Don't ride ATV's on road in NY [Archive]

Rocketman80

06-26-2006, 11:33 PM

Here's a link for everyone to check out. http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=39122
This young man was riding his ATV with his friend on a motorcycle on a back country road in NYS. A New York State Police officer pulled them over and was questioning their registration and why they were riding without any helmets. The young man got scared and took off and as he did the Police officer grabbed onto the rack of the ATV and started being dragged. in return the Police officer pulled out his pistol and shot the man in the back of the head. Now it looks like the NYSPD is trying to cover up the mistake with all types of accuses. Using a current manhunt for an escaped fugitive as a mistake in identity. But that's not all the NYSPD and DA stories keep changing. One officer says that's not the case and the family of the man who was shot says it was the case because they were listening to the scanner at the time and they heard the Police come over the scanner saying I think they shot the fugitive. So this looks like a big mess for anyone riding ATV's in Western New York. I just can't imagine how it's worth being killed over a ATV registration and helmet. Please read the news story and form your own opinions. But from what I see it really looks like a cover up in it's early stages to protect the fine image of our already over policed state. I know if the police were to interrogate you or I and if our stories didn't match, you would immediately become the prime suspect and under investigation. I don't think they're going to be able to sweep this one under the rug. If you think about it, if the cop had just walked up and asked the man to take the key out of his four wheeler, he could've never taken off and none of this would've happened. This is very sad and I hope the real truth to the story comes through.

06-26-2006, 11:38 PM

How do you confuse two men that are 20 years apart? A cop is not suppose to shoot a fugitive in the head..God, that makes me angry at police.

250xridamatt

06-26-2006, 11:45 PM

It really sucks that it had to end like it did, but you cant put all of the blame on the cops. The guy ran from the police. If he would have just accepted the ticket, warning, or whatever, it would have never happened. The officer could have also felt that his life was endangered while being dragged behind an atv, but the report doesnt give us any kind of details that let us know. I think that it is pretty rediculous that a guy was killed like that, but I dont want to jump to any conclusions until there is more information to base my opinion on.

GPracer2500

06-27-2006, 12:01 AM

Yes. There are MAJOR pieces of information to this story that we don't know about. There's no way I could form a reasonable judgement based on what that article reported.

Whatever the case, it's a tragedy.

CBRSLIDER

06-27-2006, 01:51 AM

Definately a tragedy. But as GPRacer said, there is major information missing from the news story. Unfortunately all we have is the misinformation that is so often spewed by our media. Which is a very good possibility in this situation. I live and work within a close distance to this incident. The story that was broadcast this morning was that while the trooper was investigating the atv on the roadway, the opr(deceased) took off while the officer was talking to him. When he went to leave, the officer became hooked onto the atv by some means(unknown) and was being dragged along by the atv. The officer was dragged for about 1 mile and had suffered injuries while being dragged by this opr. The officer then was able to shoot the opr in an effort to stop the atv from dragging him further.

It was a brief and concise report of what was known at that time. Is it accurate? I do not know but once again the media is first to damn the police. How about they present the story as it happened and not add the slant that the police were at fault, which is a normal scenario portrayed by the media.

Some may wonder why I am for the police and not damning them since a fellow atv'r was shot. Well I am a police officer here in PA and deal with situations on a regular basis where the media uses unverified "facts" to portray the police as overpowering, jack-booted thugs. This case seems to be exactly what is the norm in our liberal, anti-police, anti-be a man and own up to what you did wrong society.

What we need to do is wait and get the facts into what took place during this incident. As usual everyone is too fast to judge without the necessary information. Was the officer wrong? He might have been. But if you drug me for 1 mile while I was hooked onto your atv, and knew full well that you were dragging me, causing me injury, you bet I'd take every measure at my disposal to end me being dragged and injured. It would not be me that took a simple atv on the roadway stop and escalated it into an aggravated assault on a police officer, it would be you.

But once again we need to step back and let the investigation unfold before we get into who was right and wrong.

As for the metion of the mistaken identity, I know that NYSP just had a trooper shot about 2 weeks ago by Ralph PHILLIPS. He is a very dangerous man but we do not know if the Trooper mistook the deceased's identity as PHILLIPS. Once again the media seems to want to place blame right away without having all the facts of the case. Just because the family believes they heard the officer speaking as if he had the fugitive does not mean that its accurate. Many people do not know what our radio transmissions mean and the language in which we transmit them. We use 10 codes and many are different from department to department. So what they thougth they heard may not have even been accurate. But again let the investigation dictate the facts, not a slanted media.

My prayers go out to the family of the young man. This is a tragedy. Hopefully the investigation will be able to explain what exactly took place. Also please don't think that the only tragedy was that of the young man being shot. The officer has to live with the fact that he took a person's life. Right or wrong, he still has to live with that. Many think that we are cold heartless people but the majority of us are no different than the rest of us on this site. God bless all those involved.

Ray

popo

06-27-2006, 05:56 AM

Thanks Ray.

CBRSLIDER

06-27-2006, 06:02 AM

"popo: Thanks Ray."

You're more than welcome. Just hit a nerve since we are so close to the area in question. Hope you are feeling well.

Ray

Crazy lil punk

06-27-2006, 06:38 AM

man i hate when this stuff happens. poor kid was so young, he was only scared. there is definatly pieces of the story missing because the cop would be dead if he was dragged a mile, and why would u shoot some one in the head? LIARS TRYING TO COVER IT UP

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by 250xridamatt
It really sucks that it had to end like it did, but you cant put all of the blame on the cops.

Yes you can. Police aren't supposed to shoot in the head, even if they have to shoot the suspect. Even then, the tires would have been even closer.

jcv400ex

06-27-2006, 07:22 AM

Anyone find more info on this yet?

Rocketman80

06-27-2006, 07:34 AM

I appreciate the insite from the police prospective Ray. If you had seen some of the first broadcast on this story you see the people being interviewed who heard it over the scanner and there is no confusion about the police officer clearly stating that we got Bucky. So there was obviously a mistake in identity somewhere. And your comment on people just being a man and owning up to their crime. I think is pretty arrogant and demonstrates the attitude of all police within our country. I don't know if it's the badge or what but if you're wondering why there may be a concensus of people being anti police is because people are tired of being governed and policed to death. And I've been drug behind a ATV and we ended up doing it for fun the rest of the day in the mud. If he had been drug a mile down the road he would've been seriously injured and probably would've never been able to reach his weapon. The report was that he was treated and released for minor cuts and abrasions. I have seen it first hand where the police will focus only on one person in their investigations and because they don't want to look bad by accusing the wrong person, they will pursue them relentlessly. Maybe this is a wake up call to all police officers to understand that you are human and you do make mistakes, just be a man and own up to your mistakes and stop destroying lifes. But that never happens. I see and hear about people being pulled over all the time and instead of just getting the speeding ticket they get 5 other tickets with it just to make their original ticket stick through plea barganing. What joke. It's time for the police to take a better look at the people they hire and if they really have what it takes to be a police officer and "truly do the right things." There is more corruption percentage amongst police agencies that we have with our general public. You shouldn't get into the police business if you're not prepared to accept the inherent risks that go along with the job.
Now let's talk about all the different stories between the D.A. and the Police. Tell me that if you were doing an investigation and the people you were investigating stories didn't jive. Who would become your main suspects at that point? You know dam good and well if it was a civilian that shot someone they would first off be sitting in jail waiting to for arrainment.
I think with our great CSI teams we have now that it should be easy to find out exactly what happened. I wonder how much gunpowder residue was on the back of the young mans clothes. Because if you shoot someone at close range you know that it will leave residue all over the victim. And if there was none, what do you think the determination should be from that?
Now from the information we all have now I see senario's that could've possibly happened. And if you think about it makes sense. If you as a police officer pulled these guys over and the guy goes to start his machine and take off, you're first reaction would be to reach out and grab at the machine to stop him and it would very possibly drag you. The guy didn't have a helmet on so I'm sure if the police officer told the guy he was being injured he would've probably stopped for fear of more trouble. I know I would've. I certainly wouldn't need to be shot to be stopped. I've been in this same senario and the way I see it is the only mistake the ATV rider made was that he stopped. He should've never stopped and just kept on going to nearest trail head and be gone. I've never seen anyone around here stop for the police when they were riding a ATV, Snowmobile or Dirt bike unless were being pursued by the same type of machine. I'm not condoning or saying it's okay to elude police when they are in pursuit of you. It's not. You should stop co operate with police say as little as possible, get your ticket and be on your way. The fight should be in the court room. But here's what the problem is with all of it that. Everyone knows that all judges are probably going to take the police officers word over the civilians. Everyone knows that when civilians go into the court room, we sit in waiting rooms while the Police officer goes in the back door and speaks directly with judges and D.A. You people all work together and you know it. That's why people don't want to stop or as you said within our anti police society. Hey if someone does something wrong and breaks the law, I agree you should own up to it. Do you remember the days when you could get pulled over for a DWI and the local police officer would tell you to go home or I'm going to arrest you. Do you remember: when if a kid was riding his unregistered dirt bike down the road you took him home to his parents and they did more to the kid than courts. What happened to police officers being lienent? Those things would never happen with todays police force. Today if you pull a guy over that may have had a few drinks, it's destroy his life. If a kid gets pulled over on his dirt bike it's not take him home to the parents it's take him to jail and the parents can pick him up there after we've started the process of destroying his life. Owe, I know here comes the part where they're breaking the law and they deserve what they get. Yeah that's great but there is you're anwser for the liberal Anti Police attitudes from civilians. What we need in this country is to stop electing politicians that lie, lawyers and police officers who come up with new laws every day that are being misinterpretted to work to the advantage of the legal system. People in this country need to wake up, The USA is becoming the Russia of the new age. Think about it. How much money do you all pay out of your taxes. Anywhere from 20 to 50%? Now think about the Policed state that Russia use to be in, it all looks very simular to the way the U.S. is being run today. I think we need to get rid of half the police jobs we have today. Get rid of half of the political seats. And jokingly just plain get rid of all Lawyers. All our newly elected officials want to make a name for themselves so they propose new bills to congress taking away our civil liberty's. For those who don't understand, it's real simple you're being governed to death by the elected leaders of our country. And on top of that those new laws are being manipulated by law enforcement to suit their needs in convicting you. So Ray don't deny it. You know exactly what I'm talking about. If police would just focus more on the serious crimes that the general public wants solved and maybe back off a little on the less serious crimes that don't really mean much to begin with maybe the American people wouldn't carry those Anti this and that attitudes that you spoke of. If I'm not mistaken there's a little document call the Constitution of the United States that provides us as civilians to pursue a life of liberty and happiness. I think our fore fathers would be appalled at what has happened to this country. If you remember our ancestors left England to escape the taxes and the rule of England. Without these rights we become an ibid. I hope this becomes a wake up call to all of you who want to continue to live freely in this country.

AL Elks

06-27-2006, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Yes you can. Police aren't supposed to shoot in the head, even if they have to shoot the suspect. Even then, the tires would have been even closer.

OK! Have you ever even shot a pistol? Even if you have, have you ever shot one while being DRAGGED?

I retired from the military and have put more rounds down range from a pistol than I can count. Hell, I've probably put more rounds down range in 1 year than an average police officer does in his entire career. They just don't have the time or the funding to constantly practice their shooting skills. It takes hours and hours of practice in order to learn the art of quick shooting. Only after this practice can you accurately shoot someone in the head. We trained to put 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. While being dragged behind an ATV I can not imagine even trying to shoot someone in the head. This officer was not able to aim accurately. He just shot in the direction of the guy dragging him.

Again we do not have all the facts most likely he was just trying to shoot the guy and it just happens that (being dragged and bounced all over the place) that the shot hit the guy in the head.

There are too many people in this world who want to blame "THE MAN" and don't want to own up to their own mistakes. Heck we can't even convict someone who has admitted to killing someone without hearing the excuses of how "THE MAN" was at fault or how he was brought up caused him to do it. Well if you truly believe this to be the case then do something about it by becoming the man and making it better. In my life experience I've learned that as I move up on the food chain that things really aren't being dictated by "THE MAN" and what I thought to be reality in fact was not true. Unless you've walked a mile in their shoes you have no idea of all the BS they have to put up with EVERY DAY. Police officers have it rough guys and gals. We OWE them respect. Sure there are a few that are corrupt. It's just like any other organization. It's a microcosm of society. Hell the military is the same. It's just a community within a community and you have your bad apples. 99% of the police officers are FANTASTIC individuals and their hearts are in the right place. If you live in a town that has that 1% then get off your rear end and do something about it. Unfortunately though there are too many people out there that just want to stick it to any police officer, which presents its own problem. Heck that's what's going on right now in IRAQ. The insurgents have learned that if they blame military members for crimes it takes the soldiers out of the action which is exactly what they want. Do any of you remember the claims that our military members shot a bunch of individuals in a Mosque? Well what really happened is that they shot some insurgents, left the scene and the insurgents drug them into the Mosques. Well as a result of that members of the SOF community are now being required to remove any insurgent’s bodies from the scene in order that they can not spread their propaganda. Goes to show you that many times the squeakiest gear is the problem gear.

OK I’m done ranting now. One last comment:

Thank you from the bottom of my heart to all the Police officers on this site.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 08:41 AM

Why would anyone in there right mind grab on to the atv unless it was an 80 or 90cc. The Officer put himself in that position. There is a thing called letting go of the atv. They always have to try and be the heroes and end up screwing up. I have had many encounters with the local police in my area, I got mine impounded last month for being on the road, actually driving sensible, and someone called the cops. It was super swampy and I had road tires on so needless to say there was no where to go. Ever notice it always takes 2 of them to take care of the situation. Of course the one had to get out running his mouth. Of course he had to get in my face telling me what he can all do to me and he can keep my 4 wheeler if he wanted. I told him he can make the payments I would go buy a new one. I had to also let him know I just paid his paycheck for the day.I kindly flipped the quad on its side in a pretty good size ditch and started walking home. They were waving there arms and jumping around as I walked away. I saw the tow truck pull up and watched in in amazement as the 2 officers had to try and drag my quad out of the ditch. I guess they thought they didn't need to use the winch. They are badasses you know. Eventually they used the winch to drag it out.If an officer could actually come up and not run their mouths it would not escalate to these levels. 99% of the time when an officer pulls someone over on an ATV they come out being mouthy pricks at least around here. Don't get me wrong there are very nice officers out there and I am not ripping on them, just the mouthy a**holes that take their authority way to far.

rmz250

06-27-2006, 08:42 AM

I heard this on the news as I'm around this area. Theres always cop chases going on around here. last year they impounded my quad when I was putting down the road on my quad. Cop came up to me and I refered to him as sir, showed him respect and he still snatched me. If you run you guys better be fast.

LT80

06-27-2006, 08:49 AM

The problem: there was a thief loose around there and they presumed this was him (best I can tell).

Now, how do you drag a person a mile on a quad? They cannot let go, clothing hung up,?????, a zillion possibilitys I guess.

We will never know the truth about this one.

Ya most cops are great. Emphasis on "most".

rmz250

06-27-2006, 08:51 AM

Was it a case of mistaken identity or just a routine traffic stop with a tragic outcome? That's what the Chautauqua County District Attorney is trying to figure out after a state trooper shot and killed a man Sunday morning.

Along a country road just outside of Silver Creek there is small roadside memorial. For one family it is a reminder of a death that already has caused deep sadness and confusion.

"They've got a lot of investigating to do," said Gloria Horton.

Her son was 25-year-old Bradley Horton, a carpenter and ex-marine. Long before dawn Sunday morning, while riding an ATV, he and a friend who was on a dirt bike were pulled over by state police on that same road bearing the sad marker.

As the troopers left the car, state police said Horton and his friend tried to ride off. As one trooper grabbed Horton, police said the trooper was dragged or carried by the ATV nearly a mile, then shot and killed Horton.

"I want every investigation possible," said Kelly Horton, Bradley’s wife.

The Horton family, coincidentally, had been listening to their police scanner at the same time Bradley was killed. From what they heard, they said state police were speaking as though they had cornered fugitive Ralph "Bucky" Phillips, not Bradley Horton.

They believe state police mistook him for Phillips.

"It had nothing to do with this," State Police Major Michael Manning.

Chautauqua County District Attorney David Foley is now leading the investigation into what happened.

"We are going to make every effort to get to the bottom of it," he said.

Foley spoke to 2 On Your Side's Rich Kellman.

Kellman: "Some family members are under the impression that the troopers may have mistaken Mr. Horton for Bucky Phillips. Is that likely?"
Foley: "Did they have reason to engage these two vehicles that were on the highway? Yes they did. Did they mistake this individual for Mr. Phillips? I can't really say."

Phillips and Horton are nearly 20 years apart. And Foley said the trooper had shined a bright spotlight on Horton, suggesting he got a good look at him moments before the chase that ended so tragically.

The Horton family also believes the trooper used excessive force for a traffic stop. Foley said he's awaiting the results of an autopsy to see where Horton was shot and where the trooper was when he shot him. He said we should know the answer in a few days.

AL Elks

06-27-2006, 08:54 AM

See this thread:

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=240069

400exc

06-27-2006, 08:56 AM

Some cops around here just stop you and tell you to stay off the road and riev in the ditch, but then some of the cops are pricks and go and try to do everything they can to get you and take your quad. Thats just plain stupid, but i guess thas their job.

rmz250

06-27-2006, 09:02 AM

Again as I ride in in wny I know exactly when there are chases and this has not been good for wny riders. 2 weeks ago a kid died on his 450r doing what? 5th gear wheelies down the road.

Slinky

06-27-2006, 09:12 AM

well i'm not a police officer, and i've had my own run ins with the law, but you know what , every time it happend i was calm, courtious and respectful to the officers. Did i end up getting shot, no....did i maybe get accused of something i didnt do or questioned a little deeper than i thought i should be, yes, but thats their job. They are trained to find the week spot of a person to see if they are lying or have something to hide.

i would put money onto this story that there is more to it than any of us will ever know. The police have a job just like the rest of us, most of them perform their jobs very well, some take it a little deeper than they should and some abuse the power. I'm sorry but if i'm getting dragged behind an ATV against my will i will take any means to stopping it in order to save my hide. I doubt that the officer was aiming for the guys head, there is no such thing as aiming when your being dragged behind something. I'm sure he just shot to try and stop what was going on and it was by chance that he hit the kid in the head. If the kid hadnt ran, he would probably still be alive today.

jcv400ex

06-27-2006, 09:21 AM

I tried "The cop was being a prick" to my dad once and got smacked. My dad asked if what I was doing was wrong, (YES) then the cop had every right to be a prick to me. He wasn't pulling me over just for the heck of it.

If the cop did think he was the Phillips cop killer, than I can see him first grabbing onto the quad and getting tangled up. If the cop would just opened fired as he was pulling away on the quad, then I would question his actions, but from what I am interpreting, the officer was not in the wrong.

And the reason officers do stops in pairs, is for safety. Not so they out number you and can harrass you......they have a family that they need to go home to every night.

Slinky

06-27-2006, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by juiced450r
Why would anyone in there right mind grab on to the atv unless it was an 80 or 90cc. The Officer put himself in that position. There is a thing called letting go of the atv. They always have to try and be the heroes and end up screwing up. I have had many encounters with the local police in my area, I got mine impounded last month for being on the road, actually driving sensible, and someone called the cops. It was super swampy and I had road tires on so needless to say there was no where to go. Ever notice it always takes 2 of them to take care of the situation. Of course the one had to get out running his mouth. Of course he had to get in my face telling me what he can all do to me and he can keep my 4 wheeler if he wanted. I told him he can make the payments I would go buy a new one. I had to also let him know I just paid his paycheck for the day.I kindly flipped the quad on its side in a pretty good size ditch and started walking home. They were waving there arms and jumping around as I walked away. I saw the tow truck pull up and watched in in amazement as the 2 officers had to try and drag my quad out of the ditch. I guess they thought they didn't need to use the winch. They are badasses you know. Eventually they used the winch to drag it out.If an officer could actually come up and not run their mouths it would not escalate to these levels. 99% of the time when an officer pulls someone over on an ATV they come out being mouthy pricks at least around here. Don't get me wrong there are very nice officers out there and I am not ripping on them, just the mouthy a**holes that take their authority way to far. i hope you have some sort of learning dissabilty or something to explain your reasonings behind all this:rolleyes:

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 10:54 AM

Obviously you have never encountered a**hole cops before. In my county that is what they all are. I show them respect until I get disrespected. I do not let someone, cop or anyone get in my face and harass me when the situation can be a simple,"heres what you did wrong, I am going to have to give you a ticket", and actually explain everything nicely not "you guys that ride ATVs are all the same, out of control and think you can do anything". That was the cops first exact words. That is not just disrespecting me it is disrespecting everyone that rides an ATV. Tell me you would let someone talk to you like that. If you do you have no integrity!!! and you are a coward. If they come up to me, explain what I was doing wrong in a nice manner I am cool and calm even if they hand me a ticket. If it is the other way around I will disrespect them right back. I don't like to be judged just because I am riding an ATV or driving a mustang at that. This is just my opinion, there is no need to bash a person for what they think is right when it is legitimate.

Stevie-D

06-27-2006, 11:17 AM

Of course the one had to get out running his mouth. Of course he had to get in my face telling me what he can all do to me and he can keep my 4 wheeler if he wanted. I told him he can make the payments I would go buy a new one.

reminds me of a story:devil: few months back i was dropping my buddy off at one of the local firehalls where he volunteers. i had just gotten my blue dodge, and it only had a magnaflow dual outlet muffler on it. so it was and still is obnoxiously loud:blah: i turned onto the road, and made an immediate left into the firehouse. well one of the local police cruizers is sitting out front. didnt romp on it, kick gravel, etc... turn my truck around, and the cop (ol guy, probably in his late 60s) pulls in front of my truck, partially blocking me in. i pull as close to him as i can get, and the old guy tells me to slow down with the truck "before he owns it". first off, i dont know if it was this guys time of the month or what, but he wasnt happy about something. he smirked at me when he said it. so i decided to be a smartass and reply by telling him for the right price it was for sale:blah: then i asked him if we could trade vehicles. he actually got a kick out of that and started laughing.

now i wounldn't condone being a smartass to the police. they've got enough bullchit to deal with. i'm on a firstname basis with several troopers around here, so therefore i can be a smartass to them, and vice versa. i got pulled over by the one one night because he was out of chew and all the gas stations were closed. gave him the rest of my can and went on my way.

ok, i'm done rambling...back to the subject:chinese:

Slinky

06-27-2006, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by juiced450r
Obviously you have never encountered a**hole cops before. In my county that is what they all are. I show them respect until I get disrespected. I do not let someone, cop or anyone get in my face and harass me when the situation can be a simple,"heres what you did wrong, I am going to have to give you a ticket", and actually explain everything nicely not "you guys that ride ATVs are all the same, out of control and think you can do anything". That was the cops first exact words. That is not just disrespecting me it is disrespecting everyone that rides an ATV. Tell me you would let someone talk to you like that. If you do you have no integrity!!! and you are a coward. If they come up to me, explain what I was doing wrong in a nice manner I am cool and calm even if they hand me a ticket. If it is the other way around I will disrespect them right back. I don't like to be judged just because I am riding an ATV or driving a mustang at that. This is just my opinion, there is no need to bash a person for what they think is right when it is legitimate.
you are right about the respect, they need to show everyone respect and not be saying things like "all you ATV riders are alike" i have ran into A-holes and good ones, i get pissed off about it but whats that going to do for you? Lots of times it will put you in a worse off place than you started in.

Punk'd

06-27-2006, 11:47 AM

That should have never happened.. The cop shouldnt of grabbed the rack.. He should have grabbed the kid. Or better yet.. He shouldnt of attempted to stop a quad from moving.

Quad vs Man..

Poor kid was prob just scared, but he shouldnt have took off in the first place. He should of just accepted the ticket or w/e.

I agree with others.. Some of the story is missing.

sly400ex

06-27-2006, 12:03 PM

Wow..if he did truly drag behind for nearly a mile, he shouold've sustained some serious injuries....

Something just doesn't sound right.....I'm not one to point my figure so quickly at the police but this story I don't have any other feelings that it had to be 90% PD's fault.

Sorry if I offend the police officers here, but this is just outrageous!

Chef

06-27-2006, 12:04 PM

If it truly dragged him nearly a mile-he would be in no physical shape to even get to his gun. He would be so beat up in a few hundred feet he couldnt have hung on. Pretty good flaw right there in the medias attempt at making a big story out of this.

Second-Honestly, could someone explain to me why the first thing an officer today goes for is his gun? If I were that cop...I would probably have let go and resumed the pursuit, something the other officer should have done anyway. The chances that it was a coincedence that the shot struck the man in the back of the head are slim...look how much more surface area there is on his back to hit. The first post said something about a rack-if it was a utility quad he couldnt have accelerated very hard. It would have been easy to jump onto the quad itself and subdue the man without lethal force.

Chef

06-27-2006, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by sly400ex
Wow..if he did truly drag behind for nearly a mile, he shouold've sustained some serious injuries....

Ha, I agree!:blah:

ak_stick

06-27-2006, 12:36 PM

Dont run from the law.

If the officer grabs your vehicle, dont try and drag him, or knock him off.

I gotta say though, in todays world, cops get shot all the time, and when people just jet while your talking to them, thats an awfuly big statement in most cases. Esp if they thought they were dealing with a dangerous person.

I feel bad for the kid, but at the same time, that was a stupid move. We dont have enough info to judge the officer at this time, and for all we know, he may well have gotten his hand or jacket stuck in the rack. And dragged along.

At any rate, he found himself being drug behind a motor vehicle, at a high rate of giddy up and shot the suspect. I dont see anything wrong with that.

Vertical Smile

06-27-2006, 12:39 PM

Shot him.............sure, but in the head?? The cop should be put up on Murder charges.

jcv400ex

06-27-2006, 12:40 PM

Okay tough guy......:rolleyes: You probably look like a smartass kid, that's why the cop is an *** to you. And if the cop is being an ***.....being an *** back is not going to do anything but piss him off.......bite your tongue and you'll be in alot less trouble.

I don't care who you are or who you think you are, deep down you aint as tough as you type on the keyboard.....:blah:

ak_stick

06-27-2006, 12:49 PM

Murder? Are you kidding me?

You ever fire a gun under those kinds of stresses?

We dont know from what angle, he fired, or if he had time to aim.

I'm willing to bet he just drew and fired, because he was being drug behind that quad.

when you fire your weapon, you dont shoot to wound, you shoot to end the threat. This is beat into you from the very first time a cop or a soldier touches a weapon. That cop did everything right.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 01:14 PM

I just love you bashers that get off on being rude for no reason. I post my opinion and here you guys come running to make yourselves look like asses. I never said all cops are bad, they have a job to do to. I am just saying some take it to far. I have a few friends that are cops. After my incident with the 2 officers from my first post I went to get my 450R out of impound. When I got there the nice officer was there releasing it. I even apoligized to him and told him I got a little out of hand, which I admit I did. I told him I am usually a very calm person but I don't like being disrepected or discriminated because I ride an ATV. He even said he had a talk with the other officer afterwards and told him he was out of hand. We shook hands and went our separate ways. I never said I was a tough guy I just stand up for what I believe in!! Basically what it boils down to is I don't know you and you don't know me, so why are you bashing??? Who looks like the smartass kid now.

BLEEDRED

06-27-2006, 01:39 PM

I never said all cops are bad...

No, no you didn't. But you did say...

Obviously you have never encountered a**hole cops before. In my county that is what they all are.

Just ALL in your county!!

That's painting with broad strokes buddy!!

I'm not here to argue with you, just pointing out that your view of athority could be a bit unreasonable. Keep your head up, mouth shut and respect athority as much as you see fit for the situation. I can respect your desire to stick up for yourself. Just don't forget that any cop can probably find a reason to ticket almost anybody at any time. Carry on...

Cole Trane

06-27-2006, 01:52 PM

All the cop had to do was let go of the atv and pursue the guy by other means. From what I got, the cop wasn't in any danger other than holding onto a fleeing atv. Why didn't he just let go? He obviously wasn't hung up on the quad, the artivle would have mentioned that.

Regardless, sounds like the cop had something to prove. I don't have a problem with cops, not one bit. But EVERYONE knows, there are some cops out there that think they are gods gift to law enforcement and that they are invincible. And they'll do anything to prove it. A gun should be pulled ONLY WHEN THEIRS OR SOMEONE ELSES LIFE IS IN DANGER. There may be some other situation, I don't know, I'm not a cop. But it seems to me that deadly force was not needed here.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Cole Trane
All the cop had to do was let go of the atv and pursue the guy by other means. From what I got, the cop wasn't in any danger other than holding onto a fleeing atv. Why didn't he just let go? He obviously wasn't hung up on the quad, the artivle would have mentioned that.

Regardless, sounds like the cop had something to prove. I don't have a problem with cops, not one bit. But EVERYONE knows, there are some cops out there that think they are gods gift to law enforcement and that they are invincible. And they'll do anything to prove it. A gun should be pulled ONLY WHEN THEIRS OR SOMEONE ELSES LIFE IS IN DANGER. There may be some other situation, I don't know, I'm not a cop. But it seems to me that deadly force was not needed here.

Thank you, glad to here from someone with some sense :) You hit the nail on the head.

Quad18star

06-27-2006, 02:16 PM

Evade the cops and you pay the price . The smart thing for the guy to do would have been to sit there , shut up and take the ticket ( or maybe even a warning) . It doesn't matter if the cop was hanging on or was somehow stuck on the ATV , his life was in danger and he acted upon the threat .

Like it was said earlier, when put in that situation you don't have time to think about where you're aiming . And for whoever said Utility ATVs don't accelerate that quickly , go try and hang onto the back of one and see what happens . Doesn't take long to reach 50 or 60 mph .

Cole Trane

06-27-2006, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Quad18star
Evade the cops and you pay the price . The smart thing for the guy to do would have been to sit there , shut up and take the ticket ( or maybe even a warning) . It doesn't matter if the cop was hanging on or was somehow stuck on the ATV , his life was in danger and he acted upon the threat .

BS His life WAS NOT in danger. What would you do? Hmmmmm, I could struggle for my gun and try to shoot the guy, or, I could just let go and make chase. How in the hell is what that cop did, right? I know a lot of people on here know some cops and are miltary and blah blah blah. HELL I AM FRIENDS WITH COPS AND I WAS IN THE MILITARY!!!! But I won't stick up for a cop that, from what the story says, acted incorrectly. His "heroics" killed a man.

Do you think it would be alright if the cop jumped on the back of a car that he pulled over for speeding and shot the person in the head?

ak_stick

06-27-2006, 02:29 PM

No, a dumb *** evading arrest got himself shot. Had he stopped, and faced his punishment like an adult, he'd still be alive.

He was foolish, tried to run from the cops, and dragged an officer behind his ATV.

End result, he died.

Cole Trane

06-27-2006, 02:33 PM

So it's alright to shoot someone for running from the cops???? That's it, just running. Not attempting to harm or mame the cop, just running. If you say he was dragging the cop, then think about the fact that the cop could've let go.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 02:37 PM

It is really unbelievable some of you actually think the cop was in the right. What is wrong with society today. If he was stuck on the ATV he could have shot a tire or something. Man vs ATV= man loses. He should not have tried to be the hero. He should have jumped in his car and pursued him. The kid could not have been going that fast. How could anyone pull a gun and shoot it while being drug behind an ATV at 50 0r 60 mph. I dont see it being possible. This is not the movies. Actually sit and picture it in your head. Think about it do you really think he could have done that. He almost had to be standing up. My deepest sympathies go out to the family of the boy.

ak_stick

06-27-2006, 02:38 PM

Last time I checked, being dragged behind a vehicle, is assualt with a deadly weapon. And we still dont know the specifics as to if the cop was holding on to, or being drug by the atv.

Yes, I think the cop was justified in shooting the idiot.

I feel bad for the kids family, but maybe they should have raised him better. If he'd acted like an adult, and stayed in one place he'd still be alive.

Kinda like people who dont wear helments on super bikes, or do drugs, yeah it sucks they died. But if they made thier choice, now they have to deal with the results.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 02:42 PM

Hey man from what you just said maybe you should have been raised a little better with a few more morals.

Cole Trane

06-27-2006, 02:42 PM

Not a cop dude. I don't know. I just think cops get away with a lot in this society, and there isn't much done about it. There are a lot of good cops out there, but there some bad ones too. To say this cop was either one would be stupid because we don't know. But in my opinion (from what the story said), he acted incorrectly and it cost someone their life.

ak_stick

06-27-2006, 02:46 PM

Why because my parents raised me with more sense to try and run from the cops? And more sense than to endanger an officer with my actions?

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
OK! Have you ever even shot a pistol? Even if you have, have you ever shot one while being DRAGGED?

Yeah, and it would have been pretty hard to hit him in the head, but it would have been even harder to do it on accident.

I dare you to go to the range, lay down in front of a target, close your eyes and fire one round. You'd be pretty ******* lucky if you hit the bullseye.

Besides, think about this. The quad had to be moving under 30MPH or the guy would have fallen off, no doubt. It was a ute, so lets say max speed is 45. At 45MPH it would still take over a minute to travel a mile. By then his arms would have been way too tired to reach down with ONE HAND, unbolt his holster, pull his weapon, and fire a round. Plus, he did it all without dropping the gun.

Now lets look at it from the runners perspective. The fellow had a cop hanging from his grab bar. In that situation I would see two options. Stop and surrender, or try to shake the guy by going through some woods, rocks, bumbs, whatever. Hell, swing the back end around and make him hit a tree... Just loose him. How many of you would simply keep going like nothing was happening in a situation like that?

I think the poor guy chose option number one, and when he stopped the cop was so pissed off that he capped him.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 03:03 PM

Yeah he forced the moron to grab his bike and hang on. The next article they will say the kid wrapped his arms up on the quad. Yes cops get away with a lot in society cause they can cover it up. Who will be believed 2 cops or 1 young kid. It is just the system. He will get a smack on the hand and maybe suspended for a week. Hell one of our local cops left his police dog at his house for 2 weeks when he was out of town with no food, little water, in a small kennel. They found it about dead. He got suspended for 2 weeks and is now back on the force. The article in the paper said he forgot about the dog being there and there was no foul play. Yeah I would forget my dog that spends everyday with me at my house. PETA filed a case on him but they found him not guilty. If that was a normal person they would be in jail. Cops have one up on us. They are not all bad though, I have 2 friends that are cops.

ak_stick

06-27-2006, 03:05 PM

Oh yeah, I'm gonna trust a kid who runs from the cops over a sworn officer. Riiiiiight.

at less than 5 feet, I'm pretty sure I can hit you with a pistol just about every time.

Modern holsters are very fast to draw from, and he was only shooting about what? 5-6 feet max more like 3.

I have used my pistol all of once under stress. I fired a total of 4 rounds, and it was a draw and fire, no time for reaction. All 4 rounds hit.

Its fairly easy, you remeber your training and go with it. Thats exactly what happened. I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the guy was shot as he was dragging the cop.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 03:10 PM

If you have a quad go out and lay down with your hand on the grab bar. Now act like you were going to shoot the rider. It is hard enough to do on my lowered 450r not moving but imagine a raised utility going 30mph - 40mph. He would have had to of been hanging on with 2 hands. No way he could have reached over the racks and shot him moving that fast. I smell foul play!!! I agree with ILIKETOOGOFAST He would have had to been standing.

MOFO

06-27-2006, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
Last time I checked, being dragged behind a vehicle, is assualt with a deadly weapon.

Thats enough reason for me.

The kid should have stopped. End of discussion until more details surface.

ak_stick

06-27-2006, 03:20 PM

Dude, I'd bet you money I could do it.

you panicked, your adrenaline is gonna be skyrocketd, and your going to be able to do things you normaly could not.

If you cant see how a guy could point a pistol over the rack of a quad, and hit the driver, remember now, we dont know how many times he fired, with one round, then I'm sorry, but you dont have a clue.

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
Oh yeah, I'm gonna trust a kid who runs from the cops over a sworn officer. Riiiiiight.

at less than 5 feet, I'm pretty sure I can hit you with a pistol just about every time.

Modern holsters are very fast to draw from, and he was only shooting about what? 5-6 feet max more like 3.

I have used my pistol all of once under stress. I fired a total of 4 rounds, and it was a draw and fire, no time for reaction. All 4 rounds hit.

Its fairly easy, you remeber your training and go with it. Thats exactly what happened. I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the guy was shot as he was dragging the cop.

Okay, so even if the round did hit him in the head on accident, how in the hell did he hold on to the quad with one arm for that long after being dragged for over a minute straight?

And you can't explain why the kid just kept rolling instead of trying to loose him in the brush and whatnot. Just think what you would do if you were in the situation.

Another thing is, why would the cop have tried to hang on there anyways? Why didn't he hop in his car? Why didn't he just shoot a tire? Why didn't he just let go when the guy didn't stop? I was under the belief that police were to shoot only when the suspect poses a direct threat to someone else or himself...

Too bad we won't ever see any trajectory tests. They probably won't even take a look at the guy, let alone investigate. That's the only thing that's going to prove me wrong.

06-27-2006, 03:22 PM

i dont get it...kids and adults run from the cops everyday (right or wrong) and they are NEVER (until this moment) EVER shot in the head (prove me wrong by finding another article and i'll delete my post)

thats terrible!! shooting someone in the head, unless its a fu*king terrorist or drug dealer is just wrong

the kid panicked and ran, just like most would do.

what the articles describes is all in favor or the fleeing boy. it is clearly the cops fault. plenty of things couldve been done to prevent the cop from shooting the kid in the head

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by MOFO
Thats enough reason for me.

The kid should have stopped. End of discussion until more details surface.

The guy didn't tie him to his bumper. The cop should have let go.

I'm done arguing about it though, cause noone will really know until more evidence comes up, and it won't...

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by juiced450r
If you have a quad go out and lay down with your hand on the grab bar. Now act like you were going to shoot the rider. It is hard enough to do on my lowered 450r not moving but imagine a raised utility going 30mph - 40mph. He would have had to of been hanging on with 2 hands. No way he could have reached over the racks and shot him moving that fast. I smell foul play!!! I agree with ILIKETOOGOFAST He would have had to been standing.

Lol dude... Did you actually go out and give it a try?

MOFO

06-27-2006, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
The cop should have let go.

... oh sorry, I didnt know YOU were there and saw the entire thing. :rolleyes:

Like I said, lets wait for the full report before any conclusions are drawn. I can't believe the number of people that take sides of the criminal so quickly. Its pretty sad IMO.

06-27-2006, 03:30 PM

poor guy........

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by MOFO
... or sorry, I didnt know YOU were there and saw the entire thing. :rolleyes:

Like I said, lets wait for the full report before any conclusions are drawn. I can't believe the number of people that takes sides of the criminal so quickly. Its pretty sad IMO.

Well it's like I said... Nobody knows until we get more info, which we won't. I don't know because I wasn't there, only two people were and one of them is dead... There's only one guy that knows anything about it and if he DID do something wrong, he had all kinds of time to think up a story before he had to talk to anybody about it.

It isn't people taking sides with a criminal, it's people taking sides with a victim. I'm not saying he wasn't a criminal, he ran from the cops.... But that's why people are siding with him. Cause he's the one that's dead.

Quad18star

06-27-2006, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
The cop should have let go.

Actually the kid should have obeyed the law and stopped and none of this would have happened .

Follow the law and you'll be alright . Drag a cop and suffer the end results . Simple as that .

MOFO

06-27-2006, 03:45 PM

FYI - Both threads about this topic have been merged. No reason for two threads.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
Dude, I'd bet you money I could do it.

you panicked, your adrenaline is gonna be skyrocketd, and your going to be able to do things you normaly could not.

If you cant see how a guy could point a pistol over the rack of a quad, and hit the driver, remember now, we dont know how many times he fired, with one round, then I'm sorry, but you dont have a clue.

Not at 30-40mph. No way. He would have to use both hands to hang on at that speed. Yeah I am sure you do have a clue. You have been in that situation before haven't you. Your adrenaline just makes you think you can do things you normally can not. I can't get an adrenaline rush and pick up a car. You need to sit down and think a little harder.

juiced450r

06-27-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Lol dude... Did you actually go out and give it a try?

hell yes. I just dont think it could have happened like that.

AL Elks

06-27-2006, 07:24 PM

Once again the facts are not in. Who ever said he was holding on to the quad. Have you ever seen a cops utility belt. There are a number of things that could have got caught on the quad as the officer was trying to stop the kid.

This thread is starting to sound like a Jerry Springer show.

It's "THE MAN"S falt no matter what went down. Let's automatically blame it on "THE MAN".

I dont' have the answer but if the cop got caught up on the quad and was being dragged and he feared for his life then he did the right thing.

Let's just wait and see how this plays out. :D

TheFontMaster

06-27-2006, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by juiced450r
Not at 30-40mph. No way. He would have to use both hands to hang on at that speed. Yeah I am sure you do have a clue. You have been in that situation before haven't you.

Yes at 30-40 MPH you can hang onto the back of a quad with one hand. A couple years ago by acident I draged one of my friends behind my 300ex. he was hanging on with one hand, and I was going 30 MPH. But it was only for about 30 feet, not a mile. Having said that I will bring up another point. Even though he was draging behind my quad, I didn't know he was draging untill I actualy looked back. I didn't feel the extra wieght. There is a good chance that the guy riding the quad had no idea the cop was even draging behind him. Also my friend ended up with some decently bad road rash, so I can only imagine what kind of condition the cop was in after a mile long drag. There is no way that he could have hung on that long by himself. If the quad did go a mile I would bet that he was actualy stuck to the quad.

The other thing even though it was a ute, 30-40 mph is still slow. Granted that speed is the range that the cop could have been hanging on, but utes, especial the new ones go atleast 55, and as fast as 70. The guy was running from the cops, I doubt he would only be going 30-40. If I was running from the cops I would have that throttle held to the stop. Which would be atleast another 10 mhp at the minimum, faster than he was going.

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 08:58 PM

Well I'm not putting a total blame on the cop... I just think that the situation should have been handled differently by both parties.

I do think the cop is more at fault than the kid. You can't deny it - The cop walked out of the situation, the kid didn't. I don't think there was any way the cop coulda been caught up which means his life wasn't in danger.

But we won't know the real story until more news breaks, and like I said this was probably a fleeting story that won't be mentioned again. It may be important to us, but nobody else cares. They probably won't even investigate, like I said, because it was a cop who shot him. Lot's of times they don't question the officer's word, even if the situation was suspicious.

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by TheFontMaster
Yes at 30-40 MPH you can hang onto the back of a quad with one hand. A couple years ago by acident I draged one of my friends behind my 300ex. he was hanging on with one hand, and I was going 30 MPH. But it was only for about 30 feet, not a mile. Having said that I will bring up another point. Even though he was draging behind my quad, I didn't know he was draging untill I actualy looked back. I didn't feel the extra wieght. There is a good chance that the guy riding the quad had no idea the cop was even draging behind him. Also my friend ended up with some decently bad road rash, so I can only imagine what kind of condition the cop was in after a mile long drag. There is no way that he could have hung on that long by himself. If the quad did go a mile I would bet that he was actualy stuck to the quad.

The other thing even though it was a ute, 30-40 mph is still slow. Granted that speed is the range that the cop could have been hanging on, but utes, especial the new ones go atleast 55, and as fast as 70. The guy was running from the cops, I doubt he would only be going 30-40. If I was running from the cops I would have that throttle held to the stop. Which would be atleast another 10 mhp at the minimum, faster than he was going.

Yeah, but do you really think it was new? I bet it was an old clunker.

TheFontMaster

06-27-2006, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Yeah, but do you really think it was new? I bet it was an old clunker.

What would make you think it's an old clunker? There is nothing to sugest that it was old. Again nothing to sugest it was newer. But there are alot more newer quads out there than the old clunkers. Also he was on the road, trying to get away from a cop. If he had any common sence(I know he's ran from the cop which is stupid) he would have known that there was no way he could get away on a quad that only goes 30-40 mph.

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 09:19 PM

The age of the bike doesn't really matter, it was just something to wonder about.

So why wouldn't the cop have just jumped in his car and followed him, called backup and waited it out? Even if he tried to escape into a field, they would catch him... They would have sent choppers, since they thought he was some big, bad fugitive...

They did that once near my house - A guy escaped into a corn field with a bunch of cocaine and they had cop cars on the road and they eventually spotlighted him with the chopper... No escape, and everybody came out alive.

I just don't see this guy's pursuit - even if he was a fugitive - worth a life. I can't weigh the positives and negatives.

CBRSLIDER

06-28-2006, 03:34 AM

Wow!!!!! Amazing what happens when you are away for a couple hours. The topic has morphed in so many different ways. New information is being argued that I never heard before. Decisions of guilt are being made before the facts are even out. All because of some preliminary news reports that have been released.

The ironic thing is that the media gets two thumbs up for this article. They normally are anti-police as I stated before but they are also normally anti-atv. This to them seems to be a win-win situation. They can pit against each other the two entities that they normally give bad press to. AND ITS WORKING.

Now to address some of the comments made directly to me.

"And your comment on people just being a man and owning up to their crime. I think is pretty arrogant and demonstrates the attitude of all police within our country."

No this is not a police attitude, this is the attitude that responsible adults should embrace. It is called being a respectable person. Having self-dignity, self-pride, and respect for the laws that protect us. There is way too much scape-goating(if that's a word) when it comes to admitting that you did something wrong. ie..."but the crime wasn't serious, but everyone's doing it, I was drunk, your just picking on me," or plain ole "it wasn't me." This is an attitude that should be instilled in our children. To take responsibility for OUR actions, not blame shift or try to deny what we did.

"Maybe this is a wake up call to all police officers to understand that you are human and you do make mistakes, just be a man and own up to your mistakes and stop destroying lifes."

As stated above, owning up to their crime is the same as me owning up to making a mistake. I own up to making a mistake. For some it's really hard to say they were wrong, but I don't have that problem. See you label people into groups, that is where you are missing the point here.

"our great CSI teams"

This isn't Miami, Las Vegas, or NYC. CSI teams are not like the television puts them out to be. Unfotunately they are alot more scaled back and not as sophisticated as portrayed on television.

"I've been in this same senario and the way I see it is the only mistake the ATV rider made was that he stopped. He should've never stopped and just kept on going to nearest trail head and be gone."

I had a parent say this to their son who stopped for us. This is the most foolish thing that I have ever heard. Risk the life of the atv'r, the officer, and the rest of the public because you are not man enough to stop and admit you were wrong. Guess the citation is just too much for you to handle, so avoiding it is worth more than the lives of all involved.

"I'm not condoning or saying it's okay to elude police when they are in pursuit of you. It's not. You should stop co operate with police say as little as possible, get your ticket and be on your way."

This is a complete contradiction of your above statement.

"Do you remember the days when you could get pulled over for a DWI and the local police officer would tell you to go home or I'm going to arrest you. Do you remember: when if a kid was riding his unregistered dirt bike down the road you took him home to his parents and they did more to the kid than courts."

Yep I remember them and try to be as understanding as I possible can. If you knew me you would understand that I am as fair a person as you can possible find. Just shagged some kids home to their parents the other night for riding on the road. Glad I didn't stick around to see what happend to them.

"Today if you pull a guy over that may have had a few drinks, it's destroy his life. "

I'd rather "destroy" his life than let him destroy someone elses life.

"What we need in this country is to stop electing politicians that lie, lawyers and police officers who come up with new laws every day that are being misinterpretted to work to the advantage of the legal system."

Please don't lump me in with lawyers. We are on the opposite sides of the law and very rarely agree. Saying we work to the advantage of the legal system, is a sign of a misinformed person.

"I think we need to get rid of half the police jobs we have today."

Could you expand on why you made this comment? Half the time I get chewed out by the public because I don't get to their call quick enough, so I attempt to explain that there are only a couple guys covering an area the side of Rhode Island, here where I work. Their response is then that we need more police officers. So who's right? You? Them?

"And jokingly just plain get rid of all Lawyers."

Amen!

"So Ray don't deny it. You know exactly what I'm talking about. If police would just focus more on the serious crimes that the general public wants solved and maybe back off a little on the less serious crimes that don't really mean much to begin with maybe the American people wouldn't carry those Anti this and that attitudes that you spoke of."

No I don't know what you are talking about. You seem to have a preconceived notion of what a police officer is and no matter what the article would have said on tv or in the newspaper, you still would have been against the police. And who am I to pick and choose what laws to enforce and what ones not to enforce. What may be less serious to you may be very serious to the next person. Both of who "pay my wages." Wish ya all could kick in a little more, I need a raise.

"If I'm not mistaken there's a little document call the Constitution of the United States that provides us as civilians to pursue a life of liberty and happiness."

I'm all for it but without laws and their enforcement there would be no pursuit of liberty or happiness. Your right to the pursuit of liberty and happiness cannot infringe upon that of the next person. Especially if your pursuit of it is through an illegal means.

I think that I covered everything I needed to.

I have seen this topic get completely away from what it orginally began as. I reiterate that there was a major tragedy that took place the other night. Unfortunately there are people that have already jumped to conclusions as to what took place that night. We do not have the facts and until they are there don't condemn the police. It's normal for the press to condemn the police but we as a society should be smart enough to understand that there are two sides of each story. So until everything comes to light, why make hasty decisions. It shows short sightedness on your part.

Once again God Bless all parties involved. I have never been in either's shoes but know that it is difficult for all involved. I have almost shot somebody and know that just being put through that experience was very difficult.

Thanks for reading.

Ray

BTW- where did the "fact" that the officer grabbed the atv and held on for 1 mile come from? I don't care how tough you are, an atv that is injuring and dragging you for a mile is going to sap every bit of strength out of you well before a mile, causing you to fall off. The reports that I have heard is that the officer became accidentally hooked to the atv and was dragged. You ever see the stuff hanging on a standard gun belt? Alot of things there that could get hooked on the rack and drag you along for an unwanted ride.

CBRSLIDER

06-28-2006, 03:43 AM

"Police aren't supposed to shoot in the head, even if they have to shoot the suspect."

Where do you get your information??? Do you know what my department's Standard Operating Procudure is when it comes to shooting a suspect??? How about my department's force continuum is? Our department policy on the use of deadly force?

The answer is NO.

Ray

popo

06-28-2006, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by Quad18star
Actually the kid should have obeyed the law and stopped and none of this would have happened .

Follow the law and you'll be alright . Drag a cop and suffer the end results . Simple as that .

I agree. I would have done the same if put in the same situation.

like Ray said. The topic has morphed in so many different ways.

skyhighatv

06-28-2006, 06:44 AM

i hate cops.-i had many friends that became cops-had

Rocketman80

06-28-2006, 07:11 AM

It's pretty obvious that you're going to side with your Police Buddies CBRSLIDER or other police officers. If you all stick together and back each other up. Listen, I don't know where you live but I can tell you exactly how things work around here in Western New York and specially the southern tier counties. It's called the good ole boy system around here and if you're not one of them, then they will do to you what they please. Our local police chief and his wife use to sit at our bar in our town and drink liquior all night long get in there car and drive home. Everyone knew including the State and County police departments but I can assure you that he never got a DWI. So don't make out like there isn't a double standard for police and for civilians, the hard truth is yes you do have a double standard. Hmmm let me see what do they call that professional curtousy. I labled people in groups because the police have made the clear distinction between what they can do and what civilians can do. If you want to know the truth being a police officer is a very difficult job and not everyone is cut out for it. You can't shape someone into it. It's something that's in you. You either are or you aren't and the problem is that law enforcement is hiring geeks to be police officers. And what happens when you give a geek a little bit of power or authority. Well I think you see where I'm headed with this.
Addressing your comment that I put you in with lawyers not so. What I said was when a civilian goes to court we sit in a waiting room while the Police officer goes in the back door and talks directly to the judge and the D.A. Well why do you deserve any better treatment than anyone else and how as a civilian could I ever feel I was getting a fair deal when I watch you going in the judges chambers to tell him your thoughts and who do they always believe first. This legal system is a joke. Police have their own system they live by and civilians live by the hand of the law enforcement.
My contradiction was the difference between what I would do and what is the appropriate thing to do. Personally if I was on a ATV and cop tried to pull me over with a car, I would just boot scoot off into a wooded trail and be gone. If I'm not hurting anyone and on a back road just having some fun, I'm not going to stop for anyone. The problem here is and why it bothers you is that Police don't like anyone getting the better of you. It has an effect on your little ego's. And yes I turned around and contradicted myself because I know what the right thing to do is, to just stop, keep your mouth shut and say as little to the police officer as possible or they will use it against you, get your ticket and be on your way. More than likely though if I was running a unregistered vehicle on the road that I would end up in the back of police car with my ATV being confiscated. My personal choice is not to stop. I've out ran the police on so many occasions in many different types of vehicles and most of the time I don't even have to out run them that far. If I'm doing a 100 mph on my motorcycle, I'm not stopping to see what you have to say. The way I see it is it bothers you more that I got away than I feel anything about out running you.
As far as Police owning up to there mistakes...Ha... what planet are you on? I have never seen any police agency stand up and say, well we made a mistake and we're sorry. We were wrong and Joe Blow was right. No here's how it really works... You make an arrest, it goes out over all the news media who usually convicts the guy before he's even been arrained. The general public forms their opinion from the news broadcast which is usually a one sided story coming from the Police. I have yet to ever see the news media go after the Police unless you're talking about something that they can't avoid... I.E. Rodney King, and now this shooting. And even now the local news media has dampened there investigation and reports. I didn't one thing about it this morning. But hey they're still talking about Bucky Phillips around here. Who they don't know foresure shot a cop. But it sure makes for good media and sympathy towards police. Now why is it that when a cop gets shot we have to hear about it for two months straight on the news. But when a cops shoots a innocent civilian, why is it okay for the news media to just brush it under the rug.
I'm not saying we don't need law enforcement, I'm just saying you need get rid of the double standard. Police need to face the same consequences that civilians do when you do something wrong, but that will never be.
You contradicted yourself also. On one hand you say you just let a kid go the other night, took him to his parents. But on the other hand you turned around and said you would rather destroy the kids life than have them destroy someone else's. And who are you to decide what laws to enforce and which ones not too... So which is it? That's exactly what I'm talking about. Do I have hope that you're having a good day and won't give me a ticket or if you're not having a good day end up getting a hand full of tickets. HMmmm.
Let me just add a little something about our county in Western New York, It's a on going joke that if you're were going to commit a murder, do it in our county because they never solve anything. I know of obvious cases that should've been solved and everyone in the general public knows what happened, but it's funny how the Police can't figure it all out. Or why the DA won't prosecute. But hey as long as you catch that kid riding his mini bike down the back road you're doing your job. We need less traffic cops and start solving the more serious crimes. You mean to tell me the police can't determine which crimes are more severe than others and deserve closer attention. This is why I'm saying our Legal and Judicial system is a mess.
To answer your question about my predetermined opinion of Police. Absolutely yes. I do have a predetermined opinion of Police. But it has all been caused by your actions. Not anything you've done to me... Just to fast for ya's copper....LOL :P~~~~ This can stop... I feel sad for both parties involved in this unfortunate situation. CBRSLIDER feel free to P.M. me if you want to talk more about it all. Take care...

LT80

06-28-2006, 07:42 AM

WOW!! GOD love the first amendment!!

This is what forums are for, to have discussions and see others views on things.
Food for thought.

"should have stopped" Of course that's the correct thing to do. This guy was a marine, I think he isn't/wasn't scared of police and surely may have stopped.

"take your ticket" Well that's not the case allways.
2 riders in nearby Ohio stopped for the police. Was threatened with a tazer,fined,impounded the quads, and then had to walk 3 miles in the rain home from the spot. I know these guys personnaly and I know that they did not cause any type of problem and was respectfull. Yet they got the bad cop ordeal.
In Pa. the police are NOT supposed to give chase to bikes/atv's. They think it causes deaths/injurys. Hmmmmmm....

Anyways, Like some said, we need to hear more.

Again, like some said, things just don't add up.
How did the cop get dragged? Could he have ever been dragged if the rider didn't stop first?

"believe a sworn officer" It's be nice to think that they don't lie. They do indeed lie (been there). I'm sure some are 100% honest.
I serviced a retired state trooper. He explained that on the lake fishing allowed him to forget things. Does a 100% honest officer need to forget anything?

2 facts, 1 opinion::
1) kid dead
2) we will never know the truth
1) the officer will come out of it smelling like a rose.

Mr. CB, please don't consider this a personall attack. I'm sure you and others are great officers.

I'm done till we do hear more info.

Iliketogofast

06-28-2006, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by CBRSLIDER
"Police aren't supposed to shoot in the head, even if they have to shoot the suspect."

Where do you get your information??? Do you know what my department's Standard Operating Procudure is when it comes to shooting a suspect??? How about my department's force continuum is? Our department policy on the use of deadly force?

The answer is NO.

Ray

Enlighten me. It was my understanding that they are to shoot only to disable the suspect.

fasterblaster09

06-28-2006, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by popo
I agree. I would have done the same if put in the same situation.

like Ray said. The topic has morphed in so many different ways.

yeh..we all know the guy forced the police officer to GRAB A MOVING ATV. :rolleyes: Half the people on here saying the guy deserved it have probably ran from the police on their quads one time or another. Just think if it just happened to be you to have a cop with no common sense to grab a moving quad, and he shot you? Now obviously he did the wrong thing by trying to run. But anyone in their right mind would know not to grab a ATV.

NorCalRacer

06-28-2006, 08:55 AM

If you were dragging a person however, would you still run? It is pretty messed up, but I am pretty sure it isn't as one-sided as people would like to think. We will never know the truth behind what happened but I know one thing, running from the police is an act of cowardice. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time because this is the real world and if you act like a jackass it will come back to bite you. I don't thing he should be shot for simply evading, but I also don't believe that a cop would want to kill a kid for evading either.
How do you think the cop feels? He might have children as well. I am sure something like this isn't pushed out of your head easily...

I am not saying the cop is in the right, but I have no evidence presented to me to show that he wasn't.

ak_stick

06-28-2006, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Enlighten me. It was my understanding that they are to shoot only to disable the suspect.

I'm pretty sure a round to the back of the head disabled him pretty effectively.

AL Elks

06-28-2006, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by fasterblaster09
Just think if it just happened to be you to have a cop with no common sense to grab a moving quad, and he shot you? .

Herein lies the rub. It would never happen to me because I have the balls/moral fortitude to take my lumps when I do something wrong. Something many individuals growing up these days don't have.

I was just talking to my wife last night telling here that I was going to take the LTR down a road near our house for a couple of runs to test the AFR with my LM-1 setup. We live in the country by the way. Now I've never ridden on the road with my quad in the past other than crossing it but if for some reason a police officer stops me and gives me a ticket then so be it. I'll respectfully own up to what I did and take my lumps.

Some people just want to go through life being a victim.

For those that say they have corrupt police officers where they live then like I said before get off your *** and do something about it (something legal that is). Be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Don't wait for someone else to do it because if you do it will never get done. Unfortunately most individuals who say they have corrupt police officers where they live don't have any proof and are just making assumptions.

There's a saying that fits here:

"Evil thrives when good men do nothing"

You know I'll add another comment here. A few years ago I was sitting in my house when I heard something going on out front. I went to the door and saw two cars parked in front of my house blocking both lanes. They guy was beating the crap out this girl. I grabbed my gun and had the wife call the cops. Well I yelled a few things I can't mention here to him about 3 times as I walked towards the road. After the 3rd time he finally heard me as he was in a total rage. Well he decided to step into my yard and approach me (still in a rage). I immediately pulled out my pistol and informed him "you don't to even think about it” Well he kept coming. I then jacked a round in the chamber and raised the pistol to shoulder height and repeated myself "I said you don't want to even think about it". Well he was in such a rage he just kept coming. I finally drew down and announced "One more step and you die where you fall". Well my wife was yelling at him the whole time that he had better stop or I would definitely shoot him. His friends and the girl he was beating also were yelling at him. Well he stopped but was still in a rage. Needless to say he didn't take another step.

Well the next day one of my neighbors makes the comment to my daughter that I shouldn't have gotten involved. If it had been my daughter I would sure have hoped someone would have gotten involved.

By the way he had just gotten out of prison for shooting into a house hitting a girl. He was in for 2 years. He was also violating his parole as he was out after dark. I of course went down the next day to file a report stating what I had seen. Not sure what happened to him but hopefully he went right back to jail.

Maybe it's just me but the attitude of many of today's youth just isn't what it used to be. There seems to be a lack of morals.

Anyway I'll stop venting now and see where this thread leads.

Iliketogofast

06-28-2006, 11:37 AM

I don't think we should talk about the morals that are involved, and how he would have been fine if he had just stopped. He would have came out in the same shape if he hadn't stopped at all.

AL Elks

06-28-2006, 11:46 AM

"I don't think we should talk about the morals that are involved, and how he would have been fine if he had just stopped. He would have came out in the same shape if he hadn't stopped at all."

I dont' follow what you are trying to say.

Of course it has to do with morals and doing the right thing. Also if he had stopped he would not have gotten shot.

Think about it, if he had the moral fortitude to take his lumps he'd be alive today.

popo

06-28-2006, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by fasterblaster09
yeh..we all know the guy forced the police officer to GRAB A MOVING ATV. :rolleyes: Half the people on here saying the guy deserved it have probably ran from the police on their quads one time or another. Just think if it just happened to be you to have a cop with no common sense to grab a moving quad, and he shot you? Now obviously he did the wrong thing by trying to run. But anyone in their right mind would know not to grab a ATV.

What report or first hand knowledge do you have stating he GRABBED the atv? NONE! The media told you! anything for a story.....

I recall he was drug for over a mile. He did'nt hang on for the amount of time! More than likely the kid was warned several times, he refused to stop.

NONE OF YOU WERE THERE!!!! OR HAVE BEEN IN OUR SHOES TO SEE WHAT WE AS POLICE OFFICERS DEAL WITH DAILY.

You complain about the court system. Trust me....us Police Officers complain just as much as the next person. Yes people screw up blah blah blah, the old saying do the crime do the time...Bull crap 99% of repeat quad thieves get probation.

Ray, I appauld you for stating your mind. Thou it's a no win situation for both of the parties involved.

juiced450r

06-28-2006, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by AL Elks
[
For those that say they have corrupt police officers where they live then like I said before get off your *** and do something about it (something legal that is). . [/B]

Yeah like that will work. Police are considered at a higher class than us even though most of them were complete scumbag dopehead idiots when they were younger and some still are. A lot of them just crave a sense of power and abuse it. You can't fight the police department. You will lose every time. You do something to a normal person you get a slap on the hand, you do something to an officer, on or off duty, you get the maximum sentence. Political Bullsh*t.

AL Elks

06-28-2006, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by juiced450r
Yeah like that will work. Police are considered at a higher class than us even though most of them were complete scumbag dopehead idiots when they were younger and some still are. A lot of them just crave a sense of power and abuse it. You can't fight the police department. You will lose every time. You do something to a normal person you get a slap on the hand, you do something to an officer, on or off duty, you get the maximum sentence. Political Bullsh*t.

Then you can only blame yourself. If you're not willing to make the sacrifice then live with it and stop complaining because you are part of the problem and not the solution.

ak_stick

06-28-2006, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by popo

NONE OF YOU WERE THERE!!!! OR HAVE BEEN IN OUR SHOES TO SEE WHAT WE AS POLICE OFFICERS DEAL WITH DAILY.

Simma down, your not the only one who has a hard job. Yes, there are bad cops out there, who put the good ones to shame, unfortunetly, the public likes to make a huge deal about the bad apples and under play the rest. And the fact that cops are so easily spun up, isn't helping your cause.

popo

06-28-2006, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by juiced450r
Yeah like that will work. Police are considered at a higher class than us even though most of them were complete scumbag dopehead idiots when they were younger and some still are. A lot of them just crave a sense of power and abuse it. You can't fight the police department. You will lose every time. You do something to a normal person you get a slap on the hand, you do something to an officer, on or off duty, you get the maximum sentence. Political Bullsh*t.

Do you think the officers on this list were scumbag dopehead idiots. http://www.odmp.org/year.php

juiced450r

06-28-2006, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
Then you can only blame yourself. If you're not willing to make the sacrifice then live with it and stop complaining because you are part of the problem and not the solution.

All I know is that if I was an officer I would be worrying more about real crimes and not petty crap. Hell 3 of my buddies in my neighborhood outran the cops about 2 months ago. It was during the day. They drive 2 blue Yamahas and a red honda. I have 2 red hondas and 1 black one. They were in my garage with the door open. He comes racing into my house just after they got away and jumps out and threatens to arrest me puts me in cuffs and told me he was going to take all my fourwheelers because I just outran him and asked me where my friends were. He said there was 2 red ones and a black one. He just wanted to make an arrest and was making **** up to do it. He had to be te hero. Then 3 other officers arrive on the seen a few minutes later. They sure felt like big jacka**es when they went and touched the motors considering I had not rode them all day. I tried to do something about them accusing me but got blown off like I was nothing!! I was told they were just doing there job. Obviously the officer in this case jumped the gun and wanted to be the hero and completely F*CKED up in the process.

juiced450r

06-28-2006, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by popo
Do you think the officers on this list were scumbag dopehead idiots. http://www.odmp.org/year.php

You don't know the story behind all of them. The death of anyone is sad and tragic but even more sad when it didn't have to happen. That kids life got cut short due to the officers foolishness and jumping to a conclusion. People die every day, not just police officers. I feel for the families of everyone. But to put police officers on a pedestal above everyone else is BS

fasterblaster09

06-28-2006, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by popo
What report or first hand knowledge do you have stating he GRABBED the atv? NONE! The media told you! anything for a story.....

Well how was he drug? And what evidence do you have saying he DIDN'T grab the ATV? NONE! .. and I dont think the guy would grab the police officer and pull him behind him, the point is to get away, not take him with you. I understand the police officer was trying to catch him or w.e, and I admire him, but he obviously has no common sense IF he grabbed the ATV ( which is most likely what happened, unless you can think of another possibility?) Im not here to argue with anyone, im just saying what I think, my opinion... And I know the guy wasn't right whther the polce officer grabbed the ATV or not, but he still didn't deserve to be shot in the head because the officer decided to be drug by the ATV.

skyhighatv

06-28-2006, 12:24 PM

i second that-B.S.

IM SORRY ALL YOU COPS GOT BEAT UP IN SCHOOL-NO NEED TO TAKE IT OUT ON THE GUY WITHOUT THE BADGE.

skyhighatv

06-28-2006, 12:25 PM

COUGH-COUGH-POWER TRIP!

juiced450r

06-28-2006, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by skyhighatv
i second that-B.S.

IM SORRY ALL YOU COPS GOT BEAT UP IN SCHOOL-NO NEED TO TAKE IT OUT ON THE GUY WITHOUT THE BADGE.

you took the words right out of my mouth. Yeah most had no self esteem when they were younger, got picked on in school, and just want to feel a sense of power and abuse it. Amen Brother

AL Elks

06-28-2006, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by juiced450r
All I know is that if I was an officer I would be worrying more about real crimes and not petty crap. Hell 3 of my buddies in my neighborhood outran the cops about 2 months ago. It was during the day. They drive 2 blue Yamahas and a red honda. I have 2 red hondas and 1 black one. They were in my garage with the door open. He comes racing into my house just after they got away and jumps out and threatens to arrest me puts me in cuffs and told me he was going to take all my fourwheelers because I just outran him and asked me where my friends were. He said there was 2 red ones and a black one. He just wanted to make an arrest and was making **** up to do it. He had to be te hero. Then 3 other officers arrive on the seen a few minutes later. They sure felt like big jacka**es when they went and touched the motors considering I had not rode them all day. I tried to do something about them accusing me but got blown off like I was nothing!! I was told they were just doing there job. Obviously the officer in this case jumped the gun and wanted to be the hero and completely F*CKED up in the process.

Once again always a victim.

You know if I shot someone in self defense and was holding two more off at gunpoint do you know what the police would do. They would take control of the situation, put me and everyone else in cuffs and try to figure out what happened and who was the perp and who was the victim. I would have ABSOLUTELY no problem with that. The first thing they have to do is protect others as well as themselves until they can figure out what's going on. In your case it looks like they figured it out with no problem so I guess the ones that showed up weren't *******s ?????????????

From the sound of things it looks you hang around with with the wrong crowd that has no problem breaking the laws and then trying to get away with it.

Let's see. Breaking a law = Illegal
Running from the Police = Illegal

Having friends like that = Not a smart decision on your part.

juiced450r

06-28-2006, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
[B]Once again always a victim.

You know if I shot someone in self defense and was holding two more off at gunpoint do you know what the police would do. They would take control of the situation, put me and everyone else in cuffs and try to figure thing out.

Let's see. Breaking a law = Illegal
Running from the Police = Illegal

]

Dude I am talking about ATV not Guns. If it were guns I would understand. ATVS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are losing this battle you might as well sign out!!

popo

06-28-2006, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by juiced450r
You don't know the story behind all of them.

He was my parnter.

http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=17538

ak_stick

06-28-2006, 12:36 PM

Dude, you lost the battle when you signed in.

He broke the law, endangerd the life of a law enforcement officer, and got his stupid punk *** shot.

Had he acted like an adult he'd still be alive.

Funny how the guys who cry the loudest are the ones who always make stupid choices and end up dealing with the law.

Yeah, Damn the Police, they're just power tripping!

I'm sure you two are just a couple of angels yourselves, always making life easy for the officer and everything.

Ever wonder why you get treated like a punk when you give a cop flak?

juiced450r

06-28-2006, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by popo
I do one of them. He was my parnter.

http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=17538

Ok I am not pointing fingers at anyone. I am sorry to here that and my sympathy goes out to his family. I am just saying my encounters and how I feel.

juiced450r

06-28-2006, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
.

and got his stupid punk *** shot.

Man obviously you are the punk talking about someone that just got killed because of mistaken identity. It is tragic. . You must be a real winner. Get a life PUNK!!!!!!!:grr:

ak_stick

06-28-2006, 12:52 PM

He wasn't shot because he had a case of mistaken identity, he was shot because he decided to run, and to drag a cop behind his quad.

Sorry, I have no tolerance for stupidity, I have to deal with enough of it every day.

Its not trajic I beleive you are look for the word tragic, and the real tragedy here is that he couldn't man up to it, and decided to run.

I hate to say it, but just like the darwin awards winners, he could have lived by being smarter. Stupid hurts.

AL Elks

06-28-2006, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by juiced450r
Dude I am talking about ATV not Guns. If it were guns I would understand. ATVS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are losing this battle you might as well sign out!!

There's no battle here. To me it's just plain old common sense..

LT80

06-28-2006, 04:57 PM

OMG!!!
The last page and 1/2 or so is exactly why threads get locked.

To the ones arguing::
This is why police have problems w/ppl.
This is why ppl have problems w/police.

The name calling is uncalled for..PERIOD!

3 facts are known at present.
1) the rider was a respected ex-marine
2) the shooter is a respected police officer.
3) we all need to respect each other more. Even if opinions vary.

Nobody knows if he stopped or not.
Nobody knows if the officers actions were warrented.

NO reason to argue over speculation. PLEASE!!!
OK,,GROUP HUG!!!

:D :D :D

Iliketogofast

06-28-2006, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
"I don't think we should talk about the morals that are involved, and how he would have been fine if he had just stopped. He would have came out in the same shape if he hadn't stopped at all."

I dont' follow what you are trying to say.

Of course it has to do with morals and doing the right thing. Also if he had stopped he would not have gotten shot.

Think about it, if he had the moral fortitude to take his lumps he'd be alive today.

But it works both ways: If he had the balls to just all out run instead of stopping first, he'd ALSO be alive today.

Iliketogofast

06-28-2006, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
Dude, you lost the battle when you signed in.

He broke the law, endangerd the life of a law enforcement officer, and got his stupid punk *** shot.

Had he acted like an adult he'd still be alive.

Funny how the guys who cry the loudest are the ones who always make stupid choices and end up dealing with the law.

Yeah, Damn the Police, they're just power tripping!

I'm sure you two are just a couple of angels yourselves, always making life easy for the officer and everything.

Ever wonder why you get treated like a punk when you give a cop flak?

Why do you think he endangered the life of the cop? He might not have even known the cop was hanging on, and the cop could have let go at any time.

NorCalRacer

06-28-2006, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
But it works both ways: If he had the balls to just all out run instead of stopping first, he'd ALSO be alive today.

I thought running was a sign of having NO balls. I've never heard of a brave person "running" away from a situation they help to create.

AL Elks

06-28-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by NorCalRacer
I thought running was a sign of having NO balls. I've never heard of a brave person "running" away from a situation they help to create. \

EXACTLY! It's also a sign of STUPIDITY!

Iliketogofast

06-28-2006, 08:00 PM

Under a different context, that is absolutely true. Don't even start to say he wouldn't have been better off had he not stopped at all. He would still be alive to this day, and it is absolutely IGNORANT and NAIVE to think otherwise. You're too full of your all-American **** to see past it, but it's the truth.

I'm done with this thread, I'm not going to argue with you because there's no point to it. You wouldn't listen to a word I say here or otherwise, and I refuse to ramvble on just to be contradicted. It seems like I'm the only one who thinks it's wrong that this man is dead, and I refuse to be victimised because of it.

NorCalRacer

06-28-2006, 08:51 PM

:rolleyes: :confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

Everyone's a victim these days....

It sucks he's dead, but he dug his own hole. And how are you a victim? Opposing viewpoints are not acts of victimization...

Iliketogofast

06-28-2006, 09:05 PM

The 2 or 3 guys that keep posting are basically picking on me. Every time I say something, they dissect and contradict it piece by piece. Just like now, when I said I was being victimized and you contradicted me.

So I'll change the wording to make you happy - I'm being stigmatized.

And just so you know, victimized is a broad term. If you want to be technical, I AM being made into a victim of defamation.

But like I said, from now on I'm going to sit back and watch until the thread gets locked or dies (which will be soon). I'm not going to be a part of it anymore, so you can have the last word if you want it. Enjoy.

GIXXER1KR

06-28-2006, 10:35 PM

Any more facts!Its just not adding up.An officer dragged for 1 mile behind an atv with minor cuts and bruises!!!!Im neutral because i wasnt there!!There has to be a way of investigating and seeing several factors!!Gun fire on the victim...entry wound,,, who knows.I don't know????Way too many factors.If u play you pay!!!For sure but theres way more to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:confused:Can we end this thread until someone has some real evidence!**** off already!Good cop.Bad guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Over and over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

ak_stick

06-28-2006, 11:21 PM

The only thing making you a victim is your own ignorance.

Ofcorse we're contradicting you and tearing your argument apart is that not the POINT of debating an issue?

And no, your not a victim of defamation, defamation is the communication of false information with the intent to keep others from dealing with you. That hasn't happened at all.

It takes no balls to try and run from the cops, infact its a lack of balls and the unwillingness to face the results of your actions.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 12:02 AM

The thread needs to be closed.

By the way, I know what defamation means, moron. I don't need you to define the words that I use; If I didn't know what they meant I wouldn't use them in my sentences.

defamation

n 1: a malicious attack [syn: calumny, obloquy, traducement, hatchet job]

*******.

jrspawn

06-29-2006, 01:19 AM

Are you guys done with the childish debate? Please can this topic get back to being a discussion forum and not a personel bash party!!!

Thank you

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 05:52 AM

Actually I see this thread as a civil discussion. That is until you just called ak_stick a "MORON". Until now there would have been no reason to close this thread.

You are't being attacked. We are debating here. That's what's great about freedom of speech. There's nothing childish about what's been said here. It's great insight into seeing how others feel about a very tragic situation.

We do not have the facts yet and it's going to be interesting to see the outcome.

Now here's the big question. After all the investigation, if it comes back that the cop was at fault I can accept that. If it comes back that the cop was justified can you?

Rocketman80

06-29-2006, 07:41 AM

I seen the first couple News broadcasts for this story and it wasn't clear at the time how everything really went down. But what they did say is the young man that was shot and killed for riding his ATV was a Military Veteran (Marine Corp) and he had a family a wife and child. I see some of the people who are referring to this young man as punk who got what he deserved. So basically what you're saying is that it's okay to go and serve your country protecting all of us with his life probably in Iraq. And you think he's a PUNK? Why because he didn't want to get a ticket. Because he didn't respect the police by taking off. I didn't know that lack of respect for police or trying to run from them constitued a death sentence.
All the police officers responding here need to quit whining about your jobs and how dangerous they are and lack of the general publics cooperation. You see, police officers and their families don't have to worry about getting speeding tickets or getting the book thrown at them when they break the law or your insurance going up because your sixteen year old got pulled over for doing 8 m.p.h. over the speed limit. What the police don't take into consideration is when they pull someone over, they are about to effect this person life in a very dramatic way. Causing this person and there family monetary hardships for years to come and not to mention the fine and any other things that you all add on when you're writing up your tickets to make sure the one sticks. Maybe if you had to suffer the same consequences the general public does then you may have a more sympathetic view of the general public.
I'm just telling you this is your wake up call. The American people are sick of this Sh*t. I only hope to see police agencies budgets cut. Down size the huge police force we have patroling our communities. It's a waist of tax payers dollars that can be better spent to help people within our communities. I see more cop cars sitting at donut shops and corner stores. I mean come on get off your arsses and go to work. Go solve a serious crime and quit worrying about someone riding their ATV on a BACK ROAD not hurting anyone.
Everyone here is talking about the attitude that civilians have towards police. But I don't see anything here about the Attitude of the police towards civilians. Yah you know the people that live in your communities. You know the ones that pay your over paid salaries. I think maybe everyone should join the police force so we all can enjoy the same benefits that you all do.
Here's another fact. They never said the Police officers name who shot this young man. Geezsss.. if that was a civilian who shoots someone you're name would be plastered on the headline news for the month.
Now the Western New York News medias have completely dropped the story. Haven't heard a thing about it. It almost seems like propaganda being enforced by the police or DA. But they're still looking for their escaped fugitive. Well if the god dam police were doing their jobs in the first place the fugitive would've never gotten away and maybe this atv rider would still be alive.
For those who don't know there was an escaped fugitive from the Alden Correctional facility in Western New York. This guys been running loose for weeks and they think in his running that he shot a police officer 300 miles away. But they're looking for him in Western New York where this ATV rider was shot. Now the police have arrested the fugitives family on trumped up charges of aiding and abedding a fugitive. Which if the guy had one lick of commen sense, he wouldn't go anywhere near his family. I mean think about it. If you escaped from jail do you think you'd run right back home....
This whole thing makes me sick... Sick to think that I live in a country where the police want to suppress our people, it's not what our constitution was designed for. But if you ask a cop he'll tell you he's protecting those right for you. The police are miscontruing and manipulating laws to make them work for themselves. Until you're in the situation where you're family is effected by a police action you won't ever understand it. And escaped fugitive or any other reason doesn't give the police the right to run rough shot over everyone that gets in their way no matter what the reason. This is a free country and the American people want their freedom back.
What can we do? Talk to your Legislators, Congressmen and elected officials. Tell them what you want. If they don't do it. Don't vote for them.

LT80

06-29-2006, 08:38 AM

You guys still don't get it do ya!
To call others stupid, moron, etc. IS stupid and moronic!

Why would you guys go on and on about speculation?
How many marines you know that's scared of anything.
To call a man that has served his country names like you have is totally disrespectfull and uncalled for ESPECIALLY since WE do not know the facts!!!

I cannot say more w/o lowering myself to you guys standards.
Yes you deserved that!

Keep the thread open, ban the ppl arguing.:grr: :mad:

NorCalRacer

06-29-2006, 08:42 AM

I can't believe this thread. I don't know police? I got two tickets in 5 miles of eachother going to work. They were both completely fabricated. This cop gives everyone BS tickets and the judge and him are buddiesa so he gets away with it. I had a PERFECT record until this liar pulled me over. My neighbor who is a Highway Patrol agrees with me on my tickets being BS and everyone in my town hates the cop who gave me the tickets. So yeah, I stand up for all cops:rolleyes:
Everyone I'm sure has met a bad cop. Making the generalization that all cops are bad is ludicrous. I laugh at your stereotype of the donut-eating civilian hating cop. Maybe you should sit back and try to get some perspective on reality. I am not saying the cop in this case is right but when I have to choose between a cop acting like a cop and a marine acting like a criminal I'll have to give the benefit of the doubt to the cop until I learn otherwise.

NorCalRacer

06-29-2006, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by LT80
You guys still don't get it do ya!
To call others stupid, moron, etc. IS stupid and moronic!

Why would you guys go on and on about speculation?
How many marines you know that's scared of anything.
To call a man that has served his country names like you have is totally disrespectfull and uncalled for ESPECIALLY since WE do not know the facts!!!

I cannot say more w/o lowering myself to you guys standards.
Yes you deserved that!

Keep the thread open, ban the ppl arguing.:grr: :mad:

Cry me a river:rolleyes:

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 09:01 AM

QUOTE
I seen the first couple News broadcasts for this story and it wasn't clear at the time how everything really went down. But what they did say is the young man that was shot and killed for riding his ATV was a Military Veteran (Marine Corp) and he had a family a wife and child. I see some of the people who are referring to this young man as punk who got what he deserved. So basically what you're saying is that it's okay to go and serve your country protecting all of us with his life probably in Iraq. And you think he's a PUNK? Why because he didn't want to get a ticket. Because he didn't respect the police by taking off. I didn't know that lack of respect for police or trying to run from them constituted a death sentence.
END QUOTE

It’s evident that you just don’t get it. No one is saying that it’s not a tragedy. What they are saying is that it was a STUPID decision on his part to even think about running. Now with that said it’s evident that you have no clue as to what the background of some of the individuals you are talking to have. I myself retired from the military so I can definitely speak from that standpoint. I thank every person in the military for everything they sacrifice for our country. Now with that said I’ll educate you on something. The military is just like any other part of society. You have your good apples and you have your bad apples. Am I saying this guy was one of the bad apples? NO, I’m not! I’m saying that he made the WRONG decision which resulted in his death. Decisions have consequences and you’d better be prepared for them.

QUOTE
And you think he's a PUNK? Why because he didn't want to get a ticket. Because he didn't respect the police by taking off. I didn't know that lack of respect for police or trying to run from them constituted a death sentence.
END QUOTE

Nope, not a PUNK but rather an individual who made a very bad decision when he decided to run and drag the police officer. Also I’m curious as to what YOU would call someone who “didn’t respect the police by taking off” Well in my book you definitely don’t call them “role models”. If it were just the case of him running the cop would have been 100% at fault. Now I’ll say it again we do not have all the facts but initial reports are stating that the officer was being dragged. Note that it didn’t say he was holding on for that length of time but rather he was being dragged.

QUOTE
You see, police officers and their families don't have to worry about getting speeding tickets or getting the book thrown at them when they break the law or your insurance going up because your sixteen year old got pulled over for doing 8 m.p.h. over the speed limit. What the police don't take into consideration is when they pull someone over, they are about to effect this person life in a very dramatic way. Causing this person and there family monetary hardships for years to come and not to mention the fine and any other things that you all add on when you're writing up your tickets to make sure the one sticks. Maybe if you had to suffer the same consequences the general public does then you may have a more sympathetic view of the general public.
END QUOTE

Since when are police officer above the law? If it’s that way in your community I’ll say it again, go out and do something about it. You elect the officials don’t you? If not you need to start voting. I see on the news all the time were they are being arrested just like anyone else. Heck we have 3 right now that are in jail for some serious offences in my county. Does that make all police officers corrupt? Not by a long shot. Also when you state that they don’t take into consideration the effect that it has on the person being pulled over for monetary hardships for years to come. Well maybe that is something the person who got pulled over should have thought about before he did what ever did to get pulled over. What happened to personal responsibility? I’ll say it again; there are those that have the mantra “It’s the Man’s Fault that I’m in the situation I’m in”. If what you’re doing isn’t working for you then stop what you are doing and try something different. Once again it comes down to taking responsibility for your actions and there are too many people out there that don’t have the gonads to do that. The decisions you make in your life have a huge impact in how your life turns out.

QUOTE
The American people are sick of this Sh*t. I only hope to see police agencies budgets cut. Down size the huge police force we have patrolling our communities. It's a waist of tax payers dollars that can be better spent to help people within our communities.
END QUOTE

Well that makes no sense at all. Who are you going to call when a drugged crazed burglar breaks into your house? Yea I know your next response was going to be that it takes the police 45 minutes or more to respond anyway or that you are just going to shoot him. Well do you even have a clue as to how understaffed most police departments are or do you have any idea how much territory a rural police officer or Sherriff has to cover. In some case it’s hundreds, yes hundreds and in some cases thousands of square miles. Now put yourself in their shoes. Underpaid, undermanned, in many cases outgunned, your hands are tied die to departmental regulations/laws as to what you can and can’t do and you are 50 miles away when you get the call to a scene. Wining, nope I’m not a police officer but I’ve been around them in many instances throughout my life working side by side with them. The VAST majority are excellent officers who put their life on the line every day. Do you hear anyone thanking them for it? No they complain because the A-hole cop stopped them for speeding or driving drunk and it of course in their mind it’s because he’s an A-hole and has nothing to do with the fact that that individual was doing something wrong.

MOFO

06-29-2006, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by LT80

Keep the thread open, ban the ppl arguing.:grr: :mad:

I can only speak for myself, but I have no plans on closing this thread... however the next person that resorts to name calling or takes this thread back down into the chitter might be gone.

I think its a good dicussion, but I have yet to see a good arguement from the anti-cop crowd, just a bunch of hearsay and name calling. :rolleyes:

I find it funny how so many people start assuming facts when they are just "what if's". The report said he was dragged behind the quad... when people are "dragged" around, this usually means something has them stuck to whatever is taking them for a ride. I HIGHLY doubt anyone would just hang on to a quad for a mile, then just fire away if they could let go. I'm sure if he was hanging on with his own hands, it would be reported that the cop grabbed the quad and HELD onto it rather then being "DRAGGED". Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are driving a car and the cop gets his hand stuck in your window and you take off, that is assult with a deadly weapon which would allow the cop to defend his life. I'm sure the same apply's here.

As I said before, wait for the facts and reports to surface... until then your just showing your BIASED points of view.

This is the last chance though... keep it clean or its gone.

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 10:05 AM

Well put Eric,

It's a very interesting discussion. I'm just curious to what the outcome of the investigation will be.

AL

Hornbreaker

06-29-2006, 11:01 AM

I don't think the whole truth well ever come out to the general public, Not even if the parents of the dead rider were to sue either the police department or the officer that shot him, for wrongful death. Lets see what happens in a month or so.

ak_stick

06-29-2006, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Rocketman80
I seen the first couple News broadcasts for this story and it wasn't clear at the time how everything really went down. But what they did say is the young man that was shot and killed for riding his ATV was a Military Veteran (Marine Corp) and he had a family a wife and child. I see some of the people who are referring to this young man as punk who got what he deserved. So basically what you're saying is that it's okay to go and serve your country protecting all of us with his life probably in Iraq. And you think he's a PUNK? Why because he didn't want to get a ticket. Because he didn't respect the police by taking off. I didn't know that lack of respect for police or trying to run from them constitued a death sentence.

Yes, because we know everyone in the military, everyone with a family is a bright shining little angel, and they never do anything wrong.... Just because you have it doesn't make you responsible. Infact many familes are created due to irresponsible people and thier actions.

Yes, I do, you get no sympathy from me for serving in Iraq. I've been away from home for almost two entire years now, and spent almost a year here in Iraq. No one has said the lack of respect for the police was why he was shot, he was shot because he was dragging an officer with a motor vehicle. The fact that he had tried to evade a ticket, is just another in a list of things he did wrong.

Originally posted by Rocketman80

All the police officers responding here need to quit whining about your jobs and how dangerous they are and lack of the general publics cooperation. You see, police officers and their families don't have to worry about getting speeding tickets or getting the book thrown at them when they break the law or your insurance going up because your sixteen year old got pulled over for doing 8 m.p.h. over the speed limit. What the police don't take into consideration is when they pull someone over, they are about to effect this person life in a very dramatic way. Causing this person and there family monetary hardships for years to come and not to mention the fine and any other things that you all add on when you're writing up your tickets to make sure the one sticks. Maybe if you had to suffer the same consequences the general public does then you may have a more sympathetic view of the general public.

Maybe the person who's life is going to be affected in a *very dramatic way* should have considered the effects of thier actions before they decided to break the law then? Monetary hardships? Remember, driving is a PRIVELAGE not a right. And if you cant pay the fines for the infractions you WILLINGLY commit, then you shouldn't be driving.

Originally posted by Rocketman80

I'm just telling you this is your wake up call. The American people are sick of this Sh*t. I only hope to see police agencies budgets cut. Down size the huge police force we have patroling our communities. It's a waist of tax payers dollars that can be better spent to help people within our communities. I see more cop cars sitting at donut shops and corner stores. I mean come on get off your arsses and go to work. Go solve a serious crime and quit worrying about someone riding their ATV on a BACK ROAD not hurting anyone.
Everyone here is talking about the attitude that civilians have towards police. But I don't see anything here about the Attitude of the police towards civilians. Yah you know the people that live in your communities. You know the ones that pay your over paid salaries. I think maybe everyone should join the police force so we all can enjoy the same benefits that you all do.

I'm sure you'd like to see the crime run even more rampant than it already does with our understaffed police forces. I love the typical argument, "But why are you picking on little old me? Dont you have somthing better to do? Go arrest a real criminal." IF you break the law, and get caught, dont get mad, pay your fine, and suck it up. It doesn't matter if your riding an ATV on a back road not hurting anyone, or down main street, if its not legal, you cant do it.

If you think cops have it so easy, and make so much money, maybe you should join the police force and see all the benefits they dont have. LE careers are much like soldiers, they dont get paid that well at the lower levels, only after you have a bunch of years in do you start to make a pretty decent living. Hell look at the LE strike that went on in Ogden the other day, officers are making 23K a year. 23 to raise a family on. And then asked to work as many hours as they do? Yeah, they're SOOOO over paid.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 12:44 PM

Basically, everyone who's on the cop's side has the same argument: The kid broke the law by running and he paid the price.

You can't say that the kid endangered the cop's life. I cannot fathom why the officer would have grabbed onto the rack - I can only wonder his reasoning behind that. The cop endangered his own life - I've said that at least twice before.

The original article says that the kid stopped, and as the two officers got out of the car he took off. That's when the cop grabbed onto the rack or whatever it was that he held onto. I doubt he even knew the cop was there if he just kept going - like I said, if I knew the cop was back there I would have either stopped or tried to shake him off.

So, with that out of the way the only crime the kid commited was riding his quad on the road and running from the police. I don't know about you, but I've seen people on TV rob a bank, run and even shoot at the police and still the criminal comes out alive. If the penalty for running away from a cop on a quad was death, a few of us wouldn't be around today... Including me.

About the actual dragging of the cop... I still don't see how a cop can be dragged for over a mile and still have the stamina and strength to reach down and take out the gun, holding on with one hand all the while. I probably couldn't even do it, and I am willing to bet that I'm in better physical condition than the cop.

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Basically, everyone who's on the cop's side has the same argument: The kid broke the law by running and he paid the price.

You can't say that the kid endangered the cop's life. I cannot fathom why the officer would have grabbed onto the rack - I can only wonder his reasoning behind that. The cop endangered his own life - I've said that at least twice before.

The original article says that the kid stopped, and as the two officers got out of the car he took off. That's when the cop grabbed onto the rack or whatever it was that he held onto. I doubt he even knew the cop was there if he just kept going - like I said, if I knew the cop was back there I would have either stopped or tried to shake him off.

So, with that out of the way the only crime the kid commited was riding his quad on the road and running from the police. I don't know about you, but I've seen people on TV rob a bank, run and even shoot at the police and still the criminal comes out alive. If the penalty for running away from a cop on a quad was death, a few of us wouldn't be around today... Including me.

About the actual dragging of the cop... I still don't see how a cop can be dragged for over a mile and still have the stamina and strength to reach down and take out the gun, holding on with one hand all the while. I probably couldn't even do it, and I am willing to bet that I'm in better physical condition than the cop.

OK you keep saying that the police officer was hanging on. Show me an article that says he was merely hanging on. I could go get the article and post it for you but that would defeat the purpose of me asking the question. I'll let you get the answer youself.

There is physically no way he could hold on for a mile by the way. It's just not going to happen.

Being dragged is endangering the life of the officer if he is hung up on the quad no matter how you look at it.

06-29-2006, 01:11 PM

You know they wouldn't print something in the newspaper to make the cop look like he is the criminal in the case. But let's think about the case. The cop would have had to be about 2-3 inches away to get his belt get caught on the wheelie bar. (Only place cop could have been and not get hurt severely. And don't say he could be on the front, because he wouldn't have made it a mile before stopping the kid.) Please explain this if you're on the cops side.

ak_stick

06-29-2006, 01:15 PM

Right, in todays liberal media, they'd print anything they could to make the cop look bad.

And he was drug by a utility quad, thats whole lot of rack to get snagged on.

MOFO

06-29-2006, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
I doubt he even knew the cop was there if he just kept going -

Wow. This sums up your way of "thinking". Have you ever rode a quad before? Are you telling me you would not notice a full grown man hanging from your ATV? Give me a break! :rolleyes:

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by MrMan
You know they wouldn't print something in the newspaper to make the cop look like he is the criminal in the case. But let's think about the case. The cop would have had to be about 2-3 inches away to get his belt get caught on the wheelie bar. (Only place cop could have been and not get hurt severely. And don't say he could be on the front, because he wouldn't have made it a mile before stopping the kid.) Please explain this if you're on the cops side.

True... Finally somebody else speaks up. Even if he was caught on his belt, he would have been screwed unless he was secure to something, in which case he didn't have to shoot the guy. In that case, he could have just rode with him to wherever he was going. It says in the article he grabbed onto to the ATV, so I don't see a way of him getting caught besides if he hung himself up there on purpose in order to stay held on (unlikely).

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 01:19 PM

You're getting this all wrong. I'm not on anyones side. There just seems to be many people here that only want to blame the police officer and not own up to the fact that this kid made a very unwise decision whick resulted in him being shot. I'm just stating facts as they have been represented so far. I don't have all the answers.

Who's to say the police officer didn't try and grab the bike or the rider for that matter and then got slung to the rear of the quad when it took off thus causing him to get hung up. His utility belt could have then gotten caught up on the rear rack of the ATV. (a very possible scenerio)

I wasn't there so I have no idea as to how he may have gotten hung up on the quad but the example I just gave above would definately explain it.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by MOFO
Wow. This sums up your way of "thinking". Have you ever rode a quad before? Are you telling me you would not notice a full grown man hanging from your ATV? Give me a break! :rolleyes:

It was a ute. I don't really know whether I'd notice him on a fullsize ute or not... I know that I'd be able to tell if he was hanging off my R, but I don't think I would in this case especially if it were a heavy big bore sort.

Why doesn't somebody go out and give it a try?

Anyways, it's like I said: You gotta put yourself in that guy's shoes. If he knew the cop was hanging there he probably would have done something to get him off. I wouldn't want him dragging behind me all the way to my house.

06-29-2006, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
Right, in todays liberal media, they'd print anything they could to make the cop look bad.

And he was drug by a utility quad, thats whole lot of rack to get snagged on.

A cop wouldn't get that close to a person on a quad even if they thought he was a criminal. He would have to had been damn near on the rack to get caught. I honestly can't think of a reason why a cop would be that close to the quad.

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
True... Finally somebody else speaks up. Even if he was caught on his belt, he would have been screwed unless he was secure to something, in which case he didn't have to shoot the guy. In that case, he could have just rode with him to wherever he was going. It says in the article he grabbed onto to the ATV, so I don't see a way of him getting caught besides if he hung himself up there on purpose in order to stay held on (unlikely).

Once again a false statement.

READ the article rather than what others have posted.

Ok, I've done your work for you here is the statement from the article itself and not from what individuals are posting here:

As the troopers left the car, state police said Horton and his friend tried to ride off. As one trooper grabbed Horton, police said the trooper was dragged or carried by the ATV nearly a mile, then shot and killed Horton.

Doesn't say he grabbed the atv or he held onto the ATV.

MOFO

06-29-2006, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
True... Finally somebody else speaks up. Even if he was caught on his belt, he would have been screwed unless he was secure to something, in which case he didn't have to shoot the guy. In that case, he could have just rode with him to wherever he was going. It says in the article he grabbed onto to the ATV, so I don't see a way of him getting caught besides if he hung himself up there on purpose in order to stay held on (unlikely).

...and I've seen actual video footage of a cop reaching into a car (when it was stopped) and the driver puts in into DRIVE then try's to take off with the copy hanging there (the cop was stuck). Guess what happened next? It was open season on the driver.

Funny, no one had a problem with this at the time.

I still want to know how you can ride a quad with a full grown man dragging behind you and you dont know about it... let alone look behind you to see if anyone is chasing you. That person knew DAMN WELL he was beind drug along.

06-29-2006, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
Once again a false statement.

READ the article rather than what others have posted.

Ok, I've done your work for you here is the statement:

As the troopers left the car, state police said Horton and his friend tried to ride off. As one trooper grabbed Horton, police said the trooper was dragged or carried by the ATV nearly a mile, then shot and killed Horton.

Doesn't say he grabbed the atv or he held onto the ATV.

It also says "police said". And the trooper GRABBED Horton, he put himself in the danger.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
You're getting this all wrong. I'm not on anyones side. There just seems to be many people here that only want to blame the police officer and not own up to the fact that this kid made a very unwise decision whick resulted in him being shot. I'm just stating facts as they have been represented so far. I don't have all the answers.

Who's to say the police officer didn't try and grab the bike or the rider for that matter and then got slung to the rear of the quad when it took off thus causing him to get hung up. His utility belt could have then gotten caught up on the rear rack of the ATV. (a very possible scenerio)

I wasn't there so I have no idea as to how he may have gotten hung up on the quad but the example I just gave above would definately explain it.

Oh no - I don't blame the cop entirely. He was in the right when he stopped the guy. He shouldn't have tried and caught him when he took off, at least not in the way that he did. He would have been better off jumping in his squad car. In this, I think he was trying to be a hero.

I definately don't think the kid should be dead, how about you? That's sort of what it looks like to me.

In any case, the entire thing should have been handled differently by both parties, and I don't think anyone can dispute that.

MOFO

06-29-2006, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by MrMan
It also says "police said".

...and here is the statement that shows me you take the word of someone that is breaking the law (running from the police) over a sworn law enforcement officer. How would YOU feel if this person was driving a car instead of a quad? I'll bet it would be a different story...if you even wasted your time with the article.

Just admit it, you dont believe any cops.

06-29-2006, 01:28 PM

I believe cops. But I don't believe cops that are in this kind of situation. If the cop is in the clear, why doesn't he give every single detail to prove it? Something is fishy in this story, and a kid suffered the ultimate price for it.

ak_stick

06-29-2006, 01:30 PM

Ofcorse the cop put himself in danger, they do that every day. Just putting on the badge makes him a target.

I think it could have been better if the kid didn't try to run, but he put an officers life in danger with his choice, and I think the cop was 100% right in firing his weapon.

That *kid* didn't suffer, he paid the price for the choice he made as a concious adult. If he wasn't willing to risk it, he shouldnt' have gambled it.

06-29-2006, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
Ofcorse the cop put himself in danger, they do that every day. Just putting on the badge makes him a target.

I think it could have been better if the kid didn't try to run, but he put an officers life in danger with his choice, and I think the cop was 100% right in firing his weapon.

I totally agree with that it would have been better if he hadn't ran. But the cop had other options that would have stopped the kid. Shooting him was not the only choice. And because I know people say "he couldn't aim that well, so he probably didn't mean to shoot him in the head", what else would he had been shooting at? He intended to shoot the kid. Since when did cops resort to shooting the person in order to stop them? Last time I knew, they shot them in the legs to stop them, or the wheels in this case.

ak_stick

06-29-2006, 01:35 PM

You understand wrong. You do not shoot a person in the legs, if you fire, you shoot to stop the threat. In this case, the officer was being drug by the vehicle, thats assualt with a deadly weapon. Last time I checked my local PD's force continum thats justifyable grounds for deadly force.

I think you agree, that serious bodly harm could come from being dragged behind an ATV no?

The only one who suffers in this is the cop who now has to live with having shot someone.

06-29-2006, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
You understand wrong. You do not shoot a person in the legs, if you fire, you shoot to stop the threat. In this case, the officer was being drug by the vehicle, thats assualt with a deadly weapon. Last time I checked my local PD's force continum thats justifyable grounds for deadly force.

I think you agree, that serious bodly harm could come from being dragged behind an ATV no?

The only one who suffers in this is the cop who now has to live with having shot someone.

I'll agree with most of it, but there were other options for ending the threat without killing the kid. And you're wrong. The cop isn't the only want who suffers. The kid also had family, who are now going to live with it because he made one bad choice.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 01:38 PM

I found another article that says the ATV with the kid was in a feild, while the cop ended up in the road. So this makes it obvious (to me at least, but I'm sure it will be contested) that the officer was hanging on to the ATV.

You know, if the kid would have just kept going instead of stopping to think about it while the cop got out of his car, he'd still be alive.

Also, what about a dash camera from the car, or an account by the dirtbike rider that he was with? (I wonder how they got the dirtbike if he kept running - it was shown in a video being loaded onto a truck) Also, the report says that the fugitive they were looking for had stolen an ATV, which is why they pulled him over in the first place.

I don't really think that if I escaped from prison, I would steal an ATV just to go riding with a dirtbike buddy of mine. I'd steal it to escape into the wilderness, and let the excitement die.

ak_stick

06-29-2006, 01:48 PM

Well fortunetly, most escaped convicts dont think very smart, and usualy end up getting busted.

You keep suggesting the kid would have been better off to just run from the cops, why not just advocate being smarter and not trying to run?

Running is no better, because if they'd chased him, and say he wrecked and they ran him over, of if he wrecked and died, you'd be here complaining that they should have just let him go because he wasn't hurting anyone, and they have bigger fish to fry.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
I think you agree, that serious bodly harm could come from being dragged behind an ATV no?

The only one who suffers in this is the cop who now has to live with having shot someone.

I don't think the cop is losing any sleep. Like I said, the officer and the ATV were found in different locations, meaning that the ATV went off of the road, and the cop let go after he shot the kid. If he could have let go after shooting him, he could have done it without shooting just as easily.

He chose to shoot the guy - the media is already using sensationalism to cover up the cops by saying he was "drug or carried"... They're trying to make it look like he had no choice.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
Well fortunetly, most escaped convicts dont think very smart, and usualy end up getting busted.

You keep suggesting the kid would have been better off to just run from the cops, why not just advocate being smarter and not trying to run?

Running is no better, because if they'd chased him, and say he wrecked and they ran him over, of if he wrecked and died, you'd be here complaining that they should have just let him go because he wasn't hurting anyone, and they have bigger fish to fry.

You didn't address the main point that I made.

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
I found another article that says the ATV with the kid was in a feild, while the cop ended up in the road. So this makes it obvious (to me at least, but I'm sure it will be contested) that the officer was hanging on to the ATV.
ent die.

OK,

I really have to know how you came to that conclusion.

Give me an educated reason that this indicates that he was holding on! What makes it so obvious to you from the statement above that he was holding on?

ak_stick

06-29-2006, 01:56 PM

So your saying that its impossible for him to have been drug because he ended up in a different location from where the atv was found?

maybe after he shot the guy, he was able to free himself from the quad.

maybe after he shot the guy, he bouced or was tossed free by a bump or rut...

And as far as the officer not loosing any sleep over if, have you ever fired a weapon at someone? Or actualy killed someone? Trust me, its not fun, even if your in the right.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
OK,

I really have to know how you came to that conclusion.

Give me an educated reason that this indicates that he was holding on! What makes it so obvious to you from the statement above that he was holding on?

The hole is getting much deeper now!

Because if he was stuck on the ATV rather than holding himself up, he would have been found in the same place as the ATV and the kid were.

http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=39083

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by ak_stick
So your saying that its impossible for him to have been drug because he ended up in a different location from where the atv was found?

maybe after he shot the guy, he was able to free himself from the quad.

maybe after he shot the guy, he bouced or was tossed free by a bump or rut...

And as far as the officer not loosing any sleep over if, have you ever fired a weapon at someone? Or actualy killed someone? Trust me, its not fun, even if your in the right.

Now you're being naive. If he could have freed himself after the guy was shot he could have done it before as well.

ak_stick

06-29-2006, 02:02 PM

not realy, my first duty is to stop the threat, and or the guy I'm persuing.

That article says he was dragged for over a mile, and they found him lying in the road. Sounds to me like he shot the guy and then was bounced or slung off the quad....

we dont know if the guy maintained the same corse after the shot, if he veered hard either way, is there a ditch or bank that would have jostled or knocked the officer from the atv?

Yeah, your story proves nothing, and only further justfies the cop.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 02:12 PM

Okay.

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Because if he was stuck on the ATV rather than holding himself up, he would have been found in the same place as the ATV and the kid were.

http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=39083

So in your mind just because he wasn't found at the same location as the quad that makes it obvious that he was holding on which means there's no way he was caught up on the quad and possibly got loose or got thrown loose during the entire mile he was caught up. That doesn't even pass the common sense test. Again we don't have the facts but who's to say the police officer didn't make his way back out to the road?

You're grasping for straws.

Pretty soon you'll be all the way to China.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 04:01 PM

I'm not grasping for straws. My explanation holds up better - It's *way* less likely that he hit a bump and flew off- if he was stuck good enough to be carried for over a mile, it's highly unlikely he would be thrown off as soon as the ATV lost it's operator.

juiced450r

06-29-2006, 04:08 PM

In any case I have seen officers arresting a fugitive or someone they think is dangerous, they normally have them out of the vehicle and on the ground before they even approach them. If this officer thought this kid was a convict and may have had a weapon, wouldn't he have had his gun drawn and got the kid off the ATV and on the ground before he approached him. My guess is he had his gun drawn, told him to get off, the kid gunned it, he grabbed on to the rack, he let go or lost grip and took a few shots. Just my opinion.

MOFO

06-29-2006, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
I'm not grasping for straws. My explanation holds up better -

Please explain how the rider of the quad did NOT know a cop was dragging behind him? Are you saying he NEVER looked back to see if anyone was chasing him? I'm sure the cop just sat back there and never made a noise either.... :rolleyes:

-or-

Did he know the cop was there and kept going without a care in the world for the safety of the cop.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 05:12 PM

Maybe it had a Cobra and he couldn't hear him :D

Seriously though, I don't know why the guy didn't stop or do something. It could have been anything - The news stories we got have more holes than a block of swiss cheese.

But don't you agree that it's fishy that he wouldn't do SOMETHING when he noticed? I personally, if placed in that situation, would have tried to knock the cop into something to get rid of him. I don't see why the guy just kept going - he can't just take the cop home with him like that, and if he was actually stuck instead of holding on like you say, that would have had to be the outcome. What else do you think he had planned for him?

I wasn't there, so I'm not sure of the specifics. All I know for sure is that something isn't right with the story - It doesn't hold up! So, could the guys that WERE there tell me what the cop's partner was doing while his buddy was being dragged a mile down the road?

jrspawn

06-29-2006, 05:24 PM

Im gonna have to say like a few others have already said, there is obviously more to this story that unfortunetly we might not ever know.

AL Elks

06-29-2006, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast

I personally, if placed in that situation, would have tried to knock the cop into something to get rid of him. [/B]

Ok now I see where this is all coming from. It's evident that you would have no problem breaking the law or endangering a law enforcement officer. You're 18 years old and you advertise in your profile "18 and still no job!" and you are making statements like the one above.

This like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man and you're the one that's outgunned.

Enough said!

MXracer16

06-29-2006, 06:17 PM

I find it funny how some people are saying "he should have just shot the tire or something". That is just plain stupid. Ever see a tire blow up or pop? Its not pretty, especially if your only a foot away from it with your face closest to it. If he would have shot the tire, the driver would have lost control, swerved, skidded whatever, and probably rolled the ATV. This would result in both of them getting injured or more likely, killed.

Another thing, "Why didnt the cop just let go?" Did you ever stop and think that maybe he was caught up on something? There are many ways a cops belt could get caught on the rack of an ATV.

If the driver would have any commom sence, he would have stopped and nutted up. The cop would have been screaming and hitting the man probably to get him to stop. The driver kept right on going, probably knowing full well the cop was on the back.

And Iliketogofast, no I would not do the same thing he had done or tryed to get the cop to fall off or whatever. That is the worst thing you could do. You would get charged battery and agrevated assault of a police officer.

And Im spent!

NorCalRacer

06-29-2006, 08:20 PM

If the whole thing is a case of "mistaken identity", it would easily have been solved by the rider stopping. They might even have released him without a ticket since they were involved in a manhunt. He didn't stop though, he became a criminal and endangered a cop in a criminal act. I do not agree with the fact that he was shot in the head but if a guy is being dragged behind an ATV and shoots upward at the driver the only areas he could hit would be the high back or head. Why is everyone so quick to place the blame on the cop for getting himself dragged behind the ATV?

And for Iliketogofast, you obviously don't believe in police or taking responsibility for your own actions. Try to remember that we live in a society and there are rules to maintain order. Maybe if you hate the police SO VERY much like you profess to, you should go elsewhere and see what rights people have.

06-29-2006, 08:25 PM

Let's make a scenario here. An average joe is out riding and sees a cop trying to pull him over. I'd say most of the time the guy would dash into the woods and stay hidden until the cop goes by. Now put an average joe in a car and he sees a cop trying to pull him over. 9 times out of 10 he'll pull over. Average joes are more likely to pull over in a car, because running from the cops on a quad is a common thing. If you run from the cops in a car, you most likely have done something illegal (pot, meth, etc). But you have to agree, that it is HIGHLY unlikely that the family would hear on the scanner they had the criminal corned at the same time their son was shot. Do I have to tell you how highly unlikely that is?

Pappy

06-29-2006, 09:00 PM

wow:eek2:

I just read from start to finish this thread and man..what a read:p

a few things...

1) Forensics should show the angle and psoition of the officers gun when fired. I dont know about anyone else, but if i laid down and tried hanging on to a rear rack, i doubt I could hit the head of the operator without pure luck.....now add in the fact that as some speculate , the officer was being drug violently behind this quad.

2) I am not sure how one could get tangled in the rack unless you were damn near on top of the quad. Not taking sides, just looking at this from a logical point of view. If you stand at an arms reach from the rider, even a fast acceleration would do nothing more then warm up your toes.

3)With that said, maybe its possible some missing info is indeed the key to figuring out what happned. I suspect the operator and officer at some point became entangled, maybe an attempt to turn off the atv. The reports stated slight abrasions and bruises. I doubt even an officer with a vest could only sustain light injuries from such a dragging. Ive drug deer for less distance and wore thier hide down to the meat.

4) If indeed the officer shot the suspect while NOT being dragged then this is a serious issue and should be dealt with accordingly. Noone wants this type of officer on any of our police staffs.

Until ALL the evidence is brought forth, noone can make any assumptions on either side of the issue. No one, especially law enforcement wants to think the officer busted this guy in the head when there was no immediate life endangering issue....but it could come out that way. The mere fact that being drug for over a mile has me stumped and is the only information keeping me from saying the deceased deserved what he got. I do not side on either party in this discussion, it is not logical to do so until when and if all facts are brought forward.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
Ok now I see where this is all coming from. It's evident that you would have no problem breaking the law or endangering a law enforcement officer. You're 18 years old and you advertise in your profile "18 and still no job!" and you are making statements like the one above.

This like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man and you're the one that's outgunned.

Enough said!

No. I wouldn't be in that situation, period. I would have made the descision when I saw the cop to either dash for the woods or stop for him.

I said IF I WERE PLACED IN HIS POSITION - I.E., if there was a cop dragging himself behind my quad. Maybe it's something in the water in New York... I don't see a cop trying a stunt like that one around here.

Before you get started... I run from the cops around here because whether or not I get in trouble if I stop seems to be up to the cop's personal opinion. Most of them tell me that it's alright, while many tell me that my bike will be impounded if I'm caught again. My quad isn't going to be impounded, ever. ESPECIALLY on the whim of some hardass cop.

By the way, there's no need for you to concern yourself with my personal agenda, especially when it comes to employment. For your information, I'm enrolled in college. That would make my occupation "student", no? I have no time for a minumum wage job... And I thought MOFO told you to cut the chitchat. The entire statement above had nothing to do with any of it.

GIXXER1KR

06-29-2006, 09:12 PM

Well PAPPY couldnt have said it any better!!!CHIT if i fall off my quad im busted!!!Dragged a mile with minor cuts and bruises!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Its fishy.

Pappy

06-29-2006, 09:33 PM

There does not appear to be any updated info on this issue. I did re read the one news article and it stated the man they have been searching for had possibly dicarded a mini van and a report was taken for a stolen red atv in that general area. A clear case of mistaklen identity could be at play, but running from the law leads you nowhere.

It will be interesting to see how this all comes out. It could be an issue where a drunken person, or high on something decided he wasnt spending the night in jail and it led to his death. I cant see a former Marine acting in this manner, but just because you once served your country doesnt mean you cant do bad things. I am sure toxicology reports will be filed and reported on soon enough. Funny how a snap decision leads you down a path in life...for the officer and the dead man.

06-29-2006, 10:01 PM

I'm not a cop hater in any sort. But if it goes the way I'm thinking it will, I don't think they'll investigate more than they need to. In a couple weeks, it'll be a past story to most people but the families. If it happens like this, I hope the family does something to get to the facts.

CBRSLIDER

06-29-2006, 10:05 PM

GEEEZZZZ! Couple days away and look how things have gone from the story at hand to so many different battles.

First off..."NorCalRacer

If you were dragging a person however, would you still run? It is pretty messed up, but I am pretty sure it isn't as one-sided as people would like to think. We will never know the truth behind what happened but I know one thing, running from the police is an act of cowardice. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time because this is the real world and if you act like a jackass it will come back to bite you. I don't thing he should be shot for simply evading, but I also don't believe that a cop would want to kill a kid for evading either.
How do you think the cop feels? He might have children as well. I am sure something like this isn't pushed out of your head easily...

I am not saying the cop is in the right, but I have no evidence presented to me to show that he wasn't."

I wish I could have been as concise as you were in your post. I think that this is one of the best ways to put what I was thinking. In no way am I stating that I KNOW for a fact that the officer was justified. I don't know that and have stated that we do not have all the information needed. SO why then have the majority of you made decisions that the deceased is the victim???? and the only victim?? Maybe he is but how can you make that logical decision?? From the media reports?? From someone that said they were listening to the scanner and heard what was happening? If that is all that you need to make the decision, I pray I have you guys on my jury next time I am trying to convict someone. If that little info is enough to convince you that the officer is guilty, then my trial will be a slam dunk. See I am pointing out that this situation is more complex than anyone that is not in the legal system would ever understand. I wish everything was just black and white, but its not.

Rocketman80....sounds like you have some real hangups on cops and need to do something about it. Here are some suggestions: 1. Become a cop, so you can have all these lovely perks you speak so much about that we have and solve all those crimes that have never been solved. 2. Vote your local officials out of office and run yourself so that you can change the local problems you have. 3. Move to a place like England where their cops aren't so mean. 4. Or just continue to not like us.

Now to address you comment about PHILLIPS. What makes you so sure that it isn't known that he is the one that shot the NYSP Trooper in Horseheads area???? Which by the way is less than 150 miles away from where this incident took place. Did you read that in the media reports??? BTW-side note for ya..we have video footage here in a small grocery store near where I work of PHILLIPS. Hmmm...I'm only about 40 miles away from Jamestown. So why would we look for him around here? Your beef with cops is clouding any sane judgement that you have. Your comments about PHILLIPS just add to the thought that anything that you say cannot be construed to be a logical thought or conclusion due to your absolute one-sided thinking. And don't think that you are the only one that has ever had your life changed by the police, just ask all three of my brothers.

There are some of you on here that have really opened my eyes to how our society really thinks. To some of you I applaud you for making good arguments, for both sides. And there are some of you that I know with your current train of thought will be insurance that I am never out of a job.

Once again God Bless all the parties involved in this tragedy. I hope that some day we have the information needed to better understand what took place that night.

Ray

MOFO, AL Elks, NorCalRacer, Popo, ak_stick,
and Pappy, you guys have some good arguments and have made the pains of reading all this more tolerable. Keep up the good debate. Thanks guys. And a special thanks to the guys that served for our country(including the deceased).

Pappy

06-29-2006, 10:08 PM

The sad part in all of this....

this type of thing happens everyday in almost every major city and i would be willing to bet most people would simply say.." the little crack dealer deserved it" without even giving it a second thought.

06-29-2006, 10:14 PM

Scanners can only pick up so far. I doubt they can pick up 150 miles away, probably not more than 30-40. So if the family did hear what they did on the scanner, that'd put it around the area where the kid got pulled over, and shot. People think the kid who was shot is the victim because of the fact he is the one they're making the grave for. But they forget about the cop, who probably never shot someone in his life and will have to live with it. And by the way, Phillips stole a mini van, so he could make the 150 mile trip pretty quick. It's not like he was on foot, so he could have been around the place where the incident happened. But I'm done debating though. My prayers out to the family of the kid and to the cop.

Iliketogofast

06-29-2006, 10:25 PM

NorCalRacer

06-29-2006, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
The sad part in all of this....

this type of thing happens everyday in almost every major city and i would be willing to bet most people would simply say.." the little crack dealer deserved it" without even giving it a second thought.

This would be a sad world if that was truly the general concensus. I would like to disagree and say I believe in the good of mankind but you are probably right. It is unfortunate our society has gotten to the point where situations like this occur.

AL Elks

06-30-2006, 05:38 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast

By the way, there's no need for you to concern yourself with my personal agenda, especially when it comes to employment.

Seems to me that you want everyone to know that little fact, because you advertise it in your profile. Just stating the obvious or do you want to twist this around too.?

By the way, trust me, I'm not concerned in the least bit and I didn't drag this post down by stating what I did. If you didn’t' want to be recognized for being 18 and still not having a job then don't advertise it in your profile. Of course. Let's see if I've got this straight. You advertise that you're 18 and still don't have a job and when someone brings it up it's their fault? I'm starting to see a pattern here. If you don’t' want it mentioned then don't advertise it but of course it's may fault for bringing it up I guess! :confused:

Anyway back on topic. It's definitely going to be interesting to find out the outcome of this tragedy.

Nice post Pappy!

Iliketogofast

06-30-2006, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by AL Elks

Nice post Pappy!

It's funny that you congratulate him when he posted nearly the same things that I did, except from a neutral standpoint. The only difference is that (1. I took a side from the beginning, which was a mistake and (2. I don't like you.

Mofo, why don't you just close the thread? It's going nowhere.

By the way, I changed it since it bothers you so much. It now reads "Student".

MOFO

06-30-2006, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast

Mofo, why don't you just close the thread? It's going nowhere.

Actually, it is... it shows everyones true colors IMO. If dont like it, stay out of it... no one is forcing YOU to click on it and reply.

Besides, I would like to see the results of any investigations that may pop up and continue this discussion. I'm sure most mature adults would agree.

Rocketman80

06-30-2006, 09:11 AM

CBRSLIDER

The only hang up I have with the police is that most of you don't deserve to wear a badge. And once you do, it all goes to your head that you're a little bit better than everyone else. I think we call that a power trip.
Your suggestions are great
1. Become a cop, so you can have all these lovely perks you speak so much about that we have and solve all those crimes that have never been solved. 2. Vote your local officials out of office and run yourself so that you can change the local problems you have. 3. Move to a place like England where their cops aren't so mean. 4. Or just continue to not like us.

Hey don't be mad at me because you don't like the criticism. I just speak it like I see it and for that matter I would say it's the general concensus of how people feel about Police.
And it sounds great to run for office and change things but if you had read my post we have what's called the good ole boy system that dictates how we live here. You must be part of it to make a comment like that.
And why would I want to move to England? I'm not afraid cops or all the crap you try to pull, I rather find enjoyment exposing you for you really are. I served my country and have defended it so why don't you move out... One less cop can only make America better the way I see. One less pay check the taxpayers have to afford you.
I guess the real question is to you is, how do you really feel knowing you're in a career where people hate you and what you do and the way you do it. It's a good thing you've got your partners to pat your back and provide you with words of encouragement to stick with it.
I would rather choose number 4 and just not like you and continue spread the word of all your hidious police actions, that always so convienently get swept under the rug. I would think if you were a cop that was for real and wanted to better understand why the community you protect doesn't want you around. Instead you come on here and run your mouth about what I should do. That just shows me you're probably one of the cops that is causing the problem with your arrogant attitude. Keep thinking your better than all of us with all the anwsers, I'm sure you'll gain public support that way....
All you're doing is making a folk hero out of Bucky Phillips. Who supposidly shot a police officer near the Binghamton area which is exactly 180 miles from here. Have you seen the new bumper stickers that say Run Bucky Run... Hey and you forgot to mention how the police invaded Bucky's parents house kicked their door in and roughed them up. I suppose their neighbors who witnessed it all are liars also. So let's get this right according to you that if you're not a police officer you think everyone is a liar. I think you have that turned all around. It's the cops that are trying to protect your own arsses by lying and sticking together with your own stories. Funny how that all the police stories were all different with the ATV riders incident. But that's okay you guys are cops and you can say and do whatever you want to who ever you want without reprocussions.
So why don't I throw this out there for you to chew on. How are you so sure that there wasn't a witness to how this cop actually killing this ATV rider. I think you may be suprised when it's all said and done. You might find that the cop wasn't drug more than about 5 feet before he stood up and pulled his gun out and shot the kid from behind. That sounds so much more like the truth than the cop lying and saying he was drug a mile. No one here believes it. So do you think a jury is going to believe it. I would say your cop buddy's Arss is grass and the day of the lying cop and dishonest cop is coming to an end and I think it bothers you to think that the people of this country are sick of being policed to death. But hey don't forget to pull the kid over this afternoon for riding his mini bike on the road. Anything bigger than that may be more than you can handle. All you do is hide behind your badge with a group of other badge toting idiots that back you up. I wish they had like a alumni football game or something with the cops so I could go smack a few of ya around. It might knock some common sense into ya's. As far as I'm concerned I think if you really cared, you would try to find out why someone feels this way and help them understand the things you do. But insulting me here is only proving the point I am making.
1.) The police are arrogant with a I'm better than the general public attitude.
2.) I'm a cop so I can do whatever I want and get away with it.
3.) I'm a cop so I can lie and get away with it because my benevolent buddies will back me up.
I could sit here all day and write crap about how bad most of the cops are but I really don't want to waste my time. I think you've already got the general public against you by your own actions.
I think there is one thing that we probably agree on. That is both of these incidences are tragic. Unless of course you don't really care about the general public at all in that case you should probably just go turn in your badge.

AL Elks

06-30-2006, 09:41 AM

Careful Rocketman80,

Posts like that may get this thread locked.

Let's keep this discussion going after we get some more specifics.

Now I'm really surprised at how may people here say they would run from the police and how many people say they do it on a regular basis. 99% of the time if you're running you did something wrong in the first place.

This brings up another topic of discussion that maybe we need to start another thread on. I would submit that those individuals who do this on a consistant bases are the ones who are giving all the other ATV riders out there a bad rep.

While we're waiting on more specifics on the case we've been discussing over the last few days I'd like to hear what others think about this.

Iliketogofast

06-30-2006, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by MOFO
Actually, it is... it shows everyones true colors IMO. If dont like it, stay out of it... no one is forcing YOU to click on it and reply.

Besides, I would like to see the results of any investigations that may pop up and continue this discussion. I'm sure most mature adults would agree.

The thread would probably die if I left. I'm the only one arguing :eek:

Btw, I hope you aren't calling me immature. The only reason I've continued to debate over this is because it seems to me that noone cares that this kid is dead, and they think he deserved it. I'm just trying to speak for those who can't - I think there was something fishy.

One guy even went into my profile and attacked me personally - This isn't court, it's the internet. Nothing is at stake here, so stop trying to demerit my character.

Rocketman80

06-30-2006, 10:53 AM

Sorry Al Elks, I'm saying no more than the truth and sometimes that hurts and offends people. I will try to use more tact when I post. But don't ask me to stop telling the American people the truth.
Ya know if a cop would just say, hey we're human and we make mistakes and we're sorry for it, we're doing our best to help everyone.
That's not the case here. It's all about protecting their buddies image and lying about it if they have too. Cops are not any different than you and I. Trust me they all stick together.
I'm not telling anyone to go out and break the law in anyway. Infact don't break any laws so we can prove that the police make things up to protect their jobs and themselves. If no one broke the law, what would we need police for? I think it would be a much better place to live if everyone would just be nice and look out for each other, show compassion and empathy towards your fellow man.
Here's the biggest questions I have though.
WHY HAVEN'T THEY TOLDS US THE COPS NAME WHO SHOT THE GUY ON THE ATV?
WHY HAS THE NEWS MEDIA SWEPT IT ALL UNDER THE RUG? HAVEN'T HEARD ONE THING ABOUT IT SINCE THE FIRST REPORT. If the roles were reversed it would be all over the news every night just like the I.E. Bucky Phillips case. It's a perfect example of propoganda though editting out the ATV rider story. The police and news media only let you hear what you want too. What country is this??? Russia... or the U.S.A.
I would like to continue to think we live in a free country but police and government suppression of their mistakes and the media is what makes everyone so upset. I certainly am not out to offend anyone hear so don't take anything I say personally because I am not directing my comments towards anyone specifically. That's not how I handle things... trust me if I have a problem with someone,, I'll walk right up to your face and let you know... toe to toe, man to man. I won't aire it out here in a public forum to be debated by people who don't know all the facts.

ak_stick

06-30-2006, 11:04 AM

Yes, your right, the cop was drug for 5 sec, then shot the kid.

thats why he was found laying in the road, and was taken to a hospital.

Yep, that cop thought he was so much better than everyone else, he must have done the low crawl down the road for a few feet so he got nice and roughed up then laid down and waited for someone to find him.

Yeah, look at nice england where the cops are so nice, they dont even carry guns, and look the crime rate is through the roof. They've banned guns, knives, and criminalize the people who defend themselves, and now thier country is running itself into the ground. Thats a proud example.

Yeah, I find it funny people cry and whine about the cops, but when somthing happens and THEY need help, they're the first ones whining, and moaning about it.

Iliketogofast

06-30-2006, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by AL Elks
Careful Rocketman80,

Posts like that may get this thread locked.

Let's keep this discussion going after we get some more specifics.

Now I'm really surprised at how may people here say they would run from the police and how many people say they do it on a regular basis. 99% of the time if you're running you did something wrong in the first place.

This brings up another topic of discussion that maybe we need to start another thread on. I would submit that those individuals who do this on a consistant bases are the ones who are giving all the other ATV riders out there a bad rep.

While we're waiting on more specifics on the case we've been discussing over the last few days I'd like to hear what others think about this.

Here's how I see it.

The first 2 or 3 times a cop actually tried stopping me, I stopped. Out of those times, I got different opinions from all of them. One told me it was fine, another told me I needed a driver's liscence to do it (which I have) and another said if he caught me again the bike was impounded and I went to jail. In the meantime, my cousin was riding to my house on his dirt bike one day, gets stopped by a cop. The cop made him get off and push his bike home in the humid, 95 degree weather. He followed him in his car the entire time.

Okay, fine. If they say the next time I ride on the road they are impounding my bike, I'll just make sure that I don't get caught. I ride on the road less now, because I don't like to ditch cops. I DON'T THINK IT'S A GOOD THING. I even made a bridge to cross a deep creek where I normally would have had to ride the road. But I make sure when I do have to that nobody catches me.

I've only ran about 3 or 4 times, but it's very simple around here with all the roadside trails to escape onto. It's all my property for an entire rural block (several hundred acres), so all of the trails lead either to my house or my grandpa's. I don't endager anyones life by taking the road to and from trails. I obey speed limits.

If anyone should be harassed for riding on the road around here, it's the marathon bikers. They ride in a lane of traffic as if they are cars, and will not move for you - you have to pass them as if they were cars. This presents a serious hazard on the country roads with all of the people cruising through at 60-80MPH.

There's nothing wrong with me riding a motorized vehicle on the road, at the same speed as the traffic. I refuse to have my $10,000 investment go down the drain because of some hardass cop looking to fill his quota.

Most of the cops, however, just wave at me as I go by.

ak_stick

06-30-2006, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Here's how I see it.

There's nothing wrong with me riding a motorized vehicle on the road, at the same speed as the traffic. I refuse to have my $10,000 investment go down the drain because of some hardass cop looking to fill his quota.

Well except that its not a street legal vehicle, and its against the law. But you dont see a problem with that?

If you refuse to have your 10K investment go down the drain, how about being a responsible adult?

Originally posted by Rocketman80
But don't ask me to stop telling the American people the truth.

Thats just it, your not telling the truth. Your just angry that an ATV rider got shot and YOU dont think it was justified.

Now you cant prove it wasn't. And the evidence seems to point towards it being a good shoot. So your ranting about cops, and how they've got a chip on thier shoulder. And YOU feel that they've got all these advantages in life and its not fair.

popo

06-30-2006, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
.

There's nothing wrong with me riding a motorized vehicle on the road, at the same speed as the traffic. I refuse to have my $10,000 investment go down the drain because of some hardass cop looking to fill his quota.

Quota :confused: Did they teach you this in Cop bashing 101. No department has a so called quota system. If they did, the D.O.J. would be on them so fast.

You running from me on your quad tells me one thing "Stolen" and I will catch you trust me! I call that my "Quota".

ghost450

06-30-2006, 01:31 PM

This is how I see it, for those of you that will take it personal, too bad!

I am very familiar with Police Officers down here in Miami, I have a cousin and and an uncle that are local police. They are responsible and do their jobs effeciently and correctly. Now, I have been to many parties where there are only cops and their families, and wow have I heard some real stories. Not only have I heard scenarios of them kicking the crap out of people just because they had to chase them, but have heard stories that I wouldn't even share on here. I read some where on here that it would be dumb to place a civilian's word against a "sworn officer's" I about busted a gut laughing! They are human and make mistakes, and they are also selfish, egotistical and so on just like people can be.

Now on to this story, here's what I believe happened.

PO pulls over man on quad. Man decides he is fleeing (definately stupid). Cop believes he has "Bucky" and decides he's not letting the big fish get away so he decides to grab the bike. After being dragged he notices he is in a losing battle and decides he will not let go and be embarrased, so he shoots in hopes of forcing the man to stop. I would like to think he was not aiming to kill, it would be real damn hard to shoot someone in the head on purpose from that position.

Now was it stupid to run, no question. Did he have to pay with his life, definately not.

That whole he got tangled with the bike scenario is completely upsurd, how could that logically happen?? If he were a civilian in the same scenario he would be sitting in jail.

I feel better now.

juiced450r

06-30-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by popo
Quota
and I will catch you trust me! I call that my "Quota".

You wonder why people think cops are arrogant and think there S*it don't stink. Your statement there is a prime example. You are a bad A** my friend.

popo

06-30-2006, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by juiced450r
You wonder why people think cops are arrogant and think there S*it don't stink. Your statement there is a prime example. You are a bad A** my friend.

1st. I'm dahm proud to be arrogant when I catch quad thiefs. And I go out of my way to rub it in thier face while thier in the back of my cruiser crying like a little B****.

2nd. I'm not your friend!

OhioLawman

06-30-2006, 04:12 PM

Interesting things happening here.

AL Elks

06-30-2006, 04:13 PM

Ahhhh! Looks like some backup has arrived.

I'm going to take a break from all the insanity and go down to the donut shop. Anyone want anything while I"m going that way? :D

juiced450r

06-30-2006, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by popo
1st. I'm dahm proud to be arrogant when I catch quad thiefs. And I go out of my way to rub it in thier face while thier in the back of my cruiser crying like a little B****.

2nd. I'm not your friend!

I bet your town adores you!!!:blah: I am sure you do not have to many friends with that attitude.:eek2:

popo

06-30-2006, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by AL Elks
Ahhhh! Looks like some backup has arrived.

I'm going to take a break from all the insanity and go down to the donut shop. Anyone want anything while I"m going that way? :D

2 glazed please.

AL Elks

06-30-2006, 04:32 PM

Actually I can pretty much guarantee you he has tons of friends, it's just that they are respectable friends.

I've followed many of POPOs posts not only on this board but many others and he's a VERY honorable individual from what I have deduced. Now I can't say the same for a few of the individuals that have been posting here, not at least by the posts they have been making.

Ever heard the phrase, "you are who you hang aroud with". If you're hanging around with the wrong crowd you're percieved as part of that crowd.

Ok 1 more since I'm on a roll. If you put 1 crab in a pot he'll climb out. If you put him in a pot full of other crabs everytime he tries to climb out the others will just keep pulling him down.

AL Elks

06-30-2006, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by popo
2 glazed please.

You got it brother. Anyone else?

Iliketogofast

06-30-2006, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by popo

You running from me on your quad tells me one thing "Stolen" and I will catch you trust me! I call that my "Quota".

That's probably what all of them thought.

But anyways, like I said - more cops told me that I can ride on the road than not. They usually don't even give chase, but when they do I usually don't feel like stopping just so they can check for my driver's liscence. Only one of them told me he'd impound, and that one saw me doing a wheelie from a dead stop, right before clocking me at 75. He doesn't like me anyways - I got into it with his son once. See how it goes? That cop holds a personal grudge against me because I punked his son out. Crooked.

wilkin250r

06-30-2006, 09:27 PM

I've just read the entire thread, and my brain hurts. I cannot believe some of the stupid things being said.

There are certainly some unanswered questions, no doubt.

However, I have never seen ANY cop that would draw his gun and fire on a whim. Never. I don't care if he is a perfectly respectable upstanding officer, or a power-hungry, crooked and corrupt a-hole on a power trip. They don't draw and fire unless there is a reason. Office Itchy Trigger Finger only happens in Hollywood, I assure you, and this isn't Hollywood.

I'm willing to bet the officer was caught or hung up on the quad. Now, it may be that he tried to grab on, or tried to grab the suspect as he fled. It may very well indeed have been a poor decision that led him to that situation, but I can't imagine an officer taking a man's life if he has the option to just let go.

I'm betting he was stuck, and I'm betting the driver knew he was there.

We ALL know the suspect should have stopped. If he did, if he obeyed the law, he would be alive today. Even if the officer made a bad decision that somehow led him to get stuck on the quad, the end result is a driver trying to flee, and the officer's life in danger because of it. The driver had multiple opportunities to avoid the situation, the officer had maybe one opportunity.

And, just so you know, in case you're ever faced with the situation, and officer never never never fires to "wound". You'll never be intentionally shot in the leg by a police officer. Deadly force is exactly that.

Iliketogofast

06-30-2006, 09:36 PM

Aren't posts capped at 255?

Quad18star

06-30-2006, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by wilkin250r
I've just read the entire thread, and my brain hurts. I cannot believe some of the stupid things being said.

There are certainly some unanswered questions, no doubt.

However, I have never seen ANY cop that would draw his gun and fire on a whim. Never. I don't care if he is a perfectly respectable upstanding officer, or a power-hungry, crooked and corrupt a-hole on a power trip. They don't draw and fire unless there is a reason. Office Itchy Trigger Finger only happens in Hollywood, I assure you, and this isn't Hollywood.

I'm willing to bet the officer was caught or hung up on the quad. Now, it may be that he tried to grab on, or tried to grab the suspect as he fled. It may very well indeed have been a poor decision that led him to that situation, but I can't imagine an officer taking a man's life if he has the option to just let go.

I'm betting he was stuck, and I'm betting the driver knew he was there.

We ALL know the suspect should have stopped. If he did, if he obeyed the law, he would be alive today. Even if the officer made a bad decision that somehow led him to get stuck on the quad, the end result is a driver trying to flee, and the officer's life in danger because of it. The driver had multiple opportunities to avoid the situation, the officer had maybe one opportunity.

And, just so you know, in case you're ever faced with the situation, and officer never never never fires to "wound". You'll never be intentionally shot in the leg by a police officer. Deadly force is exactly that.

Very well said .

CBRSLIDER

06-30-2006, 09:45 PM

"You got it brother. Anyone else?"

Two Krispy Kreme glazed with sprinkles please.

The nonesense coming out of Rocketman is never ending. It is funny how I began to respond to this thread with the attitude of "hey we don't have all the facts so quit condemning the police officer." And I still contend that we don't have all the facts, so an educated opinion cannot be made at this point. But it seems that your delusional world where cops are out to get everyone, has bent you in a way that if a police officer is involved then he must be lieing. Oh well nothing I say will change your mind.

Now for my attitude problem... It is really hilarious how I am the one with the attitude problem because I am a cop and since the beginning you are the one with the attitude. I see it as a guilty person that has to deflect onto someone else their own problem. I then get blamed for the attitude when you are the one with the attitude. So I respond with a little humor and WOW I get chastized for being a power hungry cop. See the problem is I show respect for only so long then once I determine that you don't deserve my respect, which you don't, then I show none.

Since you seem relatively new around here, then you don't remember the notorious battles that 4punksdad and I used to have on here about police. See the difference is that we seem to have a respect for each other, where you are out in left field all by yourself. If anyone had a complaint about my attitude it should be him, not you, but if you are hooked on my attitude then maybe I'll pour some on. BUT I won't because that will stoop me to your level. So please don't confuse my confidence for attitude.

See I could careless what you think about me or any other police officer. Little do you know that you and your anti-cop club are actually in the minority. I have run into more people in my career that like police than those that don't like us. See once again you rely on the media for your belief that the country hates cops, but in my personal experience it is totally different. I deal with the public EVERYDAY and I get more thank you's and we appreciate your time and effort, than conflict from the public. That's even from people on traffic stops. So spew your gibberish about the country hating cops, it is going nowhere.

As for the media ending the coverage on this story. Funny thing, 106.9FM ran the story this moring at 0800hrs while I was driving to the store. WOW but I thought the conspiracy was to cover it up. You want the media to continue to cover a story that has little known facts. So if they continue to cover it day in and day out then they gotta get the information from somewhere, so they start taking and publishing OPINION. Which does nothing for this investigation other than spawn further misinformation. Which is the only thing that could help your cause, which is to attempt to cause public outcry.

AL Elks, where's my donuts!!!!??? I'm getting hungry. Funny thing about cops always being at the local donut shop, my county doesn't even have a donut shop:grr: . NOW That makes me mad!!

"I bet your town adores you!!! I am sure you do not have to many friends with that attitude."

We are not here to make friends through our work. But sometimes we make great friends because of our work. Heck I'm best friends with the judge, the D.A., the sheriff, etc......hee hee now that's funny. I very rarely hangout with the guys I work with. We are always working opposite shifts. So we must have friends somewhere that aren't cops. But raptorman swears that we surround ourselves with fellow badge happy people.

Oh well been fun reading this again. Hope it doesn't get closed. I should be back tomorrow night or sunday. Got to finish the top end rebuild and some other odds n ends, so it might be monday.

Later
Ray

Pappy

06-30-2006, 09:48 PM

Im coming to rays area and doing a nasty burn out infront of the donut shop:devil:

CBRSLIDER

06-30-2006, 09:50 PM

Dang it took me so long to type my last post I missed the new posts. Wilkins nice to hear from you. You always have a level head about situations. Also missed the door bell, so AL Elks is probably enjoying my donuts. Oh well so be it, looks like I'll fire me up some home made beer filled donuts. Anyone ever had a Staub filled donut. Popo, bet you'd like em.

Ray

Rocketman80

06-30-2006, 09:50 PM

How sad some of these statements are coming from police officers. Oh well.... Hey if you're picking up donuts wasting tax payer dollars you might as well grab me one while you're there.
Chocolate glazed please.... I'll just deduct it from my tax... think that will work? LOL You folks are too funny....
Let's not loose site of what the original thread is.
I see no one has any anwsers why they haven't release the cops name who did the shooting. Sorry I forgot.. there's double standard.

POPO I think it's great you catch people stealing quads. But why do you get off on the pain you've caused this individual. There's only pride in catching the criminal and thwarting the crime. There's no pride in hurting someone and if you are enjoying it, you need to find another career. Your statement shows you are happier making the person miserable not that you stopped the crime. You're an idiot and the perfect example of what police shouldn't be. You should probably post your name and what police agency you're working for so they can view this post you just made. Unless you're not willing to stand up for yourself. I would love to see you try to put me in the back of your cruiser.... LOL we'd see who's in the back crying like a little B*****. I would have to call your supervisor and let him know where I disarmed you and left you handcuffed to your car.
Ya know what's funny is that, it's cops like you that end up getting caught doing something illegal and thrown in jail with the same people you've arrested. Now that's justice!

CBRSLIDER

06-30-2006, 10:04 PM

Rocketman80, your frivilous gibberish never ceases to amaze me. You want a better society but in the same breath you scorn those that attempt to make it better and add nothing to assist, than your constant whining.

Your brazen and bold, but very stupid comments, show that you do not deserve any sort of real credence. You seem to want to do nothing but provoke a fight with one of us. I live by the following statement "if they ask for it don't disappoint them." Don't ask for it with your statements then moan about it when you get it. See the only place that you may be even remotely close to stating that I don't have to live by everyone elses rules is when I need to effect a lawful arrest, I don't have to play by your rules in arresting you. If you want to duke it out then I take it one step higher on the use of force. This has been granted to me by our state legislators. See I have one goal in mind at the beginning of my shift and that's to go home alive at the end. Like it or not that's how it is.

But back on task here, since you don't seem to be staying there.

Ray

Quad18star

06-30-2006, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman80
How sad some of these statements are coming from police officers. Oh well.... Hey if you're picking up donuts wasting tax payer dollars you might as well grab me one while you're there.
Chocolate glazed please.... I'll just deduct it from my tax... think that will work? LOL You folks are too funny....
Let's not loose site of what the original thread is.
I see no one has any anwsers why they haven't release the cops name who did the shooting. Sorry I forgot.. there's double standard.

POPO I think it's great you catch people stealing quads. But why do you get off on the pain you've caused this individual. There's only pride in catching the criminal and thwarting the crime. There's no pride in hurting someone and if you are enjoying it, you need to find another career. Your statement shows you are happier making the person miserable not that you stopped the crime. You're an idiot and the perfect example of what police shouldn't be. You should probably post your name and what police agency you're working for so they can view this post you just made. Unless you're not willing to stand up for yourself. I would love to see you try to put me in the back of your cruiser.... LOL we'd see who's in the back crying like a little B*****. I would have to call your supervisor and let him know where I disarmed you and left you handcuffed to your car.
Ya know what's funny is that, it's cops like you that end up getting caught doing something illegal and thrown in jail with the same people you've arrested. Now that's justice!

Chances are they haven't released his name yet because of an on going investigation .

Rocketman80

06-30-2006, 10:22 PM

CBRSLIDER

Don't try to paint a picture of who I am. You have no idea who I am or what I do. I'm not against police and I don't belong to any anti police club. Trust me I'm all for having police as long as they are doing their jobs, just like everyone else. And you can go on thinking that people who don't like the police are the minority. I disagree with you on that point and that's okay. And I think it's because people don't understand police or what you really do. And don't think I wouldn't understand if you were explain to me why police do what they do. It may give me and others a more understanding and sympathic opinion of police. But instead of taking a little time it's easier to just insult somebody. I'm sure if we met in person, you would see that I am the same as most of the people you meet in the general public. And I'm sure I wouldn't think you're such a dork either. But what happens here in posting is that I couldn't tell when you're joking or serious because there is a lack of expression in writing. I can't see if you're laughing while you're writing this stuff. I just thought you might be able to offer a little insite to what's going on with this tragedy because of your profession. BTW, I'm not new here, I've been around all the ATV sites for a long time. So I'm just going say that you and I may not be that different. We just don't understand each other. That's all. It doesn't have to be anymore than that... so don't read anything into it.
Yes I've a bad experience with police and it's helped shape my opinion. Do I think all police are that way? NO, I'm just trying to weed out where all the bad cops are so I can steer clear of it. I hope I never have an encounter with another bad cop again the rest of my life. I know if someone did wrong to me, like stealing my quad, I sure would hope that the police would be there to help. So don't think I hate cops... I don't. I just hate cops that abuse their power and authority and you should too, because that's what gives cops the bad rep. I hope this helps you better understand where I am coming from....

Pappy

06-30-2006, 10:30 PM

Here Ray, pass this around the coffee pot:scary:

Iliketogofast

06-30-2006, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by CBRSLIDER

See I could careless what you think about me or any other police officer. Little do you know that you and your anti-cop club are actually in the minority. I have run into more people in my career that like police than those that don't like us. See once again you rely on the media for your belief that the country hates cops, but in my personal experience it is totally different. I deal with the public EVERYDAY and I get more thank you's and we appreciate your time and effort, than conflict from the public. That's even from people on traffic stops. So spew your gibberish about the country hating cops, it is going nowhere.

Later
Ray

Uh... Do you really think people who you pull over like you? I always respond politely to the officer's face when I get pulled over, but the entire time all I think about is how much of an *** he is. The more we feed the ego, the better we will be treated in return. That's how it goes.

QuadRacer041

07-01-2006, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by MOFO
Before you or anyone else jump on the bandwagon with the kid, lets hear the entire story first.

The cop's are not always the bad guys...

tru dat tru dat

ak_stick

07-01-2006, 03:58 AM

AL Elks

07-01-2006, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Uh... Do you really think people who you pull over like you? I always respond politely to the officer's face when I get pulled over, but the entire time all I think about is how much of an *** he is. The more we feed the ego, the better we will be treated in return. That's how it goes.

Man I step away to get some donuts and miss everything. Story of my life.

I said it once and I'll say it again. It depends on your morals. I'm not perfect as I tend to drive 10 to 15mph over the speed limit. Actually I try to keep it down to 7mph over the speed limit now. I got tired of getting tickets. Whose fault was that? It was mine. Every single time I got stopped I had and felt nothing but respect for the officer who stopped me. I was the one breaking the law and I deserved the ticket. He did exactly what I expected of him. He inforced the law. By the way I really don't see your logic. You get stopped for something, the police officer is giving you a ticket and you're thing he's an ***. Where's the logic in that. Oh I see you are pre-judging by your beliefs that the only police officers that are as**s are the ones who stop you from breaking the law. That doesn't compute!

Anyway I'm back with the donuts. Sorry it took so long but you kow how it is, there were a ton of police officers there and we all know of course how they like their donuts. JK

I brought hot coffee too!

By the way don't worry I didn't waste any of the taxpayers money as I am and have never been a police officer. They have to put up with too much BS for me.

I'd be curious to know. Of all those individuals who are complaining about the police how many times have you had a runin with them. If you had a runin with them how many times were you cuffed, and if you were cuffed how many times were you arrested.

Of course I don't expect to get the truth here as there are a few how don't mind breaking the law and owning up to it by doing the right thing and taking their lumps.

Humor me!

NorCalRacer

07-01-2006, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Rocketman80
How sad some of these statements are coming from police officers. Oh well.... Hey if you're picking up donuts wasting tax payer dollars you might as well grab me one while you're there.
Chocolate glazed please.... I'll just deduct it from my tax... think that will work? LOL You folks are too funny....
Let's not loose site of what the original thread is.
I see no one has any anwsers why they haven't release the cops name who did the shooting. Sorry I forgot.. there's double standard.

POPO I think it's great you catch people stealing quads. But why do you get off on the pain you've caused this individual. There's only pride in catching the criminal and thwarting the crime. There's no pride in hurting someone and if you are enjoying it, you need to find another career. Your statement shows you are happier making the person miserable not that you stopped the crime. You're an idiot and the perfect example of what police shouldn't be. You should probably post your name and what police agency you're working for so they can view this post you just made. Unless you're not willing to stand up for yourself. I would love to see you try to put me in the back of your cruiser.... LOL we'd see who's in the back crying like a little B*****. I would have to call your supervisor and let him know where I disarmed you and left you handcuffed to your car.
Ya know what's funny is that, it's cops like you that end up getting caught doing something illegal and thrown in jail with the same people you've arrested. Now that's justice!

Come on now armchair warrior, stick to reality. Take your delusional mentality elsewhere, this may be the internet but we're trying to stay in the real world here. I, as well, would love to see POPO shove you in his cruiser, simply for entertainment value!!
Damn cops, driving up the price of donuts!!!
Oh yeah, if the cops aren't making the thieves cry like *****es I sure hope someone else is, we need to remind people of the order of things all too often..

Iliketogofast

07-01-2006, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by AL Elks

Humor me!

Okay. Your title is spelled wrong. It's De Oppresso Liber, not De Opresso Liber.

AL Elks

07-01-2006, 08:17 AM

Ever been in a grocery store and watched how some parents TRY and dicipline their kids? How many times have you seen a little rug rat showing his ### by yelling and screaming at his parents because he wants something. Now I know we've all seen this one. Mom just keeps saying "Bobby, I told you to stop" as little bobby is tearing into a serial box. If he'd of been mine i'd of busted his little rear end.

I have NEVER had a problem with either my kids or my grandkids in a store and guess what my grand-son is 8 years old and I've never had to spank him. Now my grand-daugher is another story. I had to let her know who was boss a few times. I don't have problems with them because they know that when I told them no it meant no. I didn't keep telling them that I was going to bust their butt and never do it. I immediately busted their butt.

Now apply that to the law enforcement profession. Let's say some WWF wrestler size guy is beating the crap out of you and an officer pulls up. Do you want him to act like the mom "Oh sir you really need to stop that or I"m going to put you in time out, sir I said you need to stop that, OK I'm going to count to 3, 1, 2, sir, you really should stop". Or do you want him to act like a person with a postion of authority and power. Same applies with the military. You never bring a knife to a gunfight.

Iliketogofast

07-01-2006, 08:17 AM

I think it's funny that we're all trying to make eachother look stupid, while most of the people who have debated in the thread are intelligent.

AL Elks

07-01-2006, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Okay. Your title is spelled wrong. It's De Oppresso Liber, not De Opresso Liber.

Thanks,

Boy don't I feel stupid now.

NOT!

You see I told you I wasn't perfect. I see you finally did your homework and started checking into the type of individuals you are talking to. I'm impressed!

Now here's a quick pop quiz. What does it mean?

Iliketogofast

07-01-2006, 08:22 AM

Thanks.

What makes it even better, though, is that I found the correct spelling directly underneath your misspelling - in your avatar. :D

It's freeing the oppressed... A special forces motto.

It translates directly into "To free the oppressed" - from Latin.

AL Elks

07-01-2006, 08:28 AM

WOW! Chalk another one up for you. Give that man a gold star. Are you starting to feel a little better about yourself now? Can I do anything else for you? You know, Wipe your nose, give you a shoulder to cry on?

So now you know a little something about me. I served for over 20 years and am damn proud of it. I put my ### on the line just like the police officers that are posting here except they do it every single day and they DEFINATELY deserve our respect. Once again if you know of one that is crooked then do something about it.

I'd be the first one to tell you that if I knew of a crooked cop I would not hesitate to do something about it. Right is right and wrong is wrong. It doesn't matter who you are or what position of authority you are in.

NorCalRacer

07-01-2006, 08:31 AM

Most of the cops, however, just wave at me as I go by. [/B][/QUOTE]

How many fingers do they use?:blah:

AL Elks

07-01-2006, 08:40 AM

So now that you know a little about me. How about enlightening us with some info about yourself other than the fact you don't hesitate to break the law and not own up to it and the fact that you absolutely can not stand police officers.

By the way since I retired I still am doing my part to help this great country of ours as I am still teaching SF soldiers specialized skills.

What have you done for society or to make this world a better place?

Iliketogofast

07-01-2006, 09:02 AM

I just completed high school. I'm going to college in August - the beginning of a 4-year venture. (sigh...)

I'll be studying to become a writer. I hope to make the world a better place by delivering the truth to the public's front door.

I may, as a first job, try and get a job writing for a powersports publication like Dirt Wheels. Everyone complains about how bad the writing is, and for good reason... It sucks. At least that will make it easier for me to work my way in.

I spend my time "working" on my quad. In my case, "working" on it usually consists of the repetitive task of disassembling it, cleaning it and putting it back together, sometimes twice a day (I get bored). I secured the R that I have today by trading a 400EX and my brother's old LT160... Very decent trade, IMO.

As you've discovered already, I have a problem with authority. Don't mistake my admission as an advertisement, however. I'm in no way proud of it -I actually see it as a fault. I just can't take people telling me what to do.

There's not much more, besides the tedious details.

Oh yeah - it would be cool to hear about your duties as an SF unit. I like military stories.

AL Elks

07-01-2006, 11:19 AM

Well I spent 6 1/2 years in 5th SF and 6 years in 7th SF. In 5th I traveled all over the Middle East. In 7th I traveled all over South America. I also taught at the John F Kennedy Special Warfare and School for 6 years (3 active duty from 91-95 and 3 as a contract instructor from 2002-2005.

At least you can see that you have a fault. That's a start. Trust me I have my faults too. As you grow older you'll grow wiser and see the error of your ways. Now is the time to start working on it though. Life is so much easier if you are honest and up front with everyone. You'll gain so much more respect from everyone you deal with (doesn't matter what walk of life they are from).

I'm not one for politics myself . That's why my only goal in the Army was to be a Master Seargeant and have my own Specail Forces team. I never wanted to make Sergean Major as there are just too many politics involved I tell it like it is.

Anyway this has been a very interesting discussion.

Now let's see how things turn out with the ATV rider that was shot.

popo

07-01-2006, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast

As you've discovered already, I have a problem with authority. Don't mistake my admission as an advertisement, however. I'm in no way proud of it -I actually see it as a fault. I just can't take people telling me what to do.

May I make a suggestion to help overcome your problem with authority.

The Marines,Army,Air Force & Navy would be willing to assist you. They even go out of thier way to paint fancy foot silhouettes on the pavement to help with your exit from the bus.

AL Elks

07-01-2006, 11:47 AM

Actually POPO has a point. I have seen countless individuals who before the Army were just not sure what life was all about. After serving a few years it definately matures you. You get to se a whole different world than you are used to. I know I had to kick my son out of the house when he was 20. He just decided he didn't want to live by my rules or do something with his life. Well he joined the National guard, went to war and found out what the real world was like (crash course). He didn't talk to me for about a year when I kicked him out. We are now best of buds. He openly admits that he was going nowhere fast.

It actually a viable option and they also have some excellent college benefits. My son is in college as we speak and is doing GREAT.

AL Elks

07-01-2006, 11:50 AM

Hey POPO. When I joined up and we got off the bus at bootcamp the first thing they did was take a guy out of formation that had an attitude, walk around the building with him and beat the crap out of him. That got everyones attention real quick. Of course now it's a gentler, kinder army. Heck for awhile there they were handing out timeout cards. Yep you heard right timeout cards. If a soldier started feeling stressed he could hould out the timeout card and they couldn't yell at him.

What's the world coming to. Next we will start having to tuck them in.

Iliketogofast

07-01-2006, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by popo
May I make a suggestion to help overcome your problem with authority.

The Marines,Army,Air Force & Navy would be willing to assist you. They even go out of thier way to paint fancy foot silhouettes on the pavement to help with your exit from the bus.

I'm not made for that kind of manual labor :p

Anyways, I'd just end up quitting or killing myself. I'm not stable enough to have somebody screaming at me from the second I wake to the second I close my eyes to sleep. :ermm:

knighttime

07-01-2006, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
I'm not made for that kind of manual labor :p

Anyways, I'd just end up quitting or killing myself. I'm not stable enough to have somebody screaming at me from the second I wake to the second I close my eyes to sleep. :ermm:

lol, go and rent the movie Full Metal Jacket, you will love it :eek2:

Iliketogofast

07-01-2006, 07:49 PM

I've seen it!

CBRSLIDER

07-01-2006, 09:28 PM

Man I think we wore each other out here. Seems that we have got alot of frustration out on each other. Rocketman and I seem to have come to an understanding and some of the other's here have seemed to also.

Pappy, already had that picture hanging up in the patrol room about a month ago. Made me howl!!!! I love seeing stuff like that. Heck I even like hearing cop jokes.

Take care everyone. If anyone hears an update on the investigation please let us know. Maybe next time we won't start world war III on here. And since so many of you have expressed such interest in the police, both good and bad, when we have our next policemans ball I'll send ya all tickets. oh wait sorry my falt policemen don't have balls.:D

Ray

07-01-2006, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by CBRSLIDER
And since so many of you have expressed such interest in the police, both good and bad, when we have our next policemans ball I'll send ya all tickets. oh wait sorry my falt policemen don't have balls.:D

Ray

How many women do you have on your force? Age, status, willing to get drunk?

CBRSLIDER

07-01-2006, 09:49 PM

"MrMan:How many women do you have on your force?"

Funny you should ask that... I work for the State Police and up until just about a month ago we have not had a female trooper at my barracks since I got there 9 years ago. We just had our first female come in from the academy. She's pretty cool and seems to be able to do the job just fine. Not sure about the other questions that you asked about, other than she is married. I think I heard her telling someone that she drinks Budweiser beer. Made me feel like a whimp only drinking BudLight. hee hee.

Ray

wilkin250r

07-01-2006, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman80
I just hate cops that abuse their power and authority

This one made me laugh.

Sure, there are some cops that are jerks. If you're caught doing 75 in a 55, some cops may only give you a warning. Some cops may write a ticket for 65 in a 55.

And yes, some cops will write a ticket for 75 in a 55, AND that crack in your windshield, AND your broken taillight, AND an obscure license plate. Just to make matters worse, he'll take a half hour doing it, just to piss you off.

But here is where personal responsibility comes in. You got a problem with it, then don't put yourself in the situation. It's pretty easy to avoid. Fix your taillight, fix your windshield, or better yet (this is the real key), don't be doing 75 in a 55, and that cop won't ever have the chance to be a prick.

I can almost guarantee you that ANY conflict that happens between you and a prick cop was started by YOU!!! You were speeding, you were riding your quad on the road, you were doing something illegal.

And the lesson goes further than cops. Until you start to take responsibility for your own actions, you'll be forever blaming other people for all the problems in your life. It's not your fault you didn't get promoted, it's your boss. It's not your fault you got that ticket, the cop was a prick. It's not your fault, it's always someone else.

07-01-2006, 11:11 PM

When my brother drove his old truck, it had a lift on it. Even though it was legal for him to have it, one certain cop would pull him over and warn him about it and give him all these other stupid warnings like he didn't have his seatbelt on (but he did, when the cop passed him and when he was speaking to him), and too many people in the truck for his age. That last warning was after my brother showed his license. My brother was 17 at the time and the only law in Illinois about being too young to have 2 other passengers in a vehichle outside of your family is younger than 16 and 6 months. But I'm sorry, he must have had a good reason for giving him these warnings, now didn't he? And no, he didn't smart off because I was there with him.

07-01-2006, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by CBRSLIDER
"MrMan:How many women do you have on your force?"

Funny you should ask that... I work for the State Police and up until just about a month ago we have not had a female trooper at my barracks since I got there 9 years ago. We just had our first female come in from the academy. She's pretty cool and seems to be able to do the job just fine. Not sure about the other questions that you asked about, other than she is married. I think I heard her telling someone that she drinks Budweiser beer. Made me feel like a whimp only drinking BudLight. hee hee.

Ray

Just when I thought I was going to get good with the police...:(

juiced450r

07-02-2006, 01:48 PM

Here is an interesting story for you guys. We had a drag race last night and on the way home we were the first on the seen of an accident. Two cars collided head on in the road. Both were flipped on their sides. We helped the passengers out of the vehicles and made sure everyone was allright. So the police got their right as we were helping them. One guy had a pretty good gash on his arm. The first officer comes directly up there and says "Everyone back in your cars you have no business being up here." I guess we should have just left them in their cars and not helped them? It is just instinct for me to help someone that needs it. Anyways it took about an hour and a half to get it cleaned up. A bunch of us were just outside talking not causing any trouble. One of the firefighters came back and told us to get in our cars. My buddy asked him if everyone was allright. Immediately the guy rudely replies "It is none of your business, don't worry about it!" I immediatly told him he don't have to get all loud and started on my way to my truck. He then yells "do you have a problem, we can solve this right now" staring to get into my face like I am going to back down. I just told him again it is unnecessary to be rude. He again said we can solve this right now if I would like. I told him to take his uniform off and I would be happy to. Then it came out, "I am an officer for the state police!" like a bada**. I asked him if he would like an applause or medal. By that time my buddies were pushing me backwards trying to get me back to my truck. His jaw dropped as I told him to F*** OFF as I was being pushed away. I am not trying to sound bad but that was completely unnecessary on his part. I realize he was cleaning up the accident (actually he was just sitting there bullsh*tting) but come on we were just concerned about the victims of the accident. They were good people. I thought it was sh*tty of him and I let him know it. I will be curious to hear from all the police on this site and listen to how they take his side and kiss his A**.

I also won the four stroke open class out of 30 bikes double elimination!!!!!!!:D

MOFO

07-02-2006, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by juiced450r
Here is an interesting story for you guys. We had a drag race last night and on the way home we were the first on the seen of an accident. Two cars collided head on in the road. Both were flipped on their sides. We helped the passengers out of the vehicles and made sure everyone was allright. So the police got their right as we were helping them. One guy had a pretty good gash on his arm. The first officer comes directly up there and says "Everyone back in your cars you have no business being up here." I guess we should have just left them in their cars and not helped them? It is just instinct for me to help someone that needs it. Anyways it took about an hour and a half to get it cleaned up. A bunch of us were just outside talking not causing any trouble. One of the firefighters came back and told us to get in our cars. My buddy asked him if everyone was allright. Immediately the guy rudely replies "It is none of your business, don't worry about it!" I immediatly told him he don't have to get all loud and started on my way to my truck. He then yells "do you have a problem, we can solve this right now" staring to get into my face like I am going to back down. I just told him again it is unnecessary to be rude. He again said we can solve this right now if I would like. I told him to take his uniform off and I would be happy to. Then it came out, "I am an officer for the state police!" like a bada**. I asked him if he would like an applause or medal. By that time my buddies were pushing me backwards trying to get me back to my truck. His jaw dropped as I told him to F*** OFF as I was being pushed away. I am not trying to sound bad but that was completely unnecessary on his part. I realize he was cleaning up the accident (actually he was just sitting there bullsh*tting) but come on we were just concerned about the victims of the accident. They were good people. I thought it was sh*tty of him and I let him know it. I will be curious to hear from all the police on this site and listen to how they take his side and kiss his A**.

I also won the four stroke open class out of 30 bikes double elimination!!!!!!!:D

Personally, you sound like a little punk that needs his head smacked around. Just because some guy might be having a bad night does NOT give you the right to make a big fuss about it. When they said leave, you should have left. They are there to work, not make YOU happy. Answering to YOU is not their priority! Instead of leaving like they asked, you stuck around trying to be a tough guy... yea, thats cool! :rolleyes:

I also call BS on you telling a police officer to "F-OFF"... if that is true, YOU honestly have some issues that need dealt with. One of these days this attitude will land you in jail or on the floor.

BTW, I'm closing this thread. It has run its course and now your just trolling for trouble.

Pappy

07-16-2006, 09:43 PM

anyone find out anymore? i searched the news website and found no news relating to this issue.

LT80

07-17-2006, 07:57 AM

Nothing here.

antipickle

09-16-2006, 02:29 AM

Here's the story

The police stopped Bradley and a friend by the road, to question them... Bradley tried to get away (probably had drugs) when one of the officers grabbed the atv to try and stop him (hah). His friend said 'stop it's not Bucky' before the cop shot Bradley in the back four times (I'm assuming the he let go first).

Everyone listening over the scanner heard one of the officers say 'I think we got Bucky'

Bradley got away before he fell off into a field somewhere, and called friends and family on his cell phone, he knew he was dying. They showed up and the police wouldn't let anyone near for an hour while he was bleeding to death.

His friend was beaten and taken to the hospital, no visitors allowed. (can't have him talking)

they're holding a trial to decide whether or not to charge the trooper (after shooting someone fleeing four times in the back)

no mention in any news about them letting him bleed to death for an hour or beating his friend so bad he was hospitalized.......

here's an insteresting link on news I just found while trying to find info about the cop's trial http://tvnewslies.org

jcv400ex

09-16-2006, 06:47 AM

Back to the original point......if he would not have fleed, he would still be alive.....

Harsh, but true.:(

And here's the story:

MAYVILLE, NEW YORK — Although it’s not definite, it appears the case involving a state trooper who shot and killed a Silver Creek man will go before a grand jury.

Bradley A. Horton, 25, of Silver Creek was killed June 25 by a state trooper while riding an all-terrain vehicle in Sheridan. Foley was brought to the scene within a few hours of the incident and immediately began investigating. On Wednesday, Chautauqua County District Attorney David Foley said his investigation is continuing. Foley expects a decision to be made by the end of the summer.

‘‘I’ll be wrapping it (the investigation) up in a month to six weeks. Then I’ll be in a position to know if we’re going to proceed. It may be later, it may be sooner,’’ Foley said.

Reports were that the trooper was dragged by Horton for a mile before he pulled out his weapon and shot Horton four times. The trooper has not been identified. State police have not commented on the situation, other than to say the trooper who shot Horton is presently off duty because of his injuries.

‘‘From the instant this happened, this became a major priority,’’ he said.

Some of Horton’s family and friends have criticized state police, claiming the officer shot Horton because Horton was mistaken for Ralph ‘‘Bucky’’ Phillips, the Erie County Correctional Facility escapee who allegedly shot a state trooper June 10.

Foley said he has interviewed most of the necessary people, but he does have a few followup interviews to conduct.

‘‘I’m waiting on several things — the final autopsy report, the accident reconstruction report. I anticipate we’ll have those in the next couple of weeks,’’ he said.

Once he has those reports and the evidence is processed, Foley said he will make a determination on whether to bring the case before a grand jury, which seems likely.

‘‘Right now I believe there are enough questions that would justify a presentation to a grand jury,’’ he said. ‘‘I haven’t made that decision yet, but at this point there’s nothing to indicate there shouldn’t be one.’’

By law, grand juries are held in secret. A grand jury weighs the evidence to determine whether there is enough evidence that charges should be issued. If a grand jury does determine there is enough evidence, the unidentified trooper would be formally arrested and charged.

‘‘What’s going to be important is the receipt of the autopsy and accident investigation,’’ Foley said.

antipickle

09-16-2006, 01:33 PM

they added the 'trooper was dragged for a mile' part to give him
a reason for shooting him... all he had were a couple scratches.

if you were dragged for a mile, do you think you could shoot
someone? and have only a couple scratches?

and there's nothing in the news about his friend being arrested and hospitalized because he tried to run away

bearmde

09-16-2006, 01:52 PM

I am a police officer. I DID not read the entire thread, because so much is unknown. I do know that in every profession, there are bad apples, the police profession included. I also know that the majority of police officers that I have dealt with are professional and courteous to their partners, public and most people. An officer is trained in many aspects of aggression, tactics, dialect, weapons etc, etc. Why did he grab the atv, only he knows. Why only minor injuries, I would imagine he had a bullett proof vest on that could withstand most of the dragging injuries. Why did he not let go..could have been caught somehow. Why did he shoot..I can guarantee, If I was that officer and in the same circumstance, WITH THE FACTS THAT are known, I would have done the same thing. A police officer wants one thing at the end of his shift...and that is to finish it...un harmed and return to his/her family. If you have had run-ins with the law, stop and think...DID you or a party involved escalate the situation till the police officer had to become a "butthead". I am not saying that is always the case, but in MOST cases, the responsible party is the reason that the officer had to escalate the situation. I have seen it thousands of times.

As far as deadly force, right to shoot/not to shoot...lets just put it this way....probably 98% of what you see on television...is NOT how it is taught in police academy's. So all the people that are out their complaining about what the police did or did not do...they are plenty of openings in police forces all across the United States.

In this situation..I do not know all the facts...I hope it works out for all involved...If the officer was over the line...He will be brought to justice...I am not taking sides or placing blame, I am just stating my opinion. Before anyone jumps to conclusions about what was done/not done, what is right/not right..that is why we have the balance and checks in our judicial system. It is as close to fair as we can come at this point in society. Do grand juries, judges, lawyers make mistakes...sure they do...We are human and always will. Like I said I DID not read every page, so much of this might have been hashed out already...I just saw a little and had to respond. I hope it works out, and am sorry for the loss to the family.