Need serious help.. (VIDEO)

[Punk'd]

I think somethings really wrong with my bike. It keeps smokeing really bad, but only seems to do it when im on the throttle. It backfires every now and then as well.

I dont think im lean.. I run a 50 pilot and a 195main with the lid off.

I run a hotcams stage 2.. Do you think this could be a problem with the shims being off.. ect?

Would over filling the oil cause it to smoke?

This is driving me crazy..

HELP! Im open to any ideas

Heres the vid

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[duke416ex]

I would think you might be a little rich, but that's just me. How many hours are on the bike. It might be getting close to new rings time.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by duke416ex
I would think you might be a little rich, but that's just me. How many hours are on the bike. It might be getting close to new rings time.

I have no idea how many hours. I've had it since around July 2004..

Its never done this before. I rode in the pouring rain saturday and all of a sudden it starts doing this. I also put new oil in. I think I over filled it as well.

Could any of that cause this to happen?

It runs perfect, besides a backfire here and there.

[st8jacket]

that looks like overly rich...Along with your 195 main...try backing it down a bit...alot of soot blowing out of that thing....

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by st8jacket
that looks like overly rich...Along with your 195 main...try backing it down a bit...alot of soot blowing out of that thing....

Its been working for the past 6-7 months without smoke?? So how can it just suddenly decide its way to rich?

White smoke is burning oil. Black smoke is a rich condition.

[st8jacket]

tempature change...hotter outside go leaner,colder richer....
you'll know when a 4 stroke is burning oil....
450's will run pig rich,but if it works for you so be it...Oh,and if you overfilled it,why didnt you drain it out????

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by TRX450R_Racer
White smoke is burning oil. Black smoke is a rich condition.

That is wrong. White smoke is anti-freeze or coolant. Blue smoke is oil, Black smoke is too rich. Overfilling can definitely cause that, it is called blow-by. It is forcing oil up past the piston rings. Im not saying that this the case, but a possibility. Also you are waaay too rich, whether thats the cause or not its still too rich.

How much water did you ride in? Did your quad get really muddy? From the vid it looks like white smoke. Does it do it all the time? Take it out for a ride and see if it goes away. It could just be condensation in the exhaust, although it should go away very quickly. Definitely looks white from here though.

[ghott]

What oil did you use in your quad? How long have you been using it?

How long has it been since you've checked your valves?

Have you ridden it enough yet to blow out any water that may have gotten into your exhaust system?

Drain the oil down to the level it is supposed to be and you can cross that off your list.

Are you letting the quad warm up before revving it up like that?

Is your choke on while this is happening?

Have you checked your coolant level?

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
That is wrong. White smoke is anti-freeze or coolant. Blue smoke is oil, Black smoke is too rich. Overfilling can definitely cause that, it is called blow-by. It is forcing oil up past the piston rings. Im not saying that this the case, but a possibility. Also you are waaay too rich, whether thats the cause or not its still too rich.

How much water did you ride in? Did your quad get really muddy? From the vid it looks like white smoke. Does it do it all the time? Take it out for a ride and see if it goes away. It could just be condensation in the exhaust, although it should go away very quickly. Definitely looks white from here though.

A decent amount of water.. Puddles ect.. It was pouring.

Quad got muddy, but not big time muddy at all.

I rode it up the street a few times, did not go away.

Yes, its forsure ghost white.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by ghott
What oil did you use in your quad? How long have you been using it?

How long has it been since you've checked your valves?

Have you ridden it enough yet to blow out any water that may have gotten into your exhaust system?

Drain the oil down to the level it is supposed to be and you can cross that off your list.

Are you letting the quad warm up before revving it up like that?

Is your choke on while this is happening?

Have you checked your coolant level?


Mobel 10w-30 in the motor side and Mobel 10w-40 in tranny.

Havent checked my valves for a while.. Im going to buy a shim kit and make sure everythings in tune.. Could this make it smoke like that?

Yes i've ridden it, but not for very long. I've also let it idle for a long time.

Oil is now at the proper level.

Yes, I let it warm up before I rev it and the choke is not on.

Coolant level remains the same as always.



My guess is water is in something..

And any reccomendations on jetting specs?

Right now its at 195main, 50 pilot, lid off with Uni filter and full sparks pipe

i have about the same setup as you and i had to go from a 190 to a 180 main because of the weather

[Punk'd]

If it was because the oil was overly filled how long will it take to go away because I drained it down to its normal level and it still does it.

PS: I used to run all 10w-40 and I just put the 10w-30 in and it started smokeing. Could this be the problem?

[Yamahauler_04]

You say it's an 04.

Looks tired to me. Do a compression test, and a leakdown test. I bet you need a valve job.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Overfilling can definitely cause that, it is called blow-by. It is forcing oil up past the piston rings. Im not saying that this the case, but a possibility.

How can I fix this? I bet thats the reason.

[GPracer2500]

What's your airbox look like? Any water or oil in there?

I love the video, but it's hard to tell if that's water/coolant or oil. Burning oil is bluish-white but sometimes it looks pretty much white only. Viewing the smoke with just the right lighting and background can push the color from bluish to whitish and visa versa.

ETA: Watched the vid again. I'm guessing oil. Like was mentioned above, do a leakdown test. That will tell you a lot about what's going on.

ETA: If it's from overfilling than that might not go away on it's own. If there's a layer of oxidized oil on the cylinder than the rings may never seal again.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
What's your airbox look like? Any water or oil in there?

I love the video, but it's hard to tell if that's water/coolant or oil. Burning oil is bluish-white but sometimes it looks pretty much white only. Viewing the smoke with just the right lighting and background can push the color from bluish to whitish and visa versa.

ETA: Watched the vid again. I'm guessing oil. Like was mentioned above, do a leakdown test. That will tell you a lot about what's going on.

ETA: If it's from overfilling than that might not go away on it's own. If there's a layer of oxidized oil on the cylinder than the rings may never seal again.


I cant just ride it off? What do you reccomend I do?

[mattonln]

I would say your rings are shot. I have an 05 and lately I've been starting to see a little more smoke each time i warm it up and am almost positive I need new rings.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by Punk'd
I cant just ride it off? What do you reccomend I do?

You can try riding it off but I'm guessing that smoking isn't going away. Assuming our assumptions thus far are correct about what's happening, a rebuild is about the only option.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
You can try riding it off but I'm guessing that smoking isn't going away. Assuming our assumptions thus far are correct about what's happening, a rebuild is about the only option.

S***.. How much is that going to run me.. I have no idea how to do any of that..:ermm:

[ghott]

You can try a rebuild yourself. From what I hear, it isn't too hard...just all about following directions and taking your time. There are no "tricks" to it.

I'm no gearhead, and this month I'm going to put a new piston and cam in my '05 R. I'm just going to follow the directions on www.rockinhorseweb.com. The first time is always a bit scary, but if you do it once...you'll be able to do it again when needed :). And if you get into any trouble, there are all kinds of helpful people here on the forums.

[HAVOK]

Pistons are around $150 and gaskets are $50. And a shim kit will make life a bit more easy they are about $70. You can download 04-05 service book from the .ORG to cut cost.

[911]

have u pulled off the air filter yet to clean it? i over filled my 04 once and thought nothing of it till it started smoking. it was pulling oil into my air filter through the case tube:eek2: i cleaned it and drained the oil & never had another prob. just a thought ;)

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by 911
have u pulled off the air filter yet to clean it? i over filled my 04 once and thought nothing of it till it started smoking. it was pulling oil into my air filter through the case tube:eek2: i cleaned it and drained the oil & never had another prob. just a thought ;)

Have not cleaned the filter yet. I have an outerwear, but Ill go do that now and let you know how it is.

[DPR250R]

A lot of good advice in the other posts of this thread....

If you rule everything out and decide to replace the top end yourself I suggest you read the manual a couple times before diving into it.

It really helps if you know what you are getting into before starting the work.

Four Stroke top ends are a little tricky but you can do it your self.

Just take you time and double check your work.

I would suggest installing an hour meter and use it to develop a service schedule that works for you and your riding conditions. (Oil changes, Valve Adjustments, Top End rebuils... etc..)

[Punk'd]

Alot of great info indeed. I just hope its something simple like cleaning the air filter.. :ermm:

[tltcracing]

it seems to me like it could be leaking piston seals. i think they were on the verge of leaking before and the overfilled oil just accelerated the wear. i have a 05 and race it every weekend and practice during the week so i have a lot of hours on mine and i think im due for a rebuild and if yours is an 04 you may be overdue.

[Punk'd]

UPDATE: I pulled the filter out and found oil stains where the filter meets that hose in the airbox. Do you think this could be the cause?

Cleaning the filter as we speak.

[ghott]

Originally posted by Punk'd
UPDATE: I pulled the filter out and found oil stains where the filter meets that hose in the airbox. Do you think this could be the cause?

Cleaning the filter as we speak.

Quite possibly. Clean the airfilter, put it back in, fire her up and let us know if there is any change.

[911]

the iner cage was wet on mine but my fingers are crossed;) btw i also practiced on my 04 2x a week since 1/04 including winters and raced 2 seasons without needing any moter woork at all. it still fires on 2 kicks and runs strong as ever. so i wouldn't dive into the moter just yet. good luck:macho

[tltcracing]

having oil on the filter would have caused it to mix with the incoming noraml air. this would make it smoke so clean it off and tell us how it runs.

[400exrider707]

Yeah try cleaning it first, and make sure your oil is at the proper height. Also I beleive if you already experienced blow-by, it wont go away until you rebuild it or at least put new rings on. The oil has already forced its way past the rings, and has made a path somewhere to the top of the piston. I dont think this is your case though, luckily it seems that it came up through the tube into your airbox. Clean the filter and try again, you might have got really lucky.

[Punk'd]

I cleaned the filter and it hasnt changed at all. I think im screwed

[3exrider23]

my friends 450r used to be like that. he had a eletric start put on it though n i no he had cams on it but not sure wat else. everytime he tryed starting it it mad the loudest bang. about 2 weeks after the engine blew. it was his shift timer. thank god for his warrenty.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by 3exrider23
...it was his shift timer...

What's a "shift timer"?

Originally posted by GPracer2500
What's a "shift timer"?

what color powerband was he running? :blah:

dude randy, it looks like your burning oil to me, its about time for a new piston and rings

[HAVOK]

What does the smoke smell like? Have you tried new gas you might of got water in the gas tank drain it and fill it up.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by Yurik Norton
what color powerband was he running? :blah:


Oh right....I forgot that some powerbands utilize a shift timer and others don't.... :p

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Oh right....I forgot that some powerbands utilize a shift timer and others don't.... :p

exactly what i was gettin at ;) :p

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by HAVOK
What does the smoke smell like? Have you tried new gas you might of got water in the gas tank drain it and fill it up.

I dont know how water would have got in my gas.. My friend said the exhaust smelled like oil, but im really not sure.

I asked a mechanic and he said it could be a blown head gasket?

Im going to replace that and see if thats the problem.

Anything else it mite be?


I've heard piston rings, blown head gasket so far.

[GPracer2500]

I don't think that's a blown head gasket. But if it is then you'll be loosing coolant so check the coolant level.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
I don't think that's a blown head gasket. But if it is then you'll be loosing coolant so check the coolant level.

How fast would I be losing it?

I can buy a gasket kit for around $49..

Think I should go for it?

[st8jacket]

I would put a compression tester on it to see what it blows....1 step at a time.....Then if its low,get your top end done........Problem solved....

[d3ktrix]

If it was ur head gasket, your oil would be milky white, overfull and you would be low on coolant.
I don't think its that.

I think either you have water in your gas tank or you need a rebuild.

If you get water in your stem from washing you bike, the breather tube from you gas cap can suck the water out of ur stem.
This is why most people cut about a foot off that tube.

Drain the gas out of ur tank, drain the float bowel then try some new gas.

If that doesnt work, time for a compression test =)

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by st8jacket
I would put a compression tester on it to see what it blows....1 step at a time.....Then if its low,get your top end done........Problem solved....

Exactly. Without data beyond what we can witness in the video this is all just guesswork. A compression test should be at the top of your short list and a leak down test would be even better. If you aren't prepared to buy or borrow a leak down tester (check auto parts stores for tool loan programs) than consider paying someone to do it for you.

If you're going to replace the head gasket then you might as well at least put new rings in it. But if your going to open the engine at all, then you might as well replace ALL the parts that are likely tired or you'll just be doing it all over again sooner than needed....

What I'm saying is don't try and "get by" with half-hearted solutions or guesswork. In the end it will just cost you more aggravation and money than if you did it right in the first place. Your engine probably needs a new top-end. A new piston and rings will be needed. There's no way I would do that without also checking the valves and valve seats for wear and making sure the cylinder is still true and free of build-up.

[Punk'd]

Either tomorrow or friday im going to drain the gas to see if thats the problem. My vent hose is very long.. never thought of that.

I've also heard by switching oil from 10w-40 to 10w-30 in the motor side, it acts like water when its really hot out and that may cause it to seep threw to the piston. I dont know if this is true or not, just what I heard.

If worst comes to worst ill get that test done. Ill see if I can find anyone who does it.

Keep the ideas coming and Ill keep everyone posted on the outcome.

Thanks :)

i will say this again, your burning oil because of the rings, get a new piston with rings and your fine, a little piece of dirt could have got by or something, and scratched the cylinder also, check for marks

[Z-135]

I think the 10 in the motor oil is the thickness of the oil when it is cooled and the 30 is the thickness of the oil when it is hot. I would stick with the 10-40 and not the 10-30. I do not feel this is your problem. Sounds like rings!
You should cut that vent hose because water can sit in your stem and chose you problems.

[Punk'd]

Do you think it is possible that the hose could have "sucked" water into the gas tank and thats causeing it to smoke? I will cut it though.

I dont see how the 10w-30 oil could make it smoke, but I will put 40 back in.

If its the rings I mite just buy a new piston.. What do you reccomend?

I've heard good things about the JE 13:1 I believe.

[Z-135]

I would think rings would be fine but it is only another 80 for the piston. I run hare scrambles, I have a stock piston with a stage 1 hot cam, full HMF,no air box lid with an air box outerwear and stock gearing. I tried the 13 front sprocket with the stage one cam but the 14 works much better. If I were going to run MX, I would go with a bigger piston.

[Seano300ex]

you probally need a top end rebuild and you might just have to replace the piston,rings,gaskets,etc... (your bike is an 04)

[Punk'd]

Yeah I think im going to rebuild the top end, but does anyone know a good place to get JE pistons?

[400eXr1d3rZ]

eBay.

DASA

[DieselBoy]

yeah your due for a rebuild:chinese:


run a compression test before you jump the gun.
next, is a leakdown test.

if you don't do those it's like trying to find a needle in a hay stack

[Punk'd]

UPDATE: Putting brand new head gasket in tomorrow.. I hope this fixes everything.

Do you all think it will:confused: :(

[coryatver]

You really probley need a whole new rebuild. If not now soon.

[GPracer2500]

Nope.

[d3ktrix]

Originally posted by Punk'd
UPDATE: Putting brand new head gasket in tomorrow.. I hope this fixes everything.

Do you all think it will:confused: :(

We already told u it wouldn't :P

Your oil would be super milky white if your head gasket was bad.

[Punk'd]

My bike runs fine though.. If something were wrong with the piston rings ect.. Wouldnt it run like crap?

[Shift_450R]

Originally posted by Punk'd
My bike runs fine though.. If something were wrong with the piston rings ect.. Wouldnt it run like crap?
im thinking its your rings. If indeed it is your rings you would loose a very small amount of power but your constantly burning oil. If you continue to ride it with your rings letting oil past, your gonna have problems. If i were you i would do a compression test followed by a leakdown test like someone stated. Rings are relitivly cheap and somewhat easy to replace if you know what your doing. My $.02

[outlaw450r]

Originally posted by Punk'd
My bike runs fine though.. If something were wrong with the piston rings ect.. Wouldnt it run like crap?
It would also run like crap if the headgasket was blown.

[st8jacket]

I geuss it comes down to live and learn.....

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by st8jacket
I geuss it comes down to live and learn.....

:D

[rap169]

well, did you change it? What was the outcome?

[eganracing]

Punk'd, if i was u i would be listening to GPracer2500. im pretty sure he knows what hes talking about.;)

[d3ktrix]

Originally posted by Punk'd
My bike runs fine though.. If something were wrong with the piston rings ect.. Wouldnt it run like crap?

Bad rings will start burning oil before you notice any performace difference.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by rap169
well, did you change it? What was the outcome?

Alot less smoke, the more I ride.

[d3ktrix]

Originally posted by Punk'd
Alot less smoke, the more I ride.

Was there any signs of blow by on the old gasket? Look messed up?

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by d3ktrix
Was there any signs of blow by on the old gasket? Look messed up?

I have no experience to tell. What would it look like?

[d3ktrix]

Originally posted by Punk'd
I have no experience to tell. What would it look like?

Sometimes they look like little streams from one edge of the gasket to the other.
Wet spots where they shouldn't be, puffy spots depending on the type of gasket.
If its real bad then tears/rips/cracks.

Hard to tell if the gasket doesn't come off both sides clean.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by d3ktrix
Sometimes they look like little streams from one edge of the gasket to the other.
Wet spots where they shouldn't be, puffy spots depending on the type of gasket.
If its real bad then tears/rips/cracks.

Hard to tell if the gasket doesn't come off both sides clean.

The cylinder had alot of black stuff stuck to it where the gasket was. It was black and you had to use your nail to scrape it off. Almost like paint.

Ill take a picture of the gasket later

[Punk'd]

Do you think my local honda dealer would have piston rings in stock? Or would it just be better to buy a new piston that comes with everything you need..

If so I do not want to run race gas.

And do you think this is a fairly easy job to do?

[DieselBoy]

It's not a terrible job to do rings, but you'll need a base gasket, a hone job (check the bore, too) Sending your jug away for a hone can take a while if the shop is slow like some are. Just buy a new piston kit with the wristpin, circlips, and rings. Make sure you install the rings by the book, too.

[Punk'd]

New piston and rings are next..

Check this out

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/7940/rsmokeeu0.png


To me that looks white-ish blue

[DieselBoy]

holy sam christ thats alot of smoke!!!!

definately oil!

[DieselBoy]

oh, and i wouldnt ride it in it's current state, your just asking for major problems.

dude its rings, i told you from the beginning, listen to me next time :blah:

[Punk'd]

Can someone help me figure out what piston I want and where to buy it? and that comes with everything ill need for installation correct?

I ride XC, but do not want to run race gas.

[IOWAracer]

Go with a JE 13:1 piston thats what i would do for xc

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by IOWAracer
Go with a JE 13:1 piston thats what i would do for xc

Doesnt that require race gas? I want to still run pump.

And how come I've yet to hear of this happen to anyone else?

[DJJ450r]

Originally posted by IOWAracer
Go with a JE 13:1 piston thats what i would do for xc good job broc, he said he didn't want to run race gas:blah: get a JE 11.5:1 and you should be good;)

[DieselBoy]

before you order your piston you must verify the bore is ok............

if you require boring you must establish the bore size, and order your piston.

[GPracer2500]

Unless something really got screwed up I'm guessing the bore will be fine. 450r's have Nikasil coated cylinders so boring is a more involved process that requires replating. If the cylinder is actually damaged and you're sticking with the stock bore size then buying a brand new cylinder from Honda is probably going to be less expensive. Nikasil is very durable and rather difficult to damage. Regardless, it never hurts to have ANY cylinder inspected and measured by a machine shop to verify the condition--particularly if the cylinder was operated with other out of spec parts...

Assuming the cylinder is not damaged then deglazing will be in order. Deglazing is similar to honing except you're not actually removing any of the original material of the cylinder. You're just "cleaning" the bore; removing any deposites that have accumulated and helping restore the original hone. You can do this yourself with a flap hone, a ball hone (Flex-Hone), or even a Scotchbrite pad. On Nikasiled two stroke cylinders a Scotchbrite pad is prefered by many because there is no risk of flaking the Nikasil away at the edges of the ports (which can happen with flap or ball hone). If you don't want to do this yourself you can take your cylinder to a machine shop to have it deglazed. I don't imagine this would cost more than ~$25.

Nikasil is so hard that actually honing a Nikasiled cylinder requires special diamond honing tools that many machine shops may not be equipt with. That's partly why there is a small sub-industry that specialize in Nikasil cylinder repair. Millennium Technologies (http://www.mt-llc.com/index_home.shtml) is one of the larger such outfits.

[Punk'd]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Unless something really got screwed up I'm guessing the bore will be fine. 450r's have Nikasil coated cylinders so boring is a more involved process that requires replating. If the cylinder is actually damaged and you're sticking with the stock bore size then buying a brand new cylinder from Honda is probably going to be less expensive. Nikasil is very durable and rather difficult to damage. Regardless, it never hurts to have ANY cylinder inspected and measured by a machine shop to verify the condition--particularly if the cylinder was operated with other out of spec parts...

Assuming the cylinder is not damaged then deglazing will be in order. Deglazing is similar to honing except you're not actually removing any of the original material of the cylinder. You're just "cleaning" the bore; removing any deposites that have accumulated and helping restore the original hone. You can do this yourself with a flap hone, a ball hone (Flex-Hone), or even a Scotchbrite pad. On Nikasiled two stroke cylinders a Scotchbrite pad is prefered by many because there is no risk of flaking the Nikasil away at the edges of the ports (which can happen with flap or ball hone). If you don't want to do this yourself you can take your cylinder to a machine shop to have it deglazed. I don't imagine this would cost more than ~$25.

Nikasil is so hard that actually honing a Nikasiled cylinder requires special diamond honing tools that many machine shops may not be equipt with. That's partly why there is a small sub-industry that specialize in Nikasil cylinder repair. Millennium Technologies (http://www.mt-llc.com/index_home.shtml) is one of the larger such outfits.

So deglazing is a must before I purchase a new piston?

Thanks for the info

[st8jacket]

at a minimum...Your better off taking the jug off and taking it to a competant machine shop that deals with our kinda cylinders..They will tell you if it just needs to be de-glazed,or bored and re-plated...Final step after getting the out come from the machinest is ordering your parts...

Bottom line is DO NOT order anything till some one looks at your cylinder