 TO 1.THAT SUCKS!!

ricks450

12-04-2006, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by ricks450
DAMN,IF I WOULD HAVE KNON THAT I WOULD GOT A HIGHER COMPRESSION PISTON THAN A 11.5 TO 1.THAT SUCKS!! HOW MUCH IS THE FUEL COST THAT YOU 110

ghott

12-04-2006, 06:20 PM

Live and learn :).

There's always next years build :devil:.

Remember, you can use up to 12.5:1 compression ratio SAFELY on 91 octane pump gas.

Anything higher, and you will be looking at pricey high octane fuel.

ghott

12-04-2006, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by ricks450
HOW MUCH IS THE FUEL COST THAT YOU 110

I've been paying $6.40 a gallon.

But I believe a friend of mine just found me a place to get it for $4.99 a gallon.

ricks450

12-04-2006, 06:24 PM

DHANG,THAT CAN GET EXPENSIVE RIDING TWICE A WEEK ALL DAY.

ricks450

12-04-2006, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by ricks450
DHANG,THAT CAN GET EXPENSIVE RIDING TWICE A WEEK ALL DAY. I GOT A LITTLE BOY ON THE WAY ANY DAY NOW. I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN AFFORD THAT FUEL RIGHT NOW. AND PLUS I GOT REPLACE MY CRANK.

ghott

12-04-2006, 06:32 PM

Yes, it can get quite expensive.

$70 in gas usually lasts me about 1.5 months with the amount of riding I do.

ricks450

12-04-2006, 06:45 PM

I SEE YOU LIVE IN WEST VIRGINA. DID YOU KNOW A GUY NAME BRYAN BASS? I DON'T KNOW THE WHERE ABOUTS HE LIVED BUT HE USE TO RIDE WITH GUYS OUT THERE ON 450'S . I WAS JUST WONDERING IF YOU KNEW HIM IT'S MY COUSIN. HE RODE ON THE GUYS TRACK THEY MADE. HE SAID IT WAS PRETTY SWEET.

ghott

12-04-2006, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by ricks450
I SEE YOU LIVE IN WEST VIRGINA. DID YOU KNOW A GUY NAME BRYAN BASS? I DON'T KNOW THE WHERE ABOUTS HE LIVED BUT HE USE TO RIDE WITH GUYS OUT THERE ON 450'S . I WAS JUST WONDERING IF YOU KNEW HIM IT'S MY COUSIN. HE RODE ON THE GUYS TRACK THEY MADE. HE SAID IT WAS PRETTY SWEET.

I don't know him...

I live in the eastern panhandle of WV :).

tooanxiousii

12-04-2006, 07:17 PM

Don't be afraid of a few $$$ more for gas. It's worth it by far ...
I have a 06 and advance my timing curve and it works great with the baldwin 14:1 piston:devil: :devil:

stocktires

12-04-2006, 07:44 PM

The amount of compression you can run depends MUCH more on other things besides gas....
your cam being a huge one besides ignition

ricks450

12-04-2006, 07:44 PM

tooanxiousii - If you don't mind me asking, what size main jet and slow jet are you running and how much advance did you put on your bike?

ghott

12-04-2006, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by stocktires
The amount of compression you can run depends MUCH more on other things besides gas....
your cam being a huge one besides ignition

Exactly, it all depends on DYNAMIC compression...not static.

And don't forget...the squish! Can't have that piston clipping the valves :).

Where's Chad when you need him? :blah:

ricks450

12-04-2006, 08:34 PM

PUNISHER- WHAT DO THINK ABOUT 480 KIT OR 500 BORE KIT?

ghott

12-04-2006, 10:41 PM

I hate to use this phrase (especially with raptor guys hanging around :( ....)

But there is no replacement for displacement.

To a certain point, bigger is better.

Make sure you have a decent crank to go with that bigger bore...if you can, get the crank balanced to the new piston.

I've seen many guys run 480 kits around 12.5:1 compression on pump gas and make GREAT power.

tooanxiousii

12-05-2006, 08:06 PM

My carb is different then the 05 ... I have a FCR carb but I run a 162 main,42 pilot, and a 55 leak jet...

As for advance I have 3 programs from dyna and one from spark's ....

I am more for high compression... Unless you are talking about a stocker big bore kit ....

ricks450

12-05-2006, 08:44 PM

MY MAIN THING IS I DONT RACE. I JUST LIKE TO HAWL ***. AND I DONT WONT TO BE STUCK RUNING RACE FUEL, BECAUSE OF RUNING HIGH COMPRESSION. I WANT A BIG BORE KIT WITH LIKE 11.5:1 TO COMPENSATE FOR THE REAL HIGH COMPRESSION BIKES. SO I CAN RUN PUMP FUEL. I KNOW BUILDING 350 SMALL BLOCK MOTORS YOU CANT RUN 12.0:1 WITH PUMP GAS WITHOUT RETARDING YOUR IGNITION TIMING. SO YOU DONT GET PREDETINTION. THAT IS DEFEATING THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF RUNING HIGH COMPRESSION. YOU CAN RUN HIGH COMPRESSION ON RACE GAS. I RIDE TO MUCH TO PAY FOR RACE FUEL. I WAS JUST WONDERING WHAT PEOPLE WERE DOING TO RUN THAT KIND OF COMPRESSION. BUT I SEE RACE FUEL. I THINK IM GOING TO GO BIG BORE WITH LOWER COMPRERSCESSION TO STAY ON PUMP GAS. IT WILL SAVE ME ALOT OF MONEY. AND I THINK IF I GO AT LEAST 500 OR 520 WITH LOW COMPRESSION AND I CAN ACCOMPLISH THE SAMETHING AS STOCK BORE WITH HIGH COMPRESSION. BECAUSE OF BIGGER BORE, CUBIC INCH (CC)'S. I JUST DONT KNOW HOW BIG TO GO. I KNOW THIS. I DONT WONT TO BE ABLE TO HANG THE HELL ON. THATS WHEN I KNOW GETTING ABOUT WHERE I WONNA BE. :D

stocktires

12-05-2006, 09:32 PM

I knew it! I just didn't say it...

You've got an automotive midset...

Throw it out the freaking window and toss a nice 12:1 or 12.5:1 in that thing! It'll run on pump EASILY. CRF's come from the factory with 12:1 and run on 87 pump like it was meant to (don't though). The 250f's are at 12.5+:1 from the factory.
Screw big bores (my own opinion), bump that compression up!
With an aftermarket cam, 12.5:1 is extremely reliable. CRF guys are running 13.5:1 on pump.

ricks450

12-05-2006, 09:58 PM

BUT WHAT IS THE IGNITION TIMING SET AT FROM THE FACTORY, KNOWBODY CAN TELL ME. AND ALL MOTORS WORK THE SAME SOME ARE JUST BIGGER THAN OTHERS. I WORK ON ALL KINDS OF MOTORS FROM 1 TO 2 TO 4 TO TO 6 TO 8 CYLINDERS ALL THE WAY TO DIESAL. I DO IT FOR A LIVING. AND THE CAM TIMING JUST PLACES YOUR POWER IN DIFFERANT PLACES.LOW TO HIGH END DEPENDING WHERE YOU PUT IT.

ricks450

12-05-2006, 10:12 PM

THE TIGHTER YOU COMPRESS THE HOTTER IT GETS THE MORE OCTAINE YOU NEED. YOU CANT COMPRESS PUMP GAS THAT MUCH WITHOUT GETTING PREDETINTION. IF THAT WAS THE CASE WOULD'NT NEED RACE GAS. CANT CONVINCE ME GOT TO PROVE IT. NOT TRING TO AN *** BUT I BEEN AROUND HOTRODING ALONG TIME. EVERYTHING I EVER HAD ,HAD TO GO FASTER.

400exrider707

12-05-2006, 10:59 PM

Some 250F bikes are in the neigborhood of 12.5:1 I know one of them is 12.9:1 stock. However if you are not running really fresh 93 in them, the will detonate.

ricks450

12-05-2006, 11:06 PM

WE CANT FIND FRESH GAS AROUND HERE. IT ALL MIXED WITH HALF GAS AND CORN OIL.

GPracer2500

12-06-2006, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by ricks450
...AND ALL MOTORS WORK THE SAME SOME ARE JUST BIGGER THAN OTHERS...

Sort of true and sort of not true. Practically all engines work the same but some are far more effecient than others. Modern sport quad engines have extremely effecient combustion chambers.

BTW, I'd stop using the word "PREDETINTION". It's a nonsense word. There are two abnormal combustion phenomenon: pre-ignition and detonation. Although sometimes related, they are two completely different things. Neither one is normal.

ricks450

12-06-2006, 05:45 PM

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT ABOUT THE CUMBUSTION CAMBERS. BUT YOU ARE NOT RIGHT ABOUT THE WORD "PREDETINTION". IT IS THE SAMETHING AS PRE-IGNITION. PREDETINTION IS FUEL BEING COMPRESSED,GETTING HOT AND FIRING BEFORE DETONATION CAUSING IT TO PING , BANG OR WHAT EVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT AND BEATING ON YOUR MOTOR CAUSING MAJOR MOTOR PROBLEMS. AND DETONTION IS WHEN THE ENGINE FIRES.

stocktires

12-06-2006, 06:01 PM

Isn't preignition when the spark plug ignits before it's at TDC?
And predetonation is a combustion from the gas being compressed before its at TDC (like a diesel)?
Therefore being two totaly different things?

ricks450

12-06-2006, 06:09 PM

YOU CALL IT THAT BUT SPARK PLUG FIRING BEFORE TDC IS ADVANCED TIMING. RETARD IS FIRING AFTER TDC. AND YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT ABOUT PREDITINTION.

ricks450

12-06-2006, 06:14 PM

ricks450

12-06-2006, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by ricks450
YOU CALL IT THAT BUT SPARK PLUG FIRING BEFORE TDC IS ADVANCED TIMING. RETARD IS FIRING AFTER TDC. AND YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT ABOUT PREDITINTION. PREDITINTION IS FUEL FIRING PREMATURELY. BECAUSE IT IS COMRESSED SO MUCH, IT GET HOT ENOUGH TO FIRE WITHOUT THE PLUG. COMPRESSED AIR GETS HOT.

GPracer2500

12-06-2006, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by ricks450
PREDITINTION IS FUEL FIRING PREMATURELY. BECAUSE IT IS COMRESSED SO MUCH, IT GET HOT ENOUGH TO FIRE WITHOUT THE PLUG. COMPRESSED AIR GETS HOT.

What you're (sort of) describing is called detonation, not pre-detonation. "Pre-detonation" is a nonsense word that folks sometimes use when they get mixed up about exactly what detonation and pre-ignition really are. They combine the two words and wind up with "pre-detonation".

There are two kinds of combustion that can happen inside a combustion chamber: deflagration and detonation. Deflagration is the good kind--this is the burn that happens when everything is going normally. The second kind is detonation--it is abnormal. It is an explosion (rather than a controlled burn) of the end-gases that have succumb to heat and pressure. Detonation is often called "pinging" or "knocking" becuase that's what it often sounds like when it's happening. Detonation is less often (but accurately) called auto-ignition (not to be confused with pre-ignition).

Pre-ignition is an altogether seperate thing. Pre-ignition is simply when the a/f mixture is ignited by an ignition source before the plug has a chance to do it.

I've sure I've gone into great detail about these topics before. If you search for "detonation", "deflagration", "pre-ignition", and maybe "end-gases" I think you'll find some lengthy posts that describe what these things are.

GPracer2500

12-06-2006, 06:47 PM

Here's a good one: http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2406397#post2406397

ricks450

12-08-2006, 06:14 PM

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT. YOU MUST BE AN ENGINEER OR SOMEBODY WHO HAS READ UP ON IT AND THAT'S REAL GOOD. DON'T GET ME WRONG HERE BUT THE AVERAGE GUY THAT BUILDS HOT RODS AND THAT DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT FUEL THAT WELL IS NOT GOING TO KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT. DETONATING IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE CALL WHEN THE SPARK PLUG FIRES AND IT MAKES THE FUEL EXPLODE LIKE A BOMB - IT DETONATES. THEY SAY IT DETONATED, NOT DEFLAGRATION. WHAT WE CALL PRE-DETONATION IS WHEN THE PISTON FIRES PREMATURELY (KEYWORD HERE IS "PRE" = BEFORE) (NOT MIXING WITH PRE-IGNITION) BY SO MUCH FRICTION, IT GETS HOT AND STARTS DETONATING. WHEN YOU PUT A 14:1 PISTON IN SOMETHING AND GO GET YOU SOME 87 OCTANE AND PUT IN THERE, IT'S GONNA FIRE BEFORE THE PISTON GETS HALF-WAY UP AND PRE-DETONATE AND TRY TO PUSH THE PISTON THE WRONG WAY. IF YOU GET SOME RACE GAS AND PUT IN THERE, IT WILL RUN FINE. THAT'S MOST OF THE AVERAGE GUY'S DEFINITION OF THIS. IT MAY NOT BE RIGHT SCIENTIFICALLY, BUT MEANING THE SAME THING. THANKS FOR THE INFO - THERE WERE SOME THINGS I NEEDED REFRESHING ON. THANKS MAN!

czrider263

12-09-2006, 07:57 AM

I run a 14:1 baldwin and only had to retard my cam timing while runing the 208 for PV clearence reasons. Now that i am runing a web 943 its timed straight up. And i got another 2hp out of it YEAH.

ricks450

12-09-2006, 11:17 PM

CPRACER - dont take me as an *** im not. what is your occupation if you dont mind me asking? i have been around hotrods my whole life and built alot of motors. i have never met anybody that has knew fuel that well. and be able to explain it that well neither. even in hotrod mags. they aways calling it predontation. that is some good info to have man. i give it to ya, you know your **** dude. i

ricks450

12-10-2006, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by ricks450
CPRACER - dont take me as an *** im not. what is your occupation if you dont mind me asking? i have been around hotrods my whole life and built alot of motors. i have never met anybody that has knew fuel that well. and be able to explain it that well neither. even in hotrod mags. they aways calling it predontation. that is some good info to have man. i give it to ya, you know your **** dude. i RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A 85" PURSHA WE BUILT GROUND UP ITS GOT A 16 POINT ROLLIN CHASSIE, 350 SMALL BLOCK IN IT WITH 10.5:1 WITH 555-306 CAM, KEITH BLACK BALLANCED BOTTOM END AND DART2 IRON EAGALE HEADS 202-160 VALVES, 411 REAREND WOULD OF LIKE TO GOT ALUMINUM HEADS AND LITTILE BIT MORE MOTOR BUT MONEY ISSUES RUNS PRETTY DAMN GOOD THOW.

GPracer2500

12-10-2006, 12:08 AM

Glad to help. I try and speak up when I notice incorrect terms and ideas being used concerning combustion. There's so much misleading (and sometimes flat-out wrong) info out there on the subject. I just try and do my small part to balance things out and try and get folks pointed down the right track.

I'm not an expert. But I have put a lot of time into getting to the bottom of this topic. I'm happy to share what I've learned so others don't have to go through the pains I did to find the good information. Once upon a time I didn't really "get it" and it would have been a lot easier/nicer/less time consuming if someone could have explained it to me. :)