New AMA atv championships, no 2 strokes?

[CorvetteZ06]

hey guys, reading the opening page on atv riders, and noticed that the AMA is finally giving ATV racing some respect. but it only says 450cc machines can race. After it says they will open up a 250cc class, but i assume this is for the new 250 4 strokes? does anybody know? if 250R's are banned from AMA racing, that will trully be sad. :confused:

[matt250r21]

It would be so cool if the let the 250R in the pro class again. With the right racer, the R would kill the thumpers.... JJ!!

[deathman53]

sadly I think they are. When will these guys learn, a 250r is still a better race bike than most of the 450's. I will be racing trikes next year and I might bring my tx250r to a race or two also. But this is at a outlaw track. Don't you know, those new 450's are so much better than 250r's, you can leave a 250r in the dust on a 450???????

Atleast that is what the magazines and factories (that payed off the ama to stop the 250r in pro class) want you to think. Atv sport had a trx330r vs stock lt450r, they put that the lt450r killed it, but what they forgot to put was that the 250r had mx gearing, shorter swinger, mx pipe, basically full mx setup with paddle tires put on. If they raced the 250r with atleast a stock sized swinger and more suitable gearing and a top end pipe, it would have killed the lt450r, but they very conviently forgot to put that down. I'm convinced the factories are paying off the magazines to say that the new 450's are so much better. I can see it, in another 10 years racing on a mx track on a 250r is gonna be like me racing a trike on them like I do now. You will get alot of kids that never seen a 2 stroke quad(I get alot of kids that never seen a trike). Haven't you noticed????? 250r motor parts have been disappering in the past 3 years, why????? so honda can sell the new fangled 450's, then came the pro class ruling, then pro production and now no 2 strokes at all, this is really getting sad!!!!!!! In another 10 years I will still be mx racing my trikes and still be riding my 250r's.

[CorvetteZ06]

yeah, its sad, if they ban 2 strokes from competition that will be the nail in the coffin. :rolleyes:

[deathman53]

its pretty sad, 20 years later, they still can't beat the original, so they just ban the original, to elimate completition against the new stuff. gotta love it, commercial companies at their best, they can't beat the competition, so just eliminate them to make their new stuff seem winners.

[broke]

I guess it's time we all admit, the corporations call the shots. **** I remember a rule being "changed" to let a certain brand race that wouldn't comply with a 440cc rule.

[rebelbanshee]

funny thing about that is the rule before that was changed to allow an engine and the rule before that was changed to allow and engine. 400 then 426 then 440 now 450

anyone see KTMs new (yes all new) 250SX? its only 208lbs. lighter than allowed in AMA pro class. hmm sounds like another rule in favor of 4 strokes, not letting lightweight 2 strokes be lightweight.

Imagine if KTM used their new 250 mill in a good frame...it would be 330lbs easy

[Scott-300ex]

Yeh man I think its all bogus and pisses all of us off.

2-strokes are faster so we won't let them race so we can sell our new stuff.

Its f-in rediculous.

But I'll tell you one thing. At my tracks I'll always be racin my 250r and I will NEVER stop riding my 250r!!!!!!!! Cuz to me, I've ridden 300ex's, 400ex's, 450r's and yfz450's, but to me, there is nothing like a 250r!!!!! The power, how fast it is, as soon as you hit the gas, you either, take off quick, roost, or the front end comes up on you. Nothin like the 250r!!!!!!!!!!!!! Will always be number 1 for me!

[TWILES]

I guess I'm the bad guy here but I love the fact that the AMA is going to actually endose ATV racing. I started racing 2-strokes and they are cheaper in the long run and lighter and I think just as much fun to ride but they are long gone in the up to date point of view. I stopped racing after Lorretta Lynn's in 2003 after a bad day with my Banshee and the fact my father was at home dying of cancer didn't help any. I was an A rider then and would love to start back. This would just make it that much more enjoyable. The tracks would be better taken care of and we might actually see factory sized rigs hauling in the factory riders for a change along with the rest of the big sponsors that the bikes have. WE COULD EVEN SEE IT ON TV...REAL TV. Not stupid OLN Racer TV highlights. Nice try but it sucks. I even emailed the ATVA about a 250cc class for the 13 - 15 year olds after seeing a few BIG wrecks involving 16 year olds who had never really ridden before, talked their inexpirienced parents into a 450, and decided they are going pro. Needless to say I was told that it would never happen since there is no class for anyone younger than the age of 16 to ride an atv with the displacement of more than 90cc. I thought it was strange that the ATVA guy didn't even know that the ATVA even HAD a class for these under 16ers(300cc production 13 - 15 years old). If nothing else mabe the ATV nationals would atleast be in the hands of people who care enough to know what is going on. Seeing that most ATVA members are racers...the ones who pay these people....I think that was really sad. One more thing to the nonbelievers, money talks and without exposure to the people who should be watching the races on TV, its not coming. Having a $15000 - $20000 bike with no way at all to make any of that money back is like the elephant man having a 12" dick. You can play with it but thats all its good for.

[D Bergstrom]

I do not know how the AMA ATV rules will be written, but I know for the AMA pro motorcycles in supercross and motocross, the bike that is being ridden must be a current production motorcycle. (It is based on having a certain number of bikes available for sale in the US.) Ufortunately, the TRX250R is no longer in production, so that is why it is probably not being allowed. (Or any two strokes for that matter.) I do not think they are banning two stroke ATV's, they are just not made anymore, and therefore are not allowed per the rules. :(

Doug

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by deathman53
Atleast that is what the magazines and factories (that payed off the ama to stop the 250r in pro class) want you to think. Atv sport had a trx330r vs stock lt450r, they put that the lt450r killed it, but what they forgot to put was that the 250r had mx gearing, shorter swinger, mx pipe, basically full mx setup with paddle tires put on. If they raced the 250r with atleast a stock sized swinger and more suitable gearing and a top end pipe, it would have killed the lt450r, but they very conviently forgot to put that down. I'm convinced the factories are paying off the magazines to say that the new 450's are so much better. I can see it, in another 10 years racing on a mx track on a 250r is gonna be like me racing a trike on them like I do now. You will get alot of kids that never seen a 2 stroke quad(I get alot of kids that never seen a trike). Haven't you noticed????? 250r motor parts have been disappering in the past 3 years, why????? so honda can sell the new fangled 450's, then came the pro class ruling, then pro production and now no 2 strokes at all, this is really getting sad!!!!!!! In another 10 years I will still be mx racing my trikes and still be riding my 250r's.

What is truely amazing about that article is that I beat piped 450's up sand hills on my midrange ported 270. You guys are right, businesses rule policy - you better believe it. The buck talks and when it does people wiht their hand out will listen. If you're a 2stroke fan, stock up on parts. They're everywhere being dumped by these kids with magazine articles like that one in their hands and their cash for cams, valves, and maintenance cost money in the other. The manufacturers are f**king them in the a**. So give me your R parts bi**h! F**k em! Just don't get your p**sy juices on me after I get sand in your eye passing you, or when I go riding while you're wondering what that odd thunking noice in your top end is. Fu** you...

[TWILES]

I don't live in California and have never ridden in the sand but I did have a Krank-It motored 250R with a 37 tooth rear sproket that would take off in 3rd with my 225lb *** on it and I did take a LTR450 with a pipe and cherry bomb on it for a spin and I'm not seeing where the magazine got their conclusion on that test between the 330R and STOCK Suzuki. So back to iamjasyn's point....They are getting the attention away from the 2-strokes so when the ill-informed 14 + yearolds read the article they want a 450.

[gbcap]

no...ama is not getting paid by manufactures. ama is looking out for the well being of our sport. 2 strokes are not being made anymore, so they pulled them from pro competition since it would not benefit the pros running them. if they still ran them people would want that quad instead of a 450 just cause the pros run them. that would lower the sales on the 450. get the manufactures uninterested in our sport again and it would die off again.

i personally don't want that. i love my dads 250r, but you won't ever see them in the pro ranks again. reason being, they just don't compete anymore. ask any pro, paid or not paid, and they will say the 450 just out does it. period. if they were still the top bike they would be run in the pro-am and a classes. but they aren't so it proves it just isn't the best bike anymore.

not dissing the bike in anyway. it is an awesome bike. still have one in the garage but it won't ever see the pro ranks again. we just have to deal with that. even if you don't like to 450's that is were the industry is heading. mulitple reasons, but mainly for polution. you won't have 2 stroke bikes soon either.

[juanki]

Originally posted by gbcap

not dissing the bike in anyway. it is an awesome bike. still have one in the garage but it won't ever see the pro ranks again. we just have to deal with that. even if you don't like to 450's that is were the industry is heading. mulitple reasons, but mainly for polution. you won't have 2 stroke bikes soon either.

not all true, there is a company in spain called gas gas that makes a production 2 stroke, the wild 300.

also another company from spain, is in the works of making a 2 strokes atv for production, using a gas gas 250 engine, with a lone star frame and other goodies, it will be an aftermarket, production quad, i dont think that you or I in that matter will see these bikes in america. our hope is gas gas and ktm to make production 250 2 strokes quads

back to the subject, rules are rules, if companies wolud make 2 strokes quads, they wolud be allowed, but the comapies are not showing any interest in that, so eventually 2 strokes will die in quad and in motocross bike racing, because honda still makes 2 strikes bikes for GP1.

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS

http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/rs250r/index.html

a v twin 2 strokes race bike

[gbcap]

Originally posted by juanki
not all true, there is a company in spain called gas gas that makes a production 2 stroke, the wild 300.

also another company from spain, is in the works of making a 2 strokes atv for production, using a gas gas 250 engine, with a lone star frame and other goodies, it will be an aftermarket, production quad, i dont think that you or I in that matter will see these bikes in america. our hope is gas gas and ktm to make production 250 2 strokes quads

back to the subject, rules are rules, if companies wolud make 2 strokes quads, they wolud be allowed, but the comapies are not showing any interest in that, so eventually 2 strokes will die in quad and in motocross bike racing, because honda still makes 2 strikes bikes for GP1.

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS

http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/rs250r/index.html

a v twin 2 strokes race bike

but your leaving out a key ingrediant...i won't be able to be sold in the US. therefor making it ALOT harder to get into the US and alot more expensive.

and back to your comment...why are people bashing the ama if its the companies that arn't willing to make the bikes?

[gbcap]

i couldn't find the epa laws...but i do believe you can't buy a 2 stroke quad in cali after 2008? which is why this is the last year for the banshee?


Jump on a 2-stroke engine snowmobile this winter, and you may as well just dump ¼ of all the gas you use directly into the snow and air. Unlike automobile engines, which have been continuously modified for decades to increase efficiency and reduce emissions, the 2-stroke gasoline engine has not been improved significantly since it was introduced in the 1940s. 2-stroke gasoline engines, which take in fuel and emit exhaust in the same stroke, still dump from 25-30% of their fuel unburned directly into our environment.

that just doesn't seem good for our environment. if they update those numbers to better numbers they might get a lot better response.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by gbcap
i couldn't find the epa laws...but i do believe you can't buy a 2 stroke quad in cali after 2008? which is why this is the last year for the banshee?


From what I heard, 2006 is the last year for "off-road" two strokes, such as the Banshee. Two strokes are still allowed to be sold new, but they are to be considered "closed course competion only" that is why all the manufacterers are still making two stroke bikes. Honda is already doing away with there two stroke line now that the new CRF150 is out. Last year you can by a new CR85, CR125, and CR250 is 2007. I would be willing to bet the other three japanese builders will be soon to follow. I think the only real manufacturer to keep building two stroke bikes will be KTM. As far as KTM putting a two stroke motor in a quad, I do not see it happening, but anything is possible.


Doug

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by gbcap
no...ama is not getting paid by manufactures. ama is looking out for the well being of our sport. 2 strokes are not being made anymore, so they pulled them from pro competition since it would not benefit the pros running them. if they still ran them people would want that quad instead of a 450 just cause the pros run them. that would lower the sales on the 450. get the manufactures uninterested in our sport again and it would die off again.

i personally don't want that. i love my dads 250r, but you won't ever see them in the pro ranks again. reason being, they just don't compete anymore. ask any pro, paid or not paid, and they will say the 450 just out does it. period. if they were still the top bike they would be run in the pro-am and a classes. but they aren't so it proves it just isn't the best bike anymore.

not dissing the bike in anyway. it is an awesome bike. still have one in the garage but it won't ever see the pro ranks again. we just have to deal with that. even if you don't like to 450's that is were the industry is heading. mulitple reasons, but mainly for polution. you won't have 2 stroke bikes soon either.

Ah, great valid observation. And perfect timing too. Because what I see, to get that “superiority” is that they HAD to change the cc class rules to add a 450cc engine to a 250cc class race. No one overlooked that right? So since we’re saying that this 450cc engine is a better 250cc class motor then why don’t we just bend them further and throw a 600cc CBR motor in the chassis because I have a sneaking suspicion that it will simply out do it too.

In peak hp straight line racing, my 270 2stroke generally walks right away from the tightly wound 450 4stroke. So when Honda/Yam/Suz can put their 250F in the 250cc class with 250R’s THEN I will say, good job. So DO NOT tell me the 4stroke is a better small engine racing motor, regardless of what races 250R’s are no longer top dog in. Otherwise, drop in that cbr motor. Because in the racing you’re making this rider’s choice comparison in it’s classed by cc, so if you want to compare apples to apples then develop a 450cc class race, and then I bet racers will abandon the 450 for a 290 or 310 pv with reliable 60’s hp and completely mop the floor with it with LESS cc’s, AND cheaper, AND without the valves, cams, and rev limiter (what a joke) to protect that smog equipment.

As far as the environment is concerned regarding dumping 25% of the unburned fuel into the atmosphere, well that’s the cost of doing business with a simple power plant with probably less than ¼ of the mass and moving parts in the combustion area and almost double the power output, cc per cc. The less glamorous, non-marketing bottom line is the 4stroke is a viable solution to help us meet evolving emissions standards. Unfortunately the design of the 4stroke is not as power efficient as the polluting 2stroke. So to replace it, consumers have to pay for those emissions friendly, large parts, and cc class rules have to be bent… oh and did I say that CONSUMERS have to pay for those emissions friendly parts? A: You bet, sucker! By the way, pro’s usually have sponsors. Sponsors pay the bills for those short lifetime motors (when raced). So monkey B see cooler monkey A racing a 450. Monkey B buys 450 and rides it hard like a 250 2stroke. Monkey B pays a lot of money. Silly monkey.

[iamjasyn]

By the way, 06 was the last year for 2stroke ATV's in America. YOu can still get them in Canada. Check out the 07 Banshee. Pretty cool looking actually: 07 banshee (canada) (http://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/products.php?model=2079&class=78&group=A|&LANG=en)

[atvmxr]

I remember back in 1995 Yamaha said that 1996 or 97 was the last year of the Banshee........:rolleyes:


I want to go off on an engineering tangent. If the motor is twice as big, how is that any better???? Now instead of creating 250CC of exhaust you are creating 450cc's. That is an extra 200cc's of exhaust to stop 60cc's (25% of 250) of "bad" exhaust. That is still 140 more cc's of exhaust which is being produced:confused:

[iamjasyn]

Check out the sales blurb on the Canada web site for the CR250. Contrast it to the one for American consumers. The American one doesn't say anything that would discredit the 4stroke. EPA American markets have to go 4stroke and marketing is meeting that challenge.

Canada:
The CR250R's irresistible combination of explosive power and light weight makes it a favourite among riders who prefer the performance and feel of a two-stroke motocross bike. With an engine and chassis that have been tweaked and perfected year after year, championship after championship, the CR250R is at the top of its game in 2007. And because it's built with quality components and careful attention to the smallest detail, you can depend on the CR250R to take you to the checkered flag with a minimum of maintenance hassles.

America:
Winning championships for over 30 years, including the first-ever perfect season in AMA MX history, the CR250R is simply the best 250-class two-stroke that's ever been. Awesome two-stroke power and ultra-trick, aluminum-framed chassis technology combine to create a machine as potent as it is nimble. Which is why you should ride one now—or chase one later.

there is alot of things i am still confused about....what about the whole "fair fight" rule change witch made a 250 2 stroke Vs a 250 4 stroke class?

and what about the new SX250 2 stroke NOT being able to race in the pros because it was too light? :confused: :rolleyes:

its obvious everyone is agenst 2 strokes and its sad to think that the R was banned from racing....I showed up to the track this year just to practice and everyone looked at me like i was from another planet.....

i wish everything was just black and white with this toic because it does get confusing with rule changes, and to what can race with what....etc...

as to the whole snowmobling comments, its obvious most of you guys dont pay close attention to the sled world...snowmoblies have improved drasticly over the past 5-10 years with polution...thats why the majority of the sleds out there are still 2 stroke....and in 2 stroke sleds the company dont hold much back....EFI, new updated chassis, new suspension, options of carb VS EFI...big twin and 3 and even 4 cylenders were made in the past....HP numbers going past the 150 mark... just to think if they did that with lets say the banshee....aluminum frame, EFI OR CARB, new updated suspension, wider stance, lighter and more powerful and fuel efficent motor...the list goes on and on...if they did that like they do with sleds, the banshee and R would dominate the racing scene....comapre a old 1980s sled to the new age sleds....compared the 1986 CR 250 tot he 2006 CR 250...huge difference right? well why can a aluminum frame, EFI, 450cc motor barly outrun a 250 steel frame, carbed motor?....bottom line is if the ATV scene would stop shooting themselve in the foot (manfucatures too) then the sport would grow a ton!

[250Renvy]

I really don't know what is going on with the manufacturers going 4-stroke for racing purposes.
The EPA and other organizations must have a lot of clout because CC for CC the 2stroke spanks the fourstroke.

Can you just imagine what the ATV world would be like if the Lawsuits didn't happen in the late 80's. The manufacturers would have continued to produce competition ATV's and put research money into 2-strokes and improved them from year to year like the bikes.

Bombardier/Evinrude/Can-am produces computer controlled 2-stroke outboard motors. If you ever get a chance to watch an infomercial they have direct competitions with Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki and beat it on every level. They have developed environmentally friendly, more fuel effiencient 2-strokes but you'll still never see it in quads. It's sad.

I think I have at least 4x as much fun riding a 2-stroke than a 4-stroke.

Anybody know if they will let 2-stokes in the open classes?

[outlaw450r]

Originally posted by iamjasyn
What is truely amazing about that article is that I beat piped 450's up sand hills on my midrange ported 270. You guys are right, businesses rule policy - you better believe it. The buck talks and when it does people wiht their hand out will listen. If you're a 2stroke fan, stock up on parts. They're everywhere being dumped by these kids with magazine articles like that one in their hands and their cash for cams, valves, and maintenance cost money in the other. The manufacturers are f**king them in the a**. So give me your R parts bi**h! F**k em! Just don't get your p**sy juices on me after I get sand in your eye passing you, or when I go riding while you're wondering what that odd thunking noice in your top end is. Fu** you...
With all the cussing, sounds like your frustrated about owning a dying breed of quads. By the way George Washington called, he wants his quad back.

[rea]

Its not about owning a dieing breed it s about a superior machine being bullied out by money and corporation.Pros ride what there told or there not pro!!!!No sponsor no ride.Thats the point if your a kid and your fav racer rides this ----what are you going to want---Its no secret 4 strokes not only cost more there more to maintain and or race.Of coarse there going to try and convince you its a better machine they want you to buy one or for you to buy your kid one and it doesnt hurt you only have one option now.As usual you are told what you want and what the next best thing is and the sad part is that there are enough simple minded people around that will always fallow the crowd.Ama,atva, whatever they dont care 4 strokes bring in the corporations and big sponsors who in the long run are only out to sell product and make money.Which is sad good or bad money makes the world go round.

[Scro]

Why can't you all just be happy that the sport is growing, 2-stroke or not? It's not like it is illegal to own a 2-stroke. Just be glad that atv's are finally getting some attention in the form of a new series.

[CorvetteZ06]

Originally posted by outlaw450r
With all the cussing, sounds like your frustrated about owning a dying breed of quads. By the way George Washington called, he wants his quad back.


george washington, huh? wow, must have taken you all day to come up with that one.:rolleyes:

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by outlaw450r
With all the cussing, sounds like your frustrated about owning a dying breed of quads. By the way George Washington called, he wants his quad back.
With a comment like that I almost can tell that you can read.


Anyway, just be happy? Well, ok, but stop trying to
1) tell me that this 4stroke technology is somehow new and that's why it's here
2) lay the environmental microscope on atv's when in my layman's opinion, there are much larger, heaftier political $pills to worry about in other industries
3) sell me a ride that I do NOT perfer riding much less want to pay extra for!

By the way, can they at least make it look like something other than a japanese cartoon insect too? Not only do they sound like a**, but looks like it should come with a pokemon card set and Hentai bubble gum machine as well... Maybe they can sell you your nuts back after you leave the showroom so you don't feel like a complete fem on the back of your new cute butterfly...

haha this thread is getting sweet....if the R wasnt bullied out of racing there still would be tons of them buzzing around...its sad that 20 years later they havnt found a 4 stroke that can compete

[250Renvy]

Here's what I really don't get. Here they are bringing back 2-strokes for international race bikes but not quads. I have a feeling that they aren't against producing 2-strokes but the lawsuites back in the 80's has something in there about it because Honda got his the hardest, then Suzuki and Yamaha wasn't terribly affected which is why I suspect they were able to keep producing the banshee and blaster but without changing it besides plastic/decals.


I GAURANTEE you put one of these motors in a quad and it flat out smokes any new 450 even with the extra weight.
http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/rs250r/index.html
Or imagine this 500cc 2stroke v-twin
http://www.rbimports.com.au/Sales.html#NSR500

[iamjasyn]

Oh wow that is cool. I didn't know Honda still made 2stroke street bikes. My dad used to tell me about those. I thought that was one of the EPA's first recreational riding victims. Well it was since you can't ride that on the street... I would buy that. I bet they're a lot lighter than the CBRs...

[CorvetteZ06]

yeah, i was reading about those GP bikes, on researching in the forums, they are aparantly crazy fast and super light. especially the 500's. from what i read they smoke the cbr's.

really they are smoking the CBRs? i assume the 600's...f i were to get a bike i would buy one of those 2 strokes... the lighter the better...anyways back on topic...the 250r kicks major as$