any1 carry a handgun [Archive]

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LTZ400rider

07-05-2006, 07:36 PM

what requirements do u need to carry a handgun and what are the rules.

what about concealed handguns

ITSTOCK

07-05-2006, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by LTZ400rider
what requirements do u need to carry a handgun and what are the rules.

what about concealed handguns

I don't know about Philadelphia specifically (MOST LIKELY MORE STRICT), but in most parts of PA...

Go to your local township municipality. Ask for a CCW form. Fill out form, and return to township. The Lt. or sarge on duty will sign off on it, and right down any infractions. If you have a felony, forget it. They also have the right to deny you for other infractions of the law.

After you get signed off, they will return the paper to you and you need to go to your district/county court (for montgomery county, you go to Norristown). They than review it, contact the names you have written down (references), and either accept or reject your CCW permit.

There are certain states you are allowed to bring the gun while traveling through. I have my CCW permit and have a glock 26, but I don't carry anyway.

If you don't have a permit, your gun and ammo have to be in seperate compartments of the car, gun in trunk, ammo. in glove box, an arrangement like that.

You need to be 21 to purchase a handgun and get the CCW permit. In other words, you have 2 years to worry about buying a handgun, and/or getting a CCW permit.

Pappy

07-05-2006, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by xtremefullbore
to be able to shoot george bush from 20 feet away
:blah:

You might want to expect a visit from the men in black:ermm:

400exrules

07-05-2006, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
You might want to expect a visit from the men in black:ermm:

took the words outta my mouth lol

GPracer2500

07-05-2006, 07:56 PM

You MUST have a CCW license to carry concealed. I believe Vermont is the only state in the Union that allows citizens to carry concealed without a license. Currently there are about 35 states with "shall-issue" licensing policy. Shall-issues basically means you can't be turned down unless you fail to meet the statatory requirements for the license (no felonys, no restraining orders, etc). In a non shall issue state the licensing authority can turn you down for whatever reason they see fit. In some states (Kalifornia!) it's almost impossible to get one unless you know someone or can demonstrate extreme circumstances.

The good news is that in the last 10-15 years our legislators have woken up to the fact that CCW makes people and communities more safe--not less. 15 years ago there were only a handfull of shall-issue states and only a few more that allowed any kind of concealed carry.

Go to Packing.org (http://www.packing.org/) to look up the specifics for your state.

416exmx

07-05-2006, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by xtremefullbore
to be able to shoot george bush from 20 feet away
:blah:

wow, that is something I would NOT joke about. Stuff like that is taken pretty seriously.

400exrules

07-05-2006, 08:00 PM

i saw a thing on the local news awhile back about a guy in town somewhere that runs this business for hand gun owners. he puts these things in your car, so that your gun is hidden and wont get stolen, but its at quick access for when u need it. like.....you could push a hidden button and a spring loaded drawer would shoot out from under the seat with the gun sitting in it. pretty neat

xtremefullbore

07-05-2006, 08:21 PM

wow, that is something I would NOT joke about. Stuff like that is taken pretty seriously.

ya after i posted that i kinda thought twice about it... :ermm:

Plante400

07-05-2006, 09:16 PM

so delete it?

nosliw

07-05-2006, 09:50 PM

or just drive up to vermont where the rules are so loose it's ridiculous

Pappy

07-05-2006, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by nosliw
or just drive up to vermont where the rules are so loose it's ridiculous

what is rediculous about a citizen being able to carry a firearm as our constitution clearly states?

nosliw

07-05-2006, 09:56 PM

compare vermonts rules on CCW's to washington's where i'm from. made me gasp.

didn't say it was bad..... also didn't say it was good, but let's not step into that.

GPracer2500

07-05-2006, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by nosliw
or just drive up to vermont where the rules are so loose it's ridiculous

Yep, crime is has been raging out of control in VT for years. Washington DC on the other hand, which has an outright BAN on handguns, has a glowing record for violent crime.

;)

xtremefullbore

07-05-2006, 09:58 PM

what is rediculous about a citizen being able to carry a firearm as our constitution clearly states?

only to a certain extent, I dont want some lowlife who doesent care about anything carrying a gun around, you piss him off your dead.. anyone whos not retarted can shoot a gun straight but we should definitley make the test to where u must take so long of training courses and self defense classes, pretty soon every crazy person will be carryin guns.. then I wont ever be able to mouth off again...:scary:

Hondadudeehhhh

07-05-2006, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
what is rediculous about a citizen being able to carry a firearm as our constitution clearly states?

well it does say barring arms. But its more directed towards militia. It's tough to interperate but the way i was explained was back when the militia was our main military (unoficially) they were given those rights. I need to pull up some of my old American Government notes. I dont think every citizen should be aloud to carry a weapon. Id rather feel safe then have to worry about carrying a gun everywhere i go.

GPracer2500

07-05-2006, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by xtremefullbore
what is rediculous about a citizen being able to carry a firearm as our constitution clearly states?

only to a certain extent, I dont want some lowlife who doesent care about anything carrying a gun around, you piss him off your dead.. anyone whos not retarted can shoot a gun straight but we should definitley make the test to where u must take so long of training courses and self defense classes, pretty soon every crazy person will be carryin guns.. then I wont ever be able to mouth off again...:scary:

They guy that shoots you becuase you pissed him off doesn't give a chit about gun laws.

GPracer2500

07-05-2006, 10:02 PM

We should probably end this thread right now before it gets out of hand...;)

xtremefullbore

07-05-2006, 10:05 PM

i dont see it out of hand Im just sayin not everyone needs to have a gun, i mean how many times will a guy point a gun at you and you have one in ur back pocket and its legal... :confused: ... GPracer is totally right a guy who is going to carry a gun doesent car about a stupid gun law.. just dont piss off black people and you want get shot, well maybe not. :rolleyes:

Quad18star

07-05-2006, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
You might want to expect a visit from the men in black:ermm:

Imagine how much that would suck .... hours of questioning because of something you said on an internet forum ... an ATV forum at that .

I'd be curious to know exactly how many government officials have ever taken a look at this website . I'm guessing more than once ..... hell they're able to find terrorists and people with child porn all over the web on sites most people don't know exist . Heck I only use the internet to visit about 15 different ATV websites and that's all . :ermm:

Back on topic ... if you lived up in my area , you have to go through testing , background checks and about 6 months worth of paperwork to be able to carry a handgun . My buddy has one since he works for an armoured cash delivery/pickup type job . Hell he even gets to carry a sawed off 12 gauge shotgun into WalMart around Christmas time to pick up the cash !!!!!:cool:

440racer66

07-05-2006, 10:08 PM

yea treating the president is pretty serious i knew a guy that got questions by the seacret service once he said the dont mess

Pappy

07-05-2006, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Hondadudeehhhh
well it does say barring arms. But its more directed towards militia. It's tough to interperate but the way i was explained was back when the militia was our main military (unoficially) they were given those rights. I need to pull up some of my old American Government notes. I dont think every citizen should be aloud to carry a weapon. Id rather feel safe then have to worry about carrying a gun everywhere i go.

You actually feel safe now:p The 2nd amendment and the rest of the constitution were well thought out. As society changed the amenments started. IMO if they treated the 2nd amendment like they do the first there wouldnt be any issue over the right to keep and bear arms.

My gun will do no harm until it is required at my request. that makes me liable for its actions. And yes, I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

The people in this country that already carry firearms illegally out number the ones that carry them legally and that includes the police! You would think we would have dead people on every corner with all those dangerous guns on the loose....

Keep your eye on the" why" not the "what with "and you will see the bigger picture. I would prefer to know I have the ability to defend my life, my families life without worrying about going to jail because i did not have a small piece of paper claiming I have the right to keep myself safe.

GPracer2500

07-05-2006, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by xtremefullbore
...GPracer is totally right a guy who is going to carry a gun doesent car about a stupid gun law...

Just so I'm not misunderstood: That's not what I said. I said it's the guy that SHOOTS you (for unlawful reasons) that dosen't care about gun laws. The guy that carries illegally doesn't care either. But the above misquote makes it sound like anyone who carries a gun (legally or not) doesn't care about the law.

The only reason I suggest this thread not continue is because gun laws are such a contentious issue. It takes extremely cool heads to have a meaningful conversation on the issue. I know many of us do have cool heads, but many others do NOT. 5 pages later, after everyone is pissed off and little progress has been made the thread will get locked.

xtremefullbore

07-05-2006, 10:21 PM

actually we were learning about that in civics about how thats how the secret service finds out who is planning attacks a huge satellite listens to every convo on phone and picks out certian words if they are in the same sentance... such as president and other words that would make it sound detrimental... i doubt they do play around they have to protect the most hated man in U.S.A, every president is the most hated though just because of popularity.

xtremefullbore

07-05-2006, 10:24 PM

then just tell pappy to close the thread, he wont beat the **** outta you, or will he???:confused:

MOFO

07-06-2006, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by xtremefullbore
i dont see it out of hand Im just sayin not everyone needs to have a gun, i mean how many times will a guy point a gun at you and you have one in ur back pocket and its legal... :confused: ... GPracer is totally right a guy who is going to carry a gun doesent car about a stupid gun law.. just dont piss off black people and you want get shot, well maybe not. :rolleyes:

I dont know where you came from, I'm damn close to banning you.

MOFO

07-06-2006, 04:00 AM

BTW, I proudly carry a Glock 23 (.40cal) with my CCW permit. I went downtown (Pittsburgh), filled out a form - 15 minutes later I have my permit.

Giz400ex

07-06-2006, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by 416exmx
wow, that is something I would NOT joke about. Stuff like that is taken pretty seriously. I won't tell anybody:D

Giz400ex

07-06-2006, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by MOFO
BTW, I proudly carry a Glock 23 (.40cal) with my CCW permit. I went downtown (Pittsburgh), filled out a form - 15 minutes later I have my permit. Just 15mins :huh .....................Not meaning anything towards you but thats pretty sad:( You can get a permit faster than your drivers license:eek2:

Pappy

07-06-2006, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by MOFO
BTW, I proudly carry a Glock 23 (.40cal) with my CCW permit. I went downtown (Pittsburgh), filled out a form - 15 minutes later I have my permit.

LOL...WV is an Open carry state, no concealed, no permit needed:devil:

wvspeedfreak

07-06-2006, 05:07 AM

I have my concealed carry permit in WV.you have to take a 3 hour class($50) and then be tested.You then take your certificate to the courthouse and pay them $75 to get your concealed carry permit.
Pappy is right about the open carry in WV.But you better have a permit if you want to conceal one.

Pappy

07-06-2006, 05:14 AM

Not many folks open carry these days and thats a shame. And the CCW laws are a joke, an unloaded weapon in my vehicle is nothing more then a brick if I need it quickly. I might as well have a hammer on the seat.

250R-Dee

07-06-2006, 05:26 AM

I think the gun laws in the US are adequate. Without guidlines setup for law abiding citizens, the only people with guns will be outlaws and law enforcement officers. Wild wild west here we come.

Guns can be owned here in Japan but the rules regarding ownership are strict. I guess this is why people rob stores with razor sharp knives and flammable liquids over here.

I have a Glock40 and a documented Type 94 Japanese military pistol back home in the US.

popo

07-06-2006, 06:23 AM

I'm all for it.

popo

07-06-2006, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by Pappy
Not many folks open carry these days and thats a shame. And the CCW laws are a joke, an unloaded weapon in my vehicle is nothing more then a brick if I need it quickly. I might as well have a hammer on the seat.

Pappy, I've seen your gun collection. Now where in the hell do you expect to hide your dirty harry pistol that has a barrell longer than your leg...especially your middle one :devil:

wvspeedfreak

07-06-2006, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Pappy
Not many folks open carry these days and thats a shame. And the CCW laws are a joke, an unloaded weapon in my vehicle is nothing more then a brick if I need it quickly. I might as well have a hammer on the seat.

In WV with your Concealed Carry permit you can carry a loaded pistol on you anywhere except government buildings and board of education properties.So if you need to carry it in your vehicle just keep it strapped to you for quick access.I have had my permit for 2 years now and haven't once ever carried :ermm:

MOFO

07-06-2006, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Just 15mins :huh .....................Not meaning anything towards you but thats pretty sad:( You can get a permit faster than your drivers license:eek2:

How do you figure???

They still do a full background check and use references if needed. Are bad guys going to register their gun legally? Are the bad guys going to worry about having a CCW permit? I dont think so.

I think its great! All of the law enforcement officers I have talked to agree as well as the people who process the CCW requests. Most, if not all people who go for a CCW are law abiding citizens that just want to protect themselves or their family.

Pappy

07-06-2006, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by popo
Pappy, I've seen your gun collection. Now where in the hell do you expect to hide your dirty harry pistol that has a barrell longer than your leg...especially your middle one :devil:

LOL..I have 3 Model 29's...but they are collector items, never even opened the boxes:eek:

I carry 2 side arms depending on what i am wearing, a 1911 Colt and a glock .40.

I prefer my colt, cocked and locked. Ive only had to show it on few occasions of the years to quell the issue. The only time I needed it and did not have it, a boy pulled a knife on me at a bowling alley. Good thing I know how to disarm a person with a knife. Not so good for him, i think he still has brain issues but he would have been dead if i was carrying that night.

red2004 TRX450R

07-06-2006, 12:23 PM

I got a CCW permit in PA in about 15 minutes. fill out the paper work, write a letter to the sheriff. Then they do a federal NICS check. They took my mug shot. By the way if you never did any thing illegal or say or wright down any thing stupid on your form. They cant turn you down.

like pappy i love and carry my 1911 (Springfield) and my .40 XD (glock copy).

most of the time they stay in the truck unless im out in the woods.

AL Elks

07-06-2006, 12:36 PM

I've had a CCW permit for years. Definately better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I've only had to draw down on someone once and that was on my own property. The guy almost died that night. I gave him 3 warnings. Fortunately he stopped on warning #3.

#1 Pulled the gun out as he was storming towards me in a full rage after beating some female in the street in front of my house at 10:30 at night. Stated: "I wouldn't do that if I were you"

He kept coming!

#2 Raised it up to head level pointing skyward and stated "I said I wouldn't do that if I were you"

He kept coming!

#3 Dropped to a good Weaver stance while shouting "One more step and you die where you fall"

The wife was yelling the entire time at the guy telling him not to continue because I WOULD SHOOT HIM!

He stopped!

By the way he had just gotten out of prison for shooting into an occupied house and hitting someone. He was in for 2 years. He was also violating his parole (spelling???) as he was out after dark. I of course went down and filed a report the next day stating all of this.

Never did find out what happened to him. Hopefully he went back to jail.

Giz400ex

07-06-2006, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by MOFO
How do you figure???

They still do a full background check and use references if needed. Are bad guys going to register their gun legally? Are the bad guys going to worry about having a CCW permit? I dont think so.

I think its great! All of the law enforcement officers I have talked to agree as well as the people who process the CCW requests. Most, if not all people who go for a CCW are law abiding citizens that just want to protect themselves or their family. Well, thats what you said! Went downtown, filled some forms out and 15mins later you had a permit.:confused:

Pappy

07-06-2006, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Well, thats what you said! Went downtown, filled some forms out and 15mins later you had a permit.:confused:

as long as the NICS computer is running, it only takes minutes to get the required background information to clear you for a firearms purchase or CCw permit

MOFO

07-06-2006, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Well, thats what you said! Went downtown, filled some forms out and 15mins later you had a permit.:confused:

...and what is the problem with this again? Not to be rude, but I do not see how this is "sad". :confused:

DieselBoy

07-06-2006, 06:38 PM

just a quick question...why would you want to walk around with a concealed weapon? you can't shoot anybody legally, anyway.

ITSTOCK

07-06-2006, 06:44 PM

canadians :rolleyes:

Just kidding about the canadians thing, in the good ole U S of A we have the right to self defense though, and also, in certian situations, defending others lives. It's a good thing to have, although a situation you never want to find yourself in.

Originally posted by DieselBoy
just a quick question...why would you want to walk around with a concealed weapon? you can't shoot anybody legally, anyway.

MOFO

07-06-2006, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by DieselBoy
just a quick question...why would you want to walk around with a concealed weapon? you can't shoot anybody legally, anyway.

Welcome to the good 'ol USA where you have the right to defend yourself!

Pappy

07-06-2006, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by DieselBoy
just a quick question...why would you want to walk around with a concealed weapon? you can't shoot anybody legally, anyway.

The purpose is to NOT shoot anyone, but merely to have the means to defend yourself.

Giz400ex

07-06-2006, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by MOFO
...and what is the problem with this again? Not to be rude, but I do not see how this is "sad". :confused: Its sad that they will give someone a permit for a "handgun" in 15mins. At least I'll give NY some credit here because at least they draw it out a bit:eek2:

Pappy

07-06-2006, 07:54 PM

NorCalRacer

07-06-2006, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
where in the constitution does it state anything about a waiting period?

Well said. The easier it is for law abiding people to obtain weapons the more criminals will think before trying to screw with somebody. I doubt we would have nearly as much crime if the average american was armed and willing to stick up for him/herself. Here in places like CA, all anti gun laws do is empower the people who have no respect for the law:confused:

ITSTOCK

07-06-2006, 08:20 PM

It only takes a couple of minutes to run your SS number, and check backup id's to make sure you don't fall under any of the offenses. In PA it took me about 10 minutes to buy my handgun, and 3 weeks to get my carrying permit.

It also took the same amount of time to buy my benelli and winchester when I was 18, they run your name/ss/drivers license and make sure everything checks out. What the hell else do you want????

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Its sad that they will give someone a permit for a "handgun" in 15mins. At least I'll give NY some credit here because at least they draw it out a bit:eek2:

knighttime

07-06-2006, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Its sad that they will give someone a permit for a "handgun" in 15mins. At least I'll give NY some credit here because at least they draw it out a bit:eek2:

i dont see what waiting will do???:confused:

why would someone go out and get a permit then commit a crime with this gun???:confused:

are you saying that someone who is gonna commit a robbery would go get his gun permit first, lmfao:confused: , then sit and wait for the permit, then when he gets the permit, he is happy so he can go out and commit a crime he planned, lmfao:confused:

waiting does nothing, i have a permit because i dont feel like getting busted with a gun while going to camp or something like that. i think its a felony to carry a loaded gun w/o a permit unless you are on your own property.

Quad18star

07-06-2006, 08:35 PM

I'm amazed at how quickly you guys can purchase guns .... 15 minutes ?? That's insane . :eek2: What's to say you aren't just buying the gun to go put a few bullets in an exgirlfriend or boss or something ??

Like I said before ... up here there's a whole big process to go through to own a firearm . First You have to go for a firearms course or challenge their test . They test you on how well you can handle a rifle ... make sure you know the laws and how to safely use the firearm .

Then you have to fill out paperwork . They'll run a police background check , have a doctor fillout forms to make sure you're not an alcoholic , depressed or have any psychological issues . Then after that you have to have references . PLUS you have to provide the names of anyone you have dated or have been married to within the last 3-6 years I think it was ( 3 years atleast) . The people in charge of issueing the firearms license will inform these people that you are looking into purchasing a firearm .... if they have any objections or concerns , you may be refused the right to purchase a gun . Once all that is done , you have to wait a few months to get your firearms license ... then you can go purchase a RIFLE or a SHOTGUN .

It's another big process to receive a permit to carry a handgun and a concealled weapon .

NorCalRacer

07-06-2006, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Quad18star
I'm amazed at how quickly you guys can purchase guns .... 15 minutes ?? That's insane . :eek2: What's to say you aren't just buying the gun to go put a few bullets in an exgirlfriend or boss or something ??

Like I said before ... up here there's a whole big process to go through to own a firearm . First You have to go for a firearms course or challenge their test . They test you on how well you can handle a rifle ... make sure you know the laws and how to safely use the firearm .

Then you have to fill out paperwork . They'll run a police background check , have a doctor fillout forms to make sure you're not an alcoholic , depressed or have any psychological issues . Then after that you have to have references . PLUS you have to provide the names of anyone you have dated or have been married to within the last 3-6 years I think it was ( 3 years atleast) . The people in charge of issueing the firearms license will inform these people that you are looking into purchasing a firearm .... if they have any objections or concerns , you may be refused the right to purchase a gun . Once all that is done , you have to wait a few months to get your firearms license ... then you can go purchase a RIFLE or a SHOTGUN .

It's another big process to receive a permit to carry a handgun and a concealled weapon .

Yeah, it's good to be an American:blah:

DieselBoy

07-06-2006, 08:47 PM

ITSTOCK

07-06-2006, 09:05 PM

I think a gun safety course absolutely SHOULD be a requirement here in the USA also. I took a safety course for my hunting license when I was 14 and learned a lot of basic things I wouldn't have directly learned just growing up around guns with my family.

I honestly don't know why we don't have that law.

NorCalRacer

07-06-2006, 09:16 PM

In CA you have to pass a test to get a handgun and it is 14 days waiting period for any gun at all. The people who shouldn't have guns usually don't buy them though, at least not through official channels.

Pappy

07-06-2006, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by ITSTOCK
I think a gun safety course absolutely SHOULD be a requirement here in the USA also. I took a safety course for my hunting license when I was 14 and learned a lot of basic things I wouldn't have directly learned just growing up around guns with my family.

I honestly don't know why we don't have that law.

Id have to agree, seeing the majority of folks in this country are NOT growing up with firearms.

And for you canadian folks....are you truly free up there. Down here the government works for us, although the taxes I pay sure doesnt seem like it:p

Quad18star

07-06-2006, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
Id have to agree, seeing the majority of folks in this country are NOT growing up with firearms.

And for you canadian folks....are you truly free up there. Down here the government works for us, although the taxes I pay sure doesnt seem like it:p

Oh we're free alright .... they just want to make sure you're not just buying a gun to go shoot up an ex-wife's house , a previous employer that might have layed you off or a postal office . We've watched our neighbours to the south do that 1 too many times . ;) Speaking of taxes , our taxes just went down as of July 1st .... WOOHOO !!!!:devil:

DieselBoy

07-06-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Quad18star
Oh we're free alright .... they just want to make sure you're not just buying a gun to go shoot up an ex-wife's house , a previous employer that might have layed you off or a postal office . We've watched our neighbours to the south do that 1 too many times . ;) Speaking of taxes , our taxes just went down as of July 1st .... WOOHOO !!!!:devil:

HECK YEAH, GREG! :devil:

Quad18star

07-06-2006, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by DieselBoy
HECK YEAH, GREG! :devil:

By the way ... you enjoying that 1% reduction in the taxes ??? Hell I don't even see a difference ... as a matter of fact most places haven't even changed the tax on their machines ... they just pocket it that 1% . LOL

Save a big old $50 on a $5000 purchase ..... amazing deal .... and people voted in this Prime Minister mostly because he said he was going to lower the taxes .

Pappy

07-06-2006, 09:48 PM

Maybe the ex wife needed shot:devil:

It is funny getting an outsiders view on the USA, even if it is filtered:cool:

Quad18star

07-06-2006, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
Maybe the ex wife needed shot:devil:

It is funny getting an outsiders view on the USA, even if it is filtered:cool:

Any time you need an outsiders view , just let me know . :D

Here's the proof that I'm not insane , depressed or an alcoholic .... they let me have a firearms license . :devil:

This sucker right here cost me $120 to get ... after writing the test , filling out paperwork and paying doctors fees .

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a151/Quad18star/IMG_0141.jpg

Pappy

07-06-2006, 10:19 PM

I think I seen that guy on americas most wanted:devil:

Quad18star

07-06-2006, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
I think I seen that guy on americas most wanted:devil:

Shhhhh !!!!!! They don't know where I'm hiding at just yet .

Funny thing is , my girlfriend told me not to use that picture .... she said I looked like a murderer . I had to submit a picture with the application and this was the only one that was the correct size .

Somebody , somewhere , must have been doing some questioning about my application. :p

Iliketogofast

07-07-2006, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Yep, crime is has been raging out of control in VT for years. Washington DC on the other hand, which has an outright BAN on handguns, has a glowing record for violent crime.

;)

Although it is good that they have minimal gun crimes, it is also at the expense of your rights.

Vindex Injuriae

07-07-2006, 02:36 AM

Look at this website if you want accurate info on the CCW laws for your state.

http://www.packing.org/

As for my 2C - Don't carry a gun if you don't like them, its a choice and a right we are afforded. I don't leave home without one - you won't know I've got it unless I need it. You might even be glad to see it at that point :devil:

MOFO

07-07-2006, 03:53 AM

Originally posted by Vindex Injuriae

As for my 2C - Don't carry a gun if you don't like them, its a choice and a right we are afforded. I don't leave home without one - you won't know I've got it unless I need it. You might even be glad to see it at that point :devil:

Yep.

The way I see it. I'd much rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it!

MOFO

07-07-2006, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Its sad that they will give someone a permit for a "handgun" in 15mins. At least I'll give NY some credit here because at least they draw it out a bit:eek2:

...as everyone has pointed out already, what does this delay do???

Again, are the bad guys worried about having the proper documents to carry a gun???

BTW, just to put salt on the wound, when I got my Glock, it took about 10 minutes to buy it! This included the background check! This was before I got my CCW permit too! :devil:

Giz400ex

07-07-2006, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Pappy
where in the constitution does it state anything about a waiting period? Well, it should!!!!! 15mins is a too short of a time to give anybody a weapon, you have a fight with your girlfriend or wife ect..... at 8:00am, 8:15am she's dead because you shot her. Obviously there wasn't a cooling time period for that not to happen. I guess all your looking at is you (yourself), when its available like that to anyone that has a great backgound ect... thats suddenly gonna go sour:( I don't care what anybody says, NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO RECIEVE HANDGUN PERMIT IN 15MINS, thats crazy!:huh

Giz400ex

07-07-2006, 05:28 AM

MOFO

07-07-2006, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Well, it should!!!!! 15mins is a too short of a time to give anybody a weapon, you have a fight with your girlfriend or wife ect..... at 8:00am, 8:15am she's dead because you shot her. Obviously there wasn't a cooling time period for that not to happen. I guess all your looking at is you (yourself), when its available like that to anyone that has a great backgound ect... thats suddenly gonna go sour:( I don't care what anybody says, NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO RECIEVE HANDGUN PERMIT IN 15MINS, thats crazy!:huh

Again, your avoiding the question. If someone were to snap, do you think they care if the gun is legally registered or if they have the proper carry permit?

MOFO

07-07-2006, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Thats the way it should be here in the states, that kind of process..........yes:D

So when they say you can't have a gun and your a criminal, do you really think that type of process will keep a gun out of their hands?

<DRS>GPF

07-07-2006, 06:13 AM

hmm... im not sure how i feel about anyone that just hasnt been caught for anything seriously illegal, being able to buy a gun and carry it let alone drive around with it..

too many fools in this world..

perhaps im misunderstanding..

once a CCW permit is issued, is there a renewal date?
like when im 18, go run and get one and im good for life unless i do something extreme.. a state offense perhaps..

law abiding citizens with little common sense can do this and thats a problem..

how many people that youve met in your life, do you actually feel comfortable with them even owning a gun??(let alone packing one around in their car.. )
remember that kid in school that got picked on and pretty much held down by a few bully's while everyone seemed to ignore it?.. well he can get a gun because he didnt break laws yet..

btw.. just because the US media airs the dirty laundry to the world, dont think that there arent dark things going on in your country..
Vancouver area was terrorized a few years back by a serial killer thats still not caught.. it happens all the time, you just dont have a loose media to show you and everone else..

by population vs percentage of actually reported crime, few countries have anything to brag about.. let alone unreported crimes where little law enforcement is available..

Pappy

07-07-2006, 06:31 AM

yes, the permit must be renewed

why does everyone associate buying a gun with killing someone....oh yeah...thanks liberal media.

<DRS>GPF

07-07-2006, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Pappy
yes, the permit must be renewed
that makes me feel a little better.. i hope thats true of all states..

Originally posted by Pappy why does everyone associate buying a gun with killing someone....oh yeah...thanks liberal media.
not so much buying one, just the insatiable desire to carry it around..

i own 3 (rifle for target, shotgun for skeet and pistol for unwanted guests) but i have no desire to carry.. mine and my wifes families and the general community i live in are probably 90% NRA fanatics/members.. gun clubs/chapters galore..
even though, i dont want to think that most of the community i live in might be carrying.. especially the younger, more prone to explode ones..

Pappy

07-07-2006, 06:54 AM

I think alot of this depends on where you live. I have lived in the washington/baltimore metro area all my life, carried every day.

Since moving to west virginia, I rarely carry. Ofcourse there isnt a car load of thugs next to me at each light, or when i walk through a parking lot I do not see 3 homeboys watching me from every street corner.

A few years back a buddy of mine (CCW Holder and was armed) was stepping out of his car when a kid (black, maybe 14) was on him faster then you could imagine. A small revolver pointed at my friend asking for his wallet. Rich slowly reached for his wallet, knowing his S&W was just as easily removed instead of the wallet.

He handed the kid his wallet and the boy fled. Not every situation or person carrying a firearm will use it. Not every person who buys a gun is a nut, and not every gun owner has a violent tendancy. A gun is a tool, just like a hammer or skill saw. The man using it should be responsible not the tool he uses.

red2004 TRX450R

07-07-2006, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Well, it should!!!!! 15mins is a too short of a time to give anybody a weapon, you have a fight with your girlfriend or wife ect..... at 8:00am, 8:15am she's dead because you shot her. Obviously there wasn't a cooling time period for that not to happen. I guess all your looking at is you (yourself), when its available like that to anyone that has a great backgound ect... thats suddenly gonna go sour:( I don't care what anybody says, NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO RECIEVE HANDGUN PERMIT IN 15MINS, thats crazy!:huh

look at it this way - he is a mad man if he wants to shoot someone! and he owns a gun! She goes to the cops to get a PFA. He is a mad man so and a PFA will not work, so she can 't get a gun for self defence for 2 months and now she is dead or serenely injured from him! makes sence to me!

Pappy

07-07-2006, 09:39 AM

Has there been any documented cases where ANYONE bought a handgun and went and killed someone after going through the NICS check within 15 minutes of the purchase? I didnt think so.

Damn this country is full of sissys. By your logic, none of us should be here because guns and men with them should have killed everyone who made them mad. I think baseball bats and butcher knives should be next, they kill as many in this country as firearms ever dared to!

wvspeedfreak

07-07-2006, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Pappy
A gun is a tool, just like a hammer or skill saw. The man using it should be responsible not the tool he uses.

That is the bottom line.Very well said!

Quad18star

07-07-2006, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF

btw.. just because the US media airs the dirty laundry to the world, dont think that there arent dark things going on in your country..
Vancouver area was terrorized a few years back by a serial killer thats still not caught.. it happens all the time, you just dont have a loose media to show you and everone else..

by population vs percentage of actually reported crime, few countries have anything to brag about.. let alone unreported crimes where little law enforcement is available..

They caught the serial killer back in February 2002 ..... his name is Robert Pickton.... he's classified as the Pig Farmer-Serial Killer . He killed between 6 and 54 prostitues and so far has been charged with atleast 15 murders and it's still rising . He'd kill them , throw them in a wood chipper and mix them up in the pigs feed . He's a sick man !!!!

I know we aren't all saints up here in Canada and crime does happen .... so out of curiousity I decided to look up a few statistics about crime rates . Here's one that I was able to find . Take the time to read it .... there's some interesting statistics .

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Statistics
In 2002, there were roughly 2.4 million crimes reported, of which 52% were property related crimes and 13% were violent crimes. This was the lowest crime rate in twenty-five years with 7,590 reported incidents per 100,000 people.

However, the number of reported crimes are only a fraction of the total number of crimes committed in the country. It has been estimated that only 52% of car thefts, 47% of robberies, 46% of vandalism, 32% of general assaults, and 10% of sexual assaults are reported.

The province with the lowest crime rate is Newfoundland. The other Atlantic provinces are close behind. The province with the highest crime rates is Saskatchewan and Regina is the city with the highest violent crime rate of major cities. The three northern territories have higher crime rates per capita than any province.

[edit]
Comparisons
[edit]
United States
Compared to the United States Canada has far lower rates of violent crime such as murder, assault, and rape. Through the 1990s, the homicide rate in the United States was three times higher than it was in Canada, while the American rate for aggravated assault was double the Canadian rate. The rate for robberies was 65% higher in the United States.

Rates of property crime are more comparable with higher rates of motor vehicle and bicycle theft in Canada and similar rates of shoplifting. Canada also has a higher rate of arson. Some of this may be connected to Canadians being more likely to report property crimes to police than Americans. A 1995 survey by the International Crime Victim Survey found the gap between the countries shrank when the population was directly surveyed about their experiences.

The United States has about triple the per capita number of arrests for drug related crimes. Actual rates of drug use are quite similar however, but in the United States far more law enforcement resources are dedicated to the War on Drugs.

[edit]
Other countries
Canada's crime rate is close to the average of Western Europe. Canada has slightly more crime per capita than Japan.

[edit]
Guns
One of the most common explanations of the higher violent crime rate in the United States are guns. Gun crimes are far more common in the United States. Only one third of Canadian murders involve firearms compared to two thirds in the States. Guns are far more likely to be used in robberies in the United States. Gun ownership rates are much higher in the United States, especially handguns. Most Canadian weapons are rifles or shot guns owned by farmers and target shooters, and are less likely to be used in crimes. More assault weapons are banned in Canada than the United States. Canada also has a national gun registry. Even before the creation of the national gun registry, the two biggest provinces, Ontario and Quebec had a long history of strict gun controls.

Canada has more guns and fewer controls on them than Western Europe or Japan.

[edit]
Police
Canada has 182 police officers per 100,000 people. That is a substantially lower rate than most developed countries with only Japan and Sweden having so few police officers. The United States has 243 per 100,000 and Germany 290. Canada's national police force is the RCMP which is the main police force in Canada's north and rural areas outside of Quebec, Ontario, and Newfoundland. Those three provinces have their own provincial police forces. Major cities also have their own police forces.

Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island have the fewest police per capita with 1.4 officers per 1000 people in Newfoundland and 1.5 in PEI. The other eight provinces fall between 1.7 and 2.0 per thousand with Ontario having the most at 2.0.

[edit]
Punishment
There is controversy among criminologists over whether American harsh sentences are a cause or a reflection of higher crime rates. American sentences have been higher throughout the twentieth century, even during periods when the two country's crime rates were comparable.

Canada has comparatively low sentences for many crimes and most convicts receive parole after serving one third of their sentence. Canada also has not had the death penalty since the 1970s. Sentences, especially for drug related crimes are vastly lower than sentences in the United States. There is nowhere in Canada a law such as California's three strikes policy. Canadian criminals are more likely to be given alternative sentences than jail times and more money is put into rehabilitation. Canada thus has a far lower percentage of its population in jail than the United States.

In 2001, Canada had about 32,000 people in prison or about 0.13% of the population. In the United States about 0.7% of the population is incarcerated and the European average is 0.2% with France and Germany having lower rates than Canada, but the United Kingdom, Spain and most of Eastern Europe having higher ones.

[edit]
Racial factors
In the United States, Blacks and Hispanics are incarcerated at a higher rate than Whites. Canadian Blacks have suffered less persecution and the lack of slavery in Canada attracted many Blacks to flee there. Canadian Blacks have not undergone the Ghetto experience as have Blacks in the United States. The Black and Hispanic Ghettos of the United States have high numbers of individuals who live in poverty. Canadian Blacks have faced far less discrimination than they have in the United States and are generally better off economically.

The comparison of the crime rate in Windsor Canada and Detroit, Michigan helps to illustrate the influence of poverty and race on crime. Even though Windsor, Canada and Detroit, Michigan are neighbors on the US/Canadian border, Detriot has a very high crime rate whereas Windsor, Canada has low rates of crime. The city of Detroit has a large number of poor Black-Americans whereas the inhabitants of Windsor,Canada are mostly of European-White middle to upper middle class.

Canada has a small number of Hispanics and a lack of a common border between Canada and Mexico has prevented Mexican criminal organizations and drug cartels from effectively penetrating Canada. Mexican criminal organizations are estimated to be responsible for the importation of 60-70% of methamphetamine into the United States. The US/Mexico border is a major conduit for drug trafficking and human smuggling into the United States.

[edit]
Better Treatment of the Poor
Canada's system has a better safety net which has decreased the polarization between the wealthy and the poor. Further examples of this can be seen in Norway, Sweden and Finland. These three Scandinavian countries have the lowest crime rates in the world and also have the most comprehensive social welfare programs in the world.

[edit]
Immigration and crime
In 2005, Gwyn Morgan raised the issue of linking refugees with crime in Canada, saying among other things that "It's fair to say that most immigrants who abuse our society have come in as refugee claimants rather than 'economic immigrants'." His opinions on this topic were rejected by, most notably, some NDP and Liberal MPs (Maclean's, 2006).

The federal Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada department ran a program from 1999 to 2003 called Project Early Intervention that targeted children in a community "made up of recent Arabic and Somalian immigrants" with the goal of reducing crime.

In 2004, Canada established a national action plan, aimed in part at reducing violence, called A Canada Fit for Children which said "children of recent immigrants and refugee children are more likely to experience economic disadvantage with its associated risks."

Terrorist attacks in Canada have been commited by both foreign-born (typically naturalized citizens) and Canadian-born people. The key suspects (Reyat, Malik, Bagri) in Canada's most deadly terrorist attack, Air India Flight 182, are all foreign-born. Half of the 12 identified alleged terrorists in the 2006 Toronto terrorism case are foreign-born and the other half are Canadian-born.

gibson400ex

07-07-2006, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Yep, crime is has been raging out of control in VT for years. Washington DC on the other hand, which has an outright BAN on handguns, has a glowing record for violent crime.

;)

vermont isnt as bad as your making it sound

its alot more laid back

ITSTOCK

07-07-2006, 10:25 AM

Maybe it's just "double" sarcasm, or you didn't catch his inital sarcasm???

DC banned guns and they have they highest murder rate is what he was getting at.

Originally posted by gibson400ex
vermont isnt as bad as your making it sound

its alot more laid back

Quad18star

07-07-2006, 10:28 AM

Another little bit of reading .... the graphs didn't turn out the way I wish they would have , but I'm sure you guys can figure them out . Interesting information .

Canada has always had stronger firearms regulation than the United States, particularly with respect to handguns. In Canada, handguns have been licensed and registered since the 1930’s, ownership of guns has never been regarded as a right and several court rulings have reaffirmed the right of the government to protect citizens from guns. Handgun ownership has been restricted to police, members of gun clubs or collectors. Very few (about 50 in the country) have been given permits to carry handguns for "self-protection." This is only possible if an applicant can prove that their life is in danger and the police cannot protect them.

As a result, Canada has roughly 1 million handguns while the United States has more than 76 million. While there are other factors affecting murder, suicide and unintentional injury rates, a comparison of data in Canada and the United States suggests that access to handguns may play a role. While the murder rate without guns in the US is roughly equivalent (1.8 times) to that of Canada, the murder rate with handguns is 14.5 times the Canadian rate. The costs of firearms death and injury in the two countries have been compared and estimated to be $495 (US) per resident in the United States compared to $195 per resident in Canada.

Year
Canada
US
US/CAN

Population
1998
30.2 m
270 m
8.9x

Number of All Firearms
1998
7.4 m
222 m
30x

Number of Handguns
1998
1.2 m (restricted firearms)
76 m
63.3x

Guns per capita
1997
.25
.82
3.3x

Firearms Death (Rate per 100,000)*
Canada
US
US/Can

Accidental deaths with Firearms
1998
0.2
0.3
1.5x

Suicides with Firearms
1998
3.4
6.4
1.9x

Total Firearms Deaths
1998
4.3
11.4
2.7x

Crime Statistics (Rate per 100,000) Canada
US
US/Can

Murders with Firearms 1998 0.5
4.4
7.9x

Murders with Handguns 1998 0.23
3.3
14.5x

Murders without Guns 1998 1.3
2.3
1.8x

Robberies with Guns 1998 18
63
3.5x

Roberries without Guns
1998
78
102
1.3x

Canada
US
Can/US

Overall Homicide rate per 100,000
1998
1.83
6.62
3.6x

% of homicides with firearms
1998
27.3%
66%
2.4x

% of firearm homicides with handguns
1998
46%
75%
1.6x

Statistics compiled from Centre for Justice Statistics; FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Data, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada Homicide Survey; Research and Statistics Division Department of Justice (Kwing Hung) June 2001

Pappy

07-07-2006, 10:49 AM

now if they could get the statistics to show how many crimnals killed other criminals, drug dealers killing drug dealers etc, then maybe we could actually see some information.

they label a 17 year old crack monkey who gets killed trying to rob another 17 year old crack monster as a juvinile. kind of skews the reality of things wouldnt you say?

<DRS>GPF

07-07-2006, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Quad18star
Another little bit of reading .... the graphs didn't turn out the way I wish they would have , but I'm sure you guys can figure them out . Interesting information .

well done.. not exactly what i expected.. (thinking the percentages would be closer)

Quad18star

07-07-2006, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
now if they could get the statistics to show how many crimnals killed other criminals, drug dealers killing drug dealers etc, then maybe we could actually see some information.

they label a 17 year old crack monkey who gets killed trying to rob another 17 year old crack monster as a juvinile. kind of skews the reality of things wouldnt you say?

I'm sure statistics for these kinds of things are out there , I just haven't come across them .

I can tell you this much right now though ..... the rate of deaths caused by gang activities in Canada will skyrocket the next time they put together their statistics . Over the last year , Toronto has experienced a HUGE jump in gun related murders , mostly gang members . So far this year I think they're up to 60 or so murders that are gang related . It might not seem like much , but Toronto is known as a safe city , where only a few years ago gang related murders was probably only 4 or 5 in a year .

Big turf wars going on in Toronto right now ... stay away from North Etobicoke especially !!!!

Pappy

07-07-2006, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Quad18star
I'm sure statistics for these kinds of things are out there , I just haven't come across them .

I can tell you this much right now though ..... the rate of deaths caused by gang activities in Canada will skyrocket the next time they put together their statistics . Over the last year , Toronto has experienced a HUGE jump in gun related murders , mostly gang members . So far this year I think they're up to 60 or so murders that are gang related . It might not seem like much , but Toronto is known as a safe city , where only a few years ago gang related murders was probably only 4 or 5 in a year .

Big turf wars going on in Toronto right now ... stay away from North Etobicoke especially !!!!

doesn't that kind of contradict everything relating to a safe Canada and its superior firearm laws;)

Quad18star

07-07-2006, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
doesn't that kind of contradict everything relating to a safe Canada and its superior firearm laws;)

It does make it seem that way... but within the last 2 months or so the Governments ( Federal , Provincial and Municipal) have brought in new laws and task forces to deal with this issue . I haven't heard of any recent murders since these new policies have been placed .

The main reason for such a large amount of murders in a short period of time is because of the turf war . New territory became available and the gang bangers jumped on it quicker than the police did . I don't want to sound racist , but the majority of the murders were commited by Jamaicans ..... and in recent years Jamaicans have migrated their way into the Greater Toronto area by the thousands . This is not to say none of these crimes have been commited by white Canadians , because some of them have ... but the majority has been Jamaicans .

The second reason I believe there was such a large number of murders in a short period of time , is because the police forces were taken by surprise . They did not have enough manpower to deal with it . This has been stepped up in the last few months and more police officers ahve been hired on ( a couple hundred I believe) .

For the most part , most of Canada is safe to live in . I live in a community of about 165 000 people , and the last gun related murder that I can think of came in the early 90s .

Like the stats mentioned, most Canadians that do have guns , are for hunting purposes and hardly anyone carries a handgun .

Besides my buddy that carries a handgun for work related purposes ( he does pickup and drop off of money for a security company) , I don't know anyone that carries or owns a handgun . How many people do you know that carry concealed weapons ?? I'm guessing quite a few !!!!:p

Well I'm out for the weekend , heading up to my parents cottage to do some fishing and quadding WOOHOO !!!! Don't let this thread get too long or out of hand .... I'll be back on Monday to discuss it further . :devil:

Pappy

07-07-2006, 12:56 PM

Welcome to our world Greg, our policies, laws and freedoms are now shaped by outsiders that have called our country home. The sad part is that the honest hard working law abiding american suffers and loses thier rights thanks to the scum at the bottom of society.

Thanks to thugs, drug dealers, nut cases and wackos, a decent person must be checked 9 ways from sunday to obtain a product to protect him from those that fail to acknowldge anything besides thier own brand of law.

The crying shame is those that reply we should be stricter. i agree, how about we enforce the MANY laws on the books that are in place to prevent and deter criminals instead of taking away yet another right and freedom for which this country was founded.

Ive said it before, i even said it to 3 FBI agents and 2 ATF agents, you get the word to take our guns, do not be the first one through my door.

GPracer2500

07-07-2006, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Although it is good that they have minimal gun crimes, it is also at the expense of your rights.

Originally posted by gibson400ex
vermont isnt as bad as your making it sound

its alot more laid back

I was being sacastic about VT and D.C. D.C. has the most resrictive gun laws in the country and they also have the worst crime.

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Well, it should!!!!! 15mins is a too short of a time to give anybody a weapon, you have a fight with your girlfriend or wife ect..... at 8:00am, 8:15am she's dead because you shot her. Obviously there wasn't a cooling time period for that not to happen. I guess all your looking at is you (yourself), when its available like that to anyone that has a great backgound ect... thats suddenly gonna go sour:( I don't care what anybody says, NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO RECIEVE HANDGUN PERMIT IN 15MINS, thats crazy!:huh

A classicly specious argument. :ermm:

It's interesting how all the naysayers are from places with restrictive gun laws and liberal politics. New York state--give me a break. Only CA rivals NY as a bastion of liberalism. Illinois? (my home state, BTW) IL is one of two states in the US with no form of legal CCW whatsoever and Chicago (which unfortunatey dominates the political environment in IL) has extremely restrictive gun laws. Canada? Canada is one step away from the socialist model so prevelent in many European countries--big government, big spending of public funds, lower per capita GDP than its rivals, and lots of regulation.

I've tried to stay out of this thread--really I have--but I just can't help myself. :mad:

Giz400ex

07-08-2006, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by MOFO
Again, your avoiding the question. If someone were to snap, do you think they care if the gun is legally registered or if they have the proper carry permit? Well, if it only takes 15mins to get a gun, sure!!!. It would be the fastest way to go versus trying to find someone thats selling guns on the street ect... I would sign or say anything to get a gun if it only took 15mins.

Giz400ex

07-08-2006, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by MOFO
So when they say you can't have a gun and your a criminal, do you really think that type of process will keep a gun out of their hands? Maybe, depending on whats available on the street but if they say "no" to you and can't get a gun, I guess your options are 1- screw it never mind, or 2- get a baseball bat and start swinging. Neither of those options include a gun because you couldn't get on either on the street or legally!!

Pappy

07-08-2006, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
Maybe, depending on whats available on the street but if they say "no" to you and can't get a gun, I guess your options are 1- screw it never mind, or 2- get a baseball bat and start swinging. Neither of those options include a gun because you couldn't get on either on the street or legally!!

umm, if someone is out to do harm to another, it doesnt take a gun to get the job done you simply get a different "Tool" for the job.

By your logic, as long as a gun is not used, it is ok.

ak_stick

07-08-2006, 10:44 AM

Gotta love Alasaka,

No Waiting periods, no stupid rules about what kind of guns you can and cant own, other than the already laid down federal restrictions. Carry Concealed at 21, no permit required.

The funny part is everyone seems to think that more laws will help, but if you look, the citys, states, and nations with the most oppressive gun control laws are the worst off.

England banned hand guns, and most other guns, and weapons including knives, and look what happened, crime skyrocketed. So did many other nations on that side of the pond, Amsterdam, Belgium, France, all have bad crime now, worse than it ever was before the massive gun control schemes came out. Same for Austrailia, they've been bent over by thier goverment, and now look, crime and murder have skyrocketed.

NY, Washington, Cali, Detroilet, Chicago, all have bad gun control laws, and have issues with crime and violent crimes that have only risen since gun control laws have gotten worse in the past few years.

Gun Control is just a scheme for people who dont feel safe with guns around, to ban the legal ownership of guns. All it does is make it harder for law abiding citizens to get legal weapons, criminals still get what they want.

Real gun control is learning to hit your target. First time, Everytime.

400exrules

07-08-2006, 10:47 AM

i saw a bumper sticker on a truck the other day that said "gun control means using two hands" lmfao!

popo

07-08-2006, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by ak_stick
Gotta love Alasaka,

No Waiting periods, no stupid rules about what kind of guns you can and cant own, other than the already laid down federal restrictions. Carry Concealed at 21, no permit required.

But in Alasaka, you got big furry things that will eat you. Especially that big udonmabile smownan. :devil:

ak_stick

07-08-2006, 11:04 AM

I am about 100X more worried about the two legged animals than the four legged ones. However, my pistol will drop just about anything in North America, so whatever the prey, I'm game.

Giz400ex

07-08-2006, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
umm, if someone is out to do harm to another, it doesnt take a gun to get the job done you simply get a different "Tool" for the job.

By your logic, as long as a gun is not used, it is ok. ummm, Look again at the name of this thread, thats what we're talking about here. Just about anything can be used for anything to hurt someone but for discussion on this thread, its about handguns. You can be a criminal with a clean background, and with the availability of getting a handgun in 15mins DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!!!

You shouldn't be afraid to open your minds a little to common sense. If you want a gun fine....apply through a process, a more complicated process.

ak_stick

07-08-2006, 01:19 PM

Why does it not make sense? If you've got no background, then why should it take anything more than money to walk out with your gun?

Criminals will always get weapons because they dont care if what they're doing is breaking the law, the only thing these retarded gun control laws do is make it harder for regular law abiding people to get guns. Or carry to protect themselves.

GPracer2500

07-08-2006, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
ummm, Look again at the name of this thread, thats what we're talking about here. Just about anything can be used for anything to hurt someone but for discussion on this thread, its about handguns. You can be a criminal with a clean background, and with the availability of getting a handgun in 15mins DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!!!

You shouldn't be afraid to open your minds a little to common sense. If you want a gun fine....apply through a process, a more complicated process.

"A right delayed is a right denied."--Martin Luther King Jr.

You my friend are the one who needs to not be afraid to open their mind. "Common sense" in reference to gun law is nothing more than tag line for specious gun control policy. You may not want to own a gun or legally obtain a gun at the time of your choosing--there's nothing wrong with that. But it IS wrong to impose that view upon other law abiding citizens. If legislation was the answer for saving us from crime then cities with strict gun control would stand head and shoulders above others in crime rates. But they don't.

As CCW restrictions across the country have been lifted (as well as a host of other ill concieved gun control laws) gun crime hasn't been going up--it's been going DOWN. And it's not just gun crime. All sorts of crime has been declining.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalno.gif
[source: US Dept. of Justice]

http://www.wmsa.net/rtc.gif

That map only goes up to 2004. Even more states now allow CCW.

The Democrats got their *** handed to them at the polling booth in the early 90's over their baseless "feel-good" gun contol policies. They have yet to completely recover even though they've taken a huge step back from their previous positions.

Just because something seems to be logical and make sense on the surface does not mean that it provides the intended benefit.

MOFO

07-08-2006, 02:57 PM

I dont care what anyone says... you can't prove those numbers wrong listed above. Its pretty cut and dry. Let your citizens carry and the criminals will think twice before they commit a crime, especially with a gun.

MOFO

07-08-2006, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Giz400ex

You shouldn't be afraid to open your minds a little to common sense. If you want a gun fine....apply through a process, a more complicated process.

I think YOUR the one that needs to open your mind a bit. As I pointed out before, if you deny somone a gun and they want one, especially for criminal reasons - they will get one.

Also I dont think you answered Pappy's question. Show us proof, ONE case where someone applied to purchase a gun, THEN applied for a CCW permit, then went out right away and killed someone for no reason - after they passed BOTH permits! You base your entire case on something that probably has NOT ever happened.

Show us stat's proving that increasing the waiting period saves lives! Note I said "waiting period" - not a background check or application to bear arms.

stoled_400_:(

07-08-2006, 05:24 PM

rebelbanshee

07-08-2006, 10:25 PM

I havnt seen anyone mention the most important reason the constitution forbade the infrigement of gun rights. To defend against a tyranical government. Think about it, if the government controlled guns 230 years ago we would be drinking tea in the afternoon still.

If someone wants someone dead they are going to do it. Think about it you are steaming mad at someone do you think...I know ill drive down to the gunstore, buy a gun, come back and shoot this person, no one will ever figure it out! Id bet they would grab a kitchen knife and have at it. A waiting period is sensless.

I just got my carry permit 3 weeks ago and have had my Glock30 with me everyday since. (its next to me right now actually) Ill probably never use it to deffend myself (Lord willing) but you ever hear about random home invasions, church shootings, muggings can happen even in nice neighbor hoods. I think it is absoluetly irresponsible to not know how and have the ability to deffend yourself and your family. My dad keeps all of his guns lock up for some reason. I think its stupidity. Do you wear your seat belt, do you have insurance, do you look at the paper after you wipe? So why not be able to deffend yourslef just incase.

The 2nd ammendment says the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed. there is no room for interpretation here. This is one of the 10 things that the founding fathers thought were God given rights that government shouldnt take from the citizens.

Just think If everyone had a gun on them, a bad guy would have to be REAL stupid to try anything.

swampfoxsc

07-09-2006, 02:32 PM

A disarmed citizenry + an armed government = tyranny.

The Second Ammendment is not about hunting or sport shooting. It's about the people of this country being able to own the arms necessary to prevent a tyrannical government. History has PROVEN that in order to enslave and/or commit genocide, a government MUST disarm it's citizens.

Crime statistics are not proof that guns are responsible for crime anymore than flies are responsible for garbage. Switzerland has the lowest number of gun related crimes per capita than any other country yet every able-bodied adult male has a government issued military machinegun with ammo in his home. England on the other hand has all but abolished gun ownership and they also have an extremely low number of guns related deaths. Those are two extremes with the same results. It's not the guns, it's the myriad of other factors that lead to gun crime.

For the record, in the last decade, more people have been hacked to death with machetes in Africa than killed with guns in the U.S.! It happened because the people were disarmed by the UN first in the name of, "Peace"!

:mad:

Giz400ex

07-09-2006, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by MOFO
You base your entire case on something that probably has NOT ever happened.

You can't prove that it hasn't:rolleyes: Also, I know with everybody on here that has a permit or a hangun ect.... doesn't like that fact here that I'm complaining about getting a handgun in 15mins, obviously your gonna be totally against me but it shouldn't be that easy!!! I know:D ..................................I know:D that you don't think so:confused: But, everyone has there different opinions, I have mine and you have yours! I won't understand your side and you won't understand mine so..........screw it:D

GPracer2500

07-09-2006, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
You can't prove that it hasn't:rolleyes: Also, I know with everybody on here that has a permit or a hangun ect.... doesn't like that fact here that I'm complaining about getting a handgun in 15mins, obviously your gonna be totally against me but it shouldn't be that easy!!! I know:D ..................................I know:D that you don't think so:confused: But, everyone has there different opinions, I have mine and you have yours! I won't understand your side and you won't understand mine so..........screw it:D

That's nice. Maybe next time I'm out-manuvered by facts and logic I'll just screw it too. I'll just keep on believing in my "opinion" despite it's serious flaws. ;)

Plante400

07-09-2006, 07:20 PM

im getting mine i know that

MOFO

07-10-2006, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Giz400ex
You can't prove that it hasn't:rolleyes:

Why should I have to prove the facts? Its already the law and I'm happy. Your the one that wants things changed. Create your case and prove it - I think thats all we're asking.

Originally posted by Giz400ex
but it shouldn't be that easy!!!

Ok, why should it not be that easy? It works! Until you can prove otherwise, why should it change?

<DRS>GPF

07-10-2006, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by MOFO
Ok, why should it not be that easy? It works! Until you can prove otherwise, why should it change?

because commonality brings complacancy.. people just dont need to be packing guns everywhere they go..
its like stepping back in time when the world had less intellect.. if you feel youre unsafe driving without it, then your driving in the wrong neighborhood, "come into the light"... dont be driving in Detroit and DC at night...

protecting your home is one thing and is more likely the intent when "the right to bear arms" was written..
people wrapping themselves in the constitution and proclaming the right to tote a gun while eagerly waving them around like a flag gives me no comfort..
showoffs are on the bottom of my list of genetic strands that need to continue....

MOFO, im not saying this about you, you just asked "why"..
also, im certainly not saying your one of those who happily breaks out guns when youre out and about, but ill bet if i read all of the posts i can spot a couple who likely are..
those are the ones that im worried about.. those are the ones who have no respect for firearms..

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 06:08 AM

Who are you to tell me what I do and dont need to carry from day to day?

You argument is the same as people who dont think we should be able to own semi-auto rifles like the AR/M-16 family, AK's, FAL's, H&K's, CETME's, ect. But there is no logical reason behind it, you could make the same argument, that no one needs sport quads, because they dont do anything but race around and waste gas. But I dont think you'd agree to that. So why then should I not be allowed to own the guns, and carry the guns I want?

What if I live in Detroit or DC, why should I not drive at night? why shoud I fear for myself, and not be able to protect myself? Why should I have to pander to the will of the criminals in society? If thats what you honestly beleive, I'm sorry, because they've already beaten you.

I feel more secure carrying a weapon because I can defend myself, and friends and family. Whats wrong with that?

I dont like it when kids with little rice rockets sit in the parking lot, and revv the hell out of thier cars while blasting music, by your same argument, they're showing off, and have no respect for the damage thier cars can do when they all to often go racing off, driving above thier ability, and crash. But that doesnt mean that they shouldn't be able to own them.

The constitution says nothing about right to defend your home, its the right to bear arms. Gun owners have already had our rights violated enough by congress, with gun bans, and overly oppressive laws that get nothing done.

And Commonality, does not bring complacancy, a lack of proper instruction, and complacancy, beget more complacancy. I work with guns every day, pistols, rifles, assualt rifles, main battle rifles, light machine guns, heavy machine guns, automatic grenade launchers and missles and grenades. So because they are common every day items, by your statemen, I should be complacent around them. However, because I was trained right, and have a respect for them and the damage they can cause, I have no issue.

The real problem, is people owning guns, who have the right, but not the inteligence to own guns, doing so, and performing said unsafe acts with firearms.

<DRS>GPF

07-10-2006, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by ak_stick
The real problem, is people owning guns, who have the right, but not the inteligence to own guns, doing so, and performing said unsafe acts with firearms.

exactly... and since you cant be psycho police to every individual that owns a gun, by constitutional rights, then barriers must be placed to inhibit the "less than properly instructed"..

it sounds like ive struck a nerve with you.. dont take it personal, im just a guy with an opinion..

btw, guns really cant be compared to cars, bikes, quads etc... perhaps at a minute angle.. but theyre definitely 2 different animals.. try concealing a siverado and going off in the post office youve worked at for 13yrs..

gloating over a gun, especially an assault weapon, isnt the same as showing off a new quad etc...

but seeing your from alaska, perhaps youve more need than the general public to carry a weapon, concealed or not.. you know, in case a wild rabbit attacks you while youre driving to get a new CCW permit..

"Tim: There he is!
King Arthur: Where?
Tim: There!
King Arthur: What? Behind the rabbit?
Tim: It *is* the rabbit!
King Arthur: You silly sod!
Tim: What?
King Arthur: You got us all worked up!
Tim: Well, that's no ordinary rabbit.
King Arthur: Ohh.
Tim: That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!
Sir Robin: You tit! I soiled my armor I was so scared!
Tim: Look, that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!
Sir Galahad: Get stuffed!
Tim: He'll do you up a treat, mate.
Sir Galahad: Oh, yeah?
Sir Robin: You manky Scots git!
Tim: I'm warning you!
Sir Robin: What's he do? Nibble your bum?
Tim: He's got huge, sharp... er... He can leap about. Look at the bones!
King Arthur: Go on, Bors. Chop his head off!
Sir Bors: Right! Silly little bleeder. One rabbit stew comin' right up!

[after Bors is killed by the killer rabbit]
Tim: I *warned* you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you *knew*, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little *bunny*, isn't it? "

:blah: :D

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 07:45 AM

No, you cant, because thankfully we live in a semi free country, and they're still allowed to own guns. As Americans, they have the right to own what they see fit to protect themselves.

But why stop at guns? Why dont we ban people who ride ATV's and motor cycles without helmets from owning them, or driving without a seat belt, because we're realy just making society safer right?

Oh, and AK doesn't require a permit to CCW after you turn 21 its a free right.

I do take it personaly, anyone who doesn't think people should be allowed to freely carry guns, concealed or openly, doesn't understand the 2nd ammendment, and thats already under enough fire from anti gunners as it is, like Clinton, Feinstien and Kerry. You take away a citizens right to arms, you take away his ability to defend himself. Be it in his home, place of work, or somewhere public.

The truth of the fact is, there isn't a single good reason why people shouldn't be allowed to own whatever they want. It doesn't lower crime rates, it doesn't do anything other than intrude on my constitutional rights.

Pappy

07-10-2006, 07:45 AM

The fact remains that the rights of law abiding citizens are being trampled to control those who will not follow ANY law or restriction that is passed.

My personal safety and my right to protect it does not end when I step out of my house. The police are nothing more then report writers in 99% of all violent crime, maybe you can depend on the 1%, I am not willing to take those odds.

swampfoxsc

07-10-2006, 09:38 AM

Refuse to be a victim. It's as simple as that. You don't have to flaunt the fact that you have a gun on you. It's best that no one even know. I often carry a small S&W .38 in my front pocket when I'mout. It's amazing that no one ever has a clue it's there and I like to keep it that way. I'm refusing to be a victim and I refuse to let another person take what I have or endanger my friends, family or myself. That's not arrogance, but the utmost respect for myself and others I care about. I WILL NOT BE THE HELPLESS SHEEP HIDING BEHIND COVER WHEN A LUNATIC OPENS FIRE IN A CROWD. If anyone thinks that is arrogant or foolish, so be it. Just hope someone like me is around if the day ever comes that you need help.

<DRS>GPF

07-10-2006, 11:48 AM

so that i understand even better... what laws have been passed that arent justified?

a clean legal record is good.. dont need crooks or perverts with guns..

2 week waiting period is good.. not too long for the patient collector..

electronic registration.. this beats the paper system that NRA wouldnt let go of.. not sure what the hangup was there..

no guns in or around schools? makes sense..

what else is infringing on my rights to bear arms?

and i still havent been convinced that someone else besides the cops and military need to be packing guns around while going to the grocery store.. i sure as he11 dont trust any of the kids here with guns or adults for that matter..
especially ones that skew the topic in an attempt to justify how not dangerous a firearm is.. complacancy, plain and simple..

why do you feel the need to display your weapons in public??(or just brag about them..) cant you just leave it concealed until its needed?
its like a 10yr old with a knife.. just wont keep from showing off until theyve been cut..

luckily all 10yr olds arent the same, but who can choose which can handle themselves?

also, it isnt about vehicles of any kind.. these are guns able to be shoved into a pocket or boot, not toys or trucks and they deserve more respect than whats being protrayed by some..

look, ive had this argument with family and friends too many times and there's no winning for either side.. its like arguing religion to a nun.. truly a level of blind faith is involved..

owning a gun for protection is one thing, packing it around like a credit card is something else.. you need to consider a bigger picture than yourselves..
im sorry ive offended you, but the laws arent against you personally and you arent everybody.. there's alot of legal fools in this world..

Pappy

07-10-2006, 11:56 AM

Where did anyone state they wanted to show off thier concealed weapon?

The NRA was against the government keeping files thru computer data basing. It is actually against the law for the government to compile files regarding private, legal ownership of firearms.

Sounds like <DRS>GPF is more afraid of legal owners and ccw holders then he is criminals. A properly handled firearm is no more dangerous then many unregulated items anyone can buy. A chainsaw, power eqiupment, an automobile....all more deadly by the statistics then any firearms if you want to bring statistics into play. Some of us prefer to take care of ourselves, others rely on someone else to help protect them and that is your choice. But do not deny my constitutional right to have firearms and carry them for thier intended usage.

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 12:00 PM

Well we could start with the machine gun ban of 86, or the importation ban of certin firearms that go along with that ban. Neither have any sort of reason, they just make it harder for legal gun owners to get guns.

2 week waitin period? Why? name one good reason why we need one. There isnt.

Again, why shouldnt I be allowed to take a gun to the store? Last time I checked crooks dont go, oh, hes at the store, we cant rob him, he cant defend himself. Anywhere you go, you can be the target of a crime, why should you be hamstrung in your defence?

Schools, federal buildings, banks, bars, ok I can let those go, I agree there are some places you dont need a gun, and when I go to one of those, my gun waits for me in the car. When I return it goes back in the holster.

Why do you feel the need to show off your quad? Why cant I be proud of my ownership of a gun? You like quads, some people like guns. Different hobbies, for different folks.

so because a gun can be put in a pocket that makes it dangerous? So because you can see my car, its not dangerous?

If you own a gun for protection, why wouldnt you carry it? If everyone has a gun, and is going to protect themselves, crime would go down.

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 12:04 PM

I think the biggest difference between gun owners and non gun owners is this.

I am not willing to rely on someone else to protect me.

cops will not always be there, the gun by my side will. I carry it, I train with it, and should I ever need it again, it very well may be the difference between me walking away, and be being carried away.

Quad18star

07-10-2006, 12:22 PM

From what I've read , there are certain places that you cannot carry a weapon .... banks, government buildings , schools , etc . When you're not carrying your firearm with you , what laws are applied towards that firearm .... what must the owner of the gun do to the firearm when he or she doesn't carry it with them ??

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 12:27 PM

Nothing, you dont have to lock your guns up or anything if you dont want to.

Now most people own a gunsafe or somthing to lock them up in. In my house I only have a few unsecured firearms. The rest reside either in a locked guncase, or my gunsafe.

my pistol I'm carrying, and I have some sort of a long gun in my room, out of sight, but loaded just in case I need somthing larger than a handgun. Or if we're out camping, my 375 is loaded and stored incase we have somthing I need to deal with.

When I go into a bank or somthing I usualy just unload the gun, and put it either under my center console, or up under my dash on the drivers side, theres a little gap in the sound proofing that I made, and its just big enough to hold my pistol.

Pappy

07-10-2006, 12:27 PM

When you are not legally entitled to carry, the firearm must be secured. Personally, i dont even take a sidearm if I have court or business in any of the places we are not entitled to carry. Notice i use the term "entitled".

States vary with regards to how a weapon is to be transported. In a case with the ammo in an area that is not obtainable from the drivers seat is most common(i.ie. the trunk, lock box etc)

When I was in high school, shotguns and rifles were easily seen hanging fron gun racks in pick up trucks. Only on 1 occasion was there an issue, and that was me:p A person stole it, but I recovered it within 15 minutes. No ammo was available to the person as it was in a locked tool box in the bed of the truck as per our states laws. I actually walked to the principle's office with my 12 gauge to show him I had found it. No one even gave me a funny look. Times change.

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 12:31 PM

Me too, I try to avoid carrying if I'm planning on going somewhere that prohibits carry. I'll do drive up banking instead of going inside, and such.

However in my state, you cant be able to see the gun from outside the vehicle so a gun rack in the rear window is considered brandishing a firearm, where as a loaded pistol in my center console is perfectly ok.

Every state has different laws.

Quad18star

07-10-2006, 12:36 PM

Alright thanks for the information . It's interesting to learn about the different laws you guys have .

Around here trigger locks are a must no matter what . The only exception is when you're out in the woods during hunting season .

Pappy

07-10-2006, 01:21 PM

I think they tried to pass a trigger lock law in some states, but it did not fair to well.

NONE of my firearms have trigger locks. In the event I need one it must be 100% go. An unloaded firearm kept for protection is nothing more then a brick.

I do however keep any firearm not needed for protection in gun cabinets unloaded. Every person in my family, including my children know where the keys are and where the ammo is, and yes, they have been fully trained on how to handle all firearms. That is something most fail to do, educate themselves and thier children.

Quad18star

07-10-2006, 02:03 PM

Off topic question .... How many of you guys lock up your house at night or when you leave for a weekend ??

Pappy

07-10-2006, 02:05 PM

Locked up, dogs at front and rear of residence.

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 02:06 PM

usualy locked when I'm in the house, much less out of.

Quad18star

07-10-2006, 02:17 PM

Alright this may sound stupid , but what is your reason for having to lock your doors ?

Is it for personal safety ?, Safety of your possessions? Because you've heard of other crimes commited ? Or some other reason ..... ?!?!?!

You'll see where I'm going with this . Please answer it honestly .

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 02:30 PM

mostly because its my home, and only those people I wish to have access to it.

And partly because I dont want any of my crap stolen.

GPracer2500

07-10-2006, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF
...look, ive had this argument with family and friends too many times and there's no winning for either side.. its like arguing religion to a nun.. truly a level of blind faith is involved...

:ermm: Not true. There's no blind faith involved in making a reasoned decision about what gun laws do and don't do. That's where many anit-gun rights folks hit a brick wall through which they won't allow themselves to progress. Rather than making a clearly thought out decision they cling to emotional arguments about things like who they would or wouldn't trust with a gun. You can't make sound decisions about citizen rights based on emotion.

From your comments it sounds like you know little about gun ownership--particularly CCW. Your comments about "legal fools", "need", and other pointless generalizations (that are obviously driving your opinion) are NOT relevent.

Pappy

07-10-2006, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by Quad18star
Alright this may sound stupid , but what is your reason for having to lock your doors ?

Is it for personal safety ?, Safety of your possessions? Because you've heard of other crimes commited ? Or some other reason ..... ?!?!?!

It buys me those precious few seconds I may need to fend off a would be intruder. We have a full plan, and that plan includes calling 911 to tell them we have killed an intruder.

My wife just reminded me of this...

We had lived in our first home about 4 months, when we heard the back door open and foot steps. As I rounded the corner with my 45 pointed down the hall way I confronted an unarmed man. I did not know who he was and he did not stop "backing up" until he was outside the door again. He was a friend of the old owner who was unaware he had moved. The door was locked, we are not exactly sure how he entered, and the situation did not warrant me shooting the individual.

Another time, at 3:30 am, my dog growled lightly and myself and the wife became alert to someone in the house. As I rose from my bed with my sidearm, the bedroom door slowly was closed. At that moment I was 2 pounds of pressure away from putting bullets into the door, but once again, no clearly identifable target. That split second could have gone either way. My dad had a bad habit of stopping over on his way to or from work(weird hours) so I was not going to go against my training and shoot.

It ended up NOT being my dad, and as i reopened the door the intruder crashed out our door breaking it off the hinges. Having a firearm does not mean you are going to use it, but in either situation I would not have been the victim.

wvspeedfreak

07-10-2006, 03:41 PM

We lock our doors at night before we go to bed and when we are away.One reason for doing this is in order to report an incident as "breaking and entering" there probably has to be evidence that someone forced there way in.I am just assuming this.Maybe I am wrong.

Quad18star

07-10-2006, 04:22 PM

I know how much you guys like Michael Moore and his ways , especially his film Bowling for Columbine but not everything that he said in his film was completly false . The reason I bring this up , is to really show the difference between two countries , the USA and Canada .

Per capita , Canada has more guns than the USA ... but we have less gun related crime . Do you guys think this is because of more strict gun laws ??

I asked who locks their doors at night , because very rarely do we ever lock our doors . We can leave for a weekend and not lock the doors .... and it's been that way for years . I've lived in the same area for 23 years now , and I'd bet that 3/4s of the residents never lock their doors at night or when they leave . To add to it , I live in a community of 165 000 people , so it's a fair sizeand non of my guns are here at the house .

When we went to the USA last year , we were told by the hotel workers to make sure we always kept our door locked for the room and to make sure the car was locked and all valuables removed . This was in Upstate NY in a small town ... I was pretty shocked .

Again when I was younger we went to Detroit and we were walking through a mall .. I forget the name ( largest mall in Michigan) . My dad wanted to try on a hat that was hanging on the wall behind part of the counter . He stepped around to grab it and was nearly jumped by the workers . I guess that was something you just don't do . Around here and even in Toronto (pop. of 4 million) , it's a common sight to see people walk around a counter and grab something off a shelf to try it on .

Pretty big culture shock between the two countries . Seems up here we're a little more relaxed than you guys ... yet our borders ( Ontario , Michigan and NY) are connected . In those 2 states , people looked at me as if I were trying to rob them of something if I did something that I would normally do up here in Ontario .

<DRS>GPF

07-10-2006, 04:35 PM

ok... my last one in this thread.. as i implied before, its a no win argument..

Originally posted by Pappy
Where did anyone state they wanted to show off thier concealed weapon?

i suppose youre right there, noone has proclaimed any such thing in this thread..

Originally posted by Pappy
The NRA was against the government keeping files thru computer data basing. It is actually against the law for the government to compile files regarding private, legal ownership of firearms.
ive got nothing to hide about gun ownership.. had one to call my own for about 30yrs..

Originally posted by Pappy
Sounds like <DRS>GPF is more afraid of legal owners and ccw holders then he is criminals.
no argument there.. thre's alot more legal gun fanatics than illegal ones..

Originally posted by Pappy
A properly handled firearm is no more dangerous then many unregulated items anyone can buy. but an unproperly handled one is the one im more worried about.. who's properly training them? any Joe Shmo with a clean record can get one and in some states it only takes 15minutes more to go driving around with one..

Originally posted by Pappy
A chainsaw, power eqiupment, an automobile....all more deadly by the statistics then any firearms if you want to bring statistics into play.
a perfect example of commonality brings complacancy..

Originally posted by Pappy
Some of us prefer to take care of ourselves, others rely on someone else to help protect them and that is your choice.
im with you there.. dont come creeping into my home without proper notification or you could leave horizontal..

Originally posted by Pappy
But do not deny my constitutional right to have firearms and carry them for thier intended usage. never did i say that someone shouldnt be able to defend their home.. in public, there's people paid for that..

dont get me wrong, if i truly thought i could meet with possible danger then id take the pistol with me.. camping for instance..

Originally posted by GPracer2500
Not true. There's no blind faith involved in making a reasoned decision about what gun laws do and don't do. That's where many anit-gun rights folks hit a brick wall through which they won't allow themselves to progress. Rather than making a clearly thought out decision they cling to emotional arguments about things like who they would or wouldn't trust with a gun. You can't make sound decisions about citizen rights based on emotion.
i think youre wrong.. its all about faith..
ive got to have faith that you wont go off in heavy traffic cause you hadnt had sleep, your wife left and took the dog with her in your new truck..
youve got to have faith that if you come to illinois, that the criminal activity isnt so bad you want to just drive around the whole state to avoid unloading your gun and locking it in a box..(or trunk)

Originally posted by GPracer2500
From your comments it sounds like you know little about gun ownership--particularly CCW. Your comments about "legal fools", "need", and other pointless generalizations (that are obviously driving your opinion) are NOT relevent.
i know plenty about the laws of the state im in, which isnt a CCW state.. thankfully..
furthermore, this whole thread (other than the first few posts) has been nothing but generalizations.. cars comparing to guns??? c'mon.. they are not the same, and it takes more to leagally drive a car than it does to legally buy a gun..

again, ive no problems owning a gun.. for those too lazy to read earlier posts, i own 3.
they each have purpose and i teach a deep respect for them and their use..

the "fools" i refer to are those dont have any sense of awe and respect with a firearm.. ive met many a legal idiot that thinks nothing of just randomly firing rounds into the air..
there's alot of "leased" properties that the wealthy(generally from the urban environment) pay stupid money to shoot and kill things.. supposedly deer, but not much is left after all the shooting.. "legal fools"

but of course, i do live in the wild, wild, midwest..

i draw the line when it comes to the proclaimed "necessity" of keeping a gun on your persons at all times..
its safer out here than you think..

Pappy

07-10-2006, 04:47 PM

<DRS>GPF

I think no matter what side of this issue everyone is on, we can all agree that no matter what, when personal responsibilty is on the line, fewer and fewer people can be expected to do the right thing. Wether that is owning a firearm, an atv or an automobile. I do not buy into using things that are more dangerous to the average American (cars, chains saws etc) then a firearm to stress that it is the person not the tool. I am far from complacent, merely pointing out the obvious.

To you, camping may be a situation where you feel a side arm is needed, to a vast majority of others it can be daily life. Infact, camping in state parks have thier own regulations regarding firearms especially handguns. This country has decided that laws are needed because common sense and personal responsibilty can not be held accountable from its citizens. I will not follow any law I feel is not in accordance with the constitution. Throw me in jail if needed, but that is how I was raised to think.

And again, you made a case for arguement by proclaiming there are more legalized gun fanatics then illegal when you have absolutley no facts to bolster your statement. The mere usage of the term "fanatic" tells me your stance on anyone but yourself owning a firearm. I reckon you are the last man in the world who can decide when it is ok or not to carry a weapon.

rebelbanshee

07-10-2006, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF

never did i say that someone shouldnt be able to defend their home.. in public, there's people paid for that..

You have a paid body gaurd with you all the time?! SWEET! I cant afford that so I carry a gun for myself.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/rebelbanshee/misc%20stuff/glock301.jpg

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 10:38 PM

exactly, like I said, the difference is that guys who carry weapons are refusing to be a victim and dont rely upon someone else to protect themselves.

And I'd like to see the gun stats that say there are more guns in Canada than America, because with states like AK, Tex, MN, ND, SD, ect I dont beleive that.

Quad18star

07-10-2006, 10:44 PM

I can't remember who has said to prove that someone was able to buy a gun then go shoot someone , but I did a quick search ( 2 minute search) and here's 1 story that I came up with .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

US: Eight dead in shooting rampage at workplace

Six people were killed when an ex-postal employee opened fire at her former workplace in Goleta (California) on 30 January 2006.

According to press reports, the assailant, armed with a 9mm handgun, also shot and killed her former neighbour before travelling to the post office. After the murders she committed suicide by shooting herself.

The shooter was able to purchase a gun despite having a history of mental illness, acording to police. The assailant filled in an application for a background check, and picked up the gun two days later after the check failed to find any problems, according to the shop owner.

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 10:49 PM

Infact after 20 sec on yahoo, I found this little blurb

http://www.safety-council.org/news/sc/2002/dyk-jan.html

"The US has over three times the number of guns per capita as Canada; the number of handguns per capita is 63.3 times higher."

Right off the second paragraph. That study was in 2002, and I doubt that canada has gone on a gun buying binge to pass the US.

So Canada has far fewer guns than America.

And yes, you always hear about the bad things that happen with guns, but what about the almost million americans a year that use thier guns to defend themselves and live to tell about it? Try thumbing through an American Rifleman one of these days, every issues has a couple pages devoted to Americans who defend themselves.

Quad18star

07-10-2006, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick

And I'd like to see the gun stats that say there are more guns in Canada than America, because with states like AK, Tex, MN, ND, SD, ect I dont beleive that.

I never said there were more guns ...... I said there were more guns per capita ..... meaning population for population , Canada has more guns per person than the USA .

Here's the first website that I was able to find about how many guns are in Canada .

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/GunsinCanada.htm

ak_stick

07-10-2006, 10:54 PM

so I'm still missing where it says there are more guns per capita in canada. unless I just skipped over it reading, I dont see it.

Pappy

07-11-2006, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Quad18star
I can't remember who has said to prove that someone was able to buy a gun then go shoot someone , but I did a quick search ( 2 minute search) and here's 1 story that I came up with .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

US: Eight dead in shooting rampage at workplace

Six people were killed when an ex-postal employee opened fire at her former workplace in Goleta (California) on 30 January 2006.

According to press reports, the assailant, armed with a 9mm handgun, also shot and killed her former neighbour before travelling to the post office. After the murders she committed suicide by shooting herself.

The shooter was able to purchase a gun despite having a history of mental illness, acording to police. The assailant filled in an application for a background check, and picked up the gun two days later after the check failed to find any problems, according to the shop owner.

Thats 2 full days...doesnt sound like metal issues, sounds like someone had a vendetta.

popo

07-11-2006, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by Quad18star
[B] Canada has more guns per person than the USA .

And that explains the low crime rate in Canada.

Ole Joch is not gonna try to rob Pierre wit da pistola in da house, knowing he'd get a golden bb in the *****$$$. i.e buttocks

Quad18star

07-11-2006, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by popo
And that explains the low crime rate in Canada.

Ole Joch is not gonna try to rob Pierre wit da pistola in da house, knowing he'd get a golden bb in the *****$$$. i.e buttocks

LMAO !!!!!

I remember reading somewhere that the average Canadian household has somewhere around 2.7 - 3 firearms .... a number in that range . Maybe that explains the low crime rate , but then again , "IF" everyone is following the law , a robber shouldn't have to be too worried because the firearms SHOULD be locked away with ammunition in another area of the house or locked up seperatly as well .

The majority of firearms owned in Canada are rifles and shotguns . A very low number of firearms are handguns and only about 50 people in Canada have the authority to carry a concealed handgun for self protection . That's 50 people out of 30-some odd million people in this country .

Pappy , I'm sure she did have a vendetta , but she also had a history of mental illness . Personally , I don't think someone with a mental illness should be able to carry a firearm, let alone buy one legally . Noone knows if she could have purchased a gun illegally to go off and kill these people .... maybe she could have , maybe not ..... but whoever approved her application basically gave her the legal right to buy the gun and blast 7 other people away . Should that person that approved her application be held responsible for those deaths ??? That's a whole other topic !!!!:)

ak_stick

07-11-2006, 09:10 AM

It depends on the "mental" illness, these days just about anything could be a mental illness, from somthing like Bi-polar, to taking anti depressents. or prescrition sleep aids.

Pappy

07-11-2006, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Quad18star

Pappy , I'm sure she did have a vendetta , but she also had a history of mental illness . Personally , I don't think someone with a mental illness should be able to carry a firearm, let alone buy one legally . Noone knows if she could have purchased a gun illegally to go off and kill these people .... maybe she could have , maybe not ..... but whoever approved her application basically gave her the legal right to buy the gun and blast 7 other people away . Should that person that approved her application be held responsible for those deaths ??? That's a whole other topic !!!!:)

I couldnt agree more, however every system no matter how well designed can make errors. And it would depend on her classification of illness. Remember, the reports love to add things or forgo things that can help one find out the real facts behind just about any issue. There is never a justifacation, and tragic outcomes sell news.

Greg, Canada has been able to watch America grow and maybe in some ways has been able to head off issues seen by Canadians as an American problem. The sad parts is that the majority of crimes I hear about and see on the TV have been overran by immigrants. I can remember when it was the white man, then the black man, now its Malcom Jamal Hockaloogie from some 3rd world country killing the convience store clerk in a botched robbery attempt. I blame ALL the American government for not dealing with this issue LONG ago. Our borders should have been heavily restricted and now we are paying the price!

stoled_400_:(

07-11-2006, 12:01 PM

about the police being the people to defend you in public... a police officer's job is to enforce the law, NOT to protect the citizens. IMO, it is your RESPONSIBILITY to be able to protect yourself. expecting the police to do it when there are FAR more citizens than police is just unrealistic.

swampfoxsc

07-11-2006, 12:15 PM

Statistics have shown over and over that the number of guns in a country have nothing to do with the rate of crime. Statistics can also be skewed to produce differnt results or misleading results. Cultural, economic, racial and many other factors are responsible. People have been assaulting and killing each other for thousands of years before firearms were ever in use.

The person who relies on the police for their safety is a fool. Police are there to write the report after the crime has been committed. The time it takes for an officer to get to you after you call 911 it time enough for you to be killed your wife rapes and your kids abducted. That's why we defend the right to have a gun for self defense. You can think you're safe all you want but it only takes one time to be wrong and it's too late then.

Quad18star

07-11-2006, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
I couldnt agree more, however every system no matter how well designed can make errors. And it would depend on her classification of illness. Remember, the reports love to add things or forgo things that can help one find out the real facts behind just about any issue. There is never a justifacation, and tragic outcomes sell news.

Greg, Canada has been able to watch America grow and maybe in some ways has been able to head off issues seen by Canadians as an American problem. The sad parts is that the majority of crimes I hear about and see on the TV have been overran by immigrants. I can remember when it was the white man, then the black man, now its Malcom Jamal Hockaloogie from some 3rd world country killing the convience store clerk in a botched robbery attempt. I blame ALL the American government for not dealing with this issue LONG ago. Our borders should have been heavily restricted and now we are paying the price!

I agree with you .... and I'm sure most regulations that have come into effect have had some influence by what we Canadians see happening in the USA ( ie . school shootings , police shootings, postal workers gone mad , etc) .... these are just my assumptions cuz I'm not the one writting these laws .

Again I agree that it seems most crimes commited now days are from immigrants and other visible " minorities" . I would love nothing more than to see our Canadian government implement stronger immigration laws and hell I'd be all for them closing off the borders to these people ... be it Pakis , Mexicans , Jamaicans , Chinese and even the white guy that wants to come over from Sweden .... but that will never happen . Mainly because Canada is a relatively "new" country of only 139 years . Our government is saying that we need the immigrants ...that they're making our country strive and that we're multicultural . I say all the government is doing , is allowing Vancover to become the New China and allowing Toronto along with other cities to be overrun by immigrants . They come here to start a new life ..... well when you step foot on our soil , leave the laws of your previous country at the border and follow our laws . But that doesn't happen because spineless governments allow these people to bring it all with them ... violence and all .

Quad18star

07-11-2006, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by stoled_400_:(
about the police being the people to defend you in public... a police officer's job is to enforce the law, NOT to protect the citizens. .

Don't police officers take an oath to Serve and Protect the public ?? :confused:

Stevie-D

07-11-2006, 12:34 PM

just read through all this..and i'm going to have to agree with pappy. i am only 18 years old, so i legally cannot own a pistol. my dad owned a ruger 9mm pistol that he gave to me a while back. i plan on registering it and getting a carrying permit when i turn 21.

now to the people/person who say that there should be a longer waiting period to either purchase or carry a pistol, stating the reason that a mad husband could , in a moment of anger, buy a pistol to shoot his wife, etc....
let me throw this out there...a man comes into a gun shop, buys a pistol..this transaction is documented. there is proof that the man has purchased a pistol. now, a half hour later the wife shows up shot to death. i have heard that family members are the first suspects in a crime. so the police find that right before she was killed, her husband purchased a pistol, which can be matched by balistic tests. he is now their prime suspect. makes no sense to me.
if he wants her dead bad enough, he is going to find a way to make it happen.

i own 4 firearms, including an Ak-47, which can be considered an "assault rifle". when i got that, the paperwork took roughly 20 minutes. just because i own this gun should not give me the stereotype that i am out to kill people because i own a gun that is quite capable of doing just that. the gun is used for target shooting and plinking. as is the ruger 9mm. have only shot about 200 rounds through the AK since i got it because all of the ammo is being shipped over seas:mad:

popo

07-11-2006, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Quad18star
Don't police officers take an oath to Serve and Protect the public ?? :confused:

Yes.

ak_stick

07-11-2006, 12:42 PM

Um this is just a little technical correction but

Your AK-47 isn't an "Assualt Rifle" An assualt rifle is a select fire weapon (i.e. semi/bust/full auto) And fall under NFA laws, where as yours is a civilian, semi auto version, and there for not an "assualt rifle" The media just calls them that because it makes them sound scary as apposed to, a semi automatic rifle.

And you can own a pistol in most states at 18, however, you can not buy a pistol from a federaly liscensed dealer untill your 21.

Quad18star

07-11-2006, 01:12 PM

Stevie-D , to comment on the scenario you presented .

Put yourself in the place on an investigator , who would you question and suspect to be the shooter ??

99% of the people would say the husband , mostly because of the irony that he bought a pistol only an hour before she was murdered . Family members would be the easiest to question and suspect first , because they are the ones that have daily interactions and contact with the victim . The husband having nothing to hide since he didn't shoot her , would turn over the gun to have it examined . Ballistics testing would most likely be performed and evidence would show that he is not guilty of the crime .

Now if the wife shows up dead , documents show that he just purchased a gun and he's nowhere to be found , we'll then you can really suspect that he's the killer .

The same scenario can be played out when a child goes missing and one of the parents can't be found . They are classified as a suspect until proven that they are not because of their close relationship to the child . Questions are asked , alibies are given , decisions are made whether or not the person should be kept as a suspect or not .

Pappy

07-11-2006, 03:02 PM

LOL, I know this is not anywhere near politicaly correct, but since when do I care:p

If everyone had the immediate ability to do major bodily harm to another person, alot less BS would tend to happen in this country. Maybe road rage would plumet upon hearing of a few cases where poindexter stepped out and put king of the road on a slab. Or how about that mugger that snatched a purse only to catch one in the back of the head by soccer mom who knew how to do what should be done!

LOL...I was born 150 years too late.

Quad18star

07-11-2006, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
LOL, I know this is not anywhere near politicaly correct, but since when do I care:p

If everyone had the immediate ability to do major bodily harm to another person, alot less BS would tend to happen in this country. Maybe road rage would plumet upon hearing of a few cases where poindexter stepped out and put king of the road on a slab. Or how about that mugger that snatched a purse only to catch one in the back of the head by soccer mom who knew how to do what should be done!

LOL...I was born 150 years too late.

Hahahaha !!!!

PismoLocal

07-11-2006, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Quad18star
I can't remember who has said to prove that someone was able to buy a gun then go shoot someone , but I did a quick search ( 2 minute search) and here's 1 story that I came up with .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

US: Eight dead in shooting rampage at workplace

Six people were killed when an ex-postal employee opened fire at her former workplace in Goleta (California) on 30 January 2006.

According to press reports, the assailant, armed with a 9mm handgun, also shot and killed her former neighbour before travelling to the post office. After the murders she committed suicide by shooting herself.

The shooter was able to purchase a gun despite having a history of mental illness, acording to police. The assailant filled in an application for a background check, and picked up the gun two days later after the check failed to find any problems, according to the shop owner.

LOL..... I told pappy about that shooting, it happened the day after I shipped my parts to him. I lost my spindles, motor mounts, all 3 calipers, rear linkage and 4 hubs cuz of that shooting. It happened about hour south of where I live and my parts were there.

stoled_400_:(

07-12-2006, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Quad18star
Don't police officers take an oath to Serve and Protect the public ?? :confused:

uhh.. my b... :scary: :o :mad: lol. well, what i meant was its unrealistic for them to always be there to protect you, so you may need to defend yourself at some point when an officer isn't around.

stoled_400_:(

07-12-2006, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by swampfoxsc
The person who relies on the police for their safety is a fool. Police are there to write the report after the crime has been committed. The time it takes for an officer to get to you after you call 911 it time enough for you to be killed your wife rapes and your kids abducted. That's why we defend the right to have a gun for self defense. You can think you're safe all you want but it only takes one time to be wrong and it's too late then.

^^^^ thats what i meant. sort of... :cool:

stoled_400_:(

07-12-2006, 08:55 PM

batgeek

10-31-2006, 11:51 PM

holy christ. i was gone and missed this thread! :(