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bracey
11-20-2006, 04:33 PM
has anybody heard if the new rules in or out for the minis and did they raise the ccs in the 90mod class to the new 150 r ???????????????????????????????

mxkids
11-21-2006, 09:33 PM
Found this from another site:
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I am posting this for Phil Mcdowell who is at the mini o's. Phil would like to thank all the riders that voiced their opinions on the 2007 ATVA Grand National Motocross Championship. Doug Morris told Phil today that the classes for 2007 would stay the same as 2006 at the ATVA GNC. i.e 50 Stock Limited/50 Prod. Auto/70 Prod. Auto/70 Shifter Mod/90 Prod. Auto jr/90 Prod. Auto sr/and 90 Mod. *no 150cc 4 stroke or 105cc 2 stroke in the 90 Mod.* * If they do add a class for the youth it would be a 90 Prod. CVT only 8-15yrs class. but this class is not for sure.*

mxkids
11-22-2006, 09:34 AM
Got this off of AMA's website:

Posted November 22, 2006 Email Print

The Board also voted against approval of Congress recommendations that would have increased minimum purses at Pro-Am races and increased displacements in the 90cc ATV racing class.

Finally, the Board voted against immediate enactment of a Congress recommendation that would have made sweeping changes to the AMA competition class structure, eliminating the separate displacement limits for two-stroke and four-stroke machines.

bowtiedmax
11-22-2006, 11:50 AM
I really didnt think that they would increase the cc limit because Doug made that clear a few times that the putting 8yr old kids on 150cc quads would not help in the fight to keep ATV from being banned. Because we have to remember that "quads are dangerous". But I am sure that dads will still be lifting the kids onto the 150 bikes and holding them up untill the gate drops.

But I atleast thought that the would split up the cvt machines. This is very disapointing because I heard so many people talk about "now my kid might have a chance" and excited to try and race again. Hell I even had two local guys all planning to try the Nationals next year. But that was when they thought that it would be a even playing field. I cant understand how they could not see all the people "lost" in the cvt classes because of the Colbras. It would be nice if they made the cvt clases, then they would get all the ones they lost back and still have all the colbras. This is how you make the sport grow.
As for the Mod classes? I truely believe that Doug Morris really works hard to keep ATV laws in are favor, so I cant understant why they would not split up one of the fastest youth classes (2nd to youth production). This class is just plain fast and you can run 8yr olds with 15yr olds. It would be alot nicer if it split like the 90 production classes. Oh well, I quess we know what we are looking at next year.
Paul

mxkids
11-22-2006, 12:28 PM
One of the National racers dad went back and looked up the results from the 2006 season. He said the most that was entered was 31 quads. Only 9 of those were CVTs. I guess numbers speak for themselfs in some since.

I do think they will add the CVT class. I am in favor of it. I may be wrong, but from talking with Doug, and the response that he gave Phil, there is still a chance they will add it.

Sonia Tittle

70 Production Cole "Bubba Tittle" #969 1st Overall 2006
90 Production Jr. Cole "Bubba" Tittle #969 2nd Overall 2006
70 Shifter Cole "Bubba" Tittle #969 3rd Overall 2006

90 Production Sr. Cody Tittle #696 3rd Overall 2006

hr15
11-22-2006, 03:11 PM
How about the WPSA classes?

bowtiedmax
11-22-2006, 03:30 PM
I talked to WPSA today and they should have there clases out next week. But for sure no later then end of Dec. She said they should be the same as last year.

MadSea862
11-22-2006, 04:54 PM
Hey Paul,

Sure hope we get to see you guys again, but it's not looking to promising. We're only going to pick one series and run it.
Local-ATVA- or WPSA. yeh sure we'll hit the local WPSA race at Englishtown, but we arn't going to trek him hundreds of miles for the same old bull**** ya know! Concentrating more on that 300 anyway. So whenever they finally decide to **** or get off that pot then we'll know what we're doing. But we read your message loud and clear.:) Ya know if they do add the class we'll all have to get together and figure out how we're going to get these cvt machines to Cali! Whadda ya think just rent a 18 wheeler for a week? :cool:

Hope to see you soon! Tell Jesse "The Manimal" says Hi!:)



LKB

i-zapp
11-29-2006, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by MadSea862
Ya know if they do add the class we'll all have to get together and figure out how we're going to get these cvt machines to Cali! Whadda ya think just rent a 18 wheeler for a week?
i like it! count me in (if there's a cvt class)!!! :blah:

hey paul, we gotta get together and talk about building a quad like jesse's for us...

geo.

atvracinextra
11-30-2006, 05:42 AM
If the atva does run a 70 and 90 CVT only class and it is Non-points/no championship class/at promoter discretion would you guys still attend 12 rounds to run it?

MadSea862
11-30-2006, 12:30 PM
If the atva does run a 70 and 90 CVT only class and it is Non-points/no championship class/at promoter discretion would you guys still attend 12 rounds to run it


To quote Dave Nevrotski, the ONLY difference between a National Championship and a District championship is $30,000.
:D :D :D :D



So that would be a no for us.



I-Zapp cool your in! 18 wheeler it is!

Rocketman80
12-04-2006, 01:46 AM
Well there's more than just money that separates District race and Nationals and Dave knows that. The problem still is with letting Cobra's run with the CVT's in the 90 Prod. Class. I know if they allow the Cobra's to continue to run in that class we won't have anything to do with it. What fun is it to go race for second place. Spending the big bucks along the way. Not to mention the 18 to 20 hour drives getting to the races. I watched the cobra's all season last year and they would go from dead last in the TT series and come back to pass and lap people at just about every race. So it's obvious the machine has much more power and it's not always the rider as much as the Dad's would want to think they're child is out there just out performing the other kids, it's very obvious when the Cobra just blisters by everyone on the straight stretches. It doesn't make the child on the cobra a better rider, because he doesn't have to exercise his riding skills. He just has to hold down the throttle on the straights. It makes the kids on the slower CVT machines better riders because they have to work harder in the corners. It actually make it's more dangerous because the CVT kids are trying to ride above the machines abilities. I think it's very clear to everyone in the industry and they will make the changes in classes to bring it back to fairness. If they don't, it just might kill the CVT. Let CVT non liquids, non shifting run together and just add another class for the cobra's like they did with the 70 prod. class. What sense does it make to have a fan/air cooled engine running against a Liquid? What sense does it make to have a shifter quad running against CVT's? I mean if you're going to do that why don't they just run all 90's mods/ prods all run together. It would eliminate all the guess work and no one racing would ever bother with a CVT clutched machine. There definitely has to be some restructuring of the classes with these new machines. Wait till they get the APEX liquid 90's dialed in, they will be the next dominate machine in that class because they are liquid cooled. Why would anyone run a National series that allows mixing these quads. This is real easy just voice your opinion to Doug Morris. He wants to know what people are thinking and posting things here aren't getting it done. He's a great guy who will listen, but if no one talks to him or tells him what they are thinking then don't expect any changes. It can't be that difficult to add classes making it fair for everyone. If they don't we won't spend the time or money chasing a National Championship on a CVT machine. We did that last season and it was a waste of time and money. We kept racing knowing we wouldn't do better than second unless the cobra wiped out. You would think that everyone else see's the same things because it's pretty clear.

mxkids
12-04-2006, 08:37 AM
Rocketman,

We do not run TT so I can not say how many Cobras were out there running with the kids. Maybe you can tell us??

But we did run the GNC series, there were only 2 in the Jr class and 2 in the Sr class with the exception of 3 in Illinois. I don't think Cobra was the problem in the GNC series. Just my opion.

Sonia

LT80
12-04-2006, 08:55 AM
"This is real easy just voice your opinion to Doug Morris."
And Morris has what to do with it???? ie: congress votes on rule recomendations then it's the promotors that makes the decision to impliment or not impliment a suggested rule.
I think Doug is a good guy, and would listen, but it ends there.

This is where the problem is. IMO, the santioning body (AMA/ATVA) should have 100% say in making rules. The rules should be black and white and equall from race to race. We all know that it isn't that way now.

"If the atva does run a 70 and 90 CVT only class and it is Non-points/no championship class/at promoter discretion would you guys still attend 12 rounds to run it?"
I sure wouldn't support that! IMO, It'd be stupid to waste time and money for no points.
Promotors discretion is one of the things ruining the series.

Rocketman80
12-04-2006, 12:44 PM
That's just makes no sense to run a series with a specific class and not have it be a championship points series. We can stay home and do that. So I agree with you LT80 the big difference between racing at home and the Nationals is that, sure it costs more, but you get to race with some really great competition. Now how the rules are made exactly I don't know. But at the end of the season last year I was talking with Doug Morris and he told me that when people have a problem the best way to get it solved would be go directly to him. Posting it here on the message board probably isn't going to get you the anwser you're looking for. Whether or not he has a say in how the rules or made or not, I have no idea. But it would only seem fair and with common sense to have simular type machines racing together and when one is mechanically dominate then it should be moved into the appropriate class. So it's my opinion that if you run the 90 Cobra's that are LQ and or a Shifter transmission it should run in the 90 mod class. Not production. And here's the real kicker. Call up Cobra and ask them how many 90 Cobra Production atv's they have. And they will tell you 0. Hmmm Well if there is 0 made then how can they be considered a production ATV. I thought they had to make so many of them to be considered production bikes. Well that's a hole nother can of worms. So I guess the only thing we can do is just sit back and see if they make any changes and keep asking the ATVA how things are going to be run. There are many different flavors of ice cream out there these days.
MXKIDS: We only had a couple cobra's we race against also but you could see they were obviously much faster than the CVT's.

howmuchnow
12-04-2006, 03:00 PM
Rocket how many 70 production quads are being raced, then how many of those manf. produced a 70 ?

mxkids
12-04-2006, 04:18 PM
Rocketman, Same way with the 125 hondas. How many are made from honda that are 125cc??? None. So do you want to go by what mfgs make? If that is the case then honda would only be 90cc. Lt80's would still be a great machine to race.

Sonia

Rocketman80
12-05-2006, 01:14 AM
That's my point exactly. What I am getting at is the definition of Production ATV. I think it needs to be better defined. How come if I were to make a Rocketman ATV I would have to make at least a certain number of them to be able to race in a production class. I guess I missing something here. If I have to produce 75 or 100 machines open to be purchased by the general public then where are these atv's if you're saying they're not being made. Or is this we'll just make the rules up as we go along to suit our needs, promoters or manufacturers. That or shape the rules so it fits into that class. The bottom line is that the Cobra's don't belong in the 90 production class unless they're making the required amount of atv's to be what they call production and have a CVT clutch. Racing should be about the rider not the machine. If you're someone who wants to cheat I can give great advice and save you a bunch of money, just go by the trophy, it's much cheaper.
If you really wanted to see pure racing let there be a stock class that is truly stock. No changing tires no nothing. Then you would see who the best riders are. I think the only class that is even close to that would be the 50's. I guess the only other way to even out the classes would be to radar check. At least for the smaller machines that should only be able to reach a certain speed. So have the 90 productions limited to something like 45 mph. Anyone goes over that you get DQ'd. Kind of like bracket racing. Breakout and you lose. I mean how else can you make these things, even mechanically. At this level the kids are racing for trophies not money. But yet we're spending money modifying our kids atv's as if they were pro's trying to give them an advantage where ever we can. Then when you try to get rid of your kids racing atv, you end up selling it for less than half of what you got into it. When does common sense come into play. There are no pro's in the 50, 70, or 90 classes that I know of. And if you look at the percentage of kids that actually become pro racers and make it as a factory racer, you probably have a better chance of your child becoming a pro football player. I mean we can sit here and complain about it all day long but if you're going to put the energy into the complaint, you should look for a solution too. So post the solution to the problems. Let the promoters and manufacturers know, tell anyone who will listen that has influence on how the rules are made. It's certainly not me. I'm just the dummy who just keeps dumping money into a bottomless pit.

howmuchnow
12-05-2006, 04:58 AM
Problem ( rocketman80's thoughts) so you want a return on investment put your money in the fuel market.

solution (stay home rocket and watch the market with all that money you invested in the fuel market. I will try and help with demand taking my 2 kids to the races.)

Rocketman80
12-05-2006, 08:09 AM
Although your comment was well thought out it didn't really cover the subject at hand on how to structure the classes and whether or not you would continue to race for no points and no championship.
Hey not everyone has money to just toss around like you, so yes I want to be wise on how we approach racing and whether it's actually worth it at this level. Ya know what they say a fool and his money are soon parted. LOL
Fuel market might not be a bad place to invest coming into the winter season. Thanks for the advice. :P~~~

mxkids
12-05-2006, 09:00 AM
Rocketman, First of all you don't go to the little league world series with a $2.00 plastic bat. 2nd of all we don't plan on going to the nationals on a half ***** race quad. We go for competition. to race the best to race those that have more money. In order for my child to be the fastest at his age level this is the price you pay. My point is competion cost money. Some ties up more then others. The ones that don't can only hope of the rider pervaling by sure talent. We won a lot of races on CVTS. They are a thing of the past now for us and as many others. It is the same thing as trying to run 4 stroke A class with a 400ex. In a field of 450s. They just don't have it anymore. OLD SCHOOL. That is why Honda put reverse on them. Put them on the trails not the track. You won't to race buy a race quad. Some people can't afford a race quad they either look at pictures or they come and watch and cheer on their favorite rider or mfg. Quit singling out the Cobra when Honda is also a shifter but nobody said anything about them untii they went to 125cc. Now they are a serious threat. You don't hear me b******* about them, we love the competion. Win or lose we are there to have fun and family time togeather. And sometimes we get to win a race or two. If we don't win we try harder the next time.

As far all the classes you are talking about that is insaine.

Homoligation you need to read the rule book put out by AMA. This book has been out for many years now. Every mfg has to abide by this book in order to have a competiton legal machine. All the questions you have are explained in the rules. If you can't find one I am sure someone can get you a copy or feel free to call Doug Morris. He has multiply copies at every national race. Free of charge.

The reason you can run a cobra in the 90 production class is because it is a production bike. Built on a production line. In a factory. Just like honda, suzuki so on and so on. the rules say 71cc to 90cc. The rules say you can take a small cc motor and increase it for the next class up. But you can not take a large motor and decrease the cc's for a smaller class. Wow, it is amazing what you can learn when you read what has been put in front of you. Everybody that is an AMA or ATVA member recieves a monthly magazine that comes out with the rule book sometime around Feb.. I personally have been carring one to the race track with me since 1999. I have read the rule book many times. I suggest you try it. I believe it will clear up some of your issues. Now you can't go and say stupid stuff like cobra paid off Doug Morris so Cobras could be legal. That is just stupid. Cobra is a very small company with a tight budget. They do something a little differnet then most companies. They give to kids. They give them something that is safe while they are racing. When is the last time you saw a Cobra wreck? Or is it that Cobra riders just don't wreck. My son rides his Cobra because he feels safe. He has confidence in the machine, that it is not going to throw him off it he makes a mistake. That is why we ride Cobras. And everybody else that is on a Cobra will probably tell you the same thing. Put your son a Cobra, let him tell you what he thinks about it. Until you have riden one or own you will never understand.

Brandon Tittle

Rocketman80
12-05-2006, 01:34 PM
Ya know what... You're right... You seem to really have a handle on it all. Hope we race against you guys I'm sure it would be a real hoot. Sounds to me like you should just buy the trophy and save yourself the expense. Hey there you go... you made a good point maybe they should let the Honda's and the Cobra's run in their own little class they seem to be about the same and let Air Cooled 90 CVT's run together. I find it hard to believe that anyone here doesn't see that mechanically the Cobra's are much faster. So yeah let's throw them in a class where they can just dominate. If you wanted it to be fair and the cobra riders aren't afraid of a little competition, put the cobra in the 90 mod class. The seem to run more equal than they do with the CVT 90's.
And you're obviously not understanding what I'm saying or you're taking it all the wrong way. I'm not against or for Cobra's or Honda's or Polaris or Kasea. It's about making the class equal so it becomes a riders race instead of someone just having a dominate machine on the track that can go out and win everytime because we spent the most money. I mean if knew that Tim Farr or Keith Little were going to win every race and no one else had a chance then what would be the sense of watching. Make it riders race and we'll be there and we'll win.
Then we can see who's complaining. Ya see it's people exactly like you that are killing the sport instead of helping it grow and evolve. You think if you're spending more money or we have a secret part or trick that makes us faster than everyone else, what are you really proving. Nothing unless you're in a mod class where it might matter. These are suppose to be production bikes and there is nothing production about them. Production means how it comes off the factory line to me, anyways. It should be called Improved Stock not production. The term "Production" makes me think "Stock" but that's not how it works. We've been with ATVA since 2001 and the funny thing is I've never gotten a rule book but I have read one each year with all the supplemental changes. So how hard would it be to have and run the CVT's in there own class?What would be wrong with it? I'm not here to argue with anyone so just answer the simple questions. I didn't even start this thread, it just interests me because the Subject: Rules and the topic was whether or not you would continue to race a series that didn't have a points championship for your class. My anwser is "NO" I wouldn't either. Ya know I love ATV racing, I think it's one of the greatest sports there is. I only want to make it better and fair for everyone. I encourage people to go to races and see what it's all about. I've literally brought people Nationals so they can see all the excitement. I promote this sport at other venues like snocross racing, trying to get them to cross over and try atv's. So please don't lecture me on how much you know and what it takes to win at the Nationals. We're already there doing it.
Let's just give you an example of what happens when someone dominates a class. First off you get called a cheater. And I know we've been there and I've always challenged anyone who wanted to tech us. Go right ahead I can use the extra hundred. And when a rider is dominate because the machine is just obviously faster than everyone on the track, it kind of takes the fun out racing against someone you know you can't beat because the machine is dominate, not the rider. So then you end up with people not wanting to race that class because of it. Now if you tech everyone and the machines are equal and fair then you attract people to want to race that class. I'm just saying let's make the classes more equal and more attractive. I know if we have to race against the cobra's again this year with our CVT we won't and we'll just move up to 90 mod. And please don't involve me with anything you said in your comment, I never said anything about Doug Morris getting paid off by Cobra. That's insane and according to LT80 Doug doesn't really make the rules or have anything to do with it. I don't know what you guys are doing but I'm stepping away from this thread. Not interested in arguing with anyone about this. Make the classes equal and fair and we'll be there. That's all I'm saying.

mxkids
12-05-2006, 02:29 PM
Rocketman, not here to argue just stating what I think is fair. If you go back and look I have always said there needs to be a CVT class. You show me any quad that is running the nationals that is stock as you want to call it. There is not any. I promise you, you do not want to race a cobra stock for stock. That is unfair. when you want to talk about aftermarket parts, there is no differnece in our produciton parts coming on our bike. For example the shocks that we run are similar units that comes on every pol. pred 500. The rm85 that my son races came stock with a sunstar rear sprocket. Does that mean that it is not production because it is an after market mfg? No it does not. Biggest majority of the parts that goes into making a cobra quad is built by cobra. we are running our production bike just like it came. No aftermarket a arms, swingarm, ect. If you want to talk mod and stock and say that we belong in a mod class when most bikes that we race against have a 10x's more modified parts then we do. From stock that is. If you have been a member of AMA or ATVA since 2001 then you should have your own rule book, which I get in the mail every year.

What are you going to do when they do add a CVT class and it has to be STOCK form. When you can't change anything. Maybe that will make you happy. But I am not going to put my son out own a track with a STOCK bike as you call it. The suspension alone is enough to get someone hurt.

This is the only way I have seen to make the mfgs step up and build safer quads. ATVA didn't give the 400ex it's own class when they allowed 450's to race. I hope you get what you want. Don't forget this is my opion just like it is yours.

By the way the thread was actually about the rule changes. I really don't appreciate you saying that it is people llike me that is hurting the sport. I could have easily said the same thing about you trying to hold the sport back.

As far as the 90 mod class goes, my son will be racing in it this year as well as the Production classes.

Brandon Tittle

Dirtblast
12-05-2006, 04:29 PM
It seems to me every time "Cobra" is mentioned somebody gets their panties in a wad. Why? Because someone built a better mini quad that is faster, lighter, better geometry for better suspension and handling( which also makes it SAFER) that they can shift. That's a bad thing?? Come on people!!! The mini class is evolving, it might not be going the way some people or parents would like it to, but it is for the best. I do agree though there should be a cvt only class.The cvts are old school now but they are a great learning quad for the mini racers and shouldn't be put out to pasture. Maybe one day other companies will step up like Cobra and there won't be a mod. class. Look at the money you'll save with that move.( $7000 instead of $16,000) The fair thing to do would be to(until things change): Cobra and Honda 125 class and cvt only class.

Gus Gentry

chickenman26
12-05-2006, 05:09 PM
do you guys ever get tired of posting how great cobras are an they are a fine machines I see that most people agree just dont want to race cvts against them or the hondas we would like to race apples to apples thats all cvt class would be great and when
theres enough cobras and hondas make a new class for them
I'm done I hope you guys are to:)

mxmike17
12-05-2006, 05:24 PM
Why does nobody complain about the DRR's dominating the 50 class? I had to go buy a new bike to be competive there last year. Our AC just wouldnt cut it.

mxkids
12-05-2006, 05:55 PM
Gus, Could not agree more.

Brandon

raidernut
12-06-2006, 07:29 AM
because the drx is dominating the 50 class with a $1800 price tag not $8000

howmuchnow
12-06-2006, 08:26 AM
Raider ask yourself this question how much money does the average national rider have in their cvt ? . I know I could own a cobra for a lot less than what I have in mine. My son would be safer and maybe faster if he was on a cobra . Yes we raced them in the nats. last year and had fun trying to chase them down. Some of you put to much into winning. I tell my son to go out there and be safe try your hardest and most importantly have fun. No we dont win but I spent the weekend with my family and friends from all over the country haveing FUN.

mxkids
12-06-2006, 09:50 AM
Dominating the class that is what they say Cobra is doing. Regardless of price tag wouldn't that be the same thing. I agree DRX is by far the fastest 50 CVT in the limited class. Why would anyone run anything different in this class? Does this mean they need a DRX 50 class by itself and then let everybody else run?

What is going to happen when the CVTs get their own class (if they get their own class) have to run against a kymco 125 4 stroke cvt. The bike that Skavarek (?SP) that he won the 90 production jr on. These bikes are fast. Much faster than any other CVTs. After they beat everybody, which they already have, do they need to be in a class by theirselfs?

My point is if you have 5 or 6 of each one of these bikes in the classes that they are designed to run in with descent riders, everybody else is fighting for the scraps left over. In my opion better machines won't come out if mfgs don't have to step up. We are watching it now in the 450 class with the introduction of the latest 450 quads that are currently on the market. would these quads ever have been built if the mfg didn't won't to be number one?

Brandon Tittle

michmike420
12-06-2006, 05:50 PM
I don't see the problum,it is run what you brung(within the rules).My daughter got her butt kicked by the cobras all year in the 90production sr class,i just took that as she needed to ride harder.speed wise the cobras are no faster,Brittany got many holeshots.I guess some people like to whine.

mxkids
12-08-2006, 08:22 PM
Britanny is a great rider. My hats off to her. I never seen her give up. She always gave 110% no matter what. She spanked a lot of riders butts including Cody's more then once.

Brandon