hp numbers

[juanki]

how much power dos your rides put.

i been trying to figure this out because i want to know the diference between a 250 2 strokes and a 450 four strokes.

i have a post about racing rules in the open forum, but nobody seems to care, so i figure that my feloww 250 riders will.

i was reading the atva rules and saw that in the pro-production class they still alow 2 strokes, but since there is no 2 strokes on production, its a no go, but i was thinking that if KTM was to put their 2 strokes engine in their new quad, they can make it legal to race in the pro production. i came to this, becasue there is a spanish company that will start to make a production 2 strokes quad in spain using gas gas engines and a lone star frame, the article stated that they are planig to make it a production race quad.

then i just want to know that if a bored 250 or a 265 cc 2 strokes can keep up with the power of a 450 4 strokes.

for what i have read the thumpers make about 60 hp

[iamjasyn]

That's kind of a heated topic and there is plenty on here about it. Do a search and you'll see what people think. 2strokers are touchy about it because some feel slighted by the lack of epa/manufacturer support for their favorite platform...

Take the emotions out of it and the 450 is a very fast motor for a 450 4stroke with a nice broad torque curve. It lacks the reliability of a traditional small motor 4stroke though. 60hp I think is doable more easily than a stock 250 cyl but not without stretching the motor even more. By comparison a well tuned setup with a pro-x 290/310 pv ported by a good tuner should give low 60's with good reliability and a pretty broad torque curve. I don't know what gas gas motors do.

[Kirt13]

Go in to the "Dyno Testing" page. Tons of stuff on HP.

[juanki]

Originally posted by Kirt13
Go in to the "Dyno Testing" page. Tons of stuff on HP.

coudntot find it, i guess that is in tis site. can some one put the link to it. pls

thx.

[Aughtx]

Originally posted by juanki
coudntot find it, i guess that is in tis site. can some one put the link to it. pls

thx.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=99

[wilkin250r]

I hate to say it, but times are changing.

When the 400EX came out, it still couldn't touch the 250r. The suspension was pretty close, but it still didn't have the power.

A 265 can easily be modified for over 60HP, but if you want a ridable powerband for track racing, mid 50s is about wher you end up. The 400EX is really difficult to get 50HP, even bored out to 440, and the bigger bores like Raptors and DS650s weren't legal in the same class.

But things have changed since the new generation of 450s. They can be modified to 60HP, and STILL have that nice ridable powerband that 4-strokes are known for. In fact, I would say it's almost easier for the new 4-strokes to hit 60HP than it is for the old 2-strokes. That's tough to compete with. The 250r could still be competative, but I honestly don't think it's top-dog anymore in the race world.

However, when you start getting into unlimited displacement and drag-racing, the old 2-strokes are still top-notch. Even though the new 4-strokes are easier to get to 60HP, they don't go significantly higher. There isn't a 4-stroke out there that can compete with the power of a 350PV, Sabertooth, or Cheetah Banshee.

[fireburns99]

Originally posted by wilkin250r

When the 400EX came out, it still couldn't touch the 250r. The suspension was pretty close, but it still didn't have the power.


You really think the 400EX suspension is anywhere near the 250R? I've ridden a couple and it just felt wierd, almost like i was too high and on top of the bike instead of feeling rapped in it like the 250R. I don't know though, you have more experience than i do. I agree that they just can't make the hp numbers like the 250R.

And the 4-strokes are the new wave. They are much more rideable in racing applications, but i still wouldn't give up my 250. hehe.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by fireburns99
You really think the 400EX suspension is anywhere near the 250R? I've ridden a couple and it just felt wierd, almost like i was too high and on top of the bike instead of feeling rapped in it like the 250R.

The 400EX is indeed taller, no doubt, by a couple inches. The FEEL is obviously going to be different, just due to that fact. But the capabilities are comparable, especially when you get into the aftermarket realm. The 400EX has very good handling characteristics (unlike a Raptor or Banshee).

i just love the way a R sits, especially when its widen out and has good set of shocks

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Whats going on is, its just like keeping up with the jones, got to have what the jones have next door.
Not singleing out that name, thats just like I've heard it said.

Think about it like this, your a name brand OEM company & you hand pick a few of the top riders in the nation "GIVE" them all the new model racing atvs they need along with the best knowlage the OEM can supply about making them fast & what do you end up with.

You end up with just about every up & comming rider buying & jumping on the new model rides thinking they can be just like the hand picked OEM supported riders, but, look at the behind the scenes part your not seeing, the OEMs are getting rich.
Rich not just from new unit sales but from parts as well.
Those few hand picked riders they have has created a cash cow for the OEMs untill the newly brain washed rider realizes what is happening.
When you truly get a 4 stroke engine to produce the power like everybody thinks it can produce, it will be short lived.
I'm not just saying this either, the AMA has already realized it as well, they are loosing riders every week in the 125/250 class, going broke trying to keep the 250 4 strokes running.

Dont get me wrong, I like the new model atvs & probably one day thats what we will own, but what gets me about the whole thing is people kicking down the ol tryed & trued 250R bashing them & their owner trying to make the new 4 stroke look good & not seeing the whole pic of things & what happening.

Sadly though, by the time everybody does, it will be too late & everybody wishing they had the 2 stroke back.

Ok, I'm off the soap box, your turn now to bash me in trying to justify the 6000.00 to 8000.00 you spent on that new 4 stroke you bought off the showroom floor.
Neil

[mjmisek]

The OEM companies that give the top riders their quads are the ones who pushed for the Pro Production Class . .. they way I look at it is that if the new 4-strokes really were everything they claim to be, including being faster, handle better and be cheaper to maintain , there would be NO need for this rule. . . the 250Rs would go the way of the dinosaur through attrition. .. the fact that 250Rs and 250R hybrids (the ONLY quads raced in quantity at the Pro level) had to be singled out and removed from competition shows me that even the OEMs know that today's product is not superior.

-just my two cents

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by mjmisek
The OEM companies that give the top riders their quads are the ones who pushed for the Pro Production Class . .. they way I look at it is that if the new 4-strokes really were everything they claim to be, including being faster, handle better and be cheaper to maintain , there would be NO need for this rule. . . the 250Rs would go the way of the dinosaur through attrition. .. the fact that 250Rs and 250R hybrids (the ONLY quads raced in quantity at the Pro level) had to be singled out and removed from competition shows me that even the OEMs know that today's product is not superior.

-just my two cents

I just think it's a round peg shaved, tweaked and given huge compression to fit a square hole. It fits and once you've staked another 200cc's it may even out perform! But the thing is that's not saying much about 4strokes as small engine class race engines once you've done all that to it and spent a huge amount of cash doing it. 2strokes cc per cc are a better small engine race motor. Did you know that some air craft carriers have 2sroke motors? Why, because of better power to weight ratio. This is not a matter of opinion. This is NOT a matter of trendiness. 2strokes and 4strokes have been around for years before any of us were alive and their respective merits are thoroughly studied and well documented. I laugh to myself when I hear the uninformed say that "technology has come a long way". Nothing about this hyper 450 is particularly a new technology. lol I guess unless you're talking about how Ferrari back in the <b>60's</b> made light weight, hyper race motors too? lol

To Neil's point... When you go watch stock car racing, do you really think the Grand-Am or whatever you buy at the dealer is going to perform like the motor you saw running at the track? Marketers think so and a lot of trendy wanna be's seem to too. The difference is, the nascar motor (or Ferrari, or 450) needs to be rebuilt a lot more often than your Grand-Am. It happened with the 250R too. Everyone had to have a 250R and it had to look like the guy on huevos! Hey, mine looks like Bill Balances now! Ok, well I sure do feel better now! Bling, bling! This is the state of the average human brain. All you have to do is watch about an hour's worth of tv to see what simple things programmers can entertain and sell to morons. People are too easy to lead around by the nose. Like sheep, they can be lead to believe and buy almost anything. You don't have to go far into history to see very clear examples. It would be hilarious if sometimes it weren't so painfully tragic.

Here's a good example:
450 motor for sale!! Get it while hot!! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200045109940&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=200031487552&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget)

Some moron is going to pay the asking price for that thing. Look at all the bullsh*t sticking out of it. Can you BELIEVE how much it costs? And how many minutes of 11k RPM's do you think have run through those poor "freshened" valves? Buy it! I dare you! I WANT you to!