Time flies, parts change blah blah blah

[Pappy]

It had been almost a year since I had attended a GNCC race, and it gave me a new perspective on a few things.

Since the 2004 Honda 450R and YFZ hit the market the manufactures involvement made it possible for a "Win on Sunday Sell on Monday" scenario. I can understand the thinking behind that well used sales pitch, but how true is it these days? Walking down Pro row and taking a gander at the different quads sitting where full on aftermarkets quads once ruled the roost got me to thinking of the similairities of todays racer versus Nascar. We all know that a Chevrolet Monte Carlo stands no chance of performing as well as its on track counter part, but is not the reasoning behind the manufactures involvement in the sport......to gain information for improvements on the production models?

With that thought in mind, I started looking at how far and distant todays race quads are compared to a showroom stocker. Axis and Elka shocks, Houser and ARFX suspension, Stabilizers, Tire balls and the list goes on. Now, knowing how well these products work is no secret, but how does it help say Yamaha improve the YFZ when its main rider has few stock parts left on the quad:p Atleast last season we saw a stock swing arm on Ballance's YFZ but this year it is replaced with a nice aftermarket piece. Not that i wouldnt want Bill on the components that give him every chance to compete, but how does that all equal out to the average guy who buys a YFZ because thats what the champ runs? I will let you ponder that, and I look forward to some of the replies.

Now the engines, I do not know if it is stock or prepped by one of the many builders involved in these racing programs. I would hope the manufactures are atleast involved in the R&D with these builders so that improvements could be benficial to all affected. Riding a Honda backed quad with an engine who's only parts remain stock are the side cases lends little credibility to Honda in my eye's. Again, this is a point to reflect on and I would love to see if Honda or Yamaha is actually part of it all or merely in a position to hand over needed parts and claim victory when and if the rider and quad win.

Moving on to other areas got me thinking of shocks. I saw several shock builders there but when I saw the quads they put forth to do battle, non had anything that appeared like a stock rebuild that has become all the rage. I would think that if you can claim they work that good then you would have a rider or two in contention for a win running these. I did see plenty on a lot of B and C class quads, but none on Pro Row. I know it is a stretch, but just something I took note of. Again, I would want my rider using the best shocks available wether they were worked over or not.

Tires and Tire balls were about the closest thing I could see that resembled something that one could walk away from a race and claim that indeed, every rider could benefit from in some form or another. Tire manufactures are testing and watching almost every level of competition and improvements are seen and felt. Brands not withstanding, I was glad to see continued evidence of getting racers and pleasure riders alike a product that works the best no matter what level you are. I reckon tires are an easy product to see the improvements.

Back to the quads themselves. Walking away from Pro row gets you back into a real world scenario and the mix of differing set up's. From stockers to machines that could take thier place on pro row, the products pushed on Pro row had made thier way to every class where they are permitted. If you can think up a possible combination of parts, you could find it if you looked around. Chatting with riders about different products and how well they worked got me the usual responses. "These are the best arms I have ever run" which I follwed up with "How many different sets have you tried besides stock?". This usually got me that deer in the headlights look as I bid good day to another parking lot salesman. I did find those that had a working knowledge of the parts they ran, and enough racing expierence to make me feel comfortable with the feedback they were giving me. I did hear alot of the same complaints on certain areas, especially the frames on the newer quads. Maybe that should have been an area where the manufactures involvement could have focused a wee bit harder dont you think! Maybe someone from the factories will read my rambling and run down to the boys in R&D and kick a few rear ends. I mean after all, you guys have decided that colored frames sell quads, now how about building a frame that wont break in 3 rides!

Who would think that in just shy of a year we would see the growth in our sport. You can not open a magazine, attend a race or watch on TV....thats right, TV without hearing and seeing the factories revel in their new found glory. As quads mainstream the hype will grow even more. Out of the box race ready...yeah...if the box has Leagers on it:p Suzuki's latest attempt at a factory available race bike is in the limelight now, so I will watch its progress and see if they have learned anything from those who have been beating the "Showroom Racer" montra to its fullest:D

Think of what I have posted here the next time you browse a magazine ad and read how the latest quad comes fully equipped with "Race Tuned" suspension.

Just food for thought:)

[Mxjunkie]

Very good write up! :cool:

[trx400exxracer]

very good write up me my dad and brother were talking about this today:D

Yes very well write up. I agree

i hope the sport progresses the same way mountain biking has.

[popo]

Originally posted by Pappy
I but how does it help say Yamaha improve the YFZ when its main rider has few stock parts left on the quad:p Atleast last season we saw a stock swing arm on Ballance's YFZ but this year it is replaced with a nice aftermarket piece. Not that i wouldnt want Bill on the components that give him every chance to compete, but how does that all equal out to the average guy who buys a YFZ because thats what the champ runs? I will let you ponder that, and I look forward to some of the replies.


Cool write up Papp. Thou you may have seen that state of the art, first on the market Ars/FX swingarm. You'll notice out of the other 200-300 2006 Yfz's 99% still run the stock swingarm. Put a linkage and tune the shock to your specs, it will out perform any aftermarket swing arm.

It's interesting 2 years ago a 250R was a common site. Now you might see 5.

[trx400exxracer]

back in 2002 250r's were the thang and then mid-season 2003 of gncc everyone was experimenting with 4-strokes

[Pappy]

Originally posted by popo
Put a linkage and tune the shock to your specs, it will out perform any aftermarket swing arm.



exactly my point. with yamahas heavy involvement why should there be a need to change it, it should be "fixed" on the 07 model that was released tonight:p (i am refering to the linkage)

[gbcap]

Just like in any form of racing, unless you are restricted to stay stock on any or all components there will be people modding thier machines. It is impossible for the factories to make a bike that will suit everyone for every form/style of riding/racing. They all want to customize thier look as well as performance. I don't see the factories going out of thier way in the near future to make thier quads much more 'race ready' then they already are now. Maybe they could add a few things that everyone does when they have the resources like steering stabilizers. I can't imagine running the stock class at a race like wisp without one. I run the precision and I still had the bars ripped from my hands twice this race. Hand guards, tires, and wheels are all things they might have 'dealer options' like you do with a car. work out something ITP and Maxxis to have sets ready for bikes at certain dealers. this would allow you to slightly customize your quad off the showroom floor without having to dump alot of omney into it right away. youcould roll it right into the loan and save some cash with discounts too. also they need to beef up protection as an option. those flimsy skid plates last a whole 20 minutes before they are trashed!

[popo]

Originally posted by Pappy
exactly my point. with yamahas heavy involvement why should there be a need to change it, it should be "fixed" on the 07 model that was released tonight:p (i am refering to the linkage)

Well a Honda or Suzuki linkage is not any better.

[Tommy 17]

the funny thing is thou pappy that the bikes are no better then the quads when it comes to aftermarket parts and being extremly far from stock... yeah the factories are a lil more involved with the bikes but they really don't change much on them to make them lik the pros bikes...

NOTHING is the same on RCs bike or stewarts or any of them compared to a stock one... 90% of it is aftermarket just like the pro quads... heck atleast for the pro quad riders u can buy the identical suspension... u can't even get the 50mm suspension the pro MX guys have...

[trick450r]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
the funny thing is thou pappy that the bikes are no better then the quads when it comes to aftermarket parts and being extremly far from stock... yeah the factories are a lil more involved with the bikes but they really don't change much on them to make them lik the pros bikes...

NOTHING is the same on RCs bike or stewarts or any of them compared to a stock one... 90% of it is aftermarket just like the pro quads... heck atleast for the pro quad riders u can buy the identical suspension... u can't even get the 50mm suspension the pro MX guys have...


yes but when you look at a pro mx bike...and a pro mx quad which looks closer to what you can buy off a showroom floor...im sure some people look at pro MX bikes and can only see different graphics from a stocker...yet the same person could look at a pro quad and not even know who makes it.

[coryatver]

We all know that a Chevrolet Monte Carlo stands no chance of performing as well as its on track counter part, but is not the reasoning behind the manufactures involvement in the sport......to gain information for improvements on the production models?

Nascar cars definity are not for gaining information for improvements... they are nothing like a real car. There basically just to get there name out there and brag about wins in commercals. I don't even think there is much difference between the different company's cars. I hope ATV racing doesn't become like that.

Also I don't believe any quad today is race ready. Race ready quads have been tried such as cannondale which was pretty race ready and people just don't buy enough to make money off of it.

And ballance running ars-fx swingarm, that could be just part of his deal with that particular sponsorer, that he needs to run there stuff. I would not be surprised if some pros run some equipment that is not even needed so they can pay the bills and make a living. I would too.

And stock rebuilds, I am sure they work great but if I was planning on racing seriously, aftermarket long travel is the only way to go. I mean even the guy that won the class I raced in at the wisp, 4-stroke C 16-21 had long travel shocks and probley tire balls.

Basically, if you want to be competitive, a stock quad is not race ready as the manufactures make it seem. The media hypes it up big time! I think most people will agree that it cost just as much to build a new quad as it did the old hybred 250rs. But it makes it nice for the casual racer to go out and try his luck once in a while and have some fun. There quad won't be competitive but at least there are quads available that can actually make it around the track. Before the only quad you could buy was the yamaha warrior? Take that around the track a couple times it will break in half.

I think it is funny how the factory race teams try to make there quads look as stock as possible. They sure do look stock to a lot of people. But if you know what you are looking at there is like nothing stock left. My dad was saying, man those can-am quad run. He said "Those machines are the machine to buy!" I couldn't beleive how well the marketing works even on my dad! I was like ya dad just last year the same couple guys were kicking everyones butts on Kawasaki's!

And the painted frames or so called special edition quads that manufactures are coming out with.. what jokes. 400 more bucks for different paint and stickers??? right...

[Pappy]

Originally posted by popo
Well a Honda or Suzuki linkage is not any better.

Again, thanks for supporting my point:p I used Yamaha but you could simply replace it with Honda or Suzuki as both are "factory" support to quite a few teams. I do understand that the 06 Honda has alot of the issues addressed and a link isnt needed, just a shock revalve(rear) My point is where are the improvements from thier involvement with the racing programs?

[Warnerade]

Originally posted by coryatver
Also I don't believe any quad today is race ready. Race ready quads have been tried such as cannondale which was pretty race ready and people just don't buy enough to make money off of it... I am beating built quads every time i roll my bike out onto the starting gates...and my LT-R is pretty much stock...

[jcsact]

Isn't it funny how every one runs the best of everything. I don't think people like to get there feelings hurt when they made a choice because it had a cool color. :D

I agree Pappy if they are trying to support the sport make these bikes bullet proof. But then they would get to sell parts. But also the pros will run a aftermarket part if they are getting them free and possibly getting paid to use them if it doesn't take anything from there performance just so that company will sell parts.

I did have one racer be honest with me one time when I was talking to him about something that was on his quad. I asked him if he seen any benifit from a certain part and he said "It looks nice doesn't it." He had a big smile under that big bushy mustache. :)

[Pappy]

I wasnt meaning to bring specific names or parts into it (ballance and the swing arm etc)

I just thought that if i am a factory handing out support and quads (4 to 5 a year from what I have been told) that I would want feedback on MY product:p

Reading Borichs interview in this months atvinsider he claims they have no need to gusset thier frames....I reckon not if its used ofr a few races then sold:p The bad part about that is alot of folks will forgo having it done and they WILL crack! (thats an exapmle, im not bashing borich etc)

The frames to me are the worst junk on the quads,I would think that after 3 years of "Pro" support they would see there is an issue and fix it if indeed they are getting the info from the teams!

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Pappy


I just thought that if i am a factory handing out support and quads (4 to 5 a year from what I have been told) that I would want feedback on MY product:p

!

That's what I would want also .

How good of feedback can you get from a Pro racer on a set of stock a-arms or swingarm , when it's the first thing the racer takes off when he or she gets their quad ??

I think the Factories should shift their attention towards the Stock class instead of the Pro class . These are the guys that would actually be able to tell you what needs improvement and why it needs it . Add a set of nerf bars and a killswitch and race it the way it is . They'll get feedback they need from riders of all shapes and sizes ... everything from the guy that weighs 120lbs to the guy that weighs 250lbs .... the short guys and the tall guys .

I love it when you read an ad from a manufacturer and it says " Buy Yamaha and be in the winners circle like Ballance" ( just using him as an example)

Sure buy a Yamaha , then add 20K in extra parts , then you might be on par with Bill .

[Pappy]

and a year later, what has changed...lol

[Jersey450R]

Originally posted by Pappy
and a year later, what has changed...lol

nuthin' :o

[Outlaw 50]

Originally posted by Pappy


I just thought that if i am a factory handing out support and quads (4 to 5 a year from what I have been told) that I would want feedback on MY product:p



From what I can tell the only company that runs a stock quad is Polaris.

Next time you are at the track take a close look at the Outlaw525 ridden by Bryan Baker. Aside from bumpers, nerfs, tires and wheels its a stock quad that anyone can go and buy at the dealer.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Outlaw 50
From what I can tell the only company that runs a stock quad is Polaris.

Next time you are at the track take a close look at the Outlaw525 ridden by Bryan Baker. Aside from bumpers, nerfs, tires and wheels its a stock quad that anyone can go and buy at the dealer.

i would have mentioned that but seeing the BS that was developing with Smiley on that model, I figured I wouldnt stir the pot.....btw, how is Baker fairing on it:chinese:

[Outlaw 50]

Not well against the other "factory" teams. lol

[gbcap]

i would love to see you take a 'showroom' bike and put it against bubba or charmicheal and see how it fairs. NOTHING is factory at that level of competition. even STOCK car racing is tube chassis and fiberglass bodies.

[gbcap]

Originally posted by Outlaw 50
From what I can tell the only company that runs a stock quad is Polaris.

Next time you are at the track take a close look at the Outlaw525 ridden by Bryan Baker. Aside from bumpers, nerfs, tires and wheels its a stock quad that anyone can go and buy at the dealer.

the reason it is stock is no one is stupid enough to make parts for a bike that is going to fail anyway. it would just be wasted r&d:p

[cr977]

i almost wish that the rules would change to where in the c, beginner, and other lower classes you cannot run any mods beyond cosmetic/tires, simple stuff, that way, you could not have the guys with +4 everything, along with extensive motor mods top of the line pipe k&n filter and then they have 120 octane race gas runnin through there bikes, you know the guy, he show up with the amazing bike and no skills but everyone else is running stock 300exs warriors, he shows up and dominates every weekend because he has more money, i hate that so much. and then you should only be allowed to have so much as far as engine mods, extended no more than 2 inches, aftermarket suspension allowed, pipe/filter legal but no race gas no more than 96 octane. then pro is open, that makes it fair for everyone, no matter how big or small your wallet is. that way the guy that would be last if not for his 15000$ bike stays in last.

[Ghost-Rider]

I think theres to much competition to remain stock.

[rneal]

Originally posted by Pappy
and a year later, what has changed...lol

1) More and more complicated fuel injection systems. Only problem is that a year or two ago everyone talked about how great this "revolution" would be, since we would no longer have to rejet and the system would automatically compensate for motor mods and exhaust systems. Now instead of $2 jets we need $500 programmers and control systems. GREAT!!!!!

2) Even thinner frames that come in any color under the sun. Weight is important, but come on..... How is buying factory frames, one after another, a better and cheaper alternative than the after market frames that ruled the 90's?

3) Anyone else notice the rise in overall cost of ownership? What about the folks who buy these things for family fun? Having to rebuild the entire bike from the ground up annually is not a viable option in my opinion. My family has moved on to other things due to this.

4) I absolutely love $40 a gallon anti-freeze. Anyone want to some $100 a tube grease? Just testing the market.....

This sport has grown alright. The only problem is, it's not in the direction things were intended to go when the production rules were adopted. Instead of $15,000 250r's, all we see are $30,000 (insert brand of choice here). How is this any better for the end consumer?

What about the performance aspect of things? Since the overall cost of ownership has more than doubled, along with the overall cost of purchase, the overall cost to make a quad "race ready", and the overall cost to actually race, shouldn't we at least see double the performance right out of the box?

5) Marketing strategy that is on or above par with that of the auto industry.

When was the last time you saw a car released in segments over a 4 or 5 week period?

This leads me to an interesting question. I wonder what the profit margin is on an atv as opposed to that of a car? I bet Honda sees a higher profit margin on a 450r than it does on a base model civic......

I don't have any facts to support this, it is only a hunch.

[Outlaw 50]

Originally posted by gbcap
the reason it is stock is no one is stupid enough to make parts for a bike that is going to fail anyway. it would just be wasted r&d:p

What a meaningful contribution to the thread.........thanks kid!

[troyleepred719]

4) I absolutely love $40 a gallon anti-freeze. Anyone want to some $100 a tube grease? Just testing the market.....




I know the feeling, Engine Ice, 36 bucks for a friggin gallon, its rediculous.... the price paid jus tto be able to compete....





One thing that bugs me, is the whole Factory Scenario, if they have to put parts on it to compete, why dont they manufacture the parts instead of buying them, pu tthem on them and sell it, isnt that the reason there factory riders, in order to promote the product? Remember after the 250 rs, the hybrid ara, when they were racing Yzf426r, and xr motors in 250 r frames, whether yamaha or honda, every factory had one, hows that for promoting a product, racing something that has to be built by Joe schmo, because they couldnt find anything fast enough, until they came out with the rs and the yfz...